Support NeoGAF

[StuBurns]

In regards to the earlier discussion about 'asset perfect' ports:

As impressive as the game is, there's no way the Wii version had texture work that poor surely?

 

[M3d10n]

In regards to the earlier discussion about 'asset perfect' ports:

As impressive as the game is, there's no way the Wii version had texture work that poor surely?

... that's a PSP screenshot.

 

[tenchir]

In regards to the earlier discussion about 'asset perfect' ports:

As impressive as the game is, there's no way the Wii version had texture work that poor surely?

You forgot what's the spec of the wii. It has 88MB of RAM, 24 MB of that is the fast SRAM, while the rest of the 64MB is DDR3. The 3DS has 128 MB with 96MB useable(if OS does take up 32MB and doesn't shrink in the future like the PS3), it already has more RAM to play with.

edit: Eh, Didn't know that was a PSP screen. Well the PSP and PS2 has 32MB of RAM, so I have fairly sure that the 3DS is capable of better looking games than the Wii/Ps2. The GPU does have pixe/vertex shaders too, that really helps.

 

[M3d10n]

Again, that's a PSP screenshot, FFS. It's even exactly 480px × 272px and dithered.

 

[StuBurns]

... that's a PSP screenshot.

Oh, makes more sense.

Again, that's a PSP screenshot, FFS. It's even exactly 480px × 272px and dithered.

Chill out, someone posted it when posting the new 3DS game shots, and it seemed as being to display aliasing in response to a question. I apologize. Although as for the resolution, trying to eye ball 400×240 vs 480x272 I don't apologize for.

 

[M3d10n]

Chill out, someone posted it when posting the new 3DS game shots, and it seemed as being to display aliasing in response to a question. I apologize. Although as for the resolution, trying to eye ball 400×240 vs 480x272 I don't apologize for.

Sorry, but since the image was already quoted twice I felt like doing something before 10 other posters did the same.

 

[thirty]

I've been harping on 3ds screen res since launch. On it's own it's not terrible but when just about all of us carry around a smartphone that has resolution that absolutely destroys the 3ds and the games are free or a buck or 2, its a problem.

 

[Lazy8s]

3DS's per-pixel effects put it an a whole other league compared to PS2 and PSP. They're not even really close.

Still, 3DS visuals are underwhelming. The quality of each pixel matters a lot more on a handheld since it's held at a much closer distance from one's eyes. IMRs make the wrong trade-offs, preventing them from being competitive in image quality. Layering on a high number of low res effects versus rendering the underlying detail to a very high level may be cheaper, but it doesn't make for as impressive a visual show -- like comparing most mobile games to Inifinty Blade.

The high price of phones versus dedicated portables has nothing to do with the potential to pack in more powerful processors (in fact, phones are always at some level of disadvantage when it comes to heat/power budget versus gaming portables) and everything to do with phones being sold under a different business model and having to pack in extra radios and frequency/band support among other things. If people want to ignore the subsidization that high cost console games afford, then they might as well ignore the multiple hundred dollar subsidiization that mobile carrier contracts afford.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

You're just making this up.

"We'll just make this product because we have a surplus of production capacity".

right.


the "low resolution" screen is probably the factor that makes 3DS works as well as it does. Double the res and the 3DS might not be able to do stereoscopic 3D while maintaining the framerate.As is; in 3D mode, it uses battery much more aggressively and the framerate takes a hit.

He's not making it up
It does not cost hundreds of dollars more to add phone circuitry to an itouch, rendering it an iphone 4
It sells for so cheap because the R+D has already been done, the costs were recouped with the iphone 4 sales alone and can sell the itouch for a much lower price. (iphone 4 released june 14, sold 1.7M in THREE DAYS)
Meanwhile a comparable itouch is announced months later on september 8th

Show me a comparable device tech-wise that costs the same price. It's one of a kind in that respect, and notice it came after the iphone 4 sold millions of phones and made ungodly revenue, not at the same time. Iphone now makes over half of Apples profits.

 

[StuBurns]

Show me a comparable device tech-wise that costs the same price.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

2 years later
Bigger too.

 

[StuBurns]

3 years later
Bigger too.

It's launching the same year as the 3DS (or a year later depending on region), at the same launch price.

 

[Mr_Appleby]

Although as for the resolution, trying to eye ball 400×240 vs 480x272 I don't apologize for.

it's the pile of poo in the lower left corner that gives it away.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

It's launching the same year as the 3DS (or a year later depending on region), at the same launch price.

I was comparing it to the ipod touch 4th gen
Of course it shits all over the 3ds value wise.
even WITH the price cut.

 

[Lazy8s]

A mobile CPU or GPU core(s) costs only a few bucks. That's it.

That includes everything: silicon plus the royalty paid to the IP provider plus the original licensing fee divided over the lifetime of unit production.

