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[LordOfChaos]

Very much. While GPU's still largely an unknown, CPU clocks are the most striking discrepancy - not only does the suggested CPU complex not outdo those Jaguars (and is far from the TX1), it could even have issues with wiiU up-ports, which could be CPU-limited now, depending on bad star alignment. Truly bizarre.

That's my biggest surprise. GPU being 70% the clock of a TX1 docked, 30% undocked, ok, fairly reasonable.

The CPU performance being cut fully in half from the TX1, even docked? That's a blow, and certainly does not mesh with "NX CPU >>>>> XBO CPU", and it's hard to even imagine a hypothetical configuration that would make that not seem like baloney. 8 A72s at 1GHz would not bridge such a gap at that clock speed. Even if he meant per-core it's not making sense, and I can only assume his statement was wrong.

 

[vern]

I mean, the bolded and then Nate's general estimates don't line up with Eurogamer if their 1:1 application to an X1 chip is correct. But all Eurogamer has as actual info is clocks, so... /shrug?

Multiplat stuff could run on anything though yea? Wii and DS both got COD...

Either I'm not understanding you or im not sure how what I'm saying has any bearing at all on the specs.

 

[NateDrake]

Docked or undocked?

Docked. Was told a few months back it would be close to 3x Wii U.

 

[Schnozberry]

Docked. Was told a few months back it would be close to 3x Wii U.

If they added 2 extra CPU cores and an additional GPU SM, that would line up with these rumors about the clocks.

 

[Vena]

Multiplat stuff could run on anything though yea? Wii and DS both got COD...

Either I'm not understanding you or im not sure how what I'm saying has any bearing at all on the specs.

Specs as hypothesized by Eurogamer just make it a stretch to see much of anything modern multiplat running on the mobile mode of this thing even with greatly reduced fidelity. Heck, even the docked mode would have issues with the way the CPU is currently laid out if its a quad-core A57.

Docked. Was told a few months back it would be close to 3x Wii U.

Core counts don't add up at current, but add 2 CPU Cores, and 2SM to 3SM and it all lines up. That puts us at "3x WiiU docked being conservative" with decent breathing room.

 

[Enduin]

Any word on whether there will be 'Dock Only' games?

Not that I recall, but such a move would run completely counter to the very core concept of the device.

 

[bomblord1]

Docked. Was told a few months back it would be close to 3x Wii U.

Thanks, so sounds like we should assume 3SM's because that's not possible with 2 at the given clocks.

 

[sfried]

The support could simply be so that they arent left behind if consumers take to the device. Ubisoft tends to be more aggressive with new console releases especially for Nintendo just in case it is a gold rush.

Well that's the argument I have: What reason do they believe this will take off? Unless there's one more particular thing we aren't being told.

I know for a fact that the aforementioned 3rd parties on their list, particularly Bethesda, Epic and From Software, would not even consider a release on the device, let alone any Nintendo platform (though Bethesda did release that one Star Trek game on DS, but only after it had established itself firmly with its mass market).

I think people need to realize that the architecture and speed of the CPU / GPU needed to match the concept. They couldn't just make this thing a BEAST while docked and nerf the hell out of it while portable.

These specs are indicative of Nintendo wanting to make sure the at home and on the go experience were somewhat on par. Digital Foundry did say that this also caters to making the logic of the game easier to account for when switching between the two modes.

There has to be more than just specs going on, though. Right now I'm just figuring out incentive.

 

[th3sicknness]

I think people need to realize that the architecture and speed of the CPU / GPU needed to match the concept. They couldn't just make this thing a BEAST while docked and nerf the hell out of it while portable.

These specs are indicative of Nintendo wanting to make sure the at home and on the go experience were somewhat on par. Digital Foundry did say that this also caters to making the logic of the game easier to account for when switching between the two modes.

 

[NateDrake]

Specs as hypothesized by Eurogamer just make it a stretch to see much of anything modern multiplat running on the mobile mode of this thing even with greatly reduced fidelity. Heck, even the docked mode would have issues with the way the CPU is currently laid out if its a quad-core A57.



Core counts don't add up at current, but add 2 CPU Cores, and 2SM to 3SM and it all lines up. That puts us at "3x WiiU docked being conservative" with decent breathing room.

