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[Thraktor]

PowerVR uses tag buffers to resolve visibility for a tile and interpolates attributes before executing pixel shading. Perhaps they could use a similar technique?

Actually, doing a little bit of reading on it, it seems that Vulkan might already have the functionality they need in the renderpass feature:

In Vulkan, a renderpass object contains the structure of the frame. In its simplest form, a renderpass encapsulates the set of framebuffer attachments, basic information about pipeline state and not much more. However, a renderpass can contain one or more subpasses and information about how those subpasses relate to one another. This is where things get interesting.

Each subpass can reference a subset of the framebuffer attachments for writing and also a subset of the framebuffer attachments for reading. These readable framebuffer attachments are known as input attachments and effectively contain the result of an earlier subpass at the same pixel. Unlike traditional render-to-texture techniques, where each pass may read any pixel produced by a previous pass, input attachments guarantee that each fragment shader only accesses data produced by shader invocations at the same pixel. Further, each subpass contains information about what to do with each of the attachments when it begins (clear it, restore it from memory, or leave it uninitialized) and what to do with the attachments when it ends (store it back to memory or throw it away). The dependencies between the subpasses are explicitly spelled out by the application. This allows a tiled renderer to know, exactly, when it needs to flush its tile buffer, clear it, restore it from memory, and so on.

Effectively, it seems that by giving explicit high-level information on the dependencies between render passes (and render objects?) to the GPU via Vulkan, it should allow a tile-based rasteriser to function a lot more efficiently than under DX or OpenGL (i.e. by knowing exactly what can be tiled and what can't ahead of time, and by being a lot more aggressive about clearing data from the cache when its no longer needed).

 

[Somnid]

The Switch wouldn't be limited to one Ram Module. Phones are dealing with much more limited real estate.

The surface area isn't much different, putting multiple RAM modules side-by-side isn't feasible. In fact 8GB modules require stacked RAM which is a very new thing.

 

[Mokujin]

It's not like he's insane. Allowing developers the flexibility to use higher clocks in portable mode, as long as the consumer is prompted and communicated that battery life will suffer, isn't completely out of bounds.

Thing is most of the docked grunt is going to be used to enable higher resolution mode, the game is going to be very close graphic quality wise in both modes.

So what would be the point of letting it run full speed undocked? Marginal IQ gains while shortening a really good deal battery life? Developers are not going to develop enhanced handheld modes, so what you basically get is a marketing shitstorm about "Switch battery being crap"

I find it quite amusing that some people are going so far speculating about very unlikely ways that Switch will be more powerful "because XXXXXX" leading to a sure dissapoinment.

 

[Schnozberry]

The surface area isn't much different, putting multiple RAM modules side-by-side isn't feasible. In fact 8GB modules require stacked RAM which is a very new thing.

The Tegra X1 already uses side by side modules in the Shield TV...

 

[ggx2ac]

I couldn't find a thread for this. (As in if anyone talked about it.) It's the same LPVG article as the one that was posted recently about Mother 3 and Zelda but updated with this info that there is no fan in the dock.

http://letsplayvideogames.com/2017/01/a-deep-dive-on-lpvgs-nintendo-switch-reports-and-info/

While patents released in December 2016 show that we were correct about the system increasing in clock speed to facilitate additional performance, we incorrectly stated that the dock contained an additional fan. The Patents reveal that while the system does cool better when docked, this is due to increased fan speed in the handheld.

In discussions since then with Source A (Nintendo), they have explained that they misunderstood when someone informed them that the system had additional cooling power when docked. It was a minor inaccuracy, but an inaccuracy none the less.

 

[Schnozberry]

Thing is most of the docked grunt is going to be used to use higher resolution, the game is going to be very graphic quality wise very close in both modes.

So what would be the point of letting it run full speed undocked? Marginal IQ gains while shortening a really good deal battery life? Developers are not going to develop enhanced handheld modes, so what you basically get is a marketing shitstorm about "Switch battery being crap"

I find it quite amusing that some people are going so far speculating about very unlikely ways that Switch will be more powerful "because XXXXXX" leading to a sure dissapoinment.

