It took me 20 tries to take this boss down with summoned helpers. heh
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Nioh Co-Op is not very good
- Thread starter MasterMenace
- Start date
It took me 20 tries to take this boss down with summoned helpers. heh
I don't even own the game but I have a few friends who enjoyed the beta and then got the game only to be disappointed at the lack of co-op as it was in the demo. They told me the reasoning by the creative director and I thought, surely they must just not be explaining it well.
How does this make any sense? "We don't want you to be able to play a level blindly together because it will be too easy, but we are okay with you getting help from someone who has already beaten it." Surely the second scenario is easier than two blind players going in. It doesn't even seem like a real answer.
Haha exactly what I'm thinking. "You can't both take the test together for the first time, that will be too easy. You go finish the test and learn the answers, then you can help your friend take the test, that will be harder somehow"
*shrugs*
How does this make any sense? "We don't want you to be able to play a level blindly together because it will be too easy, but we are okay with you getting help from someone who has already beaten it." Surely the second scenario is easier than two blind players going in. It doesn't even seem like a real answer.
Haha exactly what I'm thinking. "You can't both take the test together for the first time, that will be too easy. You go finish the test and learn the answers, then you can help your friend take the test, that will be harder somehow"
*shrugs*
Twist : All your helpers were helped through this boss !
I think the reasoning behind their choice is that you are supposed to play through the game alone and summon a friend/random only when you get stuck. That's why you need a consumable to summon and you'll always summon people that had beaten the level already. You're not supposed to play the entire game in co-op, you should use it every now and then to make the game easier. Of course having the option wouldn't have hurt (there are plenty of ways to make the game easier anyway), so hopefully they'll patch full co-op in.
swearing-circle
Member
Bit disappointed. I love the souls series but kind of grew tired of the formulae during 3. The thought of playing through this whole game with my little cousin was pretty compelling though but i'm just not down for that single player struggle right now.
Will pick it up in the future but not feeling it right now.
Will pick it up in the future but not feeling it right now.
You can still co-op with randoms.
swearing-circle
Member
Fair dos. Is the system for playing with randos more streamlined than that in souls?
But you can play the whole game through coop? You can summon someone to help you right from the start, right? So what is there to stop you from summoning immediately in every level and beat every level first try with help?
It's just a game man.
Most importantly, it's their game, so they're allowed to be totalitarian.
Coriolanus
Banned
go to shrine, summon visitor, pay ochako cup, go on about your business. Game will keep looking. when they find someone they'll drop them on your game. If they dont, they refund the cup to ya.
Think only bloodborne is simpler than that, buuut.. its far easier to acquire cups than insight.
Chronospherics
Member
I think I get what you're trying to say, yeah It'd be nice if we could do the missions in the balanced mode, without having to have both beaten the mission already. I don't think that makes the co-op 'not very good', but it's a significant limitation.
With that said I don't think people jumping into this thread suggesting co-op is an 'easy mode' are wrong. The issue with this game and Souls game is that the vast majority of bosses are designed to attack a single target. They have not been crafted with co-op play in mind, and that means there is always a single player that doesn't need to take the risks associated with fighting them.
Co-op in both the regular, and balanced mode are very easy compared to the core game, because at almost all times, one player is free to attack the enemy in the back, while the other takes the brunt of the attacks. On most bosses this just means one player needs to kite the boss and evade, while the other attacks them for free damage, and repeat.
Unlike singleplayer, this results in a significant reduction in the risk reward and careful timing that come with the eb and flow of a single player fight. These bosses aren't designed for co-operative play and therefore while compensatory systems do help (adding a shared lifebar) the fights are still relatively trivial by comparison, requiring significantly less strategic depth, reduced understanding the enemies attack patterns, and when your attack windows are.
It would be neat if the bosses changed for co-operative play. Becoming more challenging in some way or another that validated the co-operative component. Perhaps some bosses would adapt to fight two players, others might summon help, etc?
