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[SMG]

I was wondering in the box office thread how an animated film like this got made for only $19m.

Now I know :/

Hopefully they get sued and that 19million needs an asterisk next to it.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Are there lists of games that underwent similar stuff?

A list would require it's own thread. It's all too common in the game industry.

 

[Calamari41]

Sony only pays the studios that offers them a attractive price. They generally don't interfere the studio's manpower and politics, this is nitrogen own problem.

Are the Sony execs and producers not savvy enough to realize how such a cutthroat price is able to be offered? Walmart knows why they can get clothes for pennies. Apple knows why their production costs are so low. Sony doesn't know why Sausage Party only cost $19 million including salaries for a pretty star studded cast?

 

[Divvy]

Pretty disgusting, yet not surprising for the industry.

As an animator, I wish people were generally more aware of how hard we work, and how poorly we are generally treated to produce their entertainment.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Are the Sony execs and producers not savvy enough to realize how such a cutthroat price is able to be offered? Walmart knows why they can get clothes for pennies. Apple knows why their production costs are so low. Sony doesn't know why Sausage Party only cost $19 million including salaries for a pretty star studded cast?

The Ratchet & Clank movie only costed 20 million. Those types of cheap animated movies get made. Sony probably thought this was the same scenario.

Edit: Norm of the North was made for 18 million. Also don't watch that animated abomination.

 

[DirtyLarry]

Damn, sorry to read this as I saw the movie over the weekend and absolutely loved in. In fact I defended the animation on a discussion on Facebook, one of my friends who had not seen it said he heard the animation was "B Movie" level and I said absolutely not. That whomever was behind it nailed the expressions of the characters themselves even if it was not the most technically impressive stuff out there (this person kept using PIxar as a reference).

 

[Meeps]

...

There are many more but I hope the original story gains traction and they get bad press over this.

You should contact Cartoon Brew if you feel comfortable doing so. https://twitter.com/cartoonbrew/status/765082683110195200

 

[2San]

That's the thing too, company and country culture will dictate the OT culture which sucks. If your company comes from a country in Europe they tend to work till late night then get ready to feel bad and basically shamed when you don't stay late.

Early on in my company my team members would joke around about how early I would leave from the office, which is to say I'd leave at the 8 hours mark. Of course they were just fucking with me, we're all work buddies, but even with jokes you now feel you gotta stay until late.

I'm guilty of making the same jokes. We have paid overtime though and it wasn't consistent. If for example you have a prior engagement (this includes going to the gym), people where fine with people leaving on time.

 

[djplaeskool]

Damn, sorry to read this as I saw the movie over the weekend and absolutely loved in.

Yeah. Hopefully some amends can be made, because I thought the end product was great.

 

[jmdajr]

That sucks.

 

[NHarmonic.]

Yup I can verify these stories are true. I didn't get credited at the end because I left for another studio even though I worked on a good %20 of the final movie.

Dude, that's rough, fuck them.

 

[WillyFive]

As an animator, this makes me really upset, but also not surprised whatsoever. I wish more of these news got out, but it's hard to make people care.

 

[Calamari41]

The Ratchet & Clank movie only costed 20 million. Those types of cheap animated movies get made. Sony probably thought this was the same scenario.

Edit: Norm of the North was made for 18 million. Also don't watch that animated abomination.

But Sony would also know the salaries for the cast, which I cannot imagine being similar. Sausage Party doesn't have Robert Downey Jr or prime Johnny Depp, but that collection certainly can't be cheap enough to justify the same budget as Ratchet or Norm of the North.

If anything the similar budget kind of proves my point. If I'm putting out an animated movie with Seth Rogen, Kristen Wiig, James Franco, Jonah Hill, Michael Cera, Salma Hayek, Ed Norton, and more, and then I see that the end product has the same budget as Norm of the North? I'm no Hollywood insider but even I can look at that situation and see that the money is not going to the animation studio.