Any top tier third party games that make it to the console are going to be pushing 720p, even when docked. PS4 Pro players are already given choices between higher performance modes or higher image quality modes. Are you saying that people can't handle options as long as they are given proper warning about the effects of their choices?

Nintendo may very well decide that portable mode is locked at a certain frequency. My point was that it's not like it's batshit crazy to think that giving developers and consumers the choice could potentially expand the pool of games and consumers of the platform.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I don't see why you wouldn't be given a choice. Although full clocks might be the preferred way to play for graphically intense titles that have significantly reduced image quality and resolution while in portable mode, even if it means sacrificing battery life.

Those are the type of choices you should never force a user to make. People will feel like they are losing out either way. It's a bad experience.

 

[thefro]

Reportedly the new Shield TV is 40% smaller than the original edition:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3155...-killer-features-nvidia-didnt-talk-about.html

The new Shield TV still packs the same Tegra X1 chip and basic internal hardware as before, but Nvidia managed to shrink the second-gen box down by a whopping 40 percent. It’s impressively tiny in person, especially if you’ve ever laid eyes on the original model.

Does that point to them moving Tegra X1 to 16 nm?

 

[ggx2ac]

Reportedly the new Shield TV is 40% smaller than the original edition:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3155...-killer-features-nvidia-didnt-talk-about.html



Does that point to them moving Tegra X1 to 16 nm?

Well, they're not Nintendo so I wouldn't be surprised if they just die shrunk a TX1 to 16nmFF.

 

[Thraktor]

Reportedly the new Shield TV is 40% smaller than the original edition:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3155...-killer-features-nvidia-didnt-talk-about.html



Does that point to them moving Tegra X1 to 16 nm?

Nope, they just got rid of the space for the HDD from the smaller model.

 

[ggx2ac]

Nope, they just got rid of the space for the HDD from the smaller model.

Ahh, I was wondering about that since I remember someone posting an image with how much space the HDD takes up of the old model.

 

[brochiller]

Nope, they just got rid of the space for the HDD from the smaller model.

Didn't the original come in a version without an HDD too though?

Edit. It did.

http://m.androidcentral.com/nvidia-shield-android-tv-console-specs

 

[Rodin]

Nintendo is not going to let Switch have shit battery life, stop going too far into the wishful thinking line of thought please.

Both the 3DS and the Wii U gamepad have shit tier battery life. If they can release a controller with an SD screen and no SoC in it with a 3-4 hours battery life, they can get away with 2-3 on a HD screen and a SoC at full speed.

 

[Aostia]

Some actual new fact in here?

 

[calc84maniac]

Both the 3DS and the Wii U gamepad have shit tier battery life. If they can release a controller with an SD screen and no SoC in it with a 3-4 hours battery life, they can get away with 2-3 on a HD screen and a SoC at full speed.

You're not expected to use the Wii U gamepad far away from any power outlets.

What makes you think they'll be able to "get away with" a 2-3 hour battery life?

 

[ggx2ac]

Some actual new fact in here?

Other than the dock having no fan in it.

I've still never heard of or seen the source of the supposed docked mode clock speeds while portable. That's why I was looking at LPVG since it was claimed Laura Kate Dale was one of the people claiming it.

Note: Not referring to RAM, it is being claimed that the GPU can stay in the docked clock speed while portable.

 

[Aostia]

Other than the dock having no fan in it.

I've still never heard of or seen the source of the supposed docked mode clock speeds while portable. That's why I was looking at LPVG since it was claimed Laura Kate Dale was one of the people claiming it.

Note: Not referring to RAM, it is being claimed that the GPU can stay in the docked clock speed while portable.

So what is the dock supposed to do?

 

[KennyLinder]

So what is the dock supposed to do?

The dock charges the Switch, outputs the video/audio, and enables full clock speed.