With that said I don't think people jumping into this thread suggesting co-op is an 'easy mode' are wrong. The issue with this game and Souls game is that the vast majority of bosses are designed to attack a single target. They have not been crafted with co-op play in mind, and that means there is always a single player that doesn't need to take the risks associated with fighting them.
Co-op in both the regular, and balanced mode are very easy compared to the core game, because at almost all times, one player is free to attack the enemy in the back, while the other takes the brunt of the attacks. On most bosses this just means one player needs to kite the boss and evade, while the other attacks them for free damage, and repeat.
Unlike singleplayer, this results in a significant reduction in the risk reward and careful timing that come with the eb and flow of a single player fight. These bosses aren't designed for co-operative play and therefore while compensatory systems do help (adding a shared lifebar) the fights are still relatively trivial by comparison, requiring significantly less strategic depth, reduced understanding the enemies attack patterns, and when your attack windows are.
It would be neat if the bosses changed for co-operative play. Becoming more challenging in some way or another that validated the co-operative component. Perhaps some bosses would adapt to fight two players, others might summon help, etc?
King Gilga
Member
How is that anywhere simpler than 'see a sign and click summon'.
swearing-circle
Member
Interesting indeed. Thanks for the info!
Augemitbutter
Member
the truth.
UziTheBeast
Banned
What a shame. I was looking forward to play this in co-op. Ah well it will be great regardless.
Ghostshark
Member
Fuck, my friend bought the game for both of us to play co-op based on the demo. It's on us for not doing more research, but not having the option is bullshit with the misleading content in the demo.
It is for visitors who are being summoned. Just go to the menu and bam, you're in.
You can, it's like they want to nudge you towards the "right" way to play but they don't want to force you. Yes, it's dumb. If they really wanted to limit co-op they should've given you a fixed number of summon items, like 3 summons for the entire game and after that you're on your own. But maybe it would've been too punishing.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Worst helpers
I was ready to come in here to post that Nioh is definitely meant to be played solo and that the co-op somewhat makes sense, however, after reading a lot of your responses, I see the merit of allowing co-op without the need to complete a level.
Personally, I still like the current setup as I'm someone who wants to get through the game entirely by myself at first, and only then start playing co-op, but I see how someone on the opposite spectrum who bought the game in hopes of playing co-op entirely through with someone, would be pissed.
Since it wouldn't affect me in any sort of way, I'd say stay vocal about this. Team Ninja already made a statement once regarding this, so I'm guessing the more people make them realize that it's something they want changed, the more probable it is that they'll change it.
Personally, I still like the current setup as I'm someone who wants to get through the game entirely by myself at first, and only then start playing co-op, but I see how someone on the opposite spectrum who bought the game in hopes of playing co-op entirely through with someone, would be pissed.
Since it wouldn't affect me in any sort of way, I'd say stay vocal about this. Team Ninja already made a statement once regarding this, so I'm guessing the more people make them realize that it's something they want changed, the more probable it is that they'll change it.
Chronospherics
Member
I'm the same as you in that I want to beat the game alone first but at the same time I will also probably make new characters and play with friends later down the line. In that respect it would be really cool to be able to play it in co-op without one of us having to beat the stage again first.
Clarkus Darkus
Member
That's the thing, The 3 pre-release versions allowed that same feature, Blind playing the mission together, And with more challenge of no check points, Back to the start when the revive bar depletes, Extra layout for enemies etc.
People who played that last chance trial bought the game expecting that version of the game, Like in Bloodborne and Dark Souls.
It's not even a challenge issue, It's the fact nothing was mentioned between the 3 weeks of the last trial and the games release, It took buying the game to realise it. And the only answer is " too easy ".... yet you can still summon someone who's wiped the area already.
DrDamn
Member
I think the point is that blind co-op could easily become the default for some when the idea is that you try by yourself and revert to summoning when you really need to. That way it is still essentially a SP game with help when and if you need it. Think of it more as an encouragement to at least try and experience the game as they wanted you to.