 

[commedieu]

As an animator, this makes me really upset, but also not surprised whatsoever. I wish more of these news got out, but it's hard to make people care.

We've got to get some leverage over studios. It's hard to talk unions when so many new grads will step up, or India/outsource.

 

[Defuser]

Are the Sony execs and producers not savvy enough to realize how such a cutthroat price is able to be offered? Walmart knows why they can get clothes for pennies. Apple knows why their production costs are so low. Sony doesn't know why Sausage Party only cost $19 million including salaries for a pretty star studded cast?

Why should Sony care? They were offered this attractive price by the studo,went with it and it was successful for Sony.

That's how the animation and vfx studios been doing it for years, they undercut each other in order to secure the contract, the fault is entirely on Nitrogen.

 

[Divvy]

But Sony would also know the salaries for the cast, which I cannot imagine being similar. Sausage Party doesn't have Robert Downey Jr or prime Johnny Depp, but that collection certainly can't be cheap enough to justify the same budget as Ratchet or Norm of the North.

If anything the similar budget kind of proves my point. If I'm putting out an animated movie with Seth Rogen, Kristen Wiig, James Franco, Jonah Hill, Michael Cera, Salma Hayek, Ed Norton, and more, and then I see that the end product has the same budget as Norm of the North? I'm no Hollywood insider but even I can look at that situation and see that the money is not going to the animation studio.

Sony/Disney etc... does not give a shit, as long as it's cheap and it gets done.

 

[Calamari41]

Why should Sony care? They were offered this attractive price by the studo,went with it and it was successful for Sony.

That's how the animation and vfx studios been doing it for years, they undercut each other in order to secure the contract, the fault is entirely on Nitrogen.

Sony/Disney etc... does not give a shit, as long as it's cheap and it gets done.

I'm not saying they should or should not care. I'm just responding to the people who seem to be holding guys like Rogen on a pedestal saying things like "He's such a good guy, I bet he had no clue. Hopefully he does something when he finds out!"

My only point is that he either knew or isn't competent as a producer. Same with the execs. I mean, you guys are saying they don't give a shit. That's obviously true, and I agree. I'm saying that they know what's going on, that's all.

 

[Gitaroo]

Sony/Disney etc... does not give a shit, as long as it's cheap and it gets done.

yup, I don't understand why people don't see this, Apple really care whats going on in the factories that build iphones? No, only after the hundred of billions they made they put out some fake stunt and pretending they care.

 

[everyday math]

Some other fun moments from my year at Nitrogen

-They fired the CG Supervisor mid production (one of many supervisors who got fired during the show) because he would say "we can't do this in budget" to Greg and Conrad's ideas. Which by the way both were the worst directors I worked with and had zero direction or vision. Their idea of directing was "lets throw shit at a wall until one sticks" so you would waste a ton of work until it gets approved and sometimes that would get unapproved in the future because they were in a bad mood.

-There was always this weird rivalry between the directors. Mostly with Greg because while Conrad was a co-director on a bunch of DW movies all Greg has under his name is the Thomas the Train episodes nitrogen did and he felt like he had to prove he is the top dog. He would get SUPER mad when he walks into dailies and finds animators talking to Conrad before he is in the room. He actually fired an animation supervisor over this.

-They put a lot of the ex nitrogen people whose only qualification was working at nitrogen before in supervisor positions. These people had no clue how to make an animated movie. At the end Annapurna had to bring in their own VFX supervisor and producer to get the movie done because they realized Nitrogen was never going to deliver otherwise.

-In my 10+ years in this industry I never worked at a studio where so many people quit/walked out and got fired during one project.


There are many more but I hope the original story gains traction and they get bad press over this.

Wow fuck them

 

[FlyinJ]

I worked for a AAA game developer who would pull shit like this.

Work every weekend, and if you dare to quit, you're off the credits no matter how long you've worked on the project.

Absolutely toxic.

