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[EDarkness]

If the GC had a dvd drive and used regular sized discs, who knows how well Nintendo would have done and how much more third party support they would have have. I feel as if they would be close to xbox sales or even surpass them.

Though lack of dvd drive definitely lowered the price.

The thing is, we don't know that. The fact is the GC couldn't get folks to buy in even at some insanely cheap price. People want value more than anything and if that value is there, they'll pay. It's really as simple as that. If they can get the balance of good features, games, and price then they'll have a winner. I remember people saying that the Wii was too expensive for the price, but lots of people were more than happy to pay for that because the value was there. This will be true for the NS as will be true for every electronics device ever.

I'm not saying that price doesn't matter, but people put more weight in the value of a thing before the price.

 

[ShadowFox08]

So you're going to be able to buy an Xbox One S or PS4 for less than a Switch?

Nintendo has always been about putting value in their consoles, while MS and Sony has always just undercuts the competition and isn't afraid to take the risk of selling at a loss while maximizing power.

I admire that Nintendo doesn't just give out free games like their competition, and values their games and hardware. But its a double edge sword really. Sometimes they don't price drop for years when they really really should *ahem wii u and some games.* It's almost unfair in a way, because it gives Sony and MS a significant advantage, and Nintendo refuses to do it.

 

[th3sicknness]

Yep its more about the experience/ecosystem you are buying into than pure specs,though price is important too. They cant target families at more than $250

Apple targets families at a price of 599+ every year lol...And they seem to be OK with it.

 

[z0m3le]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Tegra x1 was shrunk to 16nm to get it off the 20nm process. Pascal is just 3rd generation maxwell guys, it wasn't even part of Nvidia's 2014 road map until late in the year when they realized they would have to delay Volta.

 

[Luigiv]

As do joy cons and a dock.

And 16GB extra storage and a battery.

 

[Astral Dog]

Apple targets families at a price of 599+ every year lol...And they seem to be OK with it.

You know what imean,Apple is not Nintendo

 

[Instro]

Shield TV doesn't have a built-in 720p multi-touch screen. Adds quite a bit to the price tag.

That's the cheapest possible screen you could source for this kind of product. Unless something has changed, it looks like a standard LCD touchscreen display, only 720p, not 3D, not OLED, etc.

Keep in mind Nvidia would be selling this thing a healthy profit, which is not something Nintendo needs to do as a software driven company.

As do joy cons and a dock.

Moot point as the Shield comes with a full sized controller, and a remote as well.

 

[Astral Dog]

That's the cheapest possible screen you could source for this kind of product. Unless something has changed, it looks like a standard LCD touchscreen display, only 720p, not 3D, not OLED, etc.

Keep in mind Nvidia would be selling this thing a healthy profit, which is not something Nintendo needs to do as a software driven company.



Moot point as the Shield comes with a full sized controller, and a remote as well.

We dont know how much it costs to produce or how much profit they gain,people said the Wii U should be cheap as hell for what it was but the reality is that is a quite expensive system to manufacture wich is one reason they dont just cut the price

 

[UnemployedVillain]

So you're going to be able to buy an Xbox One S or PS4 for less than a Switch?

People need to stop this nonsense. You can buy a desktop PC for cheaper than a laptop too. Either you guys are feigning ignorance or don't realize how portability affects costs

 

[Vampirolol]

I bet this still won't play DVDs

PS1-era tech!

We can be 10000000% sure about that.

 

[random25]

That's the cheapest possible screen you could source for this kind of product. Unless something has changed, it looks like a standard LCD touchscreen display, only 720p, not 3D, not OLED, etc.

Keep in mind Nvidia would be selling this thing a healthy profit, which is not something Nintendo needs to do as a software driven company.



Moot point as the Shield comes with a full sized controller, and a remote as well.

LCD display with a touch screen module is easily a $10 additional cost to the BOM. You can bring it down depending on the number of orders, but that's still a pretty huge consideration. Add to that the batteries for the Switch and 2 Joycons, additional casing designs considering you have at least 4 separate devices on the Switch, other peripherals like NFC, infrared, and whatever stuff we don't know about yet, and misc. stuff included like cables and other external parts, and you're looking at something that could be $15-$20 more expensive by BOM alone.

