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[Jaagen]

I'm with Shog as well, and I think anything that is not an ARM+PowerVR combo is very unlikely. Just hope they'll go for the SGX core, as it has programmable shaders.

One thing I wonder though, is how they're deciding on keeping the DS backwards compatibility. Can both the codes for the ARM 9 and 7 run on a higher clocked ARM 11(at the same time), or are we talking about an ARM 11+9 combo(remember that the GBA/SP had the GBC CPU on board, and the DS contains the GBA CPU as well)

The other question is of course, the input method. Multitouch? Iwata has an iPhone(said so in an E3 interview...can't remember where), so I guess they're paying attention to the technology behind it.

 

[Christine]

As far as B/C with NDS...my ideas would accomedate for it on a screen/controls wise, but I dunno about dirrect hardware B/C? That's why I think either NDS games would be done via emulation (through a DD service) and/or an adaptor of sorts for hardware B/C. I dunno how that would work, but I do know that piracy is an issue for Nintendo and that by the time this next portable would come (I don't think as soon as you think) B/C with NDS dirrectly may not be as important if it could be handled indirrectly through an adaptor or a portable VC service.

Absolutely, positively not. The ONE feature that is guaranteed to be in DS2 is direct compatibility with NDS cards. It doesn't matter if it's by software emulation or inclusion of B/C hardware parts - but out of the box you will be able to plug in an original DS card and play it.

Look at it this way - there are already more DS cards extant than GBA carts - after another year or two, the feature of B/C with DS cards will be more desirable to more consumers than GBA back compatability was on the DS.

 

[Metaphoreus]

The thought of all the gimmick controls that would be spawned by a controller with both motion sensing AND a touch screen makes me shudder.

You know, you brought a lot of symmetry to that page. It started out with a post about the iPhone, and you concluded it with how the thought of a controller with motion sensing and a touch screen would make you shudder.

 

[Neomoto]

The other question is of course, the input method. Multitouch? Iwata has an iPhone(said so in an E3 interview...can't remember where), so I guess they're paying attention to the technology behind it.

Nintendo already had patents before the iPhone (I think) using multi touch screens, even a "demo" application with "patent drawn pictures" where you use 2 fingers to controll both wings of a plane in Star Fox. So at the very least they are (or have been) experimenting with it.

 

[Jaagen]

Absolutely, positively not. The ONE feature that is guaranteed to be in DS2 is direct compatibility with NDS cards. It doesn't matter if it's by software emulation or inclusion of B/C hardware parts - but out of the box you will be able to plug in an original DS card and play it.

Look at it this way - there are already more DS cards extant than GBA carts - after another year or two, the feature of B/C with DS cards will be more desirable to more consumers than GBA back compatability was on the DS.

Indeed. I guess Nintendo will probably add a Virtual Console service for GB/GBC/GBA games too. It makes sense, and you'll loose the GBA port too. Only thing in question are the expansion packs for the DS, but I guess Nintendo, quite frankly, won't bother.

Neomoto: I see. I guess the DS2 multitouch screen will probably be more conventional than the iPhone's, which will make room for stylus usage.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Absolutely, positively not. The ONE feature that is guaranteed to be in DS2 is direct compatibility with NDS cards. It doesn't matter if it's by software emulation or inclusion of B/C hardware parts - but out of the box you will be able to plug in an original DS card and play it.

Look at it this way - there are already more DS cards extant than GBA carts - after another year or two, the feature of B/C with DS cards will be more desirable to more consumers than GBA back compatability was on the DS.

Perhaps you're right, my universal format dream may just be a dream. I'm finding it harder and harder to hold it together in my mind. I thought it was lining up with what Nintendo is doing (the holo storage format, holding back Wii's power, long lasting generation giving them time to make it work, disrupting themselves, piracy protection, etc.) but the more I think about it, Nintendo can't really abandon B/C (for NDS or Wii) in their next systems like that, nor can they force a universal format to work in both their next portable & console.