 

[Defuser]

I'm not saying they should or should not care. I'm just responding to the people who seem to be holding guys like Rogen on a pedestal saying things like "He's such a good guy, I bet he had no clue. Hopefully he does something when he finds out!"

My only point is that he either knew or isn't competent as a producer. Same with the execs. I mean, you guys are saying they don't give a shit. That's obviously true, and I agree. I'm saying that they know what's going on, that's all.

Execs don't really care for the drama as long as the they got the results. Same probably goes for Seth Rogen, he doesn't care as long he got the results. Besides, neither Seth nor Sony have the right to interfere another company's manpower and politics unless they own it or have a stake in it.

 

[gutter_trash]

the sad truth of FX houses and CG studios.

Remember Life of Pi? when Rhythm & Hues (studio) closed shop right after completing the CG work. Ang Lee never acknowledged their hard work when he received his Academy Award.

Without Rhythm & Hues the movie wouldn't have been posible

 

[Messofanego]

Would the animators want us to boycott the movie by not supporting it? Does that send a message about the labour issues? Or does it send the message that a R-rated animated movie is just not worth it?

Would animators be satisfied if they just get the credits correct?

 

[Divvy]

I'm not saying they should or should not care. I'm just responding to the people who seem to be holding guys like Rogen on a pedestal saying things like "He's such a good guy, I bet he had no clue. Hopefully he does something when he finds out!"

My only point is that he either knew or isn't competent as a producer. Same with the execs. I mean, you guys are saying they don't give a shit. That's obviously true, and I agree. I'm saying that they know what's going on, that's all.

He might not have known, usually the animation is just shopped off to the lowest bidding company, and the clients don't really have any understanding of what is happening at the studio. There's a certain stockholm syndrome in the animation culture that just accepts situations like this without public complaint, so it might not have gotten up the food chain at all. The communication between the client and the studio is usually only about production, and I wouldn't imagine workplace complaints would ever reach someone like Rogen.

Would the animators want us to boycott the movie by not supporting it? Does that send a message about the labour issues? Or does it send the message that a R-rated animated movie is just not worth it?

Would animators be satisfied if they just get the credits correct?

I don't think boycotts would be effective at all, and yeah it would send the wrong message.

An awareness campaign of some kind would be ideal I think. Send letters to Seth Rogen maybe.

I'm not really sure what solution would be viable, without procductions just cutting their losses and shipping animation to overseas studios.

 

[gutter_trash]

Would the animators want us to boycott the movie by not supporting it? Does that send a message about the labour issues? Or does it send the message that a R-rated animated movie is just not worth it?

Would animators be satisfied if they just get the credits correct?

as an animator myself, learning this news, it affects my choice of which movie I will give my money to at the box office

so basically, yeah. I'm going to boycott the movie

 

[cheezcake]

Welp I was planning to watch this movie on Saturday

Not anymore

 

[WillyFive]

Would the animators want us to boycott the movie by not supporting it? Does that send a message about the labour issues? Or does it send the message that a R-rated animated movie is just not worth it?

Would animators be satisfied if they just get the credits correct?

Boycotting rarely works, outrage on social media is often more effective and visible.

Spoiler

Speaking of totally impossible things animators want, however (like proper work conditions); I personally would want to be credited alongside the voice actor of the character I animated (considering my work would be at the very least half (and realistically, the majority) of the illusion), but that ain't ever happening.

 

[Timeaisis]

Disgusting. Not seeing this. I can't support a studio like that.

Can't believe so many went uncredited, too.

 

[Divvy]

Boycotting rarely works, outrage on social media is often more effective and visible.

Speaking of totally impossible things animators want, however (like proper work conditions); I personally would want to be credited alongside the voice actor of the character I animated (considering my work would be at the very least half (and realistically, the majority) of the illusion), but that ain't ever happening.

This.