Then people also not consider the manpower side of things that also adds to the cost of the product development, like the firmware and software engineering loaded into the system, the mechanical and electrical design leading up to the final build, the manufacturing cost and QA/QC, and post-sales support. Those things will not be same even if side-by-side the two products from two different companies are the same specs-wise.

 

[Rodin]

It's a 6.2" ips, i don't believe it's going to be 10$. At least twice as much.

 

[ShadowFox08]

We dont know how much it costs to produce or how much profit they gain,people said the Wii U should be cheap as hell for what it was but the reality is that is a quite expensive system to manufacture wich is one reason they dont just cut the price

Well besides the gamepad, its probably the outdated parts that are no longer made or being used now that could make it so expensive. It's a shame wii u's price wasn't lowered to 250 in its last 2 years. It's absolutely pathetic after 4 years it was only a $50 price drop. Nintendo has only themselves to blame on that.

The thing is, we don't know that. The fact is the GC couldn't get folks to buy in even at some insanely cheap price. People want value more than anything and if that value is there, they'll pay. It's really as simple as that. If they can get the balance of good features, games, and price then they'll have a winner. I remember people saying that the Wii was too expensive for the price, but lots of people were more than happy to pay for that because the value was there. This will be true for the NS as will be true for every electronics device ever.

I'm not saying that price doesn't matter, but people put more weight in the value of a thing before the price.

I really think the lack of dvd playback didn't make the gamecube sell nearly as much as it could have, and would have given it less of a stigma with the lunchbox handle thing. Having a DVD player with your console built in back then was a big thing.

Apple targets families at a price of 599+ every year lol...And they seem to be OK with it.

Apple brand is definitely over priced but they have less competition and people like linux and unix. Not to mention Apple's products doesn't just stop at their own OS, computers, and software, but mobile phones too. Apple brand is most definitely a house hold name now. Much more than Nintendo.\

 

[ShadowFox08]

LCD display with a touch screen module is easily a $10 additional cost to the BOM. You can bring it down depending on the number of orders, but that's still a pretty huge consideration. Add to that the batteries for the Switch and 2 Joycons, additional casing designs considering you have at least 4 separate devices on the Switch, other peripherals like NFC, infrared, and whatever stuff we don't know about yet, and misc. stuff included like cables and other external parts, and you're looking at something that could be $15-$20 more expensive by BOM alone.

Then people also not consider the manpower side of things that also adds to the cost of the product development, like the firmware and software engineering loaded into the system, the mechanical and electrical design leading up to the final build, the manufacturing cost and QA/QC, and post-sales support. Those things will not be same even if side-by-side the two products from two different companies are the same specs-wise.

That's true. R&D can be crazy expensive and they may need to make it up by jacking up the costs a bit for the actual product. Some companies can get away with it better with more profits and be mad successful like apple though.. or biopharma.

It's crazy when you stop and realize how fragile and volatile the gaming industry is though. The job stability of being a developer working crazy salary hours with no overtime pay to making a game that could make or break your company if you don't get enough sales to make a profit(especially if it isn't a big company). It's absolutely crazy to think how many smaller development companies have closed down or merged in the past 10 years due to high development costs of HD games, and it keeps getting more expensive. Almost all the gaming companies that are here today that have been here for a while are here because they've made profit from selling games. It's mainly the big AAA companies and publishers that are left. The gaming industry is absolutely bleeding right now, and its easier to be safe and stick to a formula and make sequels to compete for marketshare and get $$$ then going something completely off kilter.

It's kind of sad really, even though from a consumer perspective this is THE BEST time to be one.. So many good deals, high quality games, and affordable games and consoles when you adjust inflation for the past 25 years or so.

 

[AlStrong]

IIRC, the Switch already have more RAM.

Just swap out the 6 Gbit density chips with 8Gbit.

 

[EDarkness]

I really think the lack of dvd playback didn't make the gamecube sell nearly as much as it could have, and would have given it less of a stigma with the lunchbox handle thing. Having a DVD player with your console built in back then was a big thing.

