Support NeoGAF

[Rodin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a quite large bump from New 3DS to NX handheld.

It would be around 100x on the gpu side, which is why i'm a bit skeptical. Unless of course they clock the tegra really low and still get around 150gflops (which is basically wii u, so still a hell of a bump).

Tricks on us. The 1080 is the NX.

Boom.

$199 Handheld
540p top screen, small bottom low res Touchscreen
Slightly weaker than Wii U

$250 Console
controller with small low res Touchscreen
Slightly more powerful than Wii U


Full 3DS Backwards Compatible
Cross Buy Cartridges work on both Handheld and Console


Zelda graphics comparison
NX Console (High) - Wii U (Med) - NX Handheld (Low)

And if Zelda were to come out on PS4 it would be Ultra

Doesn't add up.

Let's not forget the $399 Wii U Premium Bundle was the lead sku for launch adopters. A console doesn't have to be $199, if it convinces consumers it has value. Neither does a hand held really. Again, designing a well balanced product is important - not just making something cheap.

But what if it's cheap and has tons of value for its price

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

These prices seem the most reasonable to me and are what I hope for.I can also see them pricing the home console at $300 by itself, or with a discount that drops it to $250 if you buy both the handheld and the console together.

I expect Nintendo to incentivize owning both SKUs in a big way.

Let's not forget the $349 Wii U Premium Bundle was the lead sku for launch adopters. A console doesn't have to be $199, if it convinces consumers it has value. Neither does a hand held really. Again, designing a well balanced product is important - not just making something cheap.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Let's not forget the $399 Wii U Premium Bundle was the lead sku for launch adopters. A console doesn't have to be $199, if it convinces consumers it has value. Neither does a hand held really. Again, designing a well balanced product is important - not just making something cheap.

It was $349.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

That image is measuring power consumption purely of the GPU, when down clocked to match the A8X's performance (so likely down to around 500MHz or so). The base clock is 1GHz and there's also a CPU and more on there, so actual power consumption is a lot higher. Still, it shows that when clocked down it can be surprisingly efficient, which would be good news for an NX handheld based on it.

Thanks, that explains a lot. Hopefully an NX handheld will be based on a newer design, though given the semiaccurate article mentions (apparently) that Nvidia isn't charging Nintendo a lot for the chips it probably won't be a 14nm part to rival Apple's A9X.

Still have no idea who could have AMD's ARM contract though.

Something definitely related to the server market now. There's also a rumour that Jim Keller wasn't a fan of AMD's K12 ARM designs and sidelined it in favour of Zen, so I guess not much work would have been done to make an ARM design that'd differ from its original purpose for servers. Which adds credence to the Nvidia Tegra rumour.

 

[Maxrunner]

Well as a big N fan this time I'll wait and see before on buying NX, but it's quite disappointing that Sony will have released 2 better consoles before this thing is even out.

 

[Vena]

Yeah, more worried about the screen quality than the rest (possibly the speakers too?).

I was actually making fun of the OLED in the OG Vitas, but I could just as easily make fun of the 3DS's terribly low-pixel density screens.

 

[daakusedo]

Vague rumour, was expecting much the way it was sold yesterday.

 

[James Scott]

Let's not forget the $349 Wii U Premium Bundle was the lead sku for launch adopters. A console doesn't have to be $199, if it convinces consumers it has value. Neither does a hand held really. Again, designing a well balanced product is important - not just making something cheap.

It's easier to add value to something that's easier to afford. Nintendo spent so much time trying to add value to the gamepad because that was adding $100 in cost and people didn't care for it. A $200-250 wii U at launch would've probably went much better with people.
It would be super weird to have a console and handheld so close to each other though

 

[QaaQer]

I see so we still know nothing, lol

X1 tech in hh, and home console between ps4 and x1--closer to x1 in power. So, not nothing.

 

[Eolz]

Vague rumour, was expecting much the way it was sold yesterday.

