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Not This Again : Ebert : Video games can never be art

Rez said:
Some people reach a point where they decide they have done all the learning about some aspects of life they will ever need to. There is no point in arguing a point with these people. I'd sooner throw myself against a brick wall repeatedly, it would be about as useful.

Discussing this with people who are willing to acknowledge this as a discussion to begin with, else they don't already consider themselves 'an authority' on aspects of the discussion, would be a much more engaging, worthwhile time for the community, and promotes a much healthier, compelling back and forth.

This is just subjective rock-throwing for the sake of an entire community trying to validate itself in the eyes of a highly-respected, admirable movie critic and human being. As long as there are people out there discussing this topic like an art, being affected by games like an art, seeing a vision through like an art and doing creative things in the name of their art, for all intents and purposes, this is an art to us, if not to Roger Ebert, of all people.
I have heard that as you age, your brain no longer forms new neural pathways, and simply follows old ones. This is why older people tend not to grasp new things quite as easily.

Hopefully we do not think we can convince Ebert here... but it is a wonderful catalyst for a GAF discussion on something like this.

If I started a thread like "are videogames art guys?" it would be mocked and locked :lol
 
i dont get how someone who hasnt played a video game can say either way.

it would be like me saying film cant be art but, to date, i have not sat all the way through a film.
 
Snuggler said:
Don't be a dick. It's a tough question but I think that games a certainly capable of being art. It's just that games are much more flexible than any other medium, sometimes you're blasting dudes in the face with shotguns and sometimes you're a flower pollinating fields etc etc. In my opinion, if movies are considered art, so are videogames.

you're right. i agree 100% with what you said btw. if movies are art then video games must be considered such as well. i just find it funny that a guy that can't even talk is saying this. he's pretty much terrible and should go away for good. his opinions pretty much blow.
 
ugh, what's so frustrating about this entire issue is that people ignore what make games fun!

games allow for deviation, they allow for manipulation! they don't restrict the player to experience a sole artistic expression. they're games!

the fun in playing a game is figuring out how you're going to achieve a certain task your predetermined abilities. the very fact that games aren't cold, non-interactive message-bearers is what makes us (or, at least me) enjoy playing them. we are playing to manipulate, to change what is being presented to us. whether it be for a high score or for a story-driven conclusion, you continue playing because you have control over gameplay. you don't have control over story! movies, books, even albums have control over story. gamers have control over the immediate moment, and that's what's fun!

don't wish your games to be art, wish your games to be fun. any game propelled by the appearance of art is simply a masquerade: you might have fun playing, but it's an unholy hybrid. there's a (misguided) reason why people enjoy collecting trophies and achievements so much: it's fun to accomplish things even though they're predetermined. it's a challenge, it's a thrill, but it's not art.
 
blame space said:
ugh, what's so frustrating about this entire issue is that people ignore what make games fun!

games allow for deviation, they allow for manipulation! they don't restrict the player to experience a sole artistic expression. they're games!

the fun in playing a game is figuring out how you're going to achieve a certain task your predetermined abilities. the very fact that games aren't cold, non-interactive message-bearers is what makes us (or, at least me) enjoy playing them. we are playing to manipulate, to change what is being presented to us. whether it be for a high score or for a story-driven conclusion, you continue playing because you have control over gameplay. you don't have control over story! movies, books, even albums have control over story. gamers have control over the immediate moment, and that's what's fun!

don't wish your games to be art, wish your games to be fun. any game propelled by the appearance of art is simply a masquerade: you might have fun playing, but it's an unholy hybrid. there's a (misguided) reason why people enjoy collecting trophies and achievements so much: it's fun to accomplish things even though they're predetermined. it's a challenge, it's a thrill, but it's not art.
Dancing is an art and I have complete control over that.
 
TheEastonator said:
Changing your perspective is your way of manipulating it. You change what you're seeing. Same with a game, but you modify your experience with a controller, not physical repositioning (unless it's a Wii game, I guess)

changing your perspective of a sculpture that is unable to be manipulated is largely different from changing your perspective due to direct manipulation.

viewing a sculpture from a different angle != interacting with a virtual environment
 
You're creating something which would not have existed without the creativity required to engineer thoughts and ideas and transfer them to the video game medium. It's not just games like Flower or the Pixeljunk series, but any game with a hint of originality or fun is artistic in that it required a thought process in order for it to be executed as something which would elicit emotion. If games can't be art, then I don't see how entertainment in general can be deemed artistic.
 
blame space, there is no reason whatsoever that a game can't be artistic and fun. I would go as far to say that a game's fun is part of its art.
 