I think that had something to do with it, but it also lost the mindshare war back then. Couldn't get GTA because it was too "kiddie" and looked like a lunchbox. It wasn't hip or interesting to the average gamer and Nintendo being for kids didn't help either. I think history has been kinder to the Cube after it was all said and done, but back then it got dogged on a regular basis. I remember those kiddie GC threads back on Gaming Age back in the day. I think Nintendo just didn't read what things were going to be important back then. Online play, DVD playing, a "maturing" of the gaming audience, and the overall design of the system itself. They're still trying to fight the "kiddie" image even now.

 

[KingSnake]

So we might have an explanation why still Maxwell for Switch (seeing how the new Shield uses still TX1), still remains to be seen what's with the low clocks. Especially since the new Shield is even smaller and I think it's quite close to Switch's size. That kind of eliminates the concern about heating unless Nintendo was forced to improvise something inside Switch.

 

[blu]

So we might have an explanation why still Maxwell for Switch (seeing how the new Shield uses still TX1), still remains to be seen what's with the low clocks. Especially since the new Shield is even smaller and I think it's quite close to Switch's size. That kind of eliminates the concern about heating unless Nintendo was forced to improvise something inside Switch.

I'm willing to bet an avatar that new Shield TV will still have a fan.

 

[KingSnake]

I'm willing to bet an avatar that new Shield TV will still have a fan.

For sure. But so has the Switch. And in handheld mode, at the rumoured clock it shouldn't really get even close to hot.

 

[Lom1lo]

Well Im really Happy that the new shield uses the x1. It means nintendo couldnt get anything better from Nvidia. Now I hope they did more than a downclock. By the way is it safe to assume that the switch has 256 cuda cores ?

 

[Hermii]

Well Im really Happy that the new shield uses the x1. It means nintendo couldnt get anything better from Nvidia. Now I hope they did more than a downclock. By the way is it safe to assume that the switch has 256 cuda cores ?

Thats the safest assumption. More would be a pleasant surprise.

 

[Vic]

I should remind people that the GC was pretty cheap and it didn't mean anything. What matters is games and value. If they can hit that point at a price people are happy with, then it'll sell. Doesn't matter if it's $200 or $350. That's the note they have to hit next week. Why should we buy this system...or better yet...why should we care? The messaging is by far the most important.

Yes, the games & the experience does matter but if Nintendo are indeed aiming to sell the console at a mass-market price, 199$ does sounds better than 249$

Well Im really Happy that the new shield uses the x1. It means nintendo couldnt get anything better from Nvidia. Now I hope they did more than a downclock. By the way is it safe to assume that the switch has 256 cuda cores ?

I'm not sure how you've reached this conclusion. The Switch SoC will be a custom architecture. We have no clue about the configuration that has been done by Nintendo and Nvidia.

 

[AniHawk]

I think it'll be $249 for the base model at launch, but a $199 price tag will definitely help to accelerate the growth of the install base. $299 would be a huge mistake.

$299.99 with a game seems pretty feasible for me with the numbers they're forecasting. plus you can play last gen games like the ps4 version of dragon quest xi, except on the go. that's bound to get people excited.

 

[EDarkness]

Yes, the games & the experience does matter but if Nintendo are indeed aiming to sell the console at a mass-market price, 199$ does sounds better than 249$

Of course, but my point is that $199 does not guarantee success, just like $249/$299 doesn't mean failure. The problem is too complicated for it to be boiled down to that level of simplicity.

 

[KingSnake]

Of course, but my point is that $199 does not guarantee success, just like $249/$299 doesn't mean failure. The problem is too complicated for it to be boiled down to that level of simplicity.

It's not black and white, but one can't ignore that there are some limits drawn by the market, like the current prices of PS4 and Xbone or the fact that 3ds had to cut down its price shortly after release. Actually, if you look at it the prices on both markets, handheld and console are pretty close now. There isn't that much room for manoeuvre.

 

[Lom1lo]

I'm not sure how you've reached this conclusion. The Switch SoC will be a custom architecture. We have no clue about the configuration that has been done by Nintendo and Nvidia.

Well, if nvidia uses the same chip for their newest product, I think its a legit conclusion ?