Again, that's if the info is correct. With the way this cycle has been going, who knows. VB says 1TF (meaning 5x a Wii U) and things are lining up well below that.

I had heard Pascal over the summer, but Maxwell is in the final dev kits though EG is reporting today that the custom Maxwell may have absorbed several Pascal features.

 

[Stairouais]

Wasn't there a rumor saying that undocked games would be a different experience?

Like a kind of companion app for a docked game? (Please don't be that)

 

[bomblord1]

Again, that's if the info is correct. With the way this cycle has been going, who knows. VB says 1TF (meaning 10x a Wii U) and things are lining up well below that.

1TFLOP is 5.8x the wiiU

 

[Vena]

Again, that's if the info is correct. With the way this cycle has been going, who knows. VB says 1TF (meaning 10x a Wii U) and things are lining up well below that.

Well, supposedly, Euro's info comes from the documentation so I have no reason to really doubt it, it just has very little actual information in it aside from clockspeeds. VBs info is at complete odds with this info (even in FP16 mode the current numbers don't add up to 1TF), which was supposedly sourced as well.

So I have zero idea what the fuck is going on.

Only way to really re-align the VB info and the Eurogamer info is to as noted in that the core counts are wrong, because then you do end up with "over 1TF" in FP16 and you end up with ~3x the performance of a WiiU docked.

 

[wonderful103]

1TFLOP is 5.8x the wiiU

Perhaps he means 1TF as measured by FP16

 

[NateDrake]

1TFLOP is 5.8x the wiiU

True. PS4 is 10x the Wii U give or take a flop.

 

[LegendofLex]

Well that's the argument I have: What reason do they believe this will take off?

This is like asking why people thought the iPhone would take off, since it didn't have a keyboard, or why the NES would take off, since it didn't have a joystick.

Sometimes you can see how something is designed to anticipate a future that hasn't really arrived yet.

 

[th3sicknness]

Well that's the argument I have: What reason do they believe this will take off? Unless there's one more particular thing we aren't being told.

I know for a fact that the aforementioned 3rd parties on their list, particularly Bethesda, Epic and From Software, would not even consider a release on the device, let alone any Nintendo platform (though Bethesda did release that one Star Trek game on DS, but only after it had established itself firmly with its mass market).

I mean Nintendo could have made the tools better and Nvidia could have invested a lot into the API to help developers take full advantage of the hardware. There are several factors here.

There is a lot of power in being able to game at home and take the same experience with you. Developers must see potential in the concept and also see that the tools available to bring their creations over a lot better than with the Wii U.

Ubisoft basically said when they got a Wii U dev kit it wasnt apparent on what they should be doing and the concept just didnt click. With the Switch you know exactly what you should be doing there is no convoluted concept of asynchronous game play or multiple screens to be explained.

 

[bomblord1]

True. PS4 is 10x the Wii U give or take a flop.

Yup it's almost exact

 

[sfried]

This is like asking why people thought the iPhone would take off, since it didn't have a keyboard, or why the NES would take off, since it didn't have a joystick.

Sometimes you can see how something is designed to anticipate a future that hasn't really arrived yet.

And yet according to GAF, it is doomed to fail. "Hello repeat of the Wii U. What a joke, etc."

So answer me this: It can't just be the portable/mobile markets now, can't it? Moneyhat answer also doesn't make sense because they already spent it on Ubi. GAF says its doomed to fail but devs are still backing it, with no problems porting to boot?

"They're just riding on the early hype train, etc." but pretty much suspect some developers to not even bother if that were the case.

 

[Rodin]

1TFLOP is 5.8x the wiiU

That was fp16 anyway, but the article was really poorly written and mixed a lot of stuff into a nonsensical argument.

 

[vern]

Specs as hypothesized by Eurogamer just make it a stretch to see much of anything modern multiplat running on the mobile mode of this thing even with greatly reduced fidelity. Heck, even the docked mode would have issues with the way the CPU is currently laid out if its a quad-core A57.

Core counts don't add up at current, but add 2 CPU Cores, and 2SM to 3SM and it all lines up. That puts us at "3x WiiU docked being conservative" with decent breathing room.

Like I said I don't know how well they run, but reduced fidelity or whatever they can still run can they not? Wii U even got a COD game didn't it? It's going to be getting some fairly standard 3rd party games in the first year unless they all suddenly get cancelled lol. Moving forward long term, who knows?

