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Nvidia's Gameworks nerfing AMD cards and its own previous-gen GPU's?

cheezcake

Member
Well, of course, but this is the norm, not something that needs to be specified again.

We know for example the 970 is about 30% faster than a 770. The problem of inefficient code begins when that 30% is expanded to MUCH bigger values.

We are talking specifically about those cases where the gaps widens way past the hardware disparity.

It's generally 30% faster. Or alternatively, If we're talking about games which do not leverage specific hardware advantages of the architecture in a significant capacity.

Take the jump in tessellation performance between fermi and kepler. The 670 outperforms a 570 by over a factor of two in Tessmark at 1080p, and by almost a factor of four at 2560x1600. So if you have a game which makes heavy use of tessellation you'd see a drastically bigger performance difference than the typical 40-50% you'd get normally.
 

b0uncyfr0

Member
This is why i went with a 290x as my 1440p card instead of the 970/980. Cannot stomach my card getting nerfed after a new lineup comes up. NV is good at this!
 
From where do you take your fantasy?

On the now well known fact that 9XX cards lack certain hardware parts for DX12 support, that AMD cards instead still have.

Coming DX12, and lack of drivers optimization relevance, the balance changes.

9XX cards perform better than AMD because of drivers optimization replacing hardware support of certain things. Coming DX12, and the famous "close to the metal" access, means that optimization at the drivers level becomes far less relevant.

Hence, Nvidia will lose the current advantage they have on AMD at the drivers level.
 
...Yes, but that's plays a big part on the reason why Nvidia hardware is doing really poorly on DX12.

Nvidia removed from the chip a lot of stuff, in order to make it efficient, while doing that work right at the software level, in the drivers. That means that in order to keep that SPEED, they need to write custom controller code for EVERY game, basically.

The moment new hardware comes out is the moment Nvidia will stop writing specific controller code for 9XX, and that will be the time when 9XX will begin to perform really poorly compared to current AMD videocards.

The dependence of 9XX on drivers optimization to obtain good performance is much higher than 7XX. When Nvidia engineers will stop optimizing for 9XX (aka: when new hardware comes out and they want to sell it) then performance is going to be very bad.

It's long-term ugly.

youre referring to the hardware scheduler which was removed after fermi. and yes all scheduling has to be done in the compiler which must be a nightmare for nvidias driver team. youre wrong about maxwell being harder to extract performance from compared to kepler however. maxwell's shallower smm reaches much higher utilization than the smx in kepler. nvidia discussed how it was hard to get past 70% utilization in gk110 because of too many alu units in each smx.
 

Plum

Member
Nvidia wil be playing with fire if they decide to make the 970 obsolete when Pascal comes out. That card is the most used card on Steam by far, and I'm betting that a lot of those people can't afford a $400 upgrade every year.
 

Renekton

Member
I wouldn't expect DoJ to pursue Intel or Nvidia for anything at this time. There's nothing to pursue, neither Intel nor Nvidia have done anything wrong.

The anti-trust ruling against MS dramatically changed the way they acted regarding Windows specifically. There is no longer wide-scale integration of unrelated software functions into Windows the way they specifically integrated IE in order to take control of browsers. IE was already the de-facto browser before the anti-trust action started and it merely maintained momentum until meaningful competitors like Firefox and Chrome showed up, it's been declining ever since.
Well after AMD goes under. Nvidia doing shady stuff after that is a question of when, as this is a company that just sued everyone claiming to own the concept of a GPU.

The only significant effect of DoJ vs MS was they gotta share their APIs like a bro. It was a non-factor for them missing out on mobile (Ballmer famously dismissed iPhone) or Google (Bing).
 
youre referring to the hardware scheduler which was removed after fermi. and yes all scheduling has to be done in the compiler which must be a nightmare for nvidias driver team. youre wrong about maxwell being harder to extract performance from compared to kepler however.

