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Nvidia responds to GTX 970 memory issue

Xdrive05

Member
Well, I guess they were thinking something in line of "let's sell cut down GM204 cards to these guys who can't buy a 980 for a lot less money while giving them a very good performance"?

So as I've been saying in the other thread:

a. 970 is a 4 GB card with driver trying to avoid allocation to a slow 0.5 GBs when possible.

b. If such allocation is unavoidable the performance drop seems to be in line with the same drop on a 980. This is a key thing here really as it shows that these 0.5 GBs doesn't make any difference in real games.

This "feature" is already shown in all 970 benchmarks and I don't see why it suddenly such a big issue now - your 970 is still performing exactly as it did when you bought it. You bought it after reading benchmarks - and these benchmarks were made on the exact same hardware as you've got, with the same memory allocation issue.

"Future proofing" isn't something that is ruined by having 0.5 out of 4 GBs of memory running slow.

Now we need to have benchmarks not from Nvidia to further investigate the impact of this issue on the real world games.

That's all well and good, but "future proofing" is absolutely tied to the amount of actually usable ram a card has. And we already have games where the drivers are needing to hold back allotted ram in order to not choke the 970. This is only going to get worse as games get more advanced and need more video memory.

Sure, the few current games offered by Nvidia as evidence that this isn't a major problem are not too much worse on paper where average frame rates are assessed. But why didn't they show frame pacing/times? Most likely you would get hitching issues, not average fps issues, when encountering this hardware limitation in the real world.

You're right on the last point. There's a lot more that needs to be investigated about this before we drop it.
 
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Naminator

Banned
..in the mean time I'll go on playing Battlefield 4 @4k ultra settings with 4xAA at 50-60fps on my 970SLI using up to 3.75GB of VRAM.

Honestly...bunch of drama queens.

Pretty much this!

Seriously, all of you complainers that were screwed by the scumbag Nvidia, why don't you fire up some games and show us some benchmarks, and demonstrate to us thats it's a big issue.
 

Zane

Member
This is only going to get worse as games get more advanced and need more video memory.

This isn't unique to the 970. Seriously, people keep bringing this up as if graphics cards don't eventually end up having trouble running the hottest new games. Tell me, how does your Voodoo 2 handle Far Cry 4?

Let me repeat:

Your 970 will become obsolete the same time the 980 does. Your 970 will become obsolete the same time the 980 does. Your 970 will become obsolete the same time the 980 does.
 

dr_rus

Member
That's all well and good, but "future proofing" is absolutely tied to the amount of actually usable ram a card has. And we already have games where the drivers are needing to hold back allotted ram in order to not choke the 970. This is only going to get worse as games get more advanced and need more video memory.

Sure, the few current games offered by Nvidia as evidence that this isn't a major problem are not too much worse on paper where average frame rates are assessed. But why didn't they show frame pacing/times? Most likely you would get hitching issues, not average fps issues, when encountering this hardware limitation in the real world.

You're right on the last point. There's a lot more that needs to be investigated about this before we drop it.
970 has 4 GB of RAM. All benchmarks are showing its performance with the issue. "Future proofing" anything is a myth because you can't know what future games will require. Maybe they'll require 8 GB of VRAM - then what? Or maybe - bare with me here - just maybe because of a lot of 970s being sold right now the devs will actually target 3.5 GBs of VRAM instead of 4? Can you honestly tell me what will happen? You can't "future proof" PC hardware. This has always been the case. You can only guess and, well, sometimes these guesses don't pay off.

Also - anyone who's thinking that loads of VRAM is equal to future proofing may go buy themselves a Titan. That thing has 6 GBs of it. Must be better than both 970 and 980!

What we need is to stop the drama and go do some benchmarks which won't be from Nvidia.
 

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
I guess it's up to everyone to decide if the 500 MB addition is worth the 200-250 EUR more that are asked for an 980.... I just bought the 970 from Gigybyte and this issue is not making me regret it one bit. The value for the price asked is still amazing when it comes to the 970 and horrible with the 980.
 

Zane

Member
From Reddit:

