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Notch's response to Microsoft: FIGHT THE POWA

My understanding of the Win-8 gaming issue (and I might be waaaay off-base with this) is that Microsoft are looking to make their downloadable store popular in exactly the same way that they make Internet Explorer popular. Sure, there will be alternatives, but not everyone operates from the same knowledge base -- copious amounts of people used IE when it was at its worst and there were much better browsers to pick from. It seemed to me that MS eventually wants to implement a game store that's front and centre in any new-built PC, laptop, etc. and which is virulently integrated into a bunch of back-end computer functions (as IE is).

Again I might be entirely wrong on that, but it feels very Microsoft-ey. Welcoming people into the department store of the computer, but putting up a curtain around the foyer in which all their services are displayed, knowing that a percentage of customers will never think to walk through those curtains to find the rest of the shopping space.
 
OK, is there proof that microsoft is trying to close the OS?

Or is it just 'uhhhh we don't want an apps store'

as long as people can still make apps and aren't forced to use microsofts distribution point exclusively, is this really a thing?

I don't know if I'm ready to consider microsoft evil. Infact, I find them to be one of the more agreeable companies.
 
entrement said:
I don't get all the controversy about this. Just don't your stuff in their app store. Users can still install software outside their app store. Seems like feigned outrage to me.
Click to expand...

Exactly. But so many in the anti-Windows 8 camp, while not having said it explicitly, try to imply this. It doesn't hurt that once you look at the facts in such a black and white manner, so many of their arguments come crashing down.
 
ultron87 said:
Microsoft will never totally lock down Windows. A huge segment of their business is Enterprise Software and businesses need to be able to install their own stuff.
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I think it would be really stupid for either MS or Apple to fully lock their systems. They'll offer options to lock you in, but you'll be able to turn it off as you can now. But to lock it completely would be suicide for both parties. And they know this. They'll lock their mobile only systems though. But not their desktop. People would refuse to upgrade or jump ship to the other OS' so I don't think it would happen. Plus the bad publicity leading up to the release of such update would make sure everyone knew what was coming and the outcry would turn their decisions around really quickly.
 
The Real Abed said:
I think it would be really stupid for either MS or Apple to fully lock their systems. They'll offer options to lock you in, but you'll be able to turn it off as you can now. But to lock it completely would be suicide for both parties. And they know this. They'll lock their mobile only systems though. But not their desktop. People would refuse to upgrade or jump ship to the other OS' so I don't think it would happen. Plus the bad publicity leading up to the release of such update would make sure everyone knew what was coming and the outcry would turn their decisions around really quickly.
Click to expand...
I read this in Abed's voice.
 
Tallshortman said:
It's not, people are just freaking out because MS will have their own (non mandatory) software store which requires their certification. You don't need certification to release products on Windows 8 and most people probably won't be purchasing their games or programs off the MS store anyway. The most valid criticism is honestly metro, I don't find anything else about 8 "offensive" whatsoever.
Click to expand...

How is Metro bad though? I've been using Windows 8 for the past week and I probably spent 1% of my time with the Metro UI.

It's also pretty cool for people like me who don't like icons on their desktop and keep their start bar for stuff that is actually open. I launch Steam, Mumble, Adobe stuff, Office stuff from there. I mean, I even have Launchy installed (which was what I used on Win7), but I just don't use it that much anymore.

Not to mention how many fullscreen apps actually work better than their previous web versions.

I know for a fact that Metro UI is an improvement, I don't see how it was made for touch and ported over, it's a click-based UI with some stuff that saves you a lot of time.

My question is how is PC becoming a closed platform when I just installed all the stuff I had on Windows 7 and it's working? I must be missing something.
 
entrement said:
I don't get all the controversy about this. Just don't get your stuff in their app store. Users can still install software outside their app store. Seems like feigned outrage to me.
Click to expand...
It's what I do with the Mac App Store when the AS version is gimped. A lot of developers have started putting up two versions with disclaimers saying that the AS version doesn't have this or that feature due to restrictions.
 