I would HOPE that they would make their DD service workable across both systems though (download a VC game that can be played on either their portable or console) and start a developer initiative to include downloadable content from the console game to the portable. But then we run right back into the storage (and thus, piracy) issues Nintendo will probably have with such an idea. it's way too early to tell...I mean, they haven't even really dealt with the storage issues Wii (and NDS) currently have, nor do I really know how they will without allowing direct SD access for Wii (and making another hardware revision for NDS). maybe I'd know better what the future holds if I knew what they were going to do for those storage solutions. That also leaves what Nintendo would do for B/C on NDS (and Wii) whilst trying to prevent piracy backdoors? And then what about this holo storage solution, that would be ideal for both their platforms? Though, if it had this holo storage as it's format, would the next Wii still have a disc slot and the next NDS have a card slot (they should, of course, for B/C, but won't that hinder, at least in the next Wii's case, it's piracy protection and overall performance & price)? It's just too confusing, I'd prefer the next Wii not to have a disc drive (unless of course it played Blu-Ray's, but that's a whole other topic) or that if it did, it'd be a seperatly bought option for those who wanted B/C.

I'm just too confused at this point on what they'd do.

 

[Neo C.]

I'm just too confused at this point on what they'd do.

Just think about the most reasonable development, buddy. The more you dream, the bigger is the confusion.

 

[Shogmaster]

Just think about the most reasonable development, buddy. The more you dream, the bigger is the confusion.

DrGAKMAN is ISAMU of console concept daydreaming.

 

[Christine]

Perhaps you're right, my universal format dream may just be a dream. I'm finding it harder and harder to hold it together in my mind. I thought it was lining up with what Nintendo is doing (the holo storage format, holding back Wii's power, long lasting generation giving them time to make it work, disrupting themselves, piracy protection, etc.) but the more I think about it, Nintendo can't really abandon B/C (for NDS or Wii) in their next systems like that, nor can they force a universal format to work in both their next portable & console.

The constraints that a shared format would put on the design of both devices are probably not worth the benefits it would bring, which are only maximal when consumer preferences would naturally be evenly split across playing a given game on either the portable or the home system. If 75% of people decide to play Game X on the portable, for example, that's at most 25% of the potential audience for a shared format game that might not buy a portable-only version. Of that 25%, a significant portion are likely to buy the game under the current model despite their preference to play it on a home console.

I would HOPE that they would make their DD service workable across both systems though (download a VC game that can be played on either their portable or console)

What's almost certain is that much or all of the VC library can be purchased on either the portable or the home console, but Nintendo is unlikely to permit you to play the game on any system other than the one you purchased it from. To add insult to injury, the VC files will probably include emulator binaries for both the home system and portable despite being locked to a single device.

and start a developer initiative to include downloadable content from the console game to the portable.

Let's see if they actually manage anything interesting themselves on DS and Wii before thinking about what they'd encourage third parties to do on succeeding devices.

But then we run right back into the storage (and thus, piracy) issues Nintendo will probably have with such an idea. it's way too early to tell...I mean, they haven't even really dealt with the storage issues Wii (and NDS) currently have, nor do I really know how they will without allowing direct SD access for Wii (and making another hardware revision for NDS). maybe I'd know better what the future holds if I knew what they were going to do for those storage solutions.

For the Wii: ???
For the DS: not a damn thing.

That also leaves what Nintendo would do for B/C on NDS (and Wii) whilst trying to prevent piracy backdoors?

For the DS successor they're probably going to have to put up with having existing mod products continuing to play NDS roms and homebrew apps in NDS mode. Legacy backdoors for Wii piracy shouldn't be an overall concern for system security and can probably even be closed if they actually implement some modern security such as a hypervisor.

And then what about this holo storage solution, that would be ideal for both their platforms? Though, if it had this holo storage as it's format, would the next Wii still have a disc slot and the next NDS have a card slot (they should, of course, for B/C, but won't that hinder, at least in the next Wii's case, it's piracy protection and overall performance & price)? It's just too confusing, I'd prefer the next Wii not to have a disc drive (unless of course it played Blu-Ray's, but that's a whole other topic) or that if it did, it'd be a seperatly bought option for those who wanted B/C.

Assuming this tech is ready cost-wise when Nintendo does its next systems, they can use the same card form factor on the portable - note that DS cards are keyed so that a new slot interface can be built to accept original DS cards as well as cards keyed to refuse insertion into an original DS.