Im talking about the baseline, not the overall power level.

 

[EDarkness]

It's not black and white, but one can't ignore that there are some limits drawn by the market, like the current prices of PS4 and Xbone or the fact that 3ds had to cut down its price shortly after release. Actually, if you look at it the prices on both markets, handheld and console are pretty close now. There isn't that much room for manoeuvre.

That's true. It'll be interesting to see which way they decide to go with this. I like the idea of $299 with a pack-in game. That seems like a reasonable proposition based on what we know. Maybe folks will feel even better once we know more about it's features and games on the way. Building some level of confidence would go a long way in improving the systems value to the average gamer.

 

[KingSnake]

That's true. It'll be interesting to see which way they decide to go with this. I like the idea of $299 with a pack-in game. That seems like a reasonable proposition based on what we know. Maybe folks will feel even better once we know more about it's features and games on the way. Building some level of confidence would go a long way in improving the systems value to the average gamer.

That's also true. For example I'm pretty sure that a launch with Zelda and Mario 3d day one and without any major fuck-up in terms of OS, features, accounts etc. would totally leave the price in the second plan.

 

[Vic]

$299.99 with a game seems pretty feasible for me with the numbers they're forecasting. plus you can play last gen games like the ps4 version of dragon quest xi, except on the go. that's bound to get people excited.

Nintendo was very discontent to sell the Wii U at $299 and it doesn't sound like they want to repeat that mistake.

Of course, but my point is that $199 does not guarantee success, just like $249/$299 doesn't mean failure. The problem is too complicated for it to be boiled down to that level of simplicity.

I don't disagree with you, but it is indeed a part of the equation. To the mass market, $199 will sound more appealing than $249. But again, I do believe that $249 will be the launch price for the system.

Well, if nvidia uses the same chip for their newest product, I think its a legit conclusion ?

Im talking about the baseline, not the overall power level.

Oh, ok. I misunderstood you.

 

[AzaK]

You know what would be funny? If the new Shield uses the chips that Nvidia designed for Switch. Maybe at normal clocks as it's not portable.

That would be hilarious

 

[GaryD]

If it is so closely related I wonder if the switch can run Android TV with their own launcher.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

You know what would be funny? If the new Shield uses the chips that Nvidia designed for Switch. Maybe at normal clocks as it's not portable.

There's no chance of that happening

 

[Eolz]

Why are we debating the price again here when there was a whole thread about it?
250$ for the main unit makes perfectly sense on multiple levels, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[E-phonk]

If it is so closely related I wonder if the switch can run Android TV with their own launcher.

In theory android should run on switch. They won't do it for security reasons, but some of the earliest rumours we got about NX was that nintendo was experimenting with android.

Nintendo officially denied the rumour, although I still think there's a chance their OS is based on a modified version of AOSP or a very similar compatible linux kernel with even the HAL layer on top. This would instantly give their OS a stable base of drivers, wifi, I/O, audio, touch etc and would make porting media frameworks and engines a lot easier.
Ofcourse they would implement their own DRM and skip all the upper layers of AOSP and implement their own interface, but at the base/kernel level it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Hermii]

From the discussion thread

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but the new Shield is getting the following support from Ubi-Soft: For Honor, Watch Dogs 2, and AC: Syndicate. Also, The Witness, Tomb Raider, and Shadowgun Legends will be available at launch.

Considering the similar architecture with the Switch, it seems like a strong possibility that at least some of those could be Switch-bound, no?

Link:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.digi...-tv-at-ces-2017/amp/?client=ms-android-google

That would rule out ram bandwidth being an issue for ports at least wouldn't it? What are the specs of the Shield?

Edit: Nothing to see here.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

From the discussion thread

That would rule out ram bandwidth being an issue for ports at least wouldn't it? What are the specs of the Shield?

It's an X1 still. The Ubisoft games announced were for Nvidia's Geforce Now streaming platform.

 

[Dehnus]

In theory android should run on switch. They won't do it for security reasons, but some of the earliest rumours we got about NX was that nintendo was experimenting with android.