Guys, its fine, I know most of your apps are for DOS and you get better performance and extended memory by using boot disks, but windows 3.1 runs just fine alongside DOS so I don't know where you'd get the idea that MS will try and lock down future versions of the OS into Windows only.

Its serious tinfoil hat thinking here, jeez.
 
What are we going to complain about next? Microsoft asking hardware developers for Windows 8 driver updates?

Some games have problems running under Windows 8, and Microsoft is trying to fix that promptly. It's to Notch's benefit to go along with it.
 
I don't think Microsoft would ever lock down all versions of Windows, but I could totally see them releasing a 'lite' version that only runs apps from the Windows App Store for cheap laptops and the like. Similar to RT, but based on the x86/64 versions.
 
Imagine the willpower it took Mr. Microsoft to personally write Notch an e-mail trying to certify his java game for the official app store.

Nothing against Notch, but enough of these things have been based on misunderstandings on his end that I'm not going straight into celebration mode every time he does something special nowadays. Except possibly when he releases games or patches for them.
 
Toodles said:
My understanding of the Win-8 gaming issue (and I might be waaaay off-base with this) is that Microsoft are looking to make their downloadable store popular in exactly the same way that they make Internet Explorer popular. Sure, there will be alternatives, but not everyone operates from the same knowledge base -- copious amounts of people used IE when it was at its worst and there were much better browsers to pick from. It seemed to me that MS eventually wants to implement a game store that's front and centre in any new-built PC, laptop, etc. and which is virulently integrated into a bunch of back-end computer functions (as IE is).
Click to expand...

My problem with this almost revisionist history is that most forget how IE came to be the most used browser. Yes, being a part of Windows was a major reason, but most forget the browser it was originally competing with Netscape Navigator. IE v1-3 lost out to Netscape until v4 came out for both, right around the same time. IE 4 was clearly better, and that's why most started switching over. I think that was as important a reason. Also, its fair to note that most every PC I was interested in buying (was looking to buy a new PC in that specific time) all came with both browsers installed by default.

Netscape 4 was a piece of shit. You didn't have to compare it to IE to see that; it sucked balls on its own merit.

This has somewhat little to do with the current conversation at hand, but its important to note when comparing this situation to the browsers.
 
vidcons said:
sure has a lot of time to tweet while minecraft still sits unfinished
Click to expand...

Notch no longer works on Minecraft. He passed things over to Jeb and Dinnerbone and they have been doing fantastic work with the game.

As for Notch's comments I don't like the guy. I understand where he is coming from and I understand the concerns developers have (even if some in here don't). I don't doubt for a second Microsoft would love to close the PC platform up so everything goes through them. I also have no doubt that Microsoft will attempt to do it sometime in the future.

There is nothing I can do about it though. I am not bothering with Win 8 not because I am "boycotting" it. I just think it looks like utter shit and I am perfectly happy with Win 7.
 
Meanwhile Notch cashed in big on XBLA Minecraft... A closed platform.
 
Short version: Find me an MS Exec that doesn't get a giant turgid flappy end of year bonus boner over the thought of having a controlled storefront (we could call it, I don't know, XBLM maybe, something like that) on their dominant home PC OS.

They tried and failed, miserably, once before, or is everyone forgetting Live on the PC?

That went over like a lead balloon, but we have the NeXtBoX coming, Windows 8/9 coming, and Windows 8 phones and tablets reaching some degree of maturity.

If they can woo enough developers over to making apps for their storefront, and make that storefront the default, in your face, use this now place to go when you start up your PC, they very much can ram this down the throats of every new PC bought in the next few years.

You might be sitting there going 'but I can just go download my apps at www.awesomeapps.com and install them myself!'. Of course you can. And your cousins/uncles/mothers/aunts/grandfathers PC running IE6 with hilarious piles of spyware instead of Firefox or Chrome? Guess what, you're the minority, they're the majority.

I don't think they'd ever be stupid enough to lock off outside app installation, but you can bet there are some suits who would love to do just that.