Nope, if you are saying that Nvidia engineers have to write the scheduling in the drivers, and make it efficient, what I'm saying is that when new hardware comes out everything changes.

Nvidia will have those engineers focus on the newer hardware rather than write efficient schedulers for 9XX. They'll want to sell the new hardware and that hardware won't need all sort of detours and workarounds to run well on DX12.

Hence, 9XX hardware *depends* on those drivers, and when support is cut because Nvidia wants to focus on newer cards, those old 9XX are going to suffer.

Of course I'm not saying that when this happens Kepler will surpass Maxwell, I'm just saying that the "bonus" performance that 9XX enjoys will be erased, so similar AMD will instead perform comparatively much better.
 

wazoo

Member
Of course I'm not saying that when this happens Kepler will surpass Maxwell, I'm just saying that the "bonus" performance that 9XX enjoys will be erased, so similar AMD will instead perform comparatively much better.

You are dealing with scenarios involving future games that may run at 10fps without optimisation instead of 12 with huge optimizations.

At that time, Kepler or even Maxwell may be two, three or more generations behind in terms of specs of what is required by these new games.
 
Nope, if you are saying that Nvidia engineers have to write the scheduling in the drivers, and make it efficient, what I'm saying is that when new hardware comes out everything changes.

Nvidia will have those engineers focus on the newer hardware rather than write efficient schedulers for 9XX. They'll want to sell the new hardware and that hardware won't need all sort of detours and workarounds to run well on DX12.

Hence, 9XX hardware *depends* on those drivers, and when support is cut because Nvidia wants to focus on newer cards, those old 9XX are going to suffer.

Of course I'm not saying that when this happens Kepler will surpass Maxwell, I'm just saying that the "bonus" performance that 9XX enjoys will be erased, so similar AMD will instead perform comparatively much better.

yes, without a hardware scheduler its up to the driver. of course the same will happen with maxwell. what i was disagreeing with was your claim that its harder to extract performance out of maxwell than kepler. thats just false.
 
yes, without a hardware scheduler its up to the driver. of course the same will happen with maxwell. what i was disagreeing with was your claim that its harder to extract performance out of maxwell than kepler. thats just false.

No, I was saying that Maxwell relies more on active driver development, and so would hypothetically suffer more when that driver development stops to focus on newer hardware.

I know this applies to Maxwell. What I'm not sure about is how comparatively it applies to Kepler. As far as I know Kepler still have on hardware some stuff that Maxwell moved to the drivers. It might be as you say that both Kepler and Maxwell are affected, but this still paints a very ugly scenario.

But I wasn't saying that either. What I was saying is that the widening gap we have right now between Kepler and Maxwell is going to be way smaller than the widening gap between Maxwell and next generation. Because Maxwell, once again, depends on the drivers.
 

Locuza

Member
As far as I know Kepler still have on hardware some stuff that Maxwell moved to the drivers. It might be as you say that both Kepler and Maxwell are affected, but this still paints a very ugly scenario.

But I wasn't saying that either. What I was saying is that the widening gap we have right now between Kepler and Maxwell is going to be way smaller than the widening gap between Maxwell and next generation. Because Maxwell, once again, depends on the drivers.
1. There is nothing indicating that Maxwell did any changes in this regard.
2. There is also no guarantee that Pascal will made things different in this regard, so the development between Kepler, Maxwell and Pascal would be all the same.
3. You see how Kepler is doing now with Maxwell being on the market for over a years and Kepler is doing fine on the driver side.
The same will count for Maxwell.
It's not like the generic driver path is 100% slower than custom game profiles.
 
No, I was saying that Maxwell relies more on active driver development, and so would hypothetically suffer more when that driver development stops to focus on newer hardware.

I know this applies to Maxwell. What I'm not sure about is how comparatively it applies to Kepler. As far as I know Kepler still have on hardware some stuff that Maxwell moved to the drivers. It might be as you say that both Kepler and Maxwell are affected, but this still paints a very ugly scenario.