Mariner said:
you're right. i agree 100% with what you said btw. if movies are art then video games must be considered such as well.

Yeah, I guess this might be a never ending debate but I don't see why it is in the first place.
By the way, you might want to edit first post because saying something like that could be considered offensive, just lookin out for ya.
 
Snuggler said:
By the way, you might want to edit first post because saying something like that could be considered offensive, just lookin out for ya.
...by quoting him so it's on record no matter what? :lol
 
BocoDragon said:
Dancing is an art and I have complete control over that.

exactly.

so achieving a world-wide high-score in Geometry Wars 2 is an example of performance art while playing through MGS3 is not.

dance is an art-form that does not award the mediocre, after all.
 
This seems like something you can't really analyze from the outside, which is what Ebert is trying to do. How can you pretend to understand the experience of playing a particular video game if you haven't played it at all? Ebert watches the movies he reviews, so I'd expect him to play the games whose artistic value he critiques.

This, in particular, rubs me the wrong way.

Roger Ebert said:
Her next example is a game named "Braid" (above). This is a game "that explores our own relationship with our past...you encounter enemies and collect puzzle pieces, but there's one key difference...you can't die." You can go back in time and correct your mistakes. In chess, this is known as taking back a move, and negates the whole discipline of the game. Nor am I persuaded that I can learn about my own past by taking back my mistakes in a video game.

How can you be sure the chess metaphor is valid if you haven't played Braid, where rewinding the game is part and parcel of the mechanics, and not a transgression? How can you be sure that rewinding time can't teach you anything about time if you haven't participated? I could say equally uninformed things about movies I haven't seen that do artistically valuable things, and those comments would be equally irrelevant.

I have an awful lot of respect for Ebert as a movie critic and as a reviewer, but I have a difficult time respecting this opinion if it comes from that sort of perspective.

I was also amused by this bit from the comments section:
GhaleonQ said:
Mister Ebert, you picked the wrong public defender. She heads a games company that, itself, poorly represents art games. The "Comics aren't for kids!" people tend to be similarly self-interested, though there are certainly stellar examples they seem to miss. I laughed at your accurate portrayal of her examples, so don't listen to those who say, "Pearls before swine." If you'll indulge me, I have a better example. It's inside baseball and far too dense (I wrote it quickly while keeping up my studies at a brutally difficult school), but you won't find a game with more thematic depth. I bet the message is 1 you can support, too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376513

Never give up.
 
BocoDragon said:
...by quoting him so it's on record no matter what? :lol
I was referring to a previous post, but I guess that one could count too.
Even if we are frustrated with Ebert's opinions at least it brings up the topic and gives us an opportunity to argue that he's wrong.
What makes this so difficult is that you have to define what art is before you can actually give it consideration.
 
jdogmoney said:
blame space, there is no reason whatsoever that a game can't be artistic and fun. I would go as far to say that a game's fun is part of its art.

fun isn't art, though. fun is fun. i like fun! that's why i play games.

games are comparable to sports in this sense: if you're going to consider participating in games (or sports) an art-form, then you'd better be damn good at it. anyone who knows the rules of basketball can play a pick-up game at a gym, but not everyone can finger-roll like Dr. J.

do you guys consider sports to be art?
 
blame space said:
fun isn't art, though. fun is fun. i like fun! that's why i play games.

games are comparable to sports in this sense: if you're going to consider participating in games (or sports) an art-form, then you'd better be damn good at it. anyone who knows the rules of basketball can play a pick-up game at a gym, but not everyone can finger-roll like Dr. J.

do you guys consider sports to be art?
Synchronized swimming is an olympic sport and is most definitely artistic.
 
daycru said:
Surprised he had time to write this, what with his busy schedule of tweeting about Sarah Palin fifty times a day.
iceburn.gif
 
blame space said:
fun isn't art, though. fun is fun. i like fun! that's why i play games.

games are comparable to sports in this sense: if you're going to consider participating in games (or sports) an art-form, then you'd damn-well be the fucking best at it. anyone who knows the rules of basketball can play a pick-up game at a gym, but not everyone can finger-roll like Dr. J.

do you guys consider sports to be art?

Games =/= sports.

Except for sports games.


Even multiplayer-only games have a degree of artistry to them. Look at the characters and designs of Team Fortress 2. No cutscenes, no story mode, no expository dialogue, but you have some of the most well-defined characters in fiction, and a backstory that's genuinely entertaining.

