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Nioh Alpha Demo Feedback

My main complaints were the lock on camera and the horizontal tracking on vertical attacks from enemies. Other than that they seem to be on the right track.

I did ask for louder footstep noises so you can sound weightier in your armor :p
 

Spman2099

Member
I am genuinely afraid that people didn't spend enough time with the game to give the appropriate feedback. The enemy AI desperately needs to be improved. It they were simply less swing happy, and they had less recovery on their attacks, that would completely fix it. However, as is, I am afraid people are going to ask for them to soften the difficulty. I know I have been beating this drum for a while now, but I only do so because I care. This game is awesome, but it is being dragged down by its rambunctious AI.

This game is awesome, I am buying it day one, but it is going to be painfully easy if they don't fix the AI.

P.S. On a separate note, I hope the level design is more in line with the first stage and not the second. The second is a tiny bit bland in comparison to the first.
 

Hahs

Member
P.S. On a separate note, I hope the level design is more in line with the first stage and not the second. The second is a tiny bit bland in comparison to the first.
That's typical of an alpha - the levels aren't complete yet; everything should be beefier by release.
 

i-Jest

Member
Fix the lock on that either disappears, or doesn't fixate me on the enemy during strikes. Fix the camera that merges into the enviroment, thus blocking my field of vision when enemies sworm me. Those are really my only complaints with the game.
 

Spman2099

Member
nah, it's fine the way it is.

You haven't figured out how to play the game yet if you truly believe that.

You can just move backwards, have them flail in front of you, and chop them down. It is brain dead easy once you know this.

I died three times on the second stage (not including the boss fight, which killed me three times). Once because I was screwing around with the parry, once because I backed myself into a corner, and once because I fought an oni while being bombed by an enemy that was siting on the roof. I cleared the entire second stage, including all the revenants, so I could farm for armor with a high thunder resistance. I did this at level 26, which is just one level above what they recommend. I was playing dumb while I did this. I got hit with crap I shouldn't have been hit by (mainly bombs). It was still easy to do.
 
You want the game to be easy? Okay, my bad, I hadn't considered that. I sometimes forget that my desires aren't what everyone else necessarily wants from the game. Admittedly, that is a little self-centered on my part.

It's not about what I want.

Your mistake was thinking that everyone playing this game would naturally be on the same level, but you have to give less skilled players a fighting chance. Leaving in some weakness would allow them to take advantage of enemies that they may otherwise have problems fighting head on. And if an enemy's weakness is that they're too aggressive, that's good.
 

Spman2099

Member
It's not about what I want.

Your mistake was thinking that everyone playing this game would naturally be on the same level, but you have to give less skilled players a fighting chance. Leaving in some weakness would allow them to take advantage of enemies that they may otherwise have problems fighting head on. And if an enemy's weakness is that they're too aggressive, that's good.

Those recovery animations are pretty damn long, though. Every enemy needs a weakness, so I get that, but I don't think every enemy should have the same weakness.

By the way, this is completely a knowledge thing. I am a very average gamer. This isn't about me being good at the game. I think I just stumbled upon the info before most other people. That is why people think it is a hard game right now.

I have said my piece. Either way, I think the game is damn fine. I am ready to pick it up on day one.
 

Jeiiya

Member
I like how harsh the penalty is for blowing through your ki and overall the game was fine considering it is an 'alpha' build. I hope they add more unique weapons and go beyond just 3 weapon types.

I gotta say though, after playing with the spear and feeling like the game was in easy mode for both areas, I was blown away by how huge the parry window is for the katana in mid-stance. Parrying in Nioh is so easy, to the point that it feels kind of like cheating and I'm awful at parrying in DS3. It makes me excited to see Nioh PvP.
 

Beartruck

Member
Considering how important the stamina "active reload" is, unless the game tells you how it works right away, it fucked up. The souls method of "figure it out on your own" shouldn't apply here, it is way too fast and punishing to hope everyone figures it out.
 
Considering how important the stamina "active reload" is, unless the game tells you how it works right away, it fucked up. The souls method of "figure it out on your own" shouldn't apply here, it is way too fast and punishing to hope everyone figures it out.

...That's what people said about Souls too.
 

Mupod

Member
souls combat is completely straightforward compared to this. Nioh is absolutely the kind of game you'd need to read the manual first, and we live in a world where games stopped coming with those years ago. I had to run to a youtube guide pretty fast just to understand the basics, I'd recognized that there was some kind of 'flash' happening on my ki bar sometimes but I had no idea about the pulse system. I'd really, really hope they do a better job explaining the basic mechanics in the actual game.