But I wasn't saying that either. What I was saying is that the widening gap we have right now between Kepler and Maxwell is going to be way smaller than the widening gap between Maxwell and next generation. Because Maxwell, once again, depends on the drivers.

kepler relied even more on drivers than maxwell due to the difficulties in getting passed 70% utilization. thats why they changed from an smx to an smm with maxwell. but all hardware scheduling was ditched after fermi. theres no hardware that was removed from kepler. the lack of a hardware scheduler is a big reason why nvidia gpus have been more power efficient than amds.
 

thelastword

Banned
Nvidia GameWorks is killing the pc market, It needs the end.
They're making massive profit by monopolizing the industry, these are the companies when they come crashing down, they come down hard. Gimping performance on old cards for the new, going completely overboard on visual features like tessellation, hairworks, smoke, not because it looks better or more realistic but because it's going to bring older cards to their knees. The people who always believe they need to keep up with gameworks, hence buying the new NVidia product every year are those who keeps this going.....It's a shame what's happening to this industry.
 
but all hardware scheduling was ditched after fermi. theres no hardware that was removed from kepler. the lack of a hardware scheduler is a big reason why nvidia gpus have been more power efficient than amds.

DX12: Fermi Strikes Back.

"They said I was hot, so I burned down their benchmarks."
 

spyshagg

Should not be allowed to breed
are people even seeing the video?



Jump to the fallout4 part and make sure you understand what happened. Nvida got caught red handed.


AMD cards gained 30% of performance when the 1.3 patch was released with an alternate renderer (which nvidia didn't bother to interfere with at studio level). Puts a lot of shame on bethesda as well, allowing 20% of the market to suffer.
 

Finaika

Member
The issue here is both actually smaller AND more widespread.

What happens is that optimization is only done for newer hardware, as new tier hardware comes out, Nvidia simply puts the time to optimize for the biggest seller at that point.

Right now the biggest seller is the 970, so all driver development and optimization goes there, at the expense of previous generation 7XX. When DX12 actually becomes more than vaporware you can expect the current 9XX to perform on par or WORSE than even consoles. I've said this before and people won't believe it, but it won't stop it from happening.

But the big problem here is that AMD does pretty much the same.

So eventually my PS4 will outperform my 980 Ti?
 

Zojirushi

Member
They're making massive profit by monopolizing the industry, these are the companies when they come crashing down, they come down hard. Gimping performance on old cards for the new, going completely overboard on visual features like tessellation, hairworks, smoke, not because it looks better or more realistic but because it's going to bring older cards to their knees. The people who always believe they need to keep up with gameworks, hence buying the new NVidia product every year are those who keeps this going.....It's a shame what's happening to this industry.

I think the problem ultimately is benchmarks with all of that shit turned on make people go "Fuck those AMD drivers man".

This will be poison for 2016 AMD GPUs as well.

I feel like review sites need to be aware of this and maybe prioritize GPU neutral feature benchmarking or something.
 
kepler relied even more on drivers than maxwell due to the difficulties in getting passed 70% utilization. thats why they changed from an smx to an smm with maxwell. but all hardware scheduling was ditched after fermi. theres no hardware that was removed from kepler. the lack of a hardware scheduler is a big reason why nvidia gpus have been more power efficient than amds.

I think I remember reading that it wasn't a simple sudden switch, but a progressive one.

Maxwell is WAY more efficient compared to Kepler, so it makes sense that they stripped it out even more.

It's Maxwell specifically that gained so much power efficiency compared to AMD. Not Kepler.

I'm just speculating with logic, though. I'm not 100% sure that Kepler works differently.
 

Tunned

Member
I owned a 480GTX from 2010 all the way to 2015 and the card held up brilliantly with most new releases including GTAV. I had no idea this was going on, I have a Titan X now, but WTF Nvidia!?
 