As far as the home console, the disc drive should stay in every unit. There aren't any adverse effects other than the initial cost, which will be fairly low especially if they don't have to support anything more advanced than dual-layer DVD. It's not as if it will make idle noise while it's not in use - and a separate B/C drive module is a bit ridiculous if you remember that it will have to compete with the actual Wii as an option for those who want B/C.

I'm just too confused at this point on what they'd do.

The people at Nintendo probably aren't 100% certain either, so don't feel too bad.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

The constraints that a shared format would put on the design of both devices are probably not worth the benefits it would bring, which are only maximal when consumer preferences would naturally be evenly split across playing a given game on either the portable or the home system. If 75% of people decide to play Game X on the portable, for example, that's at most 25% of the potential audience for a shared format game that might not buy a portable-only version. Of that 25%, a significant portion are likely to buy the game under the current model despite their preference to play it on a home console.

What's almost certain is that much or all of the VC library can be purchased on either the portable or the home console, but Nintendo is unlikely to permit you to play the game on any system other than the one you purchased it from. To add insult to injury, the VC files will probably include emulator binaries for both the home system and portable despite being locked to a single device.

Let's see if they actually manage anything interesting themselves on DS and Wii before thinking about what they'd encourage third parties to do on succeeding devices.

For the Wii: ???
For the DS: not a damn thing.

For the DS successor they're probably going to have to put up with having existing mod products continuing to play NDS roms and homebrew apps in NDS mode. Legacy backdoors for Wii piracy shouldn't be an overall concern for system security and can probably even be closed if they actually implement some modern security such as a hypervisor.

Assuming this tech is ready cost-wise when Nintendo does its next systems, they can use the same card form factor on the portable - note that DS cards are keyed so that a new slot interface can be built to accept original DS cards as well as cards keyed to refuse insertion into an original DS.

As far as the home console, the disc drive should stay in every unit. There aren't any adverse effects other than the initial cost, which will be fairly low especially if they don't have to support anything more advanced than dual-layer DVD. It's not as if it will make idle noise while it's not in use - and a separate B/C drive module is a bit ridiculous if you remember that it will have to compete with the actual Wii as an option for those who want B/C.

The people at Nintendo probably aren't 100% certain either, so don't feel too bad.

Thanks for taking my ideas/posts seriously in your responce. I'm sorta "back to the drawing boards" with my ideas again since what I was dreaming up doesn't seem viable even in a propossed next-gen set-up possibly years off. There's just *too much* unknown at this point to fully flesh out next-gen speculation when Nintendo hasn't addressed this gen:
#1-storage issues on Wii/NDS
#2-whether WiiWare/VC Channel's we've bought will work on their next system (let alone handheld)
#3-what's up with the holo storage format idea

#1- You're probably right, Nintendo won't deal with it on NDS until the next one arrives (which either means another revision, or more likely, wait for next cycle). On Wii, SD is there and really all they'd have to do is "open up" executables from SD, yet they haven't. I've speculated that if they wanted to, they already would have, so they may not want to so they'll go another route (a whipeboard method instead of the current fridge method).

#2- This would be *really* rotten if they won't allow this. It'd be as simple as attaching your nintendo.com "MyNintendo" account to your WiiShop account (so that they would *know* you bought it 'cos as soon as you do it get's registered that way) but who knows if they'll allow that?

#3- It could mean nothing, it could mean everything. Or, maybe the games would still come on NDS cards & Wii discs, but now stored data (VC, WiiWare, Channel's, DLC, game saves, user created content, etc.) would be stored this way (as it won't be easily pirated) instead of on a memory card or HDD. Maybe it'd be a combination of holo cards for the above as well as read-only holo cards for larger retail games as time goes on, costs get lower and capacities increase?

As I'm going to the drawing boards though...I have a few thoughts/questions:

A) Having NDS card & Wii disc (GCN disc too?) compatibility in their successors...how limited would that make the hardware (if it's done in hardware) or how powerful would the hardware have to be to emulate through software???