You'll only send the message that R-rated animation does not sell

At least send a letter to Sony or Rogen if you are going to boycott

 

[frontovik]

Certainly not going to entertain the idea of a screening after this.

 

[Durden77]

Wow, what a shitty thing. Just saw the movie last night and had a blast, but this just puts a depressing spin on it. Hope they get their dues.

We waited until after the credits to see if there were any extra scenes and I did notice the credits seemed unusually small.

 

[Calamari41]

He might not have known, usually the animation is just shopped off to the lowest bidding company, and the clients don't really have any understanding of what is happening at the studio. There's a certain stockholm syndrome in the animation culture that just accepts situations like this without public complaint, so it might not have gotten up the food chain at all. The communication between the client and the studio is usually only about production, and I wouldn't imagine workplace complaints would ever reach someone like Rogen.

Is due diligence really that bad in Hollywood? We audit and investigate all of our suppliers, especially new ones. Do producers and executives not understand how pricing works?

If I go to the supermarket and see a brand selling steaks for one dollar per pound, I can easily infer quite a lot from that information without needing to walk the factory floor. Are Hollywood execs really so bad at this that they can get a quote for pennies on the dollar and not be able to infer anything about conditions at the studio? I don't think anybody would buy Apple execs saying "hey we just take bids for production orders, we had no clue conditions were like that at Foxconn."

 

[Divvy]

Is due diligence really that bad in Hollywood? We audit and investigate all of our suppliers, especially new ones. Do producers and executives not understand how pricing works?

If I go to the supermarket and see a brand selling steaks for one dollar per pound, I can easily infer quite a lot from that information without needing to walk the factory floor. Are Hollywood execs really so bad at this that they can get a quote for pennies on the dollar and not be able to infer anything about conditions at the studio? I don't think anybody would buy Apple execs saying "hey we just take bids for production orders, we had no clue conditions were like that at Foxconn."

As long as the studios deliver on quality and reasonably close to deadlines, then no they don't care.

 

[heliosRAzi]

They need to unionize. Simple as that. Writers, actors, directors, and a whole slew of professions in Hollywood are unionized.

 

[Calamari41]

As long as the studios deliver on quality and reasonably close to deadlines, then no they don't care.

But that's not what I'm trying to figure out. I know they don't care, and it's clear that they don't. I'm wondering if they know. It seems crazy to me that they don't know that a place that's quoting them a price in line with or less than Norm of the North is going to have terrible conditions.

 

[Divvy]

They need to unionize. Simple as that. Writers, actors, directors, and a whole slew of professions in Hollywood are unionized.

Unionizing will help animators working on feature films, but would screw over TV animators as those projects would just get sent overseas.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Would the animators want us to boycott the movie by not supporting it? Does that send a message about the labour issues? Or does it send the message that a R-rated animated movie is just not worth it?

Would animators be satisfied if they just get the credits correct?

Spread the news about this. Get Seth Rogen and Sony to know about this. Boycotting isn't gonna change anything especially since it already made back it's budget and then some over the weekend. It's tough on whether or not you should still see this. This isn't an MGSV scenario where Kojima's team got credited for it's creation. If you really want to see it at this point try to get a cheap ticket or pay for another movie ticket and sneak into it.

 

[Professor Renegade]

This is probably the exact sort of thing that I would have expected from a movie like this tbh.

 

[Toothless]

Well... now I feel bad about this paragraph from my review:

Vernon and Tiernan do a truly great job bringing Rogen and Goldberg's vision to life. Their animation direction is top notch with delightful visual sight gags and small details that bring the world of Shopwell's to life. It's worth pointing out the film only has a $19 million production budget, ridiculously cheap for CGI animation. Yet Vernon and Tiernan somehow manage to stretch that so far that, even though it's clearly not Pixar-level, it would certainly hold its own against the lower-budget big animated movies (Illumination to name a studio). Also, even though the film's shocking and highly publicized finale is from the pages of Rogen and Goldberg's script, credit must be given to Vernon and Tiernan who make an already insane sequence one of the most memorable scenes of the year with constant craziness going on the background of the shots and perfectly putting the focus where it belongs. This film is as much their achievement as Rogen and Goldberg's.

