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North Korea arrests US student.

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I would say it's one of the safest places in the world to visit. Just have some common sense and don't be stupid.


I'm more worried about North Korea being stupid. Like deciding I was a good hostage if they happen to go over the top while I'm there or misinterpreting something slightly out of line as something much worse and using that as a pretense to detain me. That's an actual, real risk of visiting there.

Plenty of other places to get a cultural experience from without internment in a forced labor camp out there as a possibility.

also, sounding a lot like victim blaming fyi
 

Althane

Member
Something feels wrong about touring a place like this.

Giving money to a tyrannical regime? Touring a place where people are starved and beaten to death in political prisoner camps?

A country that regularly uses threat of war to extort food from other countries?

Nah, what'd be wrong with touring that?

Edit: And now because of this comment, I can't go to North Korea.

I'm really torn up about that, obviously.
 
Sup.

Two years and many other countries later, still would go again.

You get to see the staged stuff, and some really poor stuff. It can't be hidden, the country is insanely poor. You get to see the difference of the ruling party's people and the rest of the country. You get to see communism in action (or 'juche' as they'd like to label it).

Statistically speaking, North Korea an extremely safe tourist destination. Petty crime against tourists doesn't exist (take a guess why) and car crashes are virtually impossible, as there are almost no cars. Of course, if you are the one tourist in five thousand who gets fucked, for whatever political bargaining chip reason, then you are indeed really very, very fucked.

The moral dilemma, as many rightly point out, is contributing money to the corrupt regime vs. giving local people some external interaction and keeping them up to date with Apple Watches and GoPros and what not. My view was that the few thousand tourists that visit annually bring a pitiful two-three million dollars a year to the country, which doesn't even buy Kim-Jong Un a full season of Rodman. So the govenment gets an absolute majority of its money elsewhere, through scamming aid for example, and tourism is mostly "just" morally suspect, rather than an actual contributor to the wealth of the regime in any meaningful way.

They're not animals in a zoo for you to gawk at.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't think that's really comparable here....
It's people visiting another country. This is normal and it's what people do all over the world.

The argument against not wanting to fund the NK government is sound.

An argument against going to the country at all to see these people and how they live is bizzare.

Today has been a day here full of crazy stupid shit being said but this literally might take top prize.

NYC is not comparable to North fucking Korea.
What's crazy stupid is acting like interacting with another culture is "like visiting animals in a zoo".

What elitism. This isn't a nature preserve. It's half of Korea.
 

onken

Member
Giving money to that regime is abhorrent.

Isn't that the guy who started a thread white knighting "tourism" in North Korea?

Also proclaimed the women to be "the most beautiful in Asia" and provided this picture as "evidence":

VFeYs7R.png
 
It's people visiting another country. This is normal and it's what people do all over the world.

The argument against not wanting to fund the NK government is sound.

An argument against going to the country at all to see these people and how they live is bizzare.

He was literally saying people should go to see how these trapped people live their lives.
 

entremet

Member
I'd love to visit North Korea personally, but it would be probably never be under the current regime as is.

I can't support such ruthlessness.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
He was literally saying people should go to see how these trapped people live their lives.

Don't double down on this...
That's what tourism is. All of it. Seeing how other people live their lives.

Your argument is wierd.
 
That's what tourism is. All of it. Seeing how other people live their lives.

Your argument is wierd.
Don't triple down on this...

I go to NYC to see live theatre not to gawk at say its homeless population.

It'd be like saying a higlight in visiting China is touring the Foxconn factory to see how the workers live their lives.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Don't triple down on this...

I go to NYC to see live theatre not to gawk at say its homeless population.

It'd be like saying a higlight in visiting China is touring the Foxconn factory to see how the workers live their lives.
If this was like touring a NK prison camp you'd have a comparison.
 

Opto

Banned
To tour in NK you basically go on their propaganda ride and nothing else. You're not helping the victims of the regime by exposing them to your great western self.
 

EmiPrime

Member
They're not animals in a zoo for you to gawk at.

I agree with this sentiment. NK tourism is perverse and immoral and those who indulge in it should be ashamed of themselves.

If this was like touring a NK prison camp you'd have a comparison.

Nobody can leave North Korea of their own accord and those who try to will have their entire family sent to a concentration camp. It is the biggest prison in the world.
 

slit

Member
I love traveling but you have to be absolutely nuts to go there with the way things are run, especially if you're from the West.
 
They're not animals in a zoo for you to gawk at.