Cost is not the factor(s) that limits how powerful these processors can be in a mobile device. The factors responsible would be power consumption and heat dissipation mainly.

 

[StuBurns]

even WITH the price cut.

I don't know about that. It's cheaper than a PSP, and it's far more capable.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

I don't know about that. It's cheaper than a PSP, and it's far more capable.

But for $80 more (%50 more) you get much more than %50 more power
And the psp is Years old, while the 3ds is less than a year.
I wasn't expecting a ps vita out of the 3ds, but I DEFINITELY wasn't expecting the dollars/performance ratio of the vita to be so good.
$250 is for the 3gs right? And $199 for standard?

 

[Auto_aim1]

But for $80 more (%50 more) you get much more than %50 more power
And the psp is Years old, while the 3ds is less than a year.
I wasn't expecting a ps vita out of the 3ds, but I DEFINITELY wasn't expecting the dollars/performance ratio of the vita to be so good.
$250 is for the 3gs right? And $199 for standard?

$250 standard and $300 for 3gs. They're using off-the-shelf parts so it helps in reducing the cost. 3DS was way overpriced when it launched, but $170 is the right price for it I guess.

 

[StuBurns]

I think the normal one is $250, and the 3G one is $300. Which at the old 3DS price seemed insane, but now the 3DS is at what I think is the correct price, it doesn't scream bargain to me personally.

I think Nintendo were taking the piss with that initial price, but it had so much profit built into it they could afford to slash the price, Sony won't be able to, when PSV has only done similar opening month numbers to 3DS, it will be stuck with it's price tag.

While I'd prefer Nintendo did a traditional 'generation' for once, in this case, as in Wii and DS, I think for them, they've certainly made the right decision making something so conservative.

EDIT: Beaten

 

[Argyle]

If Nintendo is using DMP's API, it should support fragment programs. DMP's API is a beast for the PICA200. I just have no idea if Nintendo made their own or are using DMP's.

No, I don't think this is true. I think you do not know what an API is - it stands for "application programming interface" and in this case it's basically how you talk to the hardware (if you're not banging on the registers yourself)...if Nintendo provided an API that exposed fragment program functionality to developers but the GPU did not support it in hardware - then either the fragment programs are emulated on the CPU or it's simply not going to work at all.

Also, the ARM11 is a member of the first family of ARM CPUs which has SIMD instructions and I seriously doubt any game currently on market is actually using them yet. It would allow devs to avoid using the vertex shaders for animating characters and thus reduce their cost in 3D.

Although this is true, it should be pointed out that the ARM11 is two processor generations (within the same architecture family) behind the state of the art (Cortex-A9)...it's pretty much old news, although who knows how well the code that we are seeing uses the SIMD instructions (and I don't think every ARM11/Cortex-A8/Cortex-A9 implementation has SIMD)...I would hope that people were at least porting their basic vector math libraries to use them, even on a rushed port.

As for the question in the OP, I have a feeling that it is between B and C, but that's just my opinion from looking at the games so far...time will tell.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Oh hey look! Direct feed shots! (and it looks just as good as the Wii version with added shadows!)

http://www.capcom.co.jp/monsterhunter/3G/shinka02.html

So much for the blurry scans excuse (oh hey and look! they're not bullshots either!)

So, what excuse do you have now to doubt me?

 

[blu]

I would hope that people were at least porting their basic vector math libraries to use them, even on a rushed port.

Depends. ARM11's SIMD is strictly integer-based, and while it could be of much use in the context of the original DS, that SIMD's interoperability with PICA's fp-based vertex shaders would not be trivial - whatever gets computed on the SIMD has to undergo fp conversion before it moves on to the GPU. Bottomline being, 'porting their basic vector math' might not cut it, for some definitions of 'basic vector math'.

 

[EloquentM]

Oh hey look! Direct feed shots! (and it looks just as good as the Wii version with added shadows!)

http://www.capcom.co.jp/monsterhunter/3G/shinka02.html



So much for the blurry scans excuse (oh hey and look! they're not bullshots either!)

So, what excuse do you have now to doubt me?

Most of those were posted on the last page =x

 

[Argyle]

Depends. ARM11's SIMD is strictly integer-based, and while it could be of much use in the context of the original DS, that SIMD's interoperability with PICA's fp-based vertex shaders would not be trivial - whatever gets computed on the SIMD has to undergo fp conversion before it moves on to the GPU. Bottomline being, 'porting their basic vector math' might not cut it, for some definitions of 'basic vector math'.

Holy shit, really? Wow. I guess you are supposed to do fixed point math on it? (Even if you did - you're right, you're gonna eat the conversion feeding it to the GPU...)

Please tell me the ARM11 in the 3DS has an FPU at least...