Anyways my own feedback - as others have said the loot system needs some refinement. I think it's cool that if you kill an enemy they drop everything they were using. I think it's less cool how fast your inventory becomes an absolute clusterfuck. Going through and constantly organizing it/cleaning stuff up isn't fun.

I like the idea of the combat system and it started working well for me eventually against regular enemies. The trollish enemy placement is really dumb and frustrating because you're either 100% guaranteed dead or in for a very tedious back and forth if you pull 3+. I don't like how you need to specialize in specific weapons which can completely screw you over, I put my points into hammers/axes and certain enemies were way harder than they should be since there was no safe way to attack them.

It was the boss that made me think this game isn't for me. It feels like it's working against me in a similar way that Bloodborne was but to a greater degree. I'm very good at Monster Hunter and Souls which are about observation and patience. I'm not good at turning off my brain and breaking enemy stamina levels by making risky moves. But that was the only way I was able to beat the boss, just going ham with high stance attacks until it fell over and stopped fighting back. I may have won but it wasn't by playing well, it was by playing like an idiot.

My previous approach was running into issues because I'd get hit in situations where I thought I was fine due to bad hitboxes and the guard randomly not working. I don't see how an attack that hits the entire room, cannot be rolled through, breaks through your guard 1/3 of the time, and does 80% of your hp is good design. I certainly don't think I'd enjoy a whole game full of things like this.

I don't know how many of my problems were caused by sticking to the hammer weapon type, I'm hearing spears are OP but I never even touched them. But if it's a balance issue they should address it or let you respec your skill points or something.
 
Basically an "EAT IT" moment.

You'll get more things to do post-"welcome to Dark Souls mother fucker" boss. And DSIII actually is crueler than average there if it helps!

EDIT: Actually... yeah, ranking from kindest to harshest openings:

Dark Souls II > Dark Souls I > Bloodborne >= Demon's Souls >>> Dark Souls III. DSII doesn't require clearing a boss or even going through the tutorial areas before getting access to leveling and buying items, DSI has a realtively easy boss to get past (with the cavaet that you need to know
to run before getting weapons
, Bloodborne lets you access a shop fairly fast and level upon ENCOUNTERING the first boss, Demon's Souls blocks leveling until after beating the first boss but the boss fight isn't really THAT hard compared to what the series can throw at you later and you can buy items beforehand, and DSIII... hope you can take on this badass motherfucker before you can move on!
I ran past the first boss in DS1. Didn't play much beyond it. I got a lot further in Bloodbourne. I probably would have finished the game but we left town for a trip and I just never got back to it.

I figured maybe DS3 would give me a complete game that I could complete since I was loving Ni Oh so much. But come on...a brutal boss with no chance to level until I pass it ten minutes into the game?

No new weapons, no weapon stances, no way to feel like you're making ANY incremental progress before a terribly shitty fight? And the controls are STILL jank?

Nah, man.
 
I personally don't feel the inventory was an issue. I just equipped the best stuff and then at the shrine when you go to offer up items, click the touchpad, it let's you mass select items.

Sell selected items.


Clean inventory.

Difficulty and other issues will be fixed as the game is still an alpha. But what a fucking alpha. I just can't wait for this game.
It was hard going back to Dark Souls/Bloodbourne after this game. I keep putting time in it even after I get waxed again and again. The bigger enemy in the key building killed me so many times, but I could keep leveling while waiting to get better with the axe. I LOVE the opportunity to get a slightly better weapon, to try new stances with enemies that are giving me trouble. The ability to add a few skill points in different stances or weapons...I just feel like the ability to make SOME progress or experiment with techniques is so much more than what Souls games offer.
 

Sayad

Member
I thought the first encounter with multiple enemies at once in Nioh demo was way harder than DSIII's first boss, really can't imagine someone having no problem completing Nioh demo yet getting stuck on DSIII's first boss!
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Downloaded the alpha a few days in, managed to finish both areas and bosses.

All in all, blown away. Hard to describe, but coming off Dark Souls III (which I adored, mind you), where that was a very familiar and equally welcome experience with a franchise I love, it was Nioh that made me feel like I had to relearn the way these games are play. And I mean, I think the Souls comparisons are valid; there's very heavy inspiration from that series, right on the nose, from top to bottom. But the heart of the combat, the nuances in how to maximise your effectiveness and efficiency, to me felt like I was back playing Demon's Souls for the first time. Where Souls has been a sensible progression of game systems, Nioh was reminiscent of that first Demon's play where I really felt I needed to take time to learn and appreciate just how everything was coming together.

And I really, really appreciate that. The alpha was, for me, a clear example of a game heavily drawing upon vision and concepts popularised by Souls, but reimagining and rebuilding them in ways that give the overall package a very distinct and original flair. Kind of the opposite of something like Lords of the Fallen, which was in many ways a straight up Souls clone. Extremely refreshing, while drawing on familiar elements in Souls that attract me to the genre in the first place.