*cod in these last posts is strictly an example and not one of the games I know about.

 

[Vena]

Like I said I don't know how well they run, but reduced fidelity or whatever they can still run can they not? Wii U even got a COD game didn't it? It's going to be getting some fairly standard 3rd party games in the first year unless they all suddenly get cancelled lol. Moving forward long term, who knows?

*cod in these last posts is strictly an example and not one of the games I know about.

WiiU's CoD wasn't a PS4/X1 downport. It was a X360/PS3 side-port. Different development.

I don't actually doubt you, we already have other info on DS3 running on this thing, what I don't quite marry is how said information gels with Eurogamer's extrapolation based on clocks.

 

[NateDrake]

Like I said I don't know how well they run, but reduced fidelity or whatever they can still run can they not? Wii U even got a COD game didn't it? It's going to be getting some fairly standard 3rd party games in the first year unless they all suddenly get cancelled lol. Moving forward long term, who knows?

*cod in these last posts is strictly an example and not one of the games I know about.

Depends the engine the game is using. Switch is compatible with many modern engines. From a technical standpoint, there will be little preventing games from appearing on Switch. Compromises will be made and things will be scaled down.

 

[GhostTrick]

Again, that's if the info is correct. With the way this cycle has been going, who knows. VB says 1TF (meaning 5x a Wii U) and things are lining up well below that.

I had heard Pascal over the summer, but Maxwell is in the final dev kits though EG is reporting today that the custom Maxwell may have absorbed several Pascal features.

Did you heard about the number of cuda cores ?
Also, VB's article is likely just based on X1 specs and Nvidia's 1TF being fp16.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Regardless of what the hell is going on with the specs and the fact that there's an active fan, all of the rumors regarding third party support and how third parties are treating the device have been positive.

Really, for me, specs only matter because I want to see as much third party support as possible. So if that's all still coming even with these weird ass specs, then that's fine by me.

 

[vern]

WiiU's CoD wasn't a PS4/X1 downport. It was a X360/PS3 side-port. Different development.

I don't actually doubt you, we already have other info on DS3 running on this thing, what I don't quite marry is how said information gels with Eurogamer's extrapolation based on clocks.

Well sure, I didn't say they are gonna be the same. I just said the games exist. Again, no idea how they run at all. They could be built ground up just for switch if what you are saying and "porting" is not possible. As I've always said here, I'm not a tech guy.

 

[Vena]

Did you heard about the number of cuda cores ?
Also, VB's article is likely just based on X1 specs and Nvidia's 1TF being fp16.

Don't think anyone knows cores specifically right now.

As was suggested, adding two cores to the CPU and 1SM to the GPU does end up aligning a lot of info (given these clocks) nicely but that's only a guess.

 

[NateDrake]

Did you heard about the number of cuda cores ?
Also, VB's article is likely just based on X1 specs and Nvidia's 1TF being fp16.

I didn't hear anything about the cuda cores.

 

[th3sicknness]

And yet according to GAF, it is doomed to fail. "Hello repeat of the Wii U. What a joke, etc."

So answer me this: It can't just be the portable/mobile markets now, can't it? Moneyhat answer also doesn't make sense because they already spent it on Ubi. GAF says its doomed to fail but devs are still backing it, with no problems porting to boot?

"They're just riding on the early hype train, etc." but pretty much suspect some developers to not even bother if that were the case.

I think the reason anyone is saying it is doomed to fail is because the performance of the alleged leaks are well below the X1 and PS4. People attribute the Wii U's failure to performance only when in reality it failed because of several things including performance.

I dont think anyone thought it would eclipse the X1 but no one thought it would be less than half of what the X1 performed at (if the leaks are accurate).

 

[oatmeal]

Hahaha, fucking Nintendo.

Three gen old tech in their new shit.

Goddammit. Can I just have ONE system that has technology from this decade? Christ.

 

[sfried]

Regardless of what the hell is going on with the specs and the fact that there's an active fan, all of the rumors regarding third party support and how third parties are treating the device have been positive.

This is the thing I've been trying to figure out.

If the specs are that low, why would it even be running UE4 in the first place? In fact, Epic would be the first one to find some stupid excuse that it couldn't run it. Something else is going on...