Even ignoring that issue though, Microsoft's ability to control the default presentation of information on where and how to find and install new applications gives them a ridiculous amount of power over Joe User buying a new computer.

Developers are understandably concerned about this (and you should be too, if you give a shit about having an open pc platform to run YourAwesomeApps.exe freely).

All that said, I actually think a centralized place to find and install safe, virus free programs that do useful things for the average user is a good, smart feature - it just has some potentially unpleasant side effects depending on how they go about implementing and restricting it.
 
dani_dc said:
Thankfully Microsoft has tha covered, Windows 8 Enterprise Edition is the *only* version of Windows 8 that allow instalation of Metro apps outside of the Metro store.

Now you have to ask why did Microsoft feel the need to allow enterprises to do this?
Click to expand...

For their end users. It'd be much easier for an enterprise to lock down their users' machines if they controlled what apps they could and couldn't instal, which they already can in a number of ways. But this is another, and in many ways, a simpler method of doing so. Would make the IT dept. job much much easier.

EDIT: Instead of making another post, I'll just add it here......

Victrix that has to be the most fair and balanced post I've seen on this subject yet. And I mean anywhere.
 
frontieruk said:
This document contains the technical requirements and eligibility qualifications that a desktop app must meet in order to participate in the Windows 8 Desktop App Certification Program. For Windows 7, this program was known as the Windows Software Logo Program.

yeah fight the power of wait it was around for win 7 as well meh http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh749939.aspx
Click to expand...

A dev experience http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma/archi...e-why-did-i-sign-up-with-this-mess-again.aspx
 
Nibel said:
Where is the Notch hate coming from?
Click to expand...

My guess is that people are just getting sick of the Chicken Little reaction to Windows 8.

The same thing happened with Windows Vista. Everyone decided that they were going to hate it based on the early opinion movers. A couple years later Microsoft releases Windows 7 which is practically the same as Vista in all important areas and this time people decide they are going to love it.

Notch's response is just another example of this excessively dramatic posturing that people do with each OS release, even when there is little practical difference.
 
MrNyarlathotep said:
Because it took a fucking multi-million dollar tax funded global investigation, and MS still ignored the judgement ruled against them and carried on only offering IE by removing their legally obligated choice in their very first roll-up service patch.

Jesus Christ, this is why people are worried about Windows 8; because people are fucking oblivious to the shady tricks being pulled at every possible opportunity that has been the MS corporate style pretty much since their inception.
Click to expand...

Having an app store isn't shady at all. Your slippery slopes are not wanted.
 
dani_dc said:
Thankfully Microsoft has tha covered, Windows 8 Enterprise Edition is the *only* version of Windows 8 that allow instalation of Metro apps outside of the Metro store.

Now you have to ask why did Microsoft feel the need to allow enterprises to do this?
Click to expand...

Do you even understand what that means?
You can install apps that are only on Metro, outside of Metro.

This is completely irrelevant. If you want people to use your app outside of Metro, don't release it on Metro.
 
Zefah said:
So you were able to figure out the unintuitive stuff that makes things more difficult to do than the previous version. Good job! That still doesn't change the fact that the stuff is unintuitive for keyboard/mouse desktop users and some things are more difficult to do than the previous version as a result.
Click to expand...
I'll be the first to admit that removing the start button was an incredibly dumb decision by Microsoft, but beyond that, nothing is really "difficult."
 
Microsoft and Apple both know that if they lock people from installing whatever they want on their desktop/laptop machines, those people will look for alternatives. If MS does it, people might jump to Apple or Linux. If Apple does it, people might jump to Windows. If both, some other OS will gladly jump up and say "Hey, come over here! We don't lock you out! It might be rocky at first but eventually you'll love it!" (By which I'm picturing Ubuntu being that OS.)

As much as both parties would love to lock down their systems, they both know they can't. It's probably one of the main factors in Apple rebuilding the OS from the ground up for their phone and tablet. (Even if people do hate it and many will Jailbreak just to get their freedom back.)

Just the way things are in this day and age of technology.
 