Like every other 970 user today, I ran the Nai's memory benchmark.
Results [1] yup, broken.
After pressing F to pay respects, I've decided to read more about the issue.
One of the things I've noticed is that people with different GPUs (Titan, 670, 980) were reporting similar results.
While reading what different people were reporting about the issue, I've noticed that one of the users said that the benchmark is meant to be ran in headless mode (with the screen being connected to iGPU) due to VRAM usage being anything other than 0 negatively affecting the results - something that isn't exactly mentioned a lot, and I'm willing to bet that a lot of you (and me) ran it "as is" and got incorrect scores.
Being lazy and noticing that other people were getting strange results (hundrets of TB/s, problems with other GPUs etc.) I've decided to try to replicate the issue with anything BUT Nai's benchmark.
First thing tested: EVGA OC Scanner X.
Although the highest setting of it's GPU memory burner is 3072MB, it filled up ~3900MB (which according to Nai's bench belongs in the "slow" area).
This screenshot [2] shows the test in progress with gpu-z used for monitoring. Important to notice is that GPU Load is at 99% - i.e. not bottlenecked by memory speeds being 10x worse than what they're supposed to be.
Next test: DA:I
I've ran Inquisition at 4k using nVidia DSR with everything set to maximum, including 4x MSAA to try to fill up as much VRAM as possible.
Starting [3] VRAM usage - 3037MB
A bit later [4] - 3305MB
Towards the end [5] - 3611MB
Important thing to note is that there was no sudden performance drop - something you would expect when a part of your VRAM is 10x slower.
Next game: watch_dogs, something I've seen people bring up a lot when talking about this issue.
Ran in 4k (dsr) with 4x msaa and 1440p (dsr) with 8x msaa on highest settings and max pre-rendered frames set to 1.
Switching the game to 4k with 4x msaa filled the VRAM completely really fast
4067MB [6]
4062MB [7]
Surprisingly, the game didn't run that bad considering the settings. There was some stuttering when rapidly turning around, but that is probably more due to VRAM being full rather than slow and it is to be expected in a 4k+4xMSAA scenario.
Running the game in 1440p combined with 8xMSAA resulted in no stutter, while keeping the VRAM usage at around 3,8GB
3832MB [8]
3838MB [9]
In conclusion: it really seems like that everything is fine - there was no performance drop in DA:I as the VRAM usage gradually rised from 3GB to 3,6 (according to my Nai's benchmark results, the "slow" area starts at 3200MiB, which is equal to 3355MB), Watch_Dogs ran at 4k with 4xmsaa at ~20-22 FPS, which is much better than I expected, and at 1440p with 8xmsaa at cinematic (~30-32) fps, with no stuttering that was present in 4k+4xmsaa due to VRAM being simply full.
And the most important part: GPU Usage was pretty much locked at 99% (except during sutters in w_d at 4k+4x), indicating that there was no bottlenecking in terms of memory bandwith suddenly becoming worse etc.

Go to the thread to see pics and stuff http://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/2tfybe/investigating_the_970_vram_issue/
 

teokrazia

Member
The opinion I have of my 970 hasn't changed that much.
I'm pretty curious to see, in the future, if the maturity and obsolescence of its life cycle will actually differ from the other cards I owned.
 

LOLCats

Banned
Interesting, wonder if this is just the 9xx series. I have some anecdotal expierience with that last 0.5gb on my 4gb 670.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
If it can be confirmed that that last 0.5GB isn't useable, then I don't see why not.

Surely they released bandwidth specs? Those would be fraudulent unless they gave separate figures for the last .5GB. Also, lol at you trying to justify your purchase.
 
Guy put a video up showing the difference between <3.5gb usage and >3.5gb .. this is crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQE6p5r1tYE

SLI is a terrible hack that will only come to show more issues as time goes along. Plus whatever he is using to record the video could affect it.

Surely they released bandwidth specs? Those would be fraudulent unless they gave separate figures for the last .5GB. Also, lol at you trying to justify your purchase.

Peak bandwidth, yea probably. It's like saying that you should get a refund on your PS4 because they didn't tell you that the memory speed degrades when it is used by both the CPU and GPU.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
how much slower must that 512MB be compared to the 'main' 3.5GB in order for people to consider the card barely better than a 3.5GB card?

I'd have had no issue if Nvidia had just shipped it with 3.5GB, or shipped it with 4 and said only 3.5GB was usable for games. It was so much cheaper than the 980 with good performance that I'd have accepted that.

But they didn't, and that's what I have an issue with. This isn't bottomed out yet, so still things to understand, but Nvidia's wording is a little worrying.
 

Bricky

Member
Pretty much this!

Seriously, all of you complainers that were screwed by the scumbag Nvidia, why don't you fire up some games and show us some benchmarks, and demonstrate to us thats it's a big issue.

I think it is a matter of principle to most. While it might not have real-world implications people feel like they have been lied to. Yes, there is a lot of overreacting going on at the moment, but you can't just entirely dismiss the issue either. Nvidia could (and should) have been upfront about this since the card was advertised as a full 'normal/equal performance' 4GB VRAM card while in reality a 0.5GB segment of it performs sub par. There is no reason to defend Nvidia for this, people have a good reason to complain.

And that is only if they are telling the complete story here, but I'm going to chillax and trust Nvidia for the time being unless good benchmarks from other trustworthy sources proof them wrong.
 
I understand owners being upset at what is a possible misrepresentation by NVIDIA, but is this still the best card in that price range? Are there any new cards releasing in the next two or three months that you would have waited for if this card had originally been labeled as a 3.5 GB card?
 
how much slower must that 512MB be compared to the 'main' 3.5GB in order for people to consider the card barely better than a 3.5GB card?