Well after AMD goes under. Nvidia doing shady stuff after that is a question of when, as this is a company that just sued everyone claiming to own the concept of a GPU.

The only significant effect of DoJ vs MS was they gotta share their APIs like a bro. It was a non-factor for them missing out on mobile (Ballmer famously dismissed iPhone) or Google (Bing).

Lawsuits like that occur all the time in the industry. I'm not condoning it but when MS, Apple, Google, Samsung, and everyone else are flinging lawsuits at each other like people shoot rubber bands at the office, it's hard to specifically crucify Nvidia for attempting a dumb lawsuit of their own while ignoring everyone else.

But yes I agree, it was all on MS for Ballmer laughing at iPhone and the botching of the Xbox One. That's got nothing to do with DoJ, competitors, or anti-trust.
 

gogogow

Member
So according to the video Nvidia nerfs their older cards.
AMD otoh stopped supporting their older cards.

AMD announced last year, as of 24 November 2015, the 5000, 6000, 7000 and 8000 series will be moved to the legacy support model category. Which means they will not get any new driver support anymore. Which is pretty bad, esp. for the (6000 and) 7000 series, since they still run games decently.

Nvidia otoh still has full driver support for cards dating all the way back to the 400 series. Very old cards like the 8000 series (E.g. GTX8800) got a new driver in November 2015.
 

cyen

Member
So according to the video Nvidia nerfs their older cards.
AMD otoh stopped supporting their older cards.

AMD announced last year that as of 24 November 2015 the 5000, 6000, 7000 and 8000 series will be moved to the legacy support model category. Which means they will not get any new driver support anymore. Which is pretty bad, esp. for the 6000 and 7000 series, since they still run games decently.

Nvidia otoh still has full driver support for cards dating all the way back to the 400 series. Very old cards like the 8000 series (E.g. GTX8800) got a new driver in November 2015.


7000 series were not moved to legacy. 7000 series is GCN arch.
 

rrs

Member
At launch, perhaps? Now yes, this does net Nvidia some nicer looking benchmarks but both sides had their fair share of "we give you cash and cool toys, we get day 1 driver advantage"
 
This garbage has been debunked but always comes back around when we get close to new GPUs launching...

AMD is no longer capable of competing with Nvidia on actual product so they try to start astroturfing FUD campaigns against Nvidia instead.

Judging from the representation of 970 on Steam Hardware Survey, I would say so far it's been hilariously unsuccessful. The Swift Boat Strategy or the Benghazi Strategy or more topically in the world of computers the Scroogled Strategy is extremely ineffective these days because of the Internet easily letting you debunk something with a simple Google search.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
This shit should be illegal. I shudder about the possibility of a Nvidia only market.

Yeah, it would be absolutely terrible. Like Apple but worse. Haven't had an Nvidia GPU since the 8800GT. That was a great card at a great price, too bad we don't see that side of NVIDIA all too often anymore. Loved my 5870 though and I'm really impressed with where my 280X gets me.

Meanwhile, AMD's special deal effects generally seem to run just as well on NVIDIA GPUs (Sometimes, even better :lol). Geez I wonder why???

Edit: Gotta say, I fucking love the accent in the video. Scots have the best accent.
 

Spinifex

Member
AMD is no longer capable of competing with Nvidia on actual product so they try to start astroturfing FUD campaigns against Nvidia instead.

Judging from the representation of 970 on Steam Hardware Survey, I would say so far it's been hilariously unsuccessful. The Swift Boat Strategy or the Benghazi Strategy or more topically in the world of computers the Scroogled Strategy is extremely ineffective these days because of the Internet easily letting you debunk something with a simple Google search.

You can't mention astroturfing here with a straight face. Astroturfing on nVidias behalf is legendary. Read the comments on any GPU article at TechReport, anandtech, etc. Pure fanboy dreck.
 