MrNyarlathotep said:
Guys, its fine, I know most of your apps are for DOS and you get better performance and extended memory by using boot disks, but windows 3.1 runs just fine alongside DOS so I don't know where you'd get the idea that MS will try and lock down future versions of the OS into Windows only.

Its serious tinfoil hat thinking here, jeez.
Click to expand...

You're using logic that predates most of the user's heres birth.


As for why people (rightly) think Microsoft will eventually close down windows, you only have to look at it's competition AND it's other platforms. Windows 8 is first and foremost a tablet OS... so we have to look at it's competition (iOS and Android). First thing you'll note is that iOS is a completely closed system. You aren't allowed to install 3rd party apps AT ALL without jail breaking your device.

Now we look at Android. Android is a partially closed system, but one that has been so from conception. While it is possible to install third party apps, it's intentionally a hassle and third party markets are (rarely) installed by default giving Google's Play store a pretty unhealthy advantage.

So we know from that alone that Microsoft knows it CAN close it's systems and be able to make TONS of money doing so. Now let's take a look at all the other platforms Microsoft manages.... X-box, completely closed. Windows phone, completely closed. Windows RT (Windows 8 for ARM based devices) completely closed... So historically Microsoft has been PRO closed systems, it's just that before they never had a means to successfully close the loop and now they do.

That's not saying there is a guarantee they will, or even could completely... but you know how to prevent it? By being as loud and obnoxious about it NOW. If Microsoft KNOWS there will be massive outrage over a closed system, they will be a LOT less likely to try it... if you wait till it's already done, it'll be too late. Microsoft will take the initial hit and wait it out till people are FORCED to upgrade their platform to their closed system.
 
tokkun said:
The same thing happened with Windows Vista. Everyone decided that they were going to hate it based on the early opinion movers. A couple years later Microsoft releases Windows 7 which is practically the same as Vista in all important areas and this time people decide they are going to love it.
Click to expand...

You do realise Vista after 2 service packs is different to Vista at release right?

IHaveCandy said:
Having an app store isn't shady at all. Your slippery slopes are not wanted.
Click to expand...

That quote is replying to your ignorance about MS shady dealings with IE, and nothing to do with their app store machinations.

EDIT:
KojiKnight said:
Now we look at Android. Android is a partially closed system, but one that has been so from conception. While it is possible to install third party apps, it's intentionally a hassle and third party markets are (rarely) installed by default giving Google's Play store a pretty unhealthy advantage.
Click to expand...

Ironically, the biggest market for Android devices is Amazon and not Google Play.
 
GavinGT said:
What are we going to complain about next? Microsoft asking hardware developers for Windows 8 driver updates?

Some games have problems running under Windows 8, and Microsoft is trying to fix that promptly. It's to Notch's benefit to go along with it.
Click to expand...

Had that issue with Windows 7, remember logitech refused to make drivers
 
tokkun said:
My guess is that people are just getting sick of the Chicken Little reaction to Windows 8.

The same thing happened with Windows Vista. Everyone decided that they were going to hate it based on the early opinion movers. A couple years later Microsoft releases Windows 7 which is practically the same as Vista in all important areas and this time people decide they are going to love it.

Notch's response is just another example of this excessively dramatic posturing that people do with each OS release, even when there is little practical difference.
Click to expand...

Thanks, makes sense. And as someone else pointed out, he did release Minecraft via XBL which is also if closed platform scenario. funny.
 
xemumanic said:
My problem with this almost revisionist history is that most forget how IE came to be the most used browser. Yes, being a part of Windows was a major reason, but most forget the browser it was originally competing with Netscape Navigator. IE v1-3 lost out to Netscape until v4 came out for both, right around the same time. IE 4 was clearly better, and that's why most started switching over. I think that was as important a reason. Also, its fair to note that most every PC I was interested in buying (was looking to buy a new PC in that specific time) all came with both browsers installed by default.

Netscape 4 was a piece of shit. You didn't have to compare it to IE to see that; it sucked balls on its own merit.