 

[blu]

Holy shit, really? Wow. I guess you are supposed to do fixed point math on it? (Even if you did - you're right, you're gonna eat the conversion feeding it to the GPU...)

Please tell me the ARM11 in the 3DS has an FPU at least...

ARM11 has an fpu and, AAMOF, it's actually better than A8's.

 

[pottuvoi]

Interesting, that image shows 2xAA.
Perhaps they have slightly jittered samples in 2D mode?

 

[PdotMichael]

Monster Hunter Tri G

Monster Hunter Tri

the texture quality is not Wii level (fruit crate)

 

[tsab]

Monster Hunter Tri G

the texture quality is not Wii level (fruit crate)

I don't see it. What do you mean?

 

[PdotMichael]

I don't see it. What do you mean?

texture resolutions and texture filtering

 

[Jonnyram]

I can't stop laughing at the people who say a 3DS game is visually enhanced over a Wii game.
That's like saying a Vita game is visually enhanced over a PS3 game.

 

[StuBurns]

It's not a perfect port certainly, it'll be interesting to see how close it comes though, Capcom are doing more with the system than anyone else, and this does look to be a step up for them too.

 

[Durante]

Textures are clearly downgraded. Geometry looks similar, but it's hard to tell for the characters.

I can't stop laughing at the people who say a 3DS game is visually enhanced over a Wii game.
That's like saying a Vita game is visually enhanced over a PS3 game.

Actually the Vita HSG looks better in some ways than the PS3 one. Of course it has much lower poly counts.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

The camera angle is slightly different between the two shots (the 3DS one is lower down and pulled further back, which would generally blur textures that don't have strong AF applied to them - BTW the Wii version doesn't use any AF either) and of course the Wii version is running at a higher rendering resolution so that may explain the slight differences between the two in terms of texture filtering for the basket of fruit on the left hand side.

The rest of the textures look identical (which it should do, since the 3DS has more RAM and VRAM than the Wii does) and the poly counts look the same too.

 

[SmokyDave]

I've been harping on 3ds screen res since launch. On it's own it's not terrible but when just about all of us carry around a smartphone that has resolution that absolutely destroys the 3ds and the games are free or a buck or 2, its a problem.

This. Text and UI elements look shite after getting used to my phone screen. The res is just far too low.

 

[Panajev2001a]

ARM11 has an fpu and, AAMOF, it's actually better than A8's.

Clock for clock... I assume it is pipelined unlike the FPU and the VFP you get in a standard Cortex-A8 design such as the A4 SoC. It's not like there is not a choice between Cortex-A8 and Cortex-A9... Snapdragon fills the niche quite well: pipeline FP/VFP unit + 128 bits NEON unit.

Oh well, not bad then .

 

[Alexios]

I can't stop laughing at the people who say a 3DS game is visually enhanced over a Wii game.
That's like saying a Vita game is visually enhanced over a PS3 game.

Even if it's downgraded in some ways (such as the fruit basket crate there, lol, if it's even true considering the angle differences) it's upgraded in a much more obvious manner, like the proper shadows, and 3D rendering, so, the joke's on you? Sacrifices may have to be made in areas like texture resolution (actually, I don't see why given the higher amounts of ram, but it's up to the developers) and geometry but the more modern shader solutions, even if still of fixed function, will certainly give developers the ability to provide overall visuals they just couldn't on Wii. Whether you prefer one or the other is of no importance, the fact is they can do things Wii can't, unlike your Vita/PS3 analogy.

 

[Basileus777]

Even if it's downgraded in some nearly insignificant ways (such as the fruit basket create there, lol!) it's upgraded in a much more obvious manner, like the proper shadows, so, the joke's on you?

Texture quality and polygon count are insignificant unlike the much more obvious shadows? Really?

 

[StuBurns]

Even if it's downgraded in some ways (such as the fruit basket crate there, lol, if it's even true considering the angle differences) it's upgraded in a much more obvious manner, like the proper shadows, and 3D rendering, so, the joke's on you? Sacrifices may have to be made in areas like texture resolution (actually, I don't see why given the higher amounts of ram, but it's up to the developers) and geometry but the more modern shader solutions, even if still of fixed function, will certainly give developers the ability to provide overall visuals they just couldn't on Wii. Whether you prefer one or the other is of no importance, the fact is they can do things Wii can't, unlike your Vita/PS3 analogy.

PSV has more RAM than the PS3. It too can do things the PS3 cannot.

 

[Alexios]

Texture quality and polygon count are insignificant unlike the much more obvious shadows? Really?