The people that you see when you are a tourist in North Korea are almost certainly there for you go gawk at. Every single person you see is placed there for you to see them because every North Korea tour is a carefully guided piece of propaganda. All of them come from high ranking families and have studied English for years in order to interact with you. It's not like you are gawking at the actual starving North Koreas. You will never see them.
 
The people that you see when you are a tourist in North Korea are almost certainly there for you go gawk at. Every single person you see is placed there for you to see them because every North Korea tour is a carefully guided piece of propaganda. All of them come from high ranking families and have studied English for years in order to interact with you. It's not like you are gawking at the actual starving North Koreas. You will never see them.

Oh that's so much better....
 

jblank83

Member
Or you'll be worked to death in a prison camp. Yep, sounds perfectly safe.

You'll be lucky if that's the worst thing that happens to you in an NK prison camp.

The leaked reports from escapees are horrific.

Fortunately for outsiders, their arrests are usually political bargaining chips and saber rattling gestures. This student will be back in America before too long, even if it takes a year or several.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
The people that you see when you are a tourist in North Korea are almost certainly there for you go gawk at. Every single person you see is placed there for you to see them because every North Korea tour is a carefully guided piece of propaganda. All of them come from high ranking families and have studied English for years in order to interact with you. It's not like you are gawking at the actual starving North Koreas. You will never see them.

Do you realise that you see thousands and thousands of people during the trip? People going to work by bikes, people queuing for whatever supplies, people doing their park cleaning duty, people doing farming duty, people riding ancient busses that are far too over crowded, people working in bars, groups of school kids seeing the monument of the great leader, students learning english in the most bizarre way in the central library... Just to mention a few.

And yes, you see very poor people in the countryside who no doubt suffer of hunger among other things. It's not like they can hide it, the country is insanely poor and you see hundreds of kilometers of it.
 
Do you realise that you see thousands and thousands of people during the trip? People going to work by bikes, people queuing for whatever supplies, people doing their park cleaning duty, people doing farming duty, people riding ancient busses that are far too over crowded, people working in bars, groups of school kids seeing the monument of the great leader, students learning english in the most bizarre way in the central library... Just to mention a few.

And yes, you see very poor people in the countryside who no doubt suffer of hunger among other things. It's not like they can hide it, the country is insanely poor and you see hundreds of kilometers of it.

When you stay in North Korea you (you being the average american tourist. I'm sure if you are a diplomat or whatever things may be different) literally stay on an island in the middle of Pyongyang. Every single trip outside of that island is tightly controlled. They know what routes you are going on in advance and everything you see on those routes is controlled. You aren't even allowed to visit most floors of the hotel you are staying one.

Furthermore, yes I'm sure that when you are in Pyongyang you might see people going about their lives, but everyone who lives in Pyongyang is upper class. You have to be invited into Pyongyang. You are still not seeing the real North Korea. Anyway, you would still be surprised how many people going about their lives are actually part of the tour. When they take you by a group of people "learning english", that is completely fabricated for the tour.

You rarely see actual poor people in the countryside. If you do, then someone fucked up because you aren't supposed to.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
When you stay in North Korea you (you being the average american tourist. I'm sure if you are a diplomat or whatever things may be different) literally stay on an island in the middle of Pyongyang. Every single trip outside of that island is tightly controlled. They know what routes you are going on in advance and everything you see on those routes is controlled. You aren't even allowed to visit most floors of the hotel you are staying one.

Furthermore, yes I'm sure that when you are in Pyongyang you might see people going about their lives, but everyone who lives in Pyongyang is upper class. You have to be invited into Pyongyang. You are still not seeing the real North Korea. Anyway, you would still be surprised how many people going about their lives are actually part of the tour. When they take you by a group of people "learning english", that is completely fabricated for the tour.

You rarely see actual poor people in the countryside. If you do, then someone fucked up because you aren't supposed to.

Eh, don't know. Pyongyang is surely very upper class and elitist, but even there the 'elite' queues for hours for these real shitty busses, or to buy the new government issued spatula or whatever. People drag enormous cardboard box loads on a cart by hand, as they have no gas. If that's all there for show, it's a weird way to try to impress foreigners.

Same for the English class. An odd hundred young adults in an audio class doing this yelling contest to whatever word flashes on the screen, looking more like a trading floor than an efficient way of learning things. Again, weird.