Think of it like a kids homework - something in a subject they enjoy obviously
. The idea is that they do it themselves, but if they need some help they can ask a parent/peer who understands it. The benefit (satisfaction) of the kid is greater this way than if they had just done it with the parent giving them half the answers from the start. They are also then better equipped to take on next weeks homework.I completely agree with their reasoning. However, I hope they give players the option just so all this drama will cease and people can focus on the game. More options are always good, too!
And I hope if they do allow players to play coop from start to finish they put this description: For those faint of heart who cannot take on the journey alone.
And I hope if they do allow players to play coop from start to finish they put this description: For those faint of heart who cannot take on the journey alone.
Still doesn't make any sense.
I think the point is that blind co-op could easily become the default for some when the idea is that you try by yourself and revert to summoning when you really need to. That way it is still essentially a SP game with help when and if you need it. Think of it more as an encouragement to at least try and experience the game as they wanted you to.
Think of it like a kids homework - something in a subject they enjoy obviously
If Team Ninja wanted that they should have restricted coop to be unlocked for the player after certain amount of deaths in said level. Currently you can still summon someone the moment you start a mission without even trying the mission. Also to make things dumber you are only allowed to summon someone who is higher level than you, who probably has better gear than you and someone who knows the layout.
I can turn it to your homework analogy. Current system works so that kids can ask their parents or teachers for help. They are not allowed to ask from their peers who haven't done said homework yet. Reason for this is that it would be too easy to ask help from your peers.
If you both go blindly into the mission neither will know what is coming up and both need to figure out what to do. This was deemed too easy but they allowed you to have a partner who has actually done it and can do almost all the heavy lifting for you.
DrDamn
Member
Ok ask yourself why anyone would play the game summoning higher help after help, level after level. It would be like activating a cheat code. Very few people will play like that as it would ruin the game for them, therefore they play as they are encouraged to play and the way they want you to play - SP with co op as a backup or last resort. If you let people summon blind then a lot more people would play like that all the way all through the game and that's not the vision of the game designer. It's their perogative to design the game that way. I can see why people would want to play co op all the way through, but at the same time respect the conviction of the developers to present their game how they want it to be experienced.
It sounds like they underestimated the number of people who wanted to do full co-op runs.
They probably could have adjusted difficulty to make it more possible if they had considered it earlier on.
While having a partner running blind is harder, in terms of risk vs reward you have to consider that in one case 2 people are progressing through the game faster and easier while in the current scenario only one person gets progressed.
They probably could have adjusted difficulty to make it more possible if they had considered it earlier on.
While having a partner running blind is harder, in terms of risk vs reward you have to consider that in one case 2 people are progressing through the game faster and easier while in the current scenario only one person gets progressed.
Clarkus Darkus
Member
The only saving grace for me and my friend is the fact we use the primary account trick, So basically we got the game for half price so we'll treat it as such.
I think they clearly under valued the co-op nature of todays games being popular, Especially when they dangle that carrot infront of your face 3 weeks before release with the demo.
I respect the decision made, But when they allow summoning of someone who's wiped the area already then that decision should be questioned and called out.
I think they clearly under valued the co-op nature of todays games being popular, Especially when they dangle that carrot infront of your face 3 weeks before release with the demo.
I respect the decision made, But when they allow summoning of someone who's wiped the area already then that decision should be questioned and called out.
Because people don't care about the challenge or they have more fun while playing with other people. It doesn't ruin it for them. That is how they want to play it and the game gives them the ability to do so. Just that they can't progress with their friends.
Developers currently present their game so that it can be played through using coop without ever playing solo. Again if the coop was meant to be last resort thing then it shouldn't be unlocked immediately because that implies it is okay to summon from the start.
Giving people the ability to summon players who haven't beaten the level yet wouldn't lower the number of players who go it through solo. It would just make the game more appealing to wider audience.