I imagine Ellison was aware of it, but hopefully Rogen will be too. Pretty sure a sequel is gonna happen with its B.O. numbers; I could see them moving production to Sony Animation proper and bringing along just Conrad (judging off what I've read, it's mostly Greg's fault in this stuff).

 

[sans_pants]

Passion profession. Like teaching and social work. There's millions willing to do it for shit pay because they love doing it. There's an army of animators willing to work for peanuts and accept being treated like shit just so they can say they worked on a Pixar film or the next Disney film.

All of film is a passion profession. Vfx work still takes a ton of talent

 

[NYCmetsfan]

 

[Messofanego]

Spread the news about this. Get Seth Rogen and Sony to know about this. Boycotting isn't gonna change anything especially since it already made back it's budget and then some over the weekend. It's tough on whether or not you should still see this. This isn't an MGSV scenario where Kojima's team got credited for it's creation. If you really want to see it at this point try to get a cheap ticket or pay for another movie ticket and sneak into it.

Yeah, already tweeted to them about this.

 

[AuthenticM]

wow, fuck this

 

[Divvy]

But that's not what I'm trying to figure out. I know they don't care, and it's clear that they don't. I'm wondering if they know. It seems crazy to me that they don't know that a place that's quoting them a price in line with or less than Norm of the North is going to have terrible conditions.

What I mean is that they don't care to know.

 

[Luigi87]

Since seeing the Wkd BO thread yesterday, I was wondering how this only had a $19M budget... Now I see why.

 

[MrGerbils]

Animation, vfx, motion design, etc all really need to unionize.

The fact that there's a lot of hungry students looking for work shouldn't matter. There's thousands of hungry screenwriters, actors, directors, agents, composers, teamsters, editors, etc etc and yet they're all unionized.

 

[sans_pants]

Animation, vfx, motion design, etc all really need to unionize.

The fact that there's a lot of hungry students looking for work shouldn't matter. There's thousands of hungry screenwriters, actors, directors, agents, composers, teamsters, editors, etc etc and yet they're all unionized.

It really just comes down to Hollywood has been around for a hundred years and vfx work wasn't there at the beginning. Starting a union in this day and age is not the same

 

[Abounder]

Animation, vfx, motion design, etc all really need to unionize.

The fact that there's a lot of hungry students looking for work shouldn't matter. There's thousands of hungry screenwriters, actors, directors, agents, composers, teamsters, editors, etc etc and yet they're all unionized.

This right here. In the article the animators even made a petition, they need to go a step further and fully organize themselves or they will get easily bullied.

 

[CyclopsRock]

They need to unionize. Simple as that. Writers, actors, directors, and a whole slew of professions in Hollywood are unionized.

It's totally different, though. Animation, like VFX, is almost entirely comoditised. You can go to 10 different places to get your VFX done and they'll likely all be largely the same quality. Yeah, some studios have their specialities, but for the most part the quality bar is incredibly high, and they can be all around the world. It could be ILM in San Fran or Framestore in London or Pixo in Germany or MPC in Vancouver etc.

With the guys in Hollywood, if you don't work with the union, you're basically fucked because the that's, physically, geographically, where the films get made for the most part. Some get made in the UK and a few other spots, but when you need local talent, unionising is significantly easier.

Which isn't to say (as someone who works in VFX) that I necessarily don't support unionising, but you have to understand that it's just different to grips and gaffers and even directors and writers, because that first pair is geographically relevant and the latter pair aren't comoditised even if they're done in large teams sometimes.

 

[GabeTheGrouch76]

Absolutely revolting behavior. Hopefully the animators can have their day and get compensation, in court or otherwise.