 

[OryoN]

I couldn't find a thread for this. (As in if anyone talked about it.) It's the same LPVG article as the one that was posted recently about Mother 3 and Zelda but updated with this info that there is no fan in the dock.

http://letsplayvideogames.com/2017/01/a-deep-dive-on-lpvgs-nintendo-switch-reports-and-info/

Yeah, it's been talked about. Well, at least, the link was shared.

Not sure why some were expecting a fan in the dock. With the current design of the devices, there's just no way you could provide efficient cooling, compared to having a fan directly in the handheld device.

 

[Rodin]

You're not expected to use the Wii U gamepad far away from any power outlets.

What makes you think they'll be able to "get away with" a 2-3 hour battery life?

Because it won't be with all games, only with those that use the SoC at full power even when undocked. Which may be very few or zero for what we know. Anyway i doubt it'll be the rule, but the exception.

The dock charges the Switch, outputs the video/audio, and enables full clock speed.

It may also have a second fan to help cooling the system, at least Laura said so.

EDIT: nvm, she updated her article and said there isn't any, which actually makes sense if devs are allowed to use the full clockspeed when undocked.

The claim was that developers could use portable clocks in docked mode, to ensure compatibility, not the other way around.

Yeah but that can happen as well. Let's say that Steamworld Heist gets ported to the Switch and the hardware is capable of hitting 1080p/60fps even with the portable clockspeed. The devs might just use those clocks to render the game at 1080p so that you have a Full HD image on your TV and downsampling on the portable screen. The same thing might happen with Smash, especially if they don't significantly boost the graphics compared to the Wii U version.

 

[Mr Swine]

At best Nintendo limits Switch handheld performance to 150gflops and later down the line they let developers use the full 400gflops

 

[Daedardus]

Other than the dock having no fan in it.

I've still never heard of or seen the source of the supposed docked mode clock speeds while portable. That's why I was looking at LPVG since it was claimed Laura Kate Dale was one of the people claiming it.

Note: Not referring to RAM, it is being claimed that the GPU can stay in the docked clock speed while portable.

The claim was that developers could use portable clocks in docked mode, to ensure compatibility, not the other way around.

 

[Rolf NB]

So what is the dock supposed to do?

Charging.
Breaking out the HDMI port.

Also, quite important feature, fighting gravity: without the dock, Switch would easily fall over standing up on one edge.

 

[AlStrong]

The claim was that developers could use portable clocks in docked mode, to ensure compatibility, not the other way around.

Still, would be curious if they'd allow it if you were to connect a charging cable e.g. on a plane, car etc. Though I imagine the fan would be going maximum effort to cool everything.

 

[Aostia]

Yeah, it's been talked about. Well, at least, the link was shared.

Not sure why some were expecting a fan in the dock. With the current design of the devices, there's just no way you could provide efficient cooling, compared to having a fan directly in the handheld device.

Because it won't be with all games, only with those that use the SoC at full power even when undocked. Which may be very few or zero for what we know. Anyway i doubt it'll be the rule, but the exception.



It may also have a second fan to help cooling the system, at least Laura said so.

EDIT: nvm, she updated her article and said there isn't any, which actually makes sense if devs are allowed to use the full clockspeed when undocked.


Yeah but that can happen as well. Let's say that Steamworld Heist gets ported to the Switch and the hardware is capable of hitting 1080p/60fps even with the portable clockspeed. The devs might just use those clocks to render the game at 1080p so that you have a Full HD image on your TV and downsampling on the portable screen. The same thing might happen with Smash, especially if they don't significantly boost the graphics compared to the Wii U version.

Wait what

So fan or not fan?
Higher clock speed or not?
Are the two things unrelated?

 

[ggx2ac]

The claim was that developers could use portable clocks in docked mode, to ensure compatibility, not the other way around.

Incorrect, this is something different that I've pointed out before but still haven't seen the source.

Reference:

It being capable of using the fan when portable is also possibly because, as we've learned through rumors, the Switch's docked clocks can be accessed while on the go, meaning it would draw that 10+ watts for maybe 2 hours of game time.

Hmm?