Coriolanus
Banned
you gotta find the sign.
Zantetsuken
Member
I think they let you run through the game together in the beta for testing purposes. It doesn't really take away from the game in my opinion. It's meant to be played solo. There are plenty of other games out there for a multiplayer experience.
Then why is co-op in the game?
This is spot-on. The people saying 'well why is coop in the game at all??' should read this.
Souls and Souls-like games have their difficulty as a major selling point, and coop does indeed make the games significantly easier. That doesn't mean the devs want to remove the option completely -- they just want to make it more limited in use, so that you can use it to break past a brick-wall boss rather than be stuck and frustrated for too long.
To me the Nioh system sounds fine -- I played the Souls games largely alone, only calling in help if I had failed a boss 5 times or more and was getting frustrated rather than getting more determined to beat the boss. From the sounds of it I could do the exact same in Nioh, which sounds fine.
I understand why people are annoyed by this change, since the demo was different, but Souls games have not been all-or-nothing on the coop front -- it's always been limited coop, rather than 'coop everything' or 'coop nothing'. This sounds pretty similar and fits the Souls-like gameplay of the game.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
Because getting help from/helping strangers is a completely different, but legitimate approach for this type of game. It wouldn't be fair if you could just waltz through with a few friends all synchronized over voice chat.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
This. I think if the majority of feedback takes on this tone and attitude chances are TN will listen judging by how they handled feedback between betas.
God, this thread is a fucking dumpster fire.
Team Ninja removes weapon degradation from the alpha because the majority of people didn't like it? "Good job team ninja listening to user feed back"
Team ninja explains why coop was changed, a large portion of people hate it " good job team ninja respecting your vision for a game. This thing that has no effect on me what so ever but is pissing off a large portion of your fans should not be changed"
Absolutely Fucking ridiculous.
Team Ninja removes weapon degradation from the alpha because the majority of people didn't like it? "Good job team ninja listening to user feed back"
Team ninja explains why coop was changed, a large portion of people hate it " good job team ninja respecting your vision for a game. This thing that has no effect on me what so ever but is pissing off a large portion of your fans should not be changed"
Absolutely Fucking ridiculous.
But nothing actually stops you from doing that. You can still summon your friend and use voice chat. It just has this weird limitation that the one that needs to be summoned has to have beaten the level.
Chronospherics
Member
Oh come off it, it's reasonable for people to dislike a change or for a developer to missread the desires of their community. This is especially likely to be the case when TM's own justification doesn't quite add up, I think they miss interpreted this one and implemented the wrong change.
Personally I think that not enough people discussed how much they appreciated how the co-op worked because they thought it was assumed that wasn't something that wasn't likely to change.
I did feel that summoning had the capacity to make the game too easy in the alpha and demos, but what I did was chose not to summon. It's even worse now, as the players that join you are of a much higher standard (they have already beaten the level).
Personally rather than more restrictive I'd like to see co-op feature less restrictions (as in, not needing to have both beaten the level before) but a little variation so that it's not just an easier version of the same level. Add a few enemies in so that previous instances of one versus one encounters become 2 vs 2, provide a few surprises for players who've already beaten the level and think they know what they're doing, and perhaps most significantly adjust the bosses so that they accomodate co-operative play.
Every boss in the game should have one or two attacks or forms designed to combat two players. At the moment they are almost all 'single target' foes, but it makes sense that they would fight differently if confronted by two foes. There's some really cool things they could do with co-operative play if they embraced it rather than hiding it away. After all, co-op makes the game easier because they've designed the game that way, so to restrict it away is only to hide a problem that they haven't addressed.