Nvidia monopoly is really bad for the industry as they are greedy, so I really wish AMD to get some success because they are doing great efforts with open source projects and also selling their products at affordable prices/performance ratio for everyone.
 
You can't mention astroturfing here with a straight face. Astroturfing on nVidias behalf is legendary. Read the comments on any GPU article at TechReport, anandtech, etc. Pure fanboy dreck.

"The conspiracy against AMD personally involves EVERYONE!!!!!!!"

Give me a break. Do you actually believe that everyone is paid by Nvidia to be biased against AMD? Is this real life?
 

Kezen

Banned
I strongly doubt Nvidia are actively limiting their Kepler offerings. I believe what is happening is the switch to compute which is GCN and Maxwell's territory. Hence why the 600/700 series do rather poorly vs GCN 1.
 

Spinifex

Member
"The conspiracy against AMD personally involves EVERYONE!!!!!!!"

Give me a break. Do you actually believe that everyone is paid by Nvidia to be biased against AMD? Is this real life?

I guess Astroturfing is the wrong word, these people are doing it for free for some reason. Theres plenty of AMD conspiracy nonsense too but it's drowned out most of the time.
 

Renekton

Member
Lawsuits like that occur all the time in the industry. I'm not condoning it but when MS, Apple, Google, Samsung, and everyone else are flinging lawsuits at each other like people shoot rubber bands at the office, it's hard to specifically crucify Nvidia for attempting a dumb lawsuit of their own while ignoring everyone else.
That's probably painting with a broad stroke. Google tends to play defense in the mobile legal front, buying up portfolios from Motorola and IBM to assist its handset partners while also still licensing a lot from MS. Meanwhile Apple tends to be the antagonist. Nvidia is trying to be the latter in the GPU industry.
 

The Hermit

Member
This is super damning!

Nvidia caught with smoking gun!

*fully expects nothing to change*

Unfortunately this the most likely outcome. nVidia has almost all the PC developers and user in their pockets.

Remember 3.5? Well, the GTx 970 was the best selling card last year.

Everything is rigged.
 

Zojirushi

Member
Nvidia monopoly is really bad for the industry as they are greedy, so I really wish AMD to get some success because they are doing great efforts with open source projects and also selling their products at affordable prices/performance ratio for everyone.

That used to be true. Then Rebrands and Fury happened.

AMD needs to get back to why people used to buy their cards.
 
My personal belief is that while there's a lot of misinformation floating around about why Kepler and AMD cards seem to perform worse in some games, in the end Nvidia's tactics aren't consumer friendly by any means, and are very much intended to obsolete their old products and push new ones. And that's a fair strategy as a company that's out to make profit, but it isn't beneficial for us as consumers. Making things like HairWorks that are just very inefficient effects meant to hobble their old cards and AMD cards more than their new cards isn't something I support. They could support things like Purehair that does it far more efficiently. Guess why we aren't seeing a HairWorks option in ROTTR? It would probably look pretty bad for Nvidia. The reason GameWorks exists is not to provide devs and gamers the best option for said effect, but to push more Nvidia sales. And most devs don't care, they simply see Nvidia doing their job for free.

One new thing to come to my attention is the lack of DX12 titles so far. What I've heard so far about DX12 patches is, "The performance is not there yet, DX11 still performs better". This is completely against what was touted when DX12 was released. We've seen AMD has a ton to gain using DX12, but what we've also seen is one other company struggling to make DX12 work right. So as a dev making a DX12 patch for your game, you see that it's making AMD cards xx% faster than in DX11, but also y% slower when using Nvidia cards, you probably don't feel confident in releasing said patch, because most of your users would not like that very much. I'm not saying this is the reality of it since we have no real data on the matter, but it's food for thought. It might very well take at least Pascal or even Volta before Nvidia's architecture is truly fitting for DX12 development. And this is not about feature level support, but how the architecture actually performs doing said stuff.
 
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