Nintendo officially denied the rumour, although I still think there's a chance their OS is based on a modified version of AOSP or a very similar compatible linux kernel with even the HAL layer on top. This would instantly give their OS a stable base of drivers, wifi, I/O, audio, touch etc and would make porting media frameworks and engines a lot easier.
Ofcourse they would implement their own DRM and skip all the upper layers of AOSP and implement their own interface, but at the base/kernel level it wouldn't surprise me.

LEt's hope not, it would be an instant "Cancel Preorder!" for me. Android = Google overlords! For me. And if you want it.. fine.. but I don't. I want a simple console that just works, Not some kind of "install games in 5 minutes" crap with my information send to Google or MS.

 

[Xdrive05]

Does the fact that the new Shield still uses an X1 tell us anything about the likelihood of 28nm vs 20nm for the Switch's GPU? An X1 variant for the Switch seems completely certain now. Hoping this means Nvidia is still cranking out chips on 20nm, and then are likely using the same for their Switch custom X1.

 

[Refyref]

LEt's hope not, it would be an instant "Cancel Preorder!" for me. Android = Google overlords! For me. And if you want it.. fine.. but I don't. I want a simple console that just works, Not some kind of "install games in 5 minutes" crap with my information send to Google or MS.

That's not what using AOSP would mean, as it's just the operating system codebase. You can create an operating system from Android source code, deploy, and use it without ever contacting Google.


That being said, I doubt the Switch's OS is based on AOSP, as there's not really any code there that would be useful for a gaming OS over more basic UNIX codebases.

 

[ggx2ac]

Can now rule out that speculation when someone posted a video that a guy was speculating that a Jetson TP1 dev-kit would appear at CES because it apparently has to do with the Switch devkits when that guy didn't know Pascal and Maxwell weren't significantly different in FLOPS ratio. (He claimed the Switch was running as powerful as an TX1 at lower clocks because of Pascal, not because of other things like more SMs and a newer CPU.)

So since the new Shield TV that was shown at CES seems more like a repackaged version of the previous one, this doesn't help us get ideas if Nintendo had went with new tech.

I guess we'll be debating for the next few pages on whether that new Shield TV is using a 20nm or 16nm to infer the nodes in the Switch.

 

[protomouse]

Licensing is probably the biggest barrier for anything Linux-based.

 

[ggx2ac]

Does the fact that the new Shield still uses an X1 tell us anything about the likelihood of 28nm vs 20nm for the Switch's GPU? An X1 variant for the Switch seems completely certain now. Hoping this means Nvidia is still cranking out chips on 20nm, and then are likely using the same for their Switch custom X1.

No. Again, Nintendo choosing 28nm instead of 20nm isn't bad because the gains for 20nm aren't significant. TSMC has had new generations of 28nm nodes that improved on power consumption. Nintendo opting for a 28nmHPC+ instead of a 20nm as stated by Thraktor would be very close in power consumption that the difference is negligible.

If instead Nintendo went with a 16nm node, that would be a surprise but I wouldn't get my hopes up about newer CPUs or more CUDA cores.

 

[Xdrive05]

No. Again, Nintendo choosing 28nm instead of 20nm isn't bad because the gains for 20nm aren't significant. TSMC has had new generations of 28nm nodes that improved on power consumption. Nintendo opting for a 28nmHPC+ instead of a 20nm as stated by Thraktor would be very close in power consumption that the difference is negligible.

If instead Nintendo went with a 16nm node, that would be a surprise but I wouldn't get my hopes up about newer CPUs or more CUDA cores.

Thanks! Does 28nm provide any benefits over 20nm? I'm guessing cost? Also hoping they use a custom cache/EDRAM solution, which, who knows, might need 28nm? Finally, does this still allow the possibility of the 128bit memory controller folks were talking about, or does X1 being 'confirmed' mean it's definitely not in there?

 

[E-phonk]

LEt's hope not, it would be an instant "Cancel Preorder!" for me. Android = Google overlords! For me. And if you want it.. fine.. but I don't. I want a simple console that just works, Not some kind of "install games in 5 minutes" crap with my information send to Google or MS.