This has somewhat little to do with the current conversation at hand, but its important to note when comparing this situation to the browsers.
Click to expand...
There was no revisioneering in my post; I wasn't attempting any kind of historical account of IE's rise to prominence -- its early success as a browser and its maintained success are vastly different landscapes. Looking beyond IE's formative, halcyon years, there's a reason IE7 was so widespread and it had nothing to do with being best in show. When comparing this situation to browsers (not that I'm saying that I'm correct in doing so), I'd argue it's *not* important to refer back to a point when MS's offering improved greatly on the other popular choice - Steam, GOG, etc. ain't Netscape 4.
 
MrNyarlathotep said:
You do realise Vista after 2 service packs is different to Vista at release right?



That quote is replying to your ignorance about MS shady dealings with IE, and nothing to do with their app store machinations.
Click to expand...
I don't understand the problem here (I mean, literally, I don't understand what is being said). What has Microsoft done with Internet Explorer that makes them so bad? And if it is such a problem, why not use another browser (like most people do)?
 
BocoDragon said:
Meanwhile Notch cashed in big on XBLA Minecraft... A closed platform.
Click to expand...

I don't see how that contradicts anything he's saying.

tokkun said:
My guess is that people are just getting sick of the Chicken Little reaction to Windows 8.

The same thing happened with Windows Vista. Everyone decided that they were going to hate it based on the early opinion movers. A couple years later Microsoft releases Windows 7 which is practically the same as Vista in all important areas and this time people decide they are going to love it.

Notch's response is just another example of this excessively dramatic posturing that people do with each OS release, even when there is little practical difference.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I used Vista for a couple of years and Windows 7 was a big improvement in many important areas.
 
Victrix said:
Even ignoring that issue though, Microsoft's ability to control the default presentation of information on where and how to find and install new applications gives them a ridiculous amount of power over Joe User buying a new computer.

Developers are understandably concerned about this (and you should be too, if you give a shit about having an open pc platform to run YourAwesomeApps.exe freely).

All that said, I actually think a centralized place to find and install safe, virus free programs that do useful things for the average user is a good, smart feature - it just has some potentially unpleasant side effects depending on how they go about implementing and restricting it.
Click to expand...

Microsoft is just helping giving exposure to software, while taking a fee and restricting them to be ran fullscreen. All the indies fell in love with Steam because of the exposure the service gave to their games, am I wrong?
Notch is just hating to look cool. His game took off by word of mouth, not everyone is as lucky. Microsoft is here to help with that now.

Why should I be concerned when I can still run MyAwesomeApps.exe freely?

All the shit that was here before is still here, will this Metro thing take market away from the guys who already have their software available online? No. It's a completely different market.
 
watership said:
Notch doesn't like it because he sees it as a threat to indie gaming. (Which is funny as he's now a Indie studio like George Lucas is an Indie film maker.)
Click to expand...

Indie = not beholden to a major publisher for funding, enabling you to retain your creative freedom. Making the games you want to make, because you want to make them.

Anything else is bullshit.
 
xemumanic said:
For their end users. It'd be much easier for an enterprise to lock down their users' machines if they controlled what apps they could and couldn't instal, which they already can in a number of ways. But this is another, and in many ways, a simpler method of doing so. Would make the IT dept. job much much easier.
Click to expand...

That's not what I was getting at, I agree that it's useful for enterprises to be able to control what can or can't be installed.

drkOne said:
Do you even understand what that means?
You can install apps that are only on Metro, outside of Metro.

This is completely irrelevant. If you want people to use your app outside of Metro, don't release it on Metro.
Click to expand...

Actually it's the opposite:

"Install WinRT apps from outside the Windows Store"

It allows you to install Apps from outside the Windows Store (not to outside), something that should be default behaviour of OS, instead it's an option allowed only for Enterprises so that they can develope their own Metro Apps and use them without having to go through the Windows Store exactly to avoid losing the Enterprise market while moving towards a closed enviorement.
 
Can we stop trying to refer to a 15 year old lawsuit? Have you ever considered that the company has changed since then? What recent history do you have?
 
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