EDIT: Also, even if fun isn't art (debatable), art can still be fun.
 
Curious how many people even read what he wrote.

Overall, I agree with Ebert, and he really took Santiago to task. I may disagree with his premise that a game can never be art, but most of what he wrote in his article is correct. Her talk was utterly unconvincing.

In order to discuss this, you first have to separate the work from the medium. A movie, as such, is not art. A game, as such, is not art. I think this has to be the basic foundation of agreement, or else almost any argument is made pointless.

(By the way, Ebert doesn't argue that all movies are art, either -- I'm not sure why people are making comments implying such an argument.)

If we accept that premise, then we can talk about whether something is Art or not, and of course it will be different from one person to another. For my part, I am most interested in games that communicate something in a way that can only be done in the interactive space. A cutscene can be Art without the game being so, and in fact I would say it would be even easier to do because it's already been done in movies (a cutscene is effectively a movie... a linear, scripted, wholly composed series of moving images). Same with writing, same with painting, etc.

The reason I make this distinction is because I think the argument about games as art needs to be specific to what makes a game a game.

Indeed, if Braid or Flower are going to be the games we put forward and say, "Look at these, they are Art," then I would agree with Ebert in that they are pathetic. Furthermore, I would say they even damage the cause of expressing things in a way that only interactive mediums can. I feel on this case Ebert's reaction is apt... Braid's story IS "on the level of a wordy fortune cookie."

Maybe with Flower I can make my point clearer: one might argue that the visuals are Art (though I would disagree). One might argue the music is Art (I would actually agree here, I find Diamante's compositions are extremely expressive and evocative). But is the game itself, the way that you manipulate or trigger those individual pieces art in of itself? Absolutely not. On a game level Flower is mundane and says little of interest.

If we want to argue that games are Art, I would more readily accept that a game such as Shadow of the Colossus has merit, or Legend of Zelda. Super Mario Bros. would fit the bill. Perhaps Shattered Memories. Why? Because the gameplay says something, because the act of playing the game is crucial to the experience. It evokes a response that you cannot get unless you play the game yourself.

In the end, I would agree that even if games are Art, we don't have our Great Art. We have our Great Games, though. Santiago mentions that the works of art of the gaming world "are being rewarded by audiences by high sales figures." Then perhaps it would be best to look at the most successful artists, people such as Miyamoto, who quickly say that games are not art (much to the chagrin of many, I'm sure). There is of course a huge discussion to be had regarding "art" and whether a product can be art, as games undoubtedly are in most cases.

By the way, Ebert nails the whole point of this discussion when he asks: "Do they require validation?" The answer is without a doubt "yes."
 
Meh, everyone has their opinions.

I tend to take the side that says that almost anything meant to inform, entertain, or otherwise interact with a viewer/reader/listener/participant should be considered art. Putting quality or comparison in the picture just makes it subject to personal bias, as Mr. Ebert is exhibiting.

I kept thinking about Silent Hill:Shattered Memories and how that game stuck with me for days. That was definetly an experience on par with anything that struck me in my art history class, as far as a peice of media forcing it's way into my head and not getting out. It's not like Silent Hill changed my life, but it made an impression, and it made it's statement.

I think that game is certainly something i would call being crafted in an artful manner.

I don't see what the big harm is in calling games art. So what, they're art. Have fun. Doesn't change what they are or how you play them.
 
jdogmoney said:
Games =/= sports.

Except for sports games.


Even multiplayer-only games have a degree of artistry to them. Look at the characters and designs of Team Fortress 2. No cutscenes, no story mode, no expository dialogue, but you have some of the most well-defined characters in fiction, and a backstory that's genuinely entertaining.

you argue that the existence of well-designed characters and thought-out backstory equals art? not to deny Valve's developers any dues, but they're creating an attractive and likable environment for players to participate in, just like any other developer.

the synchronized swimming argument is an interesting one, but i believe it can only be applied to MMORPG games, of which i have no playing experience.
 
timetokill said:
Curious how many people even read what he wrote.

Overall, I agree with Ebert, and he really took Santiago to task. I may disagree with his premise that a game can never be art, but most of what he wrote in his article is correct. Her talk was utterly unconvincing.

In order to discuss this, you first have to separate the work from the medium. A movie, as such, is not art. A game, as such, is not art. I think this has to be the basic foundation of agreement, or else almost any argument is made pointless.