If people have to squint to see what element was downgraded, and pinpoint it at a freaking fruit basket, when they can see how it is upgraded at a glance (shadows, 3D), which is more significant? It's not like I said reducing a 2048x2048 texture down to a 512x512 one is fine for you to get that reaction. And it's not like every single Wii game used its absolute theoretical max amount of geometry and texture resolution for every element. At least some games could be ported with even fewer sacrifices, and extra effects. And again, it has more ram, so even texture downgrades have probably more to do with still inexperienced developers (on the platform, not in general) rather than a necessity.

 

[PdotMichael]

I would say, if you used the shader effects right, you can archive good looking games but the disadvantages (raw polygonpower, texturequality) will hit you every time.

 

[Brad Grenz]

The textures could be hugely upgraded over the Wii, but you'd never know it since the native resolution of the 3DS is so low. It can't resolve the same detail level with 1/3rd the number of pixels.

 

[tsab]

texture resolutions and texture filtering

Nah, I think the anisotropic/tri-linear hasn't kicked in. Maybe that's why the fruit crate looks blurry

 

[Brad Grenz]

Nah, I think the anisotropic/tri-linear hasn't kicked in. Maybe that's why the fruit crate looks blurry

How much detail would you expect in an area that is literally 25 pixels by 5 pixels on the 3DS?

If they fix the battery life, add a second analog disc and even add a larger top screen and make the touch screen capacitive, the 3DS will still be hamstrung by its low native resolution. All the fancy shaders and filtering in the world won't help.

 

[Lazy8s]

AA would help by increasing the definition, but it's an IMR.

Still, it's clearly capable of Wii level graphics.

 

[firelink]

No, I don't think this is true. I think you do not know what an API is - it stands for "application programming interface" and in this case it's basically how you talk to the hardware (if you're not banging on the registers yourself)...if Nintendo provided an API that exposed fragment program functionality to developers but the GPU did not support it in hardware - then either the fragment programs are emulated on the CPU or it's simply not going to work at all.



Although this is true, it should be pointed out that the ARM11 is two processor generations (within the same architecture family) behind the state of the art (Cortex-A9)...it's pretty much old news, although who knows how well the code that we are seeing uses the SIMD instructions (and I don't think every ARM11/Cortex-A8/Cortex-A9 implementation has SIMD)...I would hope that people were at least porting their basic vector math libraries to use them, even on a rushed port.

As for the question in the OP, I have a feeling that it is between B and C, but that's just my opinion from looking at the games so far...time will tell.

I know what an API is.

The PICA200 supports those kinds of things with their MAESTRO upgrade.

DMP provides a very easy to use API for their device. They constantly tweak and refine it to allow a bigger feature set. However, the 3DS has its CPU and the PICA200 on the same chip, which is a big strange considering ARM CPU chips are usually bundled with their own GPU if they are bundled at all, so it is an unnatural architecture. I am not sure if Nintendo developed their own development software, or simply borrowed tools from DMP. If Nintendo made their own, it might not have a rich feature set that DMP has worked years to allow the chip to run.

However, given recent screenshots of games coming out, it seems to me that there should be no concern.

 

[Lazy8s]

Err, ARM CPU cores are very frequently included on the same chip (System On a Chip) as the GPU, which most of the time isn't a Mali (ARM's brand of GPU) core.

See almost any modern mobile phone or console for reference.

 

[firelink]

Err, ARM CPU cores are very frequently included on the same chip (System On a Chip) as the GPU, which most of the time isn't a Mali (ARM's brand of GPU) core.

See almost any modern mobile phone or console for reference.

I was just referencing what iFixIt said when they did a teardown on the 3DS.

And what do you mean console? PS3 uses Cell and 360/Wii use a PowerPC based CPU. Has nothing to do with ARM.

 

[nincompoop]

The textures could be hugely upgraded over the Wii, but you'd never know it since the native resolution of the 3DS is so low. It can't resolve the same detail level with 1/3rd the number of pixels.

Yeah, I was gonna say that the screens were still too tiny to really draw any conclusions from them. Then I realized they were the 3DS's native resolution, haha.

 

[LeleSocho]

And what do you mean console? PS3 uses Cell and 360/Wii use a PowerPC based CPU. Has nothing to do with ARM.

Vita

 

[beril]

the texture quality is not Wii level (fruit crate)

That's really stretching it a bit thin. It could just be the mipmaping going a bit overboard because of the lower resolution and the slightly different angle. Or someone just happened to reduce the size of those textures a bit too much. It could also be the storage space, rather than the RAM and the graphical capabilities that sets the limit. MH3 is over 4GBs, I don't know if they make that big 3DS carts yet. Either way the geometry looks pretty much identical, which most people believe is the area where the 3DS is supposed to be lacking (and be dreamcast levels, which is clearly isn't).

Either way that's no bigger difference than you see in some PS3/360 cross platform games. I'm not saying it'll be 100% on par with the wii version, but at this point the differences look a bit too small to argue about.