The handheld using Tegra is not really what I'd call vague.

edit:

Do you know what I hope Nintendo go with nothing higher than 540p for the handheld. 540p on a small screen for games looks really sharp. Anything more is a waste and will just make games less ambitious and kill battery life pushing more pixels.

The latest rumor was around 540p but it has been a while so who knows what they're aiming for. 540p would make a lot of sense though.

 

[KAL2006]

I was actually making fun of the OLED in the OG Vitas, but I could just as easily make fun of the 3DS's terribly low-pixel density screens.

Do you know what I hope Nintendo go with nothing higher than 540p for the handheld. 540p on a small screen for games looks really sharp. Anything more is a waste and will just make games less ambitious and kill battery life pushing more pixels.

 

[Vena]

X1 tech in hh, and home console between ps4 and x1--closer to x1 in power. So, not nothing.

This is not quite right, again, since we're getting multiple architectural differences. This is like Cell and Xenon. The comparison is meaningless in "power" terms on paper

Do you know what I hope Nintendo go with nothing higher than 540p for the handheld. 540p on a small screen for games looks really sharp. Anything more is a waste and will just make games less ambitious and kill battery life pushing more pixels.

PPI/DPI at 540p on a 5" is perfectly fine at nominal holding distances as you'd have near-retinal display.

 

[AmyS]

 

[KingSnake]

X1 tech in hh, and home console between ps4 and x1--closer to x1 in power. So, not nothing.

Plus that it's not X86 based. This practicaly much more info than anything we got until now. Quite interesting too.

Edit: Hh is Tegra based, we don't know how it's clocked though. Unless you meant Tegra X1.

 

[KingBroly]

So...if the GPU is Nvidia...what's the CPU?

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

It's easier to add value to something that's easier to afford. Nintendo spent so much time trying to add value to the gamepad because that was adding $100 in cost and people didn't care for it. A $200-250 wii U at launch would've probably went much better with people.It would be super weird to have a console and handheld so close to each other though

I don't think the price of the Wii U was as important as consumers wondering why they needed one in their living room. It was an unexciting product with lackluster launch software. Discussing the deterrence of price is inconclusive when the product itself was introduced in the worst possible light.

 

[daakusedo]

The handheld using Tegra is not really what I'd call vague.

This one happened today without notice, so not the rumour I'm talking about.

 

[Rodin]

Vague rumour, was expecting much the way it was sold yesterday.

Heh, it was to be expected actually.

This is not quite right, again, since we're getting multiple architectural differences. This is like Cell and Xenon. The comparison is meaningless in "power" terms on paper

Told ya!

So...if the GPU is Nvidia...what's the CPU?

If it's not x86, then it's 99% ARM. If we're talking about the portable it will be ARM for sure.

 

[Theanine3D]

Let's not forget the $399 Wii U Premium Bundle was the lead sku for launch adopters. A console doesn't have to be $199, if it convinces consumers it has value. Neither does a hand held really. Again, designing a well balanced product is important - not just making something cheap.

Following in the Wii U's footsteps when deciding the NX price (regardless of bundle or SKU) would be a huge mistake, unless we're assuming Nintendo is fine with not growing their existing fanbase further. They're a publicly traded company - so that's obviously not the case.

The only people who bought Wii U's (including at launch) were hardcore Nintendo fans. An increasingly shrinking minority who are known to be willing to spend hundreds to get those exclusive Nintendo experiences. Most gamers in the West are not like this, and never will be, not as long as Nintendo continues to fail to provide the games they want - shooters and open world games.

"Value" to most gamers outside of the Nintendo fanbase means having access to most or all third party games out there. Nintendo could make the most awesome console imaginable but if it still can't play Grand Theft Auto the value will always be a whopping $0 to millions of gamers out there.

 

[Vena]

So...if the GPU is Nvidia...what's the CPU?

Seemingly all NX hardware is going to be ARM as that's about the only logical equivalent left if x86 is off the table.

 

[Eolz]

So...if the GPU is Nvidia...what's the CPU?

We don't know, just that it's very likely ARM.

This one happened today without notice, so not the rumour I'm talking about.