B) Could NDS card & Wii disc software be enhanced on the new hardware? Like say if developers coded newer NDS/Wii games to take advantage of the next NDS/Wii's hardware (while still making them compatible with the current NDS/Wii) could they give those games more effects & higher-resolution graphics when played on the next NDS/Wii?

C) What would it take for the NDS successor to be able to run legacy VC games that we have today (up to N64)?

D) Would the Wii's successor run VC games beyond legacy (N64 and newer) systems or would those games be too modern and thus game makers rather re-make or sequel them instead? This especially goes for if the Wii's successor won't have the ability to play GCN discs (to save money and R&D on old hardware and having the processors run at different speeds like the current Wii does) then how would we play those games?

 

[Christine]

As I'm going to the drawing boards though...I have a few thoughts/questions:

A) Having NDS card & Wii disc (GCN disc too?) compatibility in their successors...how limited would that make the hardware (if it's done in hardware) or how powerful would the hardware have to be to emulate through software???

The portable is likely to continue being based on ARM... which should have fairly natural B/C with DS. For the home console, it doesn't seem that extending the Broadway/Hollywood architectures further will be sufficient or cost-efficient - so we are looking at either full or partial system-on-a-chip or software B/C, neither of which should impose limits akin to those imposed by the GameCube support on Wii. With regards to the hardware requirements for software B/C, I think that the PC performance profile for the Dolphin indicates that it should be quite reasonable to do on something moderately more powerful than the 360, for instance.

B) Could NDS card & Wii disc software be enhanced on the new hardware? Like say if developers coded newer NDS/Wii games to take advantage of the next NDS/Wii's hardware (while still making them compatible with the current NDS/Wii) could they give those games more effects & higher-resolution graphics when played on the next NDS/Wii?

Possible, but unlikely. Nintendo's played around with this kind of extensibility in the past - GB color-enhanced games like Pokemon Yellow and Link's Awakening DX, for instance, and the Super GameBoy actually provided full access to the SNES hardware, I think one game uses the SNES sound chip to do enhanced audio. However, their current view of the market is that graphical enhancements are not a strong selling point, so I don't think they'll consider it worth the effort to shine up Wii or DS games.

C) What would it take for the NDS successor to be able to run legacy VC games that we have today (up to N64)?

The performance requirements are trivial in comparison to interface and storage concerns.

D) Would the Wii's successor run VC games beyond legacy (N64 and newer) systems or would those games be too modern and thus game makers rather re-make or sequel them instead? This especially goes for if the Wii's successor won't have the ability to play GCN discs (to save money and R&D on old hardware and having the processors run at different speeds like the current Wii does) then how would we play those games?

I don't see any real reason to remove GOD support. They already designed the widget that supports both disc sizes in a slot-load drive, and switching the clock speed on an embedded Broadway/Hollywood SOAC or in a software emulator is no big deal. This doesn't mean that they couldn't also offer GCN titles through the VC shop.

As far as other post-N64 systems, just about everything belongs to a current platform competitor, so we're pretty much talking about Dreamcast... and as far as that goes, I don't really see why not.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

The portable is likely to continue being based on ARM... which should have fairly natural B/C with DS. For the home console, it doesn't seem that extending the Broadway/Hollywood architectures further will be sufficient or cost-efficient - so we are looking at either full or partial system-on-a-chip or software B/C, neither of which should impose limits akin to those imposed by the GameCube support on Wii. With regards to the hardware requirements for software B/C, I think that the PC performance profile for the Dolphin indicates that it should be quite reasonable to do on something moderately more powerful than the 360, for instance.

I agree on the NDS's successor, B/C shouldn't be difficult since ARM will most likely still be the main processor(s) for the system. On the Wii's successor though you're suggesting that B/C could be handled in software if the hardware is above X360-levels and/or if Nintendo goes with Broadway/Hollywood embedded into a SoC architecture...BUT...what about IBM's & ATi's special instructions...wouldn't this limit the hardware and partners to only using IBM & ATi (AMD) again? How could this be worked around so Nintendo isn't stuck or forced into that situation...especially with Flipper & PowerPC being sorta outdated for a next-gen system?