Like I say, there's some really cool things you could do. Imagine if bosses could split in two, summon help, featured more attacks capable of being directed at multiple players. What if certain bosses could summon enemy Phantoms (enemy players) to help them in the fight? There's loads of cool things they could do that would allow co-operative play to feature in the game without simply making it tacked on. The shared lifebar system is neat but ultimately it's a compensatory system that tries to hide the real problems with co-op in this type of game. The enemies and stages were clearly not designed for co-operative play, and if they want it to be well-integrated then making some more meaningful accommodations in the level design itself would be the most interesting approach.
While it is perhaps too late for that, I don't think restricting co-op away from people, especially away from people wanting to participate in co-op with blind players (players who like them, have never seen the level before) is in any way the answer to the challenges that co-operative systems in these type of games need to overcome.
Clarkus Darkus
Member
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/nioh-ps4/
Read that for those that try say the games meant to be played solo.
On Playstations own website, The 2nd feature they advertise is team up with a friend!
On 3 beta's leading up to the game they let you team with a friend
The game gets released and the devs say it's not meant to be played that way, After letting us play that way 3 times, And advertising it as a feature on the publishers website.
So it's not the problem that it changed from the beta, It's the fact we wasn't told of this change until after buying the game.
Read that for those that try say the games meant to be played solo.
On Playstations own website, The 2nd feature they advertise is team up with a friend!
On 3 beta's leading up to the game they let you team with a friend
The game gets released and the devs say it's not meant to be played that way, After letting us play that way 3 times, And advertising it as a feature on the publishers website.
So it's not the problem that it changed from the beta, It's the fact we wasn't told of this change until after buying the game.
cripterion
Member
EDIT : Wrong thread
Agent Matt
Member
Count me as one of the disappointed. I'm still going to play the whole game co-op, I just wish I didn't have to jump through hoops to do it.
did you quote the wrong person? I agree with you
Clarkus Darkus
Member
Well i just played abit of Nioh, Did the first mission and side mission, So went ahead and tried the level 15 or 20 twilight mission.
Alot of revenants on floor, Much higher level than me but wanted there equipment etc.
So summoned a visitor, A random guy.
The man came in and completely wiped out everything in sight with ease, He had dual lightning katana's, Pure white armour which looked real good.
Then led me to the shrines and then eventual boss, It took him less than a minute to wipe the boss out, Completely over levelled.
I did a hit here and there, Probably tickled the enemies if anything.
As grateful as i was, It would have been alot harder had it been just me and a friend doing it like in the 3 beta's
So their logic of making it harder failed big time.
Alot of revenants on floor, Much higher level than me but wanted there equipment etc.
So summoned a visitor, A random guy.
The man came in and completely wiped out everything in sight with ease, He had dual lightning katana's, Pure white armour which looked real good.
Then led me to the shrines and then eventual boss, It took him less than a minute to wipe the boss out, Completely over levelled.
I did a hit here and there, Probably tickled the enemies if anything.
As grateful as i was, It would have been alot harder had it been just me and a friend doing it like in the 3 beta's
So their logic of making it harder failed big time.
Chronospherics
Member
Oh, I guess I misinterpreted then. My bad, no worries. That'll teach me not to reply to people at 3am
Oh shit, I forgot this thread existed.
Couldn't disagree more and more and more now that I've played it.
The straight up co-op mode (with lives/revives), I got matchmade into a new stage (bug?), but the helping system is great. If you summon someone, they will be support because they've done it before. It's a great tool when looking for help.
Plus, as a phantom etc. you can't use Shrines etc. so the game is balanced around the fact that you can't just go through the whole thing and stock up just before the boss with the same dude.
It's very much done on purpose and it's fantastic.
Couldn't disagree more and more and more now that I've played it.
The straight up co-op mode (with lives/revives), I got matchmade into a new stage (bug?), but the helping system is great. If you summon someone, they will be support because they've done it before. It's a great tool when looking for help.
Plus, as a phantom etc. you can't use Shrines etc. so the game is balanced around the fact that you can't just go through the whole thing and stock up just before the boss with the same dude.
It's very much done on purpose and it's fantastic.