The only docked clock speed that can be used while in portable mode is RAM, not the GPU.

Only the portable clock speeds of the RAM and GPU can stay the same while docked.

Clock speeds from Eurogamer for reference:

Undocked
Available CPU Speeds 1020MHz
Available GPU Speeds 307.2MHz
Available Memory Controller Speeds 1331/1600MHz


Docked
Available CPU Speeds 1020MHz
Available GPU Speeds 307.2/768MHz
Available Memory Controller Speeds 1331/1600MHz

 

[brochiller]

The dock charges the Switch, outputs the video/audio, and enables full clock speed.

Plus apparently converts the Display Port signal to HDMI.

 

[Rodin]

Wait what

So fan or not fan?
Higher clock speed or not?
Are the two things unrelated?

No additional fan in the dock. The fan is in the system and it runs at higher rpm when docked at the higher clockspeed (or if devs use the full clockspeed when undocked) and lower rpm when undocked at the stock portable clocks.

Incorrect, this is something different that I've pointed out before but still haven't seen the source.

Reference:

Clock speeds from Eurogamer for reference:

I'll wait to see the number of SM confirmed and articles about how certain games run in portable mode before taking EG's word as gospel. There's stuff we don't know yet.

 

[TyMiles2012]

Plus apparently converts the Display Port signal to HDMI.

Nvidia also released a patent for a very power efficient variable refresh display. I'm in no way expecting this, but a GSync powered display for the Switch screen to combat performance issues would be AMAZING.

 

[Aostia]

No additional fan in the dock. The fan is in the system and it runs at higher rpm when docked at the higher clockspeed (or if devs use the full clockspeed when undocked) and lower rpm when undocked at the stock portable clocks.

Oh, thanks

 

[fvng]

how does it compare to current gen consoles? more powerful or relatively the same?

 

[AlStrong]

Incorrect, this is something different that I've pointed out before but still haven't seen the source.

I think he's agreeing with you?

 

[Hoo-doo]

how does it compare to current gen consoles? more powerful or relatively the same?

According to the Eurogamer leak, it's about 33% as powerful as a Xbox One when docked. So neither.

 

[TyMiles2012]

how does it compare to current gen consoles? more powerful or relatively the same?

We don't know officially. Even the leaked clock speeds are still very vague.

I don't know what SM's are, but people are bringing those up that are changing different scenarios for the system, but it's also all about how good the development tools are. It could have a compute power of less than Xbox One, but it could definitely perform just as well in the real world. We'll just have to wait and see the games next Thursday and Friday.

 

[ggx2ac]

I think he's agreeing with you?

But I am still seeing the following being posted which is why I wanted to find the sources being claimed.

Laura and this ex Ubisoft employee has been saying that the docked clocks can be used when portable, and since the cooling is independent of the dock, this makes sense.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

So what is the dock supposed to do?

Give the system a permanent presence next to people's TVs.

Let's say that Steamworld Heist gets ported to the Switch and the hardware is capable of hitting 1080p/60fps even with the portable clockspeed. The devs might just use those clocks to render the game at 1080p so that you have a Full HD image on your TV and downsampling on the portable screen. The same thing might happen with Smash, especially if they don't significantly boost the graphics compared to the Wii U version.

I think even in a case where the portable mode was really running 1080p downsampled, though, it'd be pretty lazy to not similarly make it 1440p downsampled when docked or something.

 

[brochiller]

Nvidia also released a patent for a very power efficient variable refresh display. I'm in no way expecting this, but a GSync powered display for the Switch screen to combat performance issues would be AMAZING.

Maybe as a tablet, I definitely don't see it with the TV though.

 

[calc84maniac]

But I am still seeing the following being posted which is why I wanted to find the sources being claimed.

I think it was said that the dev units ran at full clocks even on battery, explaining that's where the poor battery life rumor came from. This somehow got twisted into "devs can use docked clocks even when portable", even though there's no proof this is something that will actually be allowed on production units. Unless there's another rumor I missed.