I'd have had no issue if Nvidia had just shipped it with 3.5GB, or shipped it with 4 and said only 3.5GB was usable for games. It was so much cheaper than the 980 with good performance that I'd have accepted that.

But they didn't, and that's what I have an issue with. This isn't bottomed out yet, so still things to understand, but Nvidia's wording is a little worrying.

We don't even know how much slower it is right now. Games are allowed to access the whole 4GB and there doesn't appear to be any obvious performance degradation so I can't tell what you are talking about or why you would say that Nvidia should've called it a 3.5GB card when has 4GB on it that games can use.

When a game requires more than 3.5GB of memory then we use both segments.
 
By design, as figured. The whole thing seemed far too big to be an oversight made by a leading GPU designer. I can't say I'm happy about the complete lack of transparency from Nvidia.
 

Vlaphor

Member
I just bought one a few days ago. It's a great card, but this still ticks me off. I could still return it, but I already got the free game with it, and I don't really want to go back to the 770 right now.

Plus, my plan was to sell the 770 for $170 to offset the cost (still needing to do that, anyone interested send me a message).
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
Does anyone know if this is only a problem with Hynix memory, or is Samsung affected too? My evga ftw uses Samsung.
 

Costia

Member
We don't even know how much slower it is right now. Games are allowed to access the whole 4GB and there doesn't appear to be any obvious performance degradation so I can't tell what you are talking about or why you would say that Nvidia should've called it a 3.5GB card when has 4GB on it that games can use.

There is a big difference between accessible and usable. The 0.5GB are accessible, but for all practical purposes, probably unusable due to the low bandwidth.
It looks like Nvidia have a walk-around implemented in their drivers, but they didn't specify what it is, is it applicable in all cases (or just the benchmarks they chose) or what is the actual impact on performance of their walk-around beyond average frame rate (i.e. does it cause stuttering?)
 

PnCIa

Member
Sounds kinda weird and shaddy to me. And yet, real world performance is not affected? Okay then, carry on. I have a 970 g1 gaming and could not be happier with it.
Also, i hope no one thinks that a 4Gb card is future proof. As devs get smarter with Ram allocation on consoles the vram requirements will rise beyond 4Gb for sure, especially when PC versions get higher-res textures. Thats the reason why i bought a 970 and saved around 200 bucks...because this card probably wont hold for the entire console generation when it comes to vram.
 
There is a big difference between accessible and usable. The 0.5GB are accessible, but for all practical purposes, probably unusable due to the low bandwidth.
It looks like Nvidia have a walk-around implemented in their drivers, but they didn't specify what it is, is it applicable in all cases (or just the benchmarks they chose) or what is the actual impact on performance of their walk-around beyond average frame rate (i.e. does it cause stuttering?)

Where is the evidence of this. People have show various games where they go over 3.5GB with no adverse effects.
 
Suddenly the r9 290x at the same price (at least in Europe) becomes relevant again.

And if AMD launches new cards that are energy efficient they would be once again WAY ahead of Nvidia, in a moment when I thought they had no chance.
 

Costia

Member
That isn't evidence. It's not a real-world application.
It is evidence. For now it isn't a real world application. This can change.
Since NVIDIA did not disclose what the walk-around is (or even how severe the problem is), there is no guarantee it will work in future games.
NVIDIA has a lot of explaining to do.
 
Seriously, all of you complainers that were screwed by the scumbag Nvidia, why don't you fire up some games and show us some benchmarks, and demonstrate to us thats it's a big issue.

You must have missed the part where games try to allocate 3.4 max to avoid problems, on these cards.
 

Bricky

Member
Are there any new cards releasing in the next two or three months that you would have waited for if this card had originally been labeled as a 3.5 GB card?

Personally; no, but there are a lot of people who already think 4.0 GB isn't enough to 'future proof' their systems. Those would've most certainly had second thoughts about buying the card had this been known before launch and I can't blame them.

I understand owners being upset at what is a possible misrepresentation by NVIDIA, but is this still the best card in that price range?

Of course it is still the absolute best card available in its price range at the moment. This technical misrepresentation doesn't change any of the glowing reviews or real-world gaming benchmarks done so far and its immense popularity is good indication of the great value on offer here. Unless further investigation shows significant game performance limitations this doesn't diminish the 970 itself to a new owner, just Nvidia's reputation depending on your opinion on the way the handled the situation and possibly false advertising.

The only thing I would advise is to postpone purchasing the card until we're sure there isn't more to this issue than Nvidia is willing to admit.
 

Zane

Member
do you own NVidia stock or something

No I just haven't seen compelling evidence that this impacts real-world performance in a meaningful way. People saying the card is "gimped" or that it somehow isn't what they paid for are delusional. Especially insane are the people saying it should have been sold as a 3.5GB card.
 
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