My only glaring criticism, other than the framerate which is still pretty spotty even in action mode, is the durability balance. I like it in theory and general practice; with a ton of loot drops and item management as a key feature, the idea is by the time your stuff breaks you should have found equivilent or superior gear. And if you haven't you need to use clay/whetstone to repair, or you've badly managed your resources and suffer with a downgrade. It also encourages a lot of weapon and armour swapping for different yet entirely valid weight builds. The problem occurs when you're throwing yourself up against a single powerful enemy required to progress, that you're having a hard time mastering. It's the same problem with Bloodborne's blood vials, and for me this was evident in Nioh's Nue. I had a lot of trouble with the fight. And that's okay, because my victory was through mastery and thus very satisfying. But the gameplay feedback loop results in rapid degradation of gear wherein the only solution is to just...stop fighting the boss and force yourself to do other grindy shit in order to secure new drops. And doing that isn't challenging or fun. It's literal grind, time wasting just so you can continue with the challenge you're actually up against.

That and the menus. The menus need a lot of work, particularly how item drops are arranged. Because by the end I had so much fucking shit (and was regularly selling) that browsing my loot was nothing short of a chore. Needs a total overhaul, or categorisation based on weapon type and then sub listing of the variants you have.

Otherwise yeah, utterly adored the alpha and will be buying day one. 100% sold, unless some serious shit is present in the final build.
 

Novocaine

Member
Considering how important the stamina "active reload" is, unless the game tells you how it works right away, it fucked up. The souls method of "figure it out on your own" shouldn't apply here, it is way too fast and punishing to hope everyone figures it out.

Well I didn't figure it out on my own, amongst a bunch of other shit. But I'm not going to rat on an alpha for it. I think there will at least be a tutorial or a manual for the final game that will tell me about these things.
 

IvorB

Member
The second area is really poorly balanced, too. It's nothing but Yokai and Cyclops. It'd be like the second area of Dark Souls being nothing but Capra Demons and Black Knights, immediately. Just turns it into a shitty blaze-through to shortcuts than being able to actually enjoy the area.

Nah, second area was great. You just have to be strategic in your approach and constantly aware of your surroundings. The only times I just thought a situation is impossible was getting two ninjas on your case at the same time.
 

Dereck

Member
Whenever I read that someone does not like weapon durability and someone provides reasons for weapon/armor durability existing, they're reasons that I just don't enjoy.

An example reason is it encourages the player to better manage the weapon/armor use or to attack more wisely, to me, this just translates to make the game more frustrating than it has to be.

Even with that said, I don't think that they should completely take it out but just make it more lenient.
 

Zhao_Yun

Member
Survey results and planned adjustment points are out in Japanese..

http://www.4gamer.net/games/120/G012039/20160519080/

I am outside so haven't checked everything but it seems they are getting rid of weapon/armor durability system alltogether.

Interesting, Western players seem to have enjoyed it more than Asian/Japanese players.
Completely getting rid of the durability system seems to be a bit drastic though. Increasing durability would have been enough for me.
 

Menthuss

Member
I would've been okay with shrines restoring your durability but removing it entirely works too I suppose. Can someone translate those graphs? I'm really curious to what they say.
 

Lord Phol

Member
Didn't have any problems with the durability system in the Alpha but I'm not sad to see it being removed either. Seems like they will adjust loot drop rates as well to make up for it. I did a quick&dirty google translatation and there looks to be some changes that might make the game easier:

  • Adjustment of the enemy's attack force and defense force
  • Change the conditions under which energy becomes a non-action in a state in which less than or equal to zero
Not sure if this is good or not since I personally wasn't having much problem in level 2 after getting accustomed to the game. It might even itself out when you get into harder levels though.

Edit: A bit dissapointed that there's no mention of any boss changes. Compared to similar games I felt the bosses were really predictable with their low amount of moves and stiff animations.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Interesting, Western players seem to have enjoyed it more than Asian/Japanese players.
Completely getting rid of the durability system seems to be a bit drastic though. Increasing durability would have been enough for me.

Nobody will miss durability.
 

MMaRsu

Banned
Ehh.. I liked the durability but never had a weapon or armor break. Anytime it was getting close id just use whetstone or glue
 

Kudo

Member
OVERALL
• Add tutorials regarding the game system.
• Adjust balance mainly in the opening sections to make battles fairer.
• Improve controls and camera system.
• Improve the understandability and usability of the UI.
• Improve graphic performance


DETAILS
■ Tutorials
• Implement a training stage for tutorials on basic controls and core game
 actions.