 

[killroy87]

I love how we go through this with every Nintendo console since the Wii, and yet it always seems to surprise us. And then, somehow, the games end up being worthwhile.

 

[GhostTrick]

I didn't hear anything about the cuda cores.

Too bad.

Don't think anyone knows cores specifically right now.

As was suggested, adding two cores to the CPU and 1SM to the GPU does end up aligning a lot of info (given these clocks) nicely but that's only a guess.

There's two possibilities. One likely and one less likely.
The likely one is Nintendo wanted the fan here to keep the device cold. Not warm, but cold. The clocks also happens to make easier for them to reach a 3 hours to 5 hours battery life with a cheap battery. Basically, Nintendo cheaping out.

The less likely but also interesting one is that the device is actively cooled and that it's a bit weird for such a device, even on the go, to be actively cooled with such conservative clocks. That could mean 3 to 4SM. But I doubt it. I guess we'll have to wait for someone to XRay the chips again.

This is the thing I've been trying to figure out.

If the specs are that low, why would it even be running UE4 in the first place? In fact, Epic would be the first one to find some stupid excuse that it couldn't run it. Something else is going on...

Because they are enough to run UE4.

 

[Interfectum]

Depends the engine the game is using. Switch is compatible with many modern engines. From a technical standpoint, there will be little preventing games from appearing on Switch. Compromises will be made and things will be scaled down.

I can't imagine what some of the recent AAA games would look like using Switch specs on a 1080p TV. "Compromises" seems to be putting it lightly.

 

[NateDrake]

This is the thing I've been trying to figure out.

If the specs are that low, why would it even be running UE4 in the first place? In fact, Epic would be the first one to find some stupid excuse that it couldn't run it. Something else is going on...

UE4 is a highly scalable engine.

 

[bomblord1]

Hahaha, fucking Nintendo.

Three gen old tech in their new shit.

Goddammit. Can I just have ONE system that has technology from this decade? Christ.

Three? At worst this is 1 generation old considering the newer generation isn't out yet in any purchasable devices.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Docked. Was told a few months back it would be close to 3x Wii U.

If they added 2 extra CPU cores and an additional GPU SM, that would line up with these rumors about the clocks.

Not sure you need to do any funky math to get there.

Remember the Wii U was on RV770/the AMD 4000 series. Switch is on Maxwell 2, which will do far more per core per clock. 350Gflops vs 176, but on Maxwell 2, sounds pretty close to 3x Wii U already.

 

[James Scott]

I wonder if it's a mistake marketing the Switch as a console.
It is for all for all intents and purposes it's a handheld. All the tech is inside a portable shell.
For a portable, going from 3DS's 240p resolution to 720p is an astronomical leap. Going from Wii U's 720p-1080p to 1080p isn't.

 

[ElTorro]

It's almost a law of nature that in these threads with every page we try to bargain for slightly better specs than we thought plausible the page before. In the end, everybody has silently accepted speculative specs on the upper end of the spectrum of what could maybe be possible. What we'll get in the end usually ends up being on the other end of that spectrum.

As I've written a few pages before, I agree with you that we should not uncritically assume performance figures based on the maximum clock speeds of Nvidia's chips, given that the Switch as a portable system will have to balance performance with battery life. And even if the SoC will run at max speed when docked, games will have to be made such that they are compatible to the what the device can provide in mobile mode.

Devices like an iPad consume ~9-12W under full load, and that includes the display. Four 16nm-A57 cores at 2Ghz by themselves already consume 5,5W under full load. Add to that the power consumption of GPU, display, and all the rest, and it looks wise to manage expectations a bit.

.

 

[wonderful103]

Hahaha, fucking Nintendo.

Three gen old tech in their new shit.

Goddammit. Can I just have ONE system that has technology from this decade? Christ.

I wonder what you'd say about the Jaguar CPU in the current crop of "high" performance consoles. It borrows elements from (iirc) the AMD K6 (1999) and K8 (2003).

ARM and Maxwell certainly aren't from this decade though. Never change, GAF.

 

[calc84maniac]

I wonder if it's a mistake marketing the Switch as a console.
It is for all for all intents and purposes it's a handheld. All the tech is inside a portable shell.
For a portable, going from 3DS's 240p resolution to 720p is an astronomical leap. Going from Wii U's 720p-1080p to 1080p isn't.