AOSP is a fully open source codebase, and Google would have nothing to do with it. So what you write there wouldn't be happening at all.
You can perfectly use AOSP's kernel just as flexible as you could use vanilla unix or bsd afaik.

 

[ggx2ac]

Thanks! Does 28nm provide any benefits over 20nm? I'm guessing cost? Also hoping they use a custom cache/EDRAM solution, which, who knows, might need 28nm? Finally, does this still allow the possibility of the 128bit memory controller folks were talking about, or does X1 being 'confirmed' mean it's definitely not in there?

Cost and yields, unless TSMC apparently gave a "good deal" I don't see why it'd be better to use 20nm when it's barely used anymore.

You don't have to worry about cache in relation to the node. Plus we've never speculated that the GPU would use EDRAM, that it could just have more Cache or ESRAM.

Nodes aren't really preventing a 128-bit bus from happening but it's not even known if Nintendo even needs one relative to whatever the final specs will be.

 

[10k]

Isn't Pascal essentially just Maxwell on 16nm? I haven't done much research but apparently most of the benefits Pascal has over Maxwell was just due to the die shrink and not really much else.

It apparently handles FP16 better.

For the end user like us, Maxwell or Pascal and 20nm vs 16nm doesn't mean much.

Maybe the low clock speeds is because it has more cores and/or maximizing battery life?

 

[Schnozberry]

Thanks! Does 28nm provide any benefits over 20nm? I'm guessing cost? Also hoping they use a custom cache/EDRAM solution, which, who knows, might need 28nm? Finally, does this still allow the possibility of the 128bit memory controller folks were talking about, or does X1 being 'confirmed' mean it's definitely not in there?

We don't know about the customizations to Memory or a wider bus. I'd wager we'd see a 128-bit bus before we saw them use large chunks of embedded memory. TSMC does have papers out there for EDRAM at 28nm, but they are pretty old and there is no indication it ever hit mass production. With the newest 28nm process, they reduced the cell size as well, which would require further engineering refinement. There is also the issue of chip size, which would balloon quickly at 28nm with embedded memory. It just seems really unlikely, especially when other choices are cheaper and already proven in other products.

 

[calc84maniac]

Isn't Pascal essentially just Maxwell on 16nm? I haven't done much research but apparently most of the benefits Pascal has over Maxwell was just due to the die shrink and not really much else.

It apparently handles FP16 better.

For the end user like us, Maxwell or Pascal and 20nm vs 16nm doesn't mean much.

Maybe the low clock speeds is because it has more cores and/or maximizing battery life?

As far as I know, both Maxwell and Pascal on Tegra have double-speed FP16.

 

[Dehnus]

That's not what using AOSP would mean, as it's just the operating system codebase. You can create an operating system from Android source code, deploy, and use it without ever contacting Google.


That being said, I doubt the Switch's OS is based on AOSP, as there's not really any code there that would be useful for a gaming OS over more basic UNIX codebases.

Anything remotely touched by google I do not want to touch myself. I do not trust it nor do I want to be near it. I know what AOSP is and with Google being a part of it I simply do NOT trust it. PERIOD!

TInfoil hat much? Sure... but I rather stay away from things like Facebook, Trumper.. erm I mean Twitter and anything that farms my personal information. Like GMail, that you are FORCED to deal with as people get GMail accounts and use that so if you send an Email to them, you are still known to those feckers,

It thus wouldn't be that surprising that in the "Android Open Source Project" there are someremnants that collect data or phone home.. and I want NOTHING of it.

 

[Vanillalite]

Anything remotely touched by google I do not want to touch myself. I do not trust it nor do I want to be near it. I know what AOSP is and with Google being a part of it I simply do NOT trust it. PERIOD!

TInfoil hat much? Sure... but I rather stay away from things like Facebook, Trumper.. erm I mean Twitter and anything that farms my personal information. Like GMail, that you are FORCED to deal with as people get GMail accounts and use that so if you send an Email to them, you are still known to those feckers,

It thus wouldn't be that surprising that in the "Android Open Source Project" there are someremnants that collect data or phone home.. and I want NOTHING of it.

I mean don't use the web at all then? I shit ton of companies contribute to the Linux Kernel so good luck?