(By the way, Ebert doesn't argue that all movies are art, either -- I'm not sure why people are making comments implying such an argument.)

If we accept that premise, then we can talk about whether something is Art or not, and of course it will be different from one person to another. For my part, I am most interested in games that communicate something in a way that can only be done in the interactive space. A cutscene can be Art without the game being so, and in fact I would say it would be even easier to do because it's already been done in movies (a cutscene is effectively a movie... a linear, scripted, wholly composed series of moving images). Same with writing, same with painting, etc.

The reason I make this distinction is because I think the argument about games as art needs to be specific to what makes a game a game.

Indeed, if Braid or Flower are going to be the games we put forward and say, "Look at these, they are Art," then I would agree with Ebert in that they are pathetic. Furthermore, I would say they even damage the cause of expressing things in a way that only interactive mediums can. I feel on this case Ebert's reaction is apt... Braid's story IS "on the level of a wordy fortune cookie."

Maybe with Flower I can make my point clearer: one might argue that the visuals are Art (though I would disagree). One might argue the music is Art (I would actually agree here, I find Diamante's compositions are extremely expressive and evocative). But is the game itself, the way that you manipulate or trigger those individual pieces art in of itself? Absolutely not. On a game level Flower is mundane and says little of interest.

If we want to argue that games are Art, I would more readily accept that a game such as Shadow of the Colossus has merit, or Legend of Zelda. Super Mario Bros. would fit the bill. Why? Because the gameplay says something. It evokes a response that you cannot get unless you play the game yourself.

In the end, I would agree that even if games are Art, we don't have our Great Art. We have our Great Games, though. Santiago mentions that the works of art of the gaming world "are being rewarded by audiences by high sales figures." Then perhaps it would be best to look at the most successful artists, people such as Miyamoto, who quickly say that games are not art (much to the chagrin of many, I'm sure). There is of course a huge discussion to be had regarding "art" and whether a product can be art, as games undoubtedly are in most cases.

By the way, Ebert nails the whole point of this discussion when he asks: "Do they require validation?" The answer is without a doubt "yes."
I find most of your points very interesting...

But must an art really "say something", as you imply?

What about something that's simply aesthetically well designed. People will often say "look at that.. that's a work of art" about building design, garden arrangement, the design of a piece of electronics, someone's physical body.

Must art really have a message? I think not. Dancing doesn't. It just has aesthetic appeal.

Art, to me, is one or more human creating something in order to elicit an emotional response in another human being (or even one's self).
 
BocoDragon said:
I find most of your points very interesting...

But must an art really "say something", as you imply?

What about something that's simply aesthetically well designed. People will often say "look at that.. that's a work of art" about building design, garden arrangement, the design of a piece of electronics, someone's physical body.

Must art really have a message? I think not. Dancing doesn't. It just has aesthetic appeal.

Art, to me, is one or more human creating something in order to elicit an emotional response in another human being (or even one's self).

But that is too simplistic a definition.
 
blame space said:
you argue that the existence of well-designed characters and thought-out backstory equals art? not to deny Valve's developers any dues, but they're creating an attractive and likable environment for players to participate in, just like any other developer.

They didn't have to give the characters personality for the sake of the game, they did it for the sake of art. Half-Life 2 has multiplayer, but they didn't go out of their way to make an extensive backstory other than KILL THEY ASS.

Yes, well-developed characters and a coherent backstory is part of what makes something art. Would the roof of the Sistine Chapel have as much impact if it were just some dudes Michaelangelo felt like drawing?
 
johnFkennedy said:
Art is subjective and so are the opinions of a narrow minded movie critic.
Congratulations. You just avoided wasting your time and energy on a long winded post that would only prove this point.
 
Ebert said:
Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, "I'm studying a great form of art?" Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.

I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case.
c'mon Ebert, that's cold. :lol
 
The average high budget videogame is a higher artform than the average high budget Hollywood film. Also: that games have aesthetic value isn't even debatable. Ebert is an elitist moron.
 
Cep said:
But that is too simplistic a definition.
It's the only one that fits all established arts. Dancing, archaecture, theatre, sculpture, literature, film, performance.

That's my position: This haughty taughty "Art" with a capital 'A' is a big pretentious illusion.

What people really mean when they talk about French New Wave film, or Picasso, or Dostoevsky is "I really, really liked this art and what it elicited in me".