 

[Skittzo0413]

But I am still seeing the following being posted which is why I wanted to find the sources being claimed.

It's from Laura's AMA. She said that first in reference to the 3 hour battery life rumor, saying that this battery life is for the docked speeds and she clarified that developers could run the devkit unit at those speeds even when on battery power. She also speculated that this could be the point of the fan I believe.

But this was just based on devkits and she didn't seem to be able to confirm it for the final unit either way. I'm on mobile so I can't link it.

 

[ggx2ac]

I think it was said that the dev units ran at full clocks even on battery, explaining that's where the poor battery life rumor came from. This somehow got twisted into "devs can use docked clocks even when portable", even though there's no proof this is something that will actually be allowed on production units. Unless there's another rumor I missed.

Which is what I was looking for.

If we were to humour this as being true, then Nintendo would have to use buzzwords to get over the trade-off of reduced battery power for increased GPU clock speeds like... Blast Processing... Kaoken x2.5...

It's from Laura's AMA. She said that first in reference to the 3 hour battery life rumor, saying that this battery life is for the docked speeds and she clarified that developers could run the devkit unit at those speeds even when on battery power. She also speculated that this could be the point of the fan I believe.

Thanks.

 

[foltzie1]

So what is the dock supposed to do?

Others have answered but to recap.

The dock transforms the single port USB-C signal into power, data, and outputs HDMI video. It's increasingly looking like one of these USB-C dongles in a package that holds the system for convenient use on a TV. Hopefully, it's close to a price of a dongle.

It seems like it doesn't do anything special from a hardware standpoint, as it doesn't seem to have a second fan (which never quite made since if there was a fan in the system).

 

[ecosse_011172]

According to the Eurogamer leak, it's about 33% as powerful as a Xbox One when docked. So neither.

The leak without half of the information required to accurately compare the two? Ok.

 

[foltzie1]

According to the Eurogamer leak, it's about 33% as powerful as a Xbox One when docked. So neither.

The leak without half of the information required to accurately compare the two? Ok.

The leak and the conclusions being drawn are very reasonable to use initially. They are being somewhat corroborated by the numbers showing up in the Unreal Engine builds.

It wouldn't be surprising that Nintendo and Nvidia have done some customizations that might help the system "punch above its weight" the way the Gamecube, Wii, and Wii U chipsets did, but those end up being little used by third parties.

 

[Mokujin]

I couldn't find a thread for this. (As in if anyone talked about it.) It's the same LPVG article as the one that was posted recently about Mother 3 and Zelda but updated with this info that there is no fan in the dock.

http://letsplayvideogames.com/2017/01/a-deep-dive-on-lpvgs-nintendo-switch-reports-and-info/

Nice bit, didn't really make sense that there were two fans, it was either one on the dock or in the main unit.

Any top tier third party games that make it to the console are going to be pushing 720p, even when docked. PS4 Pro players are already given choices between higher performance modes or higher image quality modes. Are you saying that people can't handle options as long as they are given proper warning about the effects of their choices?

Nintendo may very well decide that portable mode is locked at a certain frequency. My point was that it's not like it's batshit crazy to think that giving developers and consumers the choice could potentially expand the pool of games and consumers of the platform.

You see, at the end of the day the main problem when talking about Switch is people trying to rationalize how Switch is going to handle "Top tier 3rd party games", and all the wild theories stem from that.-

• There will be more SMs for sure!
• It's totally Pascal guys! Don't worry about the clocks!
• I'm sure final unit will have 8GB!
• Full clock undocked is totally a thing!

If you ask me, Switch will be able to handle most 3rd party games as long as Developers want to support it (and if the Switch sell well most will be willing to), but compromises will have to be made obviously.

Personally I think it would be an awful decision to enable undocked full clock because you would be basically sabotaging the hybrid nature of the system, it would give both shit battery life for those that use full clock undocked and a craaaptastic normal handheld mode versions, I would rather have good games starting from a fine scaled down handheld version and being able to seamlessly play it upresed on my TV (thankfully I'm pretty sure this is going to be the case).