The countryside trip through to Kaesong and DMZ is part of the standard itinerary of the tourist trip, and on the way there you go through some very poor areas. Even Kaesong is distinctly poorer than Pyongyang, the very few cars they have are these "tractor parts gobbled together to lawnmover engines" type of contraptions you'd expect to see on the set of Mad Max, and yet they are probably only for the hot shots of the town.
 

brian577

Banned
An update. Maybe true, probably coerced.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35684536

A US student who was arrested in North Korea has appeared on state media admitting to trying to steal a piece of propaganda from a hotel.

In his first appearance since his arrest last month, an emotional Otto Warmbier said he was asked by a US church to bring back the "trophy".

Mr Warmbier, a 21-year-old University of Virginia student, had been on a tourist trip to North Korea in January.

He was arrested on 2 January as he was about to leave.

At the time, North Korea said the US government had "tolerated and manipulated" him. He was charged with committing a "hostile act".

At a news conference in Pyongyang, Mr Warmbier said a member of the Friendship United Methodist Church had promised to give him a used car worth $10,000 (£7,200) if he brought back a propaganda sign from his North Korea trip.
 

Boss Mog

Member
Giving money to that regime is abhorrent.



Also proclaimed the women to be "the most beautiful in Asia" and provided this picture as "evidence":

VFeYs7R.png

To each his own of course but I don't think any of these "examples" would be considered pretty enough to even be a backup dancer in a Kpop video.
 
Boss★Moogle;197089355 said:
To each his own of course but I don't think any of these "examples" would be considered pretty enough to even be a backup dancer in a Kpop video.

Well, to be fair, it's probably hard in North Korea to find a plastic surgeon for those careful body tweaks and eyelid surgery. They probably think that shit is too "Western".
 

LaMagenta

Member
i can't say i feel sorry for him. he is part of a culture of young americans who are ignorant, spoiled, and stupid. He pulled a flag from hotel lobby to take home. He knows NK does not play! They will arrest you, imprison you for that. They tell you what not to do on those tours. Anthony Bourdain visits NK in his Parts Unknown documentary. This kid thought USA would protect him if something happened, he's dumb. Don't get me wrong, i hope he is ok. i hope he is being fed, and has a warm bed to sleep in, and safe of harm. But you don't go into a country like that not knowing the consequences. If he had done nothing to offend them i would feel sympathy, but he knew what he was doing.
 

otapnam

Member
Boss★Moogle;197089355 said:
To each his own of course but I don't think any of these "examples" would be considered pretty enough to even be a backup dancer in a Kpop video.

Its probably what they look Like before the multiple plastic surgeries haha
 

Hycran

Banned
I want to go to North Korea one day. Just keep my hands to myself, don't drop any bibles in public washrooms and praise the leader and I'm safe and sound. Seems easy enough.
 

olympia

Member
They're not animals in a zoo for you to gawk at.

It's not like that at all. My sister went to North Korea in the summer and she interacted with the citizens there pretty casually, especially when she went to visit the university. They asked her questions and practiced English with her. She hung out and drank with her North Korean tour guides and did stuff like go to shooting ranges, karaoke, and bowling with them. She really bonded with them.

My sister has platinum blonde hair and is super skinny. The locals gawked at her and asked to take pictures with her. She brought a polaroid camera but ended up giving the people there the photos they took with her because she looks weird in comparison.

There are obvious moral questions when it comes to visiting North Korea but I think it's a valuable experience that indignantly watching CNN won't get you. I really feel like there are a ton of misconceptions about North Korea fueled by Western media (not that I don't think it's an oppressive regime.) It might be novel for a westerner to travel there, but thousands of Chinese tourists visit every year.
 
I really feel like there are a ton of misconceptions about North Korea fueled by Western media (not that I don't think it's an oppressive regime.

Like what?

It might be novel for a westerner to travel there, but thousands of Chinese tourists visit every year.

And most do it for the same reasons americans visit NK from the chinese I know that visitied NK.
 

Goliath

Member
Stuff like this which turned out not to be true. There's a great fascinating documentary called the Propaganda Game that came out this year that tackles the how the US and NK sling propaganda at each other. I think it discusses the issue with more nuance than most.

In a country where they breed prisoners in concentration camp type conditions....do you think it matters that ONE important figure didn't die the way a rumor made it. There are thousands of political prisoners in worse conditions and have had worse happen to them.

If you do a little research, there is enough verified information to condemn NK as a crappy country who has a bad reputation in their treatment of their citizens.

I don't believe involving myself in their Sandles themed propaganda trip is gonna contribute to "breaking down walls" and improve communication with NK to change their behavior. It will just satisfy a curiosity, not educate me in the way it really is and possibly cause me to spread misinformation based upon my experience on their "guided trip". I see it as more harm then good and slightly selfish.
 
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