Saying "this is art, this is not art" is pretentious and devoid of objective meaning. It has no definition except the whims of subjective opinion. As such it really is no 'definition' at all. There is only what people like and do not like.
 
Those first 30 seconds of Super Mario are art, and I always think about those too when I read stuff like this. It's well known that miyamoto created and laid out the levels for that game in a physical manner so they could be viewed altogether like a painting coming together.

In that time he has taught the player about:

about the player's need to jump, (every non-gamer that plays SMB the first time or the first time in a long time runs straight into that goomba),

The player's ability to interact with the world (the lone brick that responds to jumping, but don't change)

The hidden items in the world, and the player's ability to change states (the mushroom)

That the player has control over the height, direction, and speed of jumps(A short pipe followed by a taller pipe that can be cleared with a longer held jump)

A bit later he even throws in a hidden 1up brick and the pipe shortcut filled with coins to encourage the curious player, and show that they can collect objects in the world that aren't used immediately.

That section of gameplay is as deliberately designed and crafted as any section of music or portion of a painting, or title card sequence that's introducing the mood or preparing the listener/viewer for what's to come. I smile every time someone new plays that game at just how that beginning section interacts with their brain.
 
Jexhius said:
True, but thats like going back to 1915 and saying "All these movies are dumb, none of them are as good as a Shakespearean play".
Same thing was said about poetry for centuries, where it was considered disposable, throwaway writing with no value. You told anyone in Shakespeare's time that poetry would have entire college courses dedicated to it, someone would've called you insane.

Point is, yeah okay, Ebert.
 
jdogmoney said:
They didn't have to give the characters personality for the sake of the game, they did it for the sake of art. Half-Life 2 has multiplayer, but they didn't go out of their way to make an extensive backstory other than KILL THEY ASS.

so HL2 multiplayer is NOT art, while TF2 multiplayer IS art?

Yes, well-developed characters and a coherent backstory is part of what makes something art. Would the roof of the Sistine Chapel have as much impact if it were just some dudes Michaelangelo felt like drawing?

Michaelangelo did not decide the impact of his work, he decided his work. Perhaps the Sistine Chapel was just "dudes [he] felt like drawning". Would that matter?
 
Jexhius said:
Source : Video Games Can Never Be Art

"No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets."
What about Go?

It's the harmony of simplistic warfare with even odds that creates the most miraculous games, some of the greatest being cited for hundreds of years. A game that forges men, destroys illusions, incites imagination, makes us what we are; some guys one day sat down and played the first round, creating one of the wildest journeys through space and time human thought ever made.

Plus, it comes before Goethe in the dictionary. That should count for something, right?
 
Meh ... it's a subjective term like somebody said. Art has become a catchphrase to throw at games like 'innovative' and 'immersive' ... it all depends on who is defining it and how it's being defined.

ICO can just be a game, but to me it can also be a wonderful balance of story and character which I would consider an art form.

I will laugh when movie technology gets to the point of where the audience has persuasive powers over the ending (like Choose Your Own Adventure) or something of the sort then what will movies be? Not movies anymore? It probably won't happen in our lifetime but are TV shows not considered art? Shows like American Idol (horrible show aside) where the audience chooses? He walks a fine line with his definitions that really could easily be counter argued by anybody with half a brain but I'm sure he's not having any of that.
 
Ebert is just relying too much on a quality judgment to make his case. Can something only be art if it's good or well liked by the critic? What the fuck is that?

He's really not speaking with any more credence than the person who walks into the art gallery and says everything's just pictures and he can't see the meaning, because he's just glazing over all the colors.

I think games have a lot more in common with paintings or music than movies when it comes to interpreting the "art" of them. It's not really necessary for enjoyment of the game, but the way infinity ward or bungie balances a multiplayer map or a weapon set is just as obscure to most as the way a painter directs your eye around the painting or uses color to suggest a mood.

Anyway, the term is pure poison for any kind of constructive discussion about games. Most just use it as a catch-all descriptor for games that they had an emotional connection with, regardless of the nature of it. Let's just judge them as they are, and not confine them to traditional terms which may not have any purpose or meaning in this context. Videogames are Videogames. Maybe they're art, maybe they're not, but it doesn't change what they are, associated with that word or not.
 
blame space said:
so HL2 multiplayer is NOT art, while TF2 multiplayer IS art?

Michaelangelo did not decide the impact of his work, he decided his work. Perhaps the Sistine Chapel was just "dudes [he] felt like drawning". Would that matter?

TF2 as a whole is art. Half-Life 2 is art, too, but for a totally different reason.