■ Action & Controls
• Improve player & camera behavior during lock-on.
• Change the conditions under which the player character becomes
 unresponsive when the Ki Gauge is empty.
• Expand item shortcut slots.
• Revise the objects which require holding a button and the response to
 the hold input.
• Improve detection for the half-circle analog stick input.

■ Enemies
• Adjust attack and defense parameters of enemies.
• Revise enemy pursuit of the player.
• Revise superarmor (stagger/no stagger) for each enemy and attack.
• Adjust Revenant AI.

■ Level Design/Stages
• Improve exploration elements such as shortcuts, etc.
• Add hints to guide players to boss areas.
• Revise the display of objects that block the view of the player character.
• Adjust fire area damage.

■ UI
• Improve layout and displayed information.
• Adjust text size.
• When making an offering at a shrine, allow the player to perform all actions
 at once.
■ Online
• Improve online synchronization.
• Allow the host to use the Shrine menu during co-op play with a Visitor.
• Adjust the rate at which enemy parameters increase during co-op play.

■ Other
• Remove durability stat for weapons and armor.
• Adjust the drop rate for equipment.
• Add a new control type.
• Implement a flow to allow players to exit a mission.
• Fix other bugs.

Some good changes, gonna comment in a bit..
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
Knew it. Baby being thrown out with the bath water.

There's no real reason to have it though. It doesn't make the game harder, it's just another stupid thing you have to deal with from time to time. Koei should focus on having the player play the game, not grinding for whetstones and armor fixing powder every so often.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
Fair enough, but the combat speed and actions available push me to want to play a very offensive game, so why am I being punished for being offensive?

Not everyone game wants you to be a bulldog like in fighting game or run and gun rambo like some like to be in a first person shooter. Mechanics, how do they work? (I know I know don't respond to old shit)

With that being said my interest is peak had a good look at this today from a friend who knew I would love it.
 

Kudo

Member
Thank you to all who played the Nioh Alpha Demo! In just 10 days, over 850,000 gamers around the world took up the challenge of Nioh!

We also appreciate the tons of valuable feedback many of you also gave through our online survey. The dev team has read through the feedback and is coming up with improvements to make the final game even better. We're working on those improvements right now, and will have more information on the game soon!
In addition, it is safe to delete the Nioh Alpha Demo game data and save data. Deleting these data will not affect the Mark of the Conqueror.

http://teamninja-studio.com/nioh/uk/demo.html

I feel like most of the changes are for better, having the Ki depletion punishment being less strict doesn't necessarily make combat too much easier and having good learning curve is definitely something that the game needed.
Removal of durability is little sad but I do hope they will have some sort of upgrading system in the game.
And more item shortcuts, I think we're ready to have our GOTY!
 
So, a bit easier, better lock on, a decent tutorial and ditch durability?

Sounds alright. Not sure why they can't just add an easy mode though, rather than having to adjust the enemies' stats altogether.
 
And more item shortcuts, I think we're ready to have our GOTY!

I think they should move weapon switching to L3 (unless I'm forgetting a function) then have L1 and R1 act as modifiers. So you'd have neutral + 4 directions, L1 + 4 directions and R1 + 4 directions.
 
• Adjust balance mainly in the opening sections to make battles fairer.
• Change the conditions under which the player character becomes unresponsive when the Ki Gauge is empty.
• Adjust attack and defense parameters of enemies.
• Revise enemy pursuit of the player.
• Revise superarmor (stagger/no stagger) for each enemy and attack.
• Adjust Revenant AI.
Given Team Ninja's track record as of late, or rather the lack thereof, I'm already expecting full-blown casualization with these instead of actual sensible rebalancing.

Good riddance to the durability system in any case. Pointless feature.
 
never had anything break in the alpha. there was no shortage of rep. items. can't say i'll miss this system though.

i just hope they won't turn this into a game you'll play and forget. keep the challenge.
 

Tsunamo

Member
I didn't mind durablility all that much. I'm the type that endsup hoarding stuff and forgetting to sell/get rid of old item drops in games so it encouraged me a bit more to do that more often instead of forgetting about them and hoarding drops, that along with getting items for offering stuff occasionally (some of which put back into durability) felt like it had a decent balance going to it. I got back for selling, and that went back into my main weapons and armour to allow me to use them longer, it made it quite fun to me versus something like say, selling weapon drops on Borderlands games which is tedious to me.

I agree deterioration was way too fast though, and some balancing/toning down would have been fine instead of removing it entirely, but i'm not gonna complain that it's gone now.

Bit worried about a few other changes and them possibly toning down the AI, stamina and difficulty a bit too much and ruining what I loved about the Alpha so much, but i'll wait and see the next time the game appears before I go jumping the gun.
 
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