As a final bit, how do you explain that EG gave explicit clocks for docked and undocked mode?

 

[calc84maniac]

It's sad to me how bad people want this to be a cheap console and use maxwell 20 or 28nm so they can say "lol Nintendo." But this is neogaf as to be expected.

I don't see anybody here saying that, and it's not as if the node size changes performance at a given clock speed. We're trying to figure out what Nintendo might have done, and why. If it's to lower the price of the console, that's a completely valid decision.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

It's sad to me how bad people want this to be a cheap console and use maxwell 20 or 28nm so they can say "lol Nintendo." But this is neogaf as to be expected.

Sad?

A cheap console would sell crazy amounts. lol

 

[Hoo-doo]

The leak without half of the information required to accurately compare the two? Ok.

It gives us plenty of insight in the potential power envelope. Most likely estimates put it at the position I posted above.

But obviously you can just disregard the leak entirely if you prefer.

 

[Astral Dog]

The leak and the conclusions being drawn are very reasonable to use for initial conclusions. They are being somewhat cooperated by the numbers showing up in the Unreal Engine builds.

It wouldn't be surprising that Nintendo and Nvidia have done some customizations that might help the system "punch above its weight" the way the Gamecube, Wii, and Wii U chipsets did, but those end up being little used by third parties.

Except for the Wii and Gamecube mister. Some of the best looking games on those systems are third party for example the Resident Evils

Edit: the Wii U is the only Nintendo system were third parties didn't used the graphic capability at max :O

 

[z0m3le]

I don't see anybody here saying that, and it's not as if the node size changes performance at a given clock speed. We're trying to figure out what Nintendo might have done, and why. If it's to lower the price of the console, that's a completely valid decision.

The problem is that if you save a few dollars on a 28nm process, you'll have to turn around and use those few dollars on a larger battery, better cooling, etc. Even with low clocks, 16nm would save Nintendo money on not having to use a bigger battery that 28nm would require.

I'm not saying they did move to 16nm, I'm saying the reasoning to use 28nm over it is flawed.

 

[Schnozberry]

You see, at the end of the day the main problem when talking about Switch is people trying to rationalize how Switch is going to handle "Top tier 3rd party games", and all the wild theories stem from that.-

• There will be more SMs for sure!
• It's totally Pascal guys! Don't worry about the clocks!
• I'm sure final unit will have 8GB!
• Full clock undocked is totally a thing!

If you ask me, Switch will be able to handle most 3rd party games as long as Developers want to support it (and if the Switch sell well most will be willing to), but compromises will have to be made obviously.

Personally I think it would be an awful decision to enable undocked full clock because you would be basically sabotaging the hybrid nature of the system, if would give both shit battery life for those that use full clock undocked and a craaaptastic normal handheld mode versions, I would rather have good games starting from a fine scaled down handheld version and being able to seamlessly play it upresed on my TV (thankfully I'm pretty sure this is going to be the case).

As a final bit, how do you explain that EG gave explicit clocks for docked and undocked mode?

Using overconfident technically illiterate posters to create a strawman that bolsters your personal speculation doesn't really alter the fundamental argument here.

From a business strategy standpoint, there are games that may be able to scale down enough to run on the switch at the docked clock speeds, but would require fundamental changes to the nature of the game to make it work at the undocked speeds specified by Eurogamer. If you want those games on your platform, it's an issue that you can't ignore.

The Eurogamer leak makes it pretty clear that developers can choose to keep the undocked clock speeds even when displaying on a television, if that's their choice. They also have a choice of memory bus speeds while undocked as well. My point is that this is clearly a flexible system that grants a measure of developer control. If allowing docked speeds at the expense of battery life means more games on the platform, I think Nintendo would be foolish to rule it out entirely. They just have to communicate to consumers adequately that these games will have a much shorter playtime while on the go due to how much they push the system. People are already used to this playing the more graphically intense games on their Apple or Android devices. The battery life goes completely to shit when the GPU is really working hard.