You're dissecting the example, which is just distracting from my point, but I get the feeling that yeah, it would matter. Would the Creation of Adam have as much impact on the public consciousness if it weren't God, but some old guy?
 
timetokill said:
Overall, I agree with Ebert, and he really took Santiago to task. I may disagree with his premise that a game can never be art, but most of what he wrote in his article is correct. Her talk was utterly unconvincing.
This part of your post reminds me of the high fructose corn syrup commercial where a person warns another of the dangers of consuming HFCS but then fails to provide any meaningful information to explain those dangers, the false implication being that HFCS is not that bad. The truth of course is that HFCS is bad for you and is hard to consume in moderation because it's in virtually every processed food product these days.

Basically, you can't assume you've won the argument just because your opponent has failed to make a compelling case. There is someone else out there with more information that is better prepared to make a better and more persuasive case. Ebert should realize this and not be so self-satisfied.
 
ICO is the closest to art from a videogame in my opinion. It evokes emotion through gameplay by centering it around guiding and holding Yorda's hand. I find it hard to consider games art based on their narrative, or sound or cutscenes. These are not elements that make games into games. What a game needs is all visual, aural and gameplay elements to work in cohesion to evoke an emotion, to make you think and so on.

But the problem is, it's the cinematic and sometimes aural qualities that are far outweighing the gameplay in what makes them artistic. Perhaps games with choices would be the best argument for games as art, but I've yet to experience one that approaches it like that. When your actions have emotional resonance is when you start to see the potential. Something that stays with me here is shooting the Boss at the conclusion of MGS3. But in the end all that is being evoked are simple emotions

I don't think games have really become art yet
 
jdogmoney said:
They didn't have to give the characters personality for the sake of the game, they did it for the sake of art. Half-Life 2 has multiplayer, but they didn't go out of their way to make an extensive backstory other than KILL THEY ASS.

Yes, well-developed characters and a coherent backstory is part of what makes something art. Would the roof of the Sistine Chapel have as much impact if it were just some dudes Michaelangelo felt like drawing?

They didn't have to do anything for the sake of the game, but by creating an engaging cast of characters to use, the game becomes more enjoyable to play, for a number of reasons. Besides gameplay (character classes are easily identifiable at a distance), amusing quotes and taunts provide small rewards for playing, and character personalities allow the multiplayer match to develop a small sort of narrative that can be related easily to others when play is over.

In most cases, narrative and design choices exist for the sake of entertaining the player, and increasing their attachment to the game. Rarely do they create much "Art" (at least as it exists in this conversation). There's nothing inherently wrong with that, as video games are still games. But to continue your Sistene Chapel example, it isn't the existence of the biblical backstory that makes that painted ceiling into respected art.
 
I AM JOHN! said:
Same thing was said about poetry for centuries, where it was considered disposable, throwaway writing with no value.

And then prose was considered worthless as poetry became the dominant artform. Not to mention many of the "greats" were not considered such during their time. The value of an artform or artist is entirely subjective, and usually filtered through whatever the cultural elites happen to value at that time.

To suggest that videogames are not art is to suggest that the gaming community has no set of standards - no opinion - with regard to visuals. Clearly this is not the case. Countless threads discuss various stylistic changes, and radical departures from the norm (ex. cell-shading) can bring violent reactions, which is nothing less than aesthetic criticism at work.

EDIT: This is not to say that the value of games as art is limited to visuals.
 
Black Rainbow said:
This part of your post reminds me of the high fructose corn syrup commercial where a person warns another of the dangers of consuming HFCS but then fails to provide any meaningful information to explain those dangers, the false implication being that HFCS is not that bad. It is and is hard to consume in moderation because it's in virtually every processed food product these days.

Basically, you can't assume you've won the argument just because your opponent has failed to make a compelling case. There is someone else out there with more information that is better prepared to make a better and more persuasive case. Ebert should realize this and not be so self-satisfied.


It's funny, because I've completely cut out HFCS from my diet (as far as I can tell anyway) :lol

But my argument wasn't that Ebert was right re: games as art because Santiago's argument was poor. I was just saying he was right that her argument was poor.

I don't know that he's particularly self-satisfied. Maybe he is. I don't really know or care. But I don't think he feels he's "won" the argument or set the rules down in stone or anything either. I'm sure he feels pretty set in his perception of the issue, which I think is fine by me. Note that in his response he wonders why so many are so concerned with his approval.
 
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