Possible, but unlikely. Nintendo's played around with this kind of extensibility in the past - GB color-enhanced games like Pokemon Yellow and Link's Awakening DX, for instance, and the Super GameBoy actually provided full access to the SNES hardware, I think one game uses the SNES sound chip to do enhanced audio. However, their current view of the market is that graphical enhancements are not a strong selling point, so I don't think they'll consider it worth the effort to shine up Wii or DS games.

The reason I ask is because durring this propossed time (like with the GameBoy examples you gave) there will be a transition period from Wii to Wii's successor. Since both would play Wii disc's that would make transitioning easier if existing Wii owners (not ready to upgrade) could still play certain new Wii games while early adopters of the next Wii would benifit from some extra's I only propose this as I think it'd make the transition easier as well as justifying the keeping of the previous system's format even before the newer (holo) format starts to take over. Afterall, doesn't PS3 enhance PS2 games (and upscale DVD's) somewhat?

The performance requirements are trivial in comparison to interface and storage concerns.

So you're saying performance wise it should be easy for Nintendo's next portable to handle N64-level VC games? When you say interface I suppose you mean N64-level digital/analog controls...that shouldn't really be too hard to impliment nor should storage capacity for N64-level games given their ties to the high-capacity holo format.

I don't see any real reason to remove GOD support. They already designed the widget that supports both disc sizes in a slot-load drive, and switching the clock speed on an embedded Broadway/Hollywood SOAC or in a software emulator is no big deal. This doesn't mean that they couldn't also offer GCN titles through the VC shop.

Good good, but what about GCN memory card & controller support that GCN games would require? I guess if emulation is handled via software then that's really moot since it could be made to work that way without a GCN memory card or controller.

As far as other post-N64 systems, just about everything belongs to a current platform competitor, so we're pretty much talking about Dreamcast... and as far as that goes, I don't really see why not.

Well Dreamcast of course, but I'm also talking SegaCD, Saturn, other systems as well as arcade systems. Main reason I ask is because if the Wii's successor could do DC on VC (while the NDS's successor can only do up to N64) then that would really tell us a lot about the next NDS' power-level, screen resolution (N64 can be up to 480x640) & it's digital distribution services (if it can't play the same VC & Channel's the Wii's successor can, then it's service may be completly seperate/different from the console one). I'd say, if Nintendo stops VC at N64 (and some arcade systems) drawing a line between legacy & modern then that means more "modern" games would either have to be re-makes/sequels on the WiiWare (DSWare) service and/or retail games...which again can give us a heads-up on specs.

 

[Christine]

I agree on the NDS's successor, B/C shouldn't be difficult since ARM will most likely still be the main processor(s) for the system. On the Wii's successor though you're suggesting that B/C could be handled in software if the hardware is above X360-levels and/or if Nintendo goes with Broadway/Hollywood embedded into a SoC architecture...BUT...what about IBM's & ATi's special instructions...wouldn't this limit the hardware and partners to only using IBM & ATi (AMD) again? How could this be worked around so Nintendo isn't stuck or forced into that situation...especially with Flipper & PowerPC being sorta outdated for a next-gen system?

I'm not quite following you - Nintendo would need to pay IBM/AMD a per-console license to include the B/C support either in hardware or software, but that shouldn't put any restrictions on their choice of hardware partners for a new hardware architecture. They probably will choose IBM and AMD again, however, as they seem to have a good working relationship with those companies.

The reason I ask is because durring this propossed time (like with the GameBoy examples you gave) there will be a transition period from Wii to Wii's successor. Since both would play Wii disc's that would make transitioning easier if existing Wii owners (not ready to upgrade) could still play certain new Wii games while early adopters of the next Wii would benifit from some extra's I only propose this as I think it'd make the transition easier as well as justifying the keeping of the previous system's format even before the newer (holo) format starts to take over. Afterall, doesn't PS3 enhance PS2 games (and upscale DVD's) somewhat?

Well, what the PS3 is doing is completely reliant on the console hardware and doesn't require any effort on the software development end - except for God of War 2, I think. So you might see one or two high-profile games from Nintendo do something along these lines, possibly. I think it very unlikely that any third party would make the effort, even if Nintendo were to provide the software support necessary to make this happen in the necessary time-frame. There's nothing stopping it from doing PS3-style upscaling of Wii/GCN games, though.