Suddenly the Wii U is not a console?

 

[Skittzo0413]

Hahaha, fucking Nintendo.

Three gen old tech in their new shit.

Goddammit. Can I just have ONE system that has technology from this decade? Christ.

The Maxwell based TX1 was new last year in the Shield TV. This is newer tech than anything in PS4 or XB1. Just heavily downclocked to lower performance levels.

This is the thing I've been trying to figure out.

If the specs are that low, why would it even be running UE4 in the first place? In fact, Epic would be the first one to find some stupid excuse that it couldn't run it. Something else is going on...

UE4 runs on low end phones and tablets. The fact that these developers are finding it worthwhile to port their games simply makes me hopeful that they see a market there. Power doesn't have all that much to do with ports after all- audience, install base and RoI are all much much more important.

 

[Interfectum]

This is the thing I've been trying to figure out.

If the specs are that low, why would it even be running UE4 in the first place? In fact, Epic would be the first one to find some stupid excuse that it couldn't run it. Something else is going on...

There are mobile games that use UE4.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I wonder if it's a mistake marketing the Switch as a console.
It is for all for all intents and purposes it's a handheld. All the tech is inside a portable shell.
For a portable, going from 3DS's 240p resolution to 720p is an astronomical leap. Going from Wii U's 720p-1080p to 1080p isn't.

Yup. It's a groundbreaking upgrade from a 3DS. It's a home console that still has the 7th gen in its rearview mirror.

Marketing should be mobile first, and also you can play your mobile games on a TV at higher resolution at home.

 

[Vena]

Hahaha, fucking Nintendo.

Three gen old tech in their new shit.

Goddammit. Can I just have ONE system that has technology from this decade? Christ.

How did you get three gens? Like this is a year old chip.

Not sure you need to do any funky math to get there.

Remember the Wii U was on RV770/the AMD 4000 series. Switch is on Maxwell 2, which will do far more per core per clock. 350Gflops vs 176, but on Maxwell 2, sounds pretty close to 3x Wii U already.

That seems far too nuanced a way to get to the numbers than what people will generally say/do when leaking information, but its certainly another possibility!

 

[James Scott]

I remember a few days ago when i heard someone say Switch's specs are 5x Wii Us and that I didn't think that was right and we should expect 3x at most. I guess I was right about that...I think?

Suddenly the Wii U is not a console?

I'm saying that portable mode is super impressive when compared to 3DS.
Console/docked mode is still a step up from Wii U, but not as impressive.

 

[Rodin]

Not sure you need to do any funky math to get there.

Remember the Wii U was on RV770/the AMD 4000 series. Switch is on Maxwell 2, which will do far more per core per clock. 350Gflops vs 176, but on Maxwell 2, sounds pretty close to 3x Wii U already.

393 is closer to 400 than 350.

Hahaha, fucking Nintendo.

Three gen old tech in their new shit.

Goddammit. Can I just have ONE system that has technology from this decade? Christ.

We already had some engineers talking about 2 gens behind, now we got to 3. Will we reach portable NES levels in the next hours?

Spoiler

/s

 

[Skittzo0413]

I remember a few days ago when i heard someone say Switch's specs are 5x Wii Us and that I didn't think that was right and we should expect 3x at most. I guess I was right about that...I think?

I think it may have been me. I was saying- accounting for more modern architecture, CPU outperforming PS4/XB1, and 512GFLOPS GPU at the lowest (when docked)- it would be a safe bet to call this 5x stronger than a Wii U.

It seems I was wrong (or DF is using the wrong specs to base their assumptions on, but I'm starting to lose hope on that).

 

[sfried]

UE4 runs on low end phones and tablets. The fact that these developers are finding it worthwhile to port their games simply makes me hopeful that they see a market there. Power doesn't have all that much to do with ports after all- audience, install base and RoI are all much much more important.

Why do these developers think it will have such a huge install base?...Actually, let me rephrase that:

Why do they think it will have the right install base for them? Especially if the Wii and "casual market" have left such a bad taste in their mouth?

 

[LordOfChaos]

393 is closer to 400 than 350 anyway

Ah, true, I was ballparking off 150 undocked * 2.5 rather than the proper route of 256 cores * 768 MHz * 2ops per hz per core, and rather than using 157Gflops undocked