So you're saying performance wise it should be easy for Nintendo's next portable to handle N64-level VC games? When you say interface I suppose you mean N64-level digital/analog controls...that shouldn't really be too hard to impliment nor should storage capacity for N64-level games given their ties to the high-capacity holo format.

Yes, the performance shouldn't really be an issue - and storage is much less of a concern than the interface. N64 VC has interface problems on the classic controller, and unless a DS successor has either 6 face buttons (not bloody likely) or a second analog stick, it will be very difficult.

Good good, but what about GCN memory card & controller support that GCN games would require? I guess if emulation is handled via software then that's really moot since it could be made to work that way without a GCN memory card or controller.

They can do this with SoC B/C as well, having the primary processors translating I/O into legacy signals for the SoC.

Well Dreamcast of course, but I'm also talking SegaCD, Saturn, other systems as well as arcade systems. Main reason I ask is because if the Wii's successor could do DC on VC (while the NDS's successor can only do up to N64) then that would really tell us a lot about the next NDS' power-level, screen resolution (N64 can be up to 480x640) & it's digital distribution services (if it can't play the same VC & Channel's the Wii's successor can, then it's service may be completly seperate/different from the console one). I'd say, if Nintendo stops VC at N64 (and some arcade systems) drawing a line between legacy & modern then that means more "modern" games would either have to be re-makes/sequels on the WiiWare (DSWare) service and/or retail games...which again can give us a heads-up on specs.

I feel like you're getting a little ahead of yourself here - sure, we can speculate about which systems will see support where and then try to figure out what implications that might have in terms of hardware - but honestly it's pretty much just navel-gazing until we get a lot more concrete information from Nintendo, which probably won't happen for quite a while.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Thanks for your responces...
I agree that Nintendo will probably stick with ATi...but when AMD owns ATi and IBM's PowerPC is dead, I would just want Nintendo to be as free as possible from old technology. Luckily, it's not like the GCN/Wii wouldn't be that hard to do software emulation for and still fall under the conservativeness of Nintendo.

Yeah, what I was suggesting for Wii disc-based games being enhanced was more about making the transition to a newer format (whether it'd be the holo format or a Wii "next" disc) easier. It'll be hard on Nintendo since that's basically six or seven outlets to spread resources across:
-VC
-WiiWare
-possible "DSWare"
-NDS
-NDS's successor
-Wii
-Wii's successor

As far as N64 control support on the next portable, my idea (which I'll show here someday soon) handles that (as well as any other VC title) no problem...especially given I'm planning for the screen to be 480x640.

Looking ahead, I see that a universal format (especially at the sacrifice of out-of-box B/C) isn't doable even for next-gen. However, I'd like to think that *some* software would work across both platforms where it makes sense. For example: VC (if they only go up to N64 & some arcade titles), some Channel's (like the Mii, internet, news, weather, Photo, Nintendo, etc.), some Ware's and even some physical retail holo-format software (like say a next-gen Animal Crossing that works on either system) should be doable IMO.

My idea's stem from the fact that Nintendo has broken down the interface barrier for non-gamers with NDS & Wii and that if they plan to further reach to more non-gamers they have to leap over 2 other major barriers: price & platform confusion. That's why I saw a universal format as something they should go for...but I guess it's just a dream at this point.

 

[blu]

Funny enough, 2MB eDRAM is about what PSP has in it's graphics core, ain't it?

4. half of which are available to apps.

 

[Shogmaster]

4. half of which are available to apps.

4MB > 2MB for Media Engine and 2MB for Graphics core. We're discussing game purposes only.

 

[blu]

4MB > 2MB for Media Engine and 2MB for Graphics core. We're discussing game purposes only.

that separation is entirely artificial, as in 'it's there because sony say so'. e.g. homebrew that can use the ME can also potentially make use of the ME-owned edram. also, i thought you were discussing what was viable to find its way in a handheld transistors-wise, i.e. '4MB of edram in the PSP' (fact) is 4MB of edram, no matter how you look at it.