Ah, my bad, thought that you were talking about that. I think people expected too much from Emily's post as usual.

 

[Thraktor]

Thanks, that explains a lot. Hopefully an NX handheld will be based on a newer design, though given the semiaccurate article mentions (apparently) that Nvidia isn't charging Nintendo a lot for the chips it probably won't be a 14nm part to rival Apple's A9X.

Well, for all we know Nvidia could have done Nintendo a deal on the X1 simply to use up a TSMC 20nm wafer purchase commitment (as the X1 is their only 20nm chip, and it's only been used in the Shield TV and the Pixel C, neither are big sellers). It may have been cheaper for them to sell the chips at a loss to Nintendo than to pay a penalty to TSMC for dropping out of their wafer order.

In theory it could be their 16nm Pascal-based Parker chip, which should be in products by the time NX launches, but I would suspect that would be too expensive for Nintendo.

Something definitely related to the server market now. There's also a rumour that Jim Keller wasn't a fan of AMD's K12 ARM designs and sidelined it in favour of Zen, so I guess not much work would have been done to make an ARM design that'd differ from its original purpose for servers. Which adds credence to the Nvidia Tegra rumour.

It could still be Nintendo, but with stock ARM cores (A57 or A72). K12 is targeting servers, so the kind of performance improvements they're targeting over the stock cores may not have been of much help in a game console environment.

 

[QaaQer]

This is not quite right, again, since we're getting multiple architectural differences. This is like Cell and Xenon. The comparison is meaningless in "power" terms on paper


PPI/DPI at 540p on a 5" is perfectly fine at nominal holding distances as you'd have near-retinal display.

It's from Emily, so I take it at face value.

In terms of raw power, numerous sources tell me that NX is much closer to Xbox One than PlayStation 4. Even that might be stretching it a tiny bit.

 

[Vena]

It's from Emily, so I take it at face value.

I know. What I am saying is that we don't have much in the way of comparable real world metrics given the now all but confirmed shifts in architecture. They have different meanings of "raw power" which is a non-linear, non-normalized value.

A 5W CW Verdi Laser.
A 5W Pulsed OPO Laser.

These two objects output the same power and are both lasers. They are vastly different things because they are designed in completely different ways.

 

[reelbigtink]

Well as a big N fan this time I'll wait and see before on buying NX, but it's quite disappointing that Sony will have released 2 better consoles before this thing is even out.

Define "better", because we have no idea what the NX is and what kind of output it'll have.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

According to the semiaccurate article Nvidia might be taking a loss on the deal with Nintendo.

This might make some sense actually, if you think about it, if Nintendo's OS is like iOS, Nintendo will likely stick with one CPU/GPU vendor indefinitely to ensure that things don't get broken like how Apple has stuck with PowerVR since the original iPhone.

So while we might be having a desperate Nvidia now, it'll probably pay off in the long run. If the rumours are true and NX is an all-Nvidia hardware lineup that sells in enough volume then we might even have a situation where Nintendo hardware dictates the direction and investment that Nvidia puts into new CPU/SoC designs for the handheld, or a semi-custom Tegra for the NX console. Since NX seems like a long-term, evolving platform rather than a cyclical 5-10 year fixed hardware generation Nvidia is guaranteeing itself business for a long period of time, potentially locking Nintendo into using their designs.

On the other hand, I am a bit wary. Nvidia has its own Android-based "platform", Shield. Would Nintendo really want to buy chips from a company that could end up being its own direct competitor, if NX handheld games could theoretically be easily ported to Nvidia's platform?

Edit:

Well, for all we know Nvidia could have done Nintendo a deal on the X1 simply to use up a TSMC 20nm wafer purchase commitment (as the X1 is their only 20nm chip, and it's only been used in the Shield TV and the Pixel C, neither are big sellers). It may have been cheaper for them to sell the chips at a loss to Nintendo than to pay a penalty to TSMC for dropping out of their wafer order.

In theory it could be their 16nm Pascal-based Parker chip, which should be in products by the time NX launches, but I would suspect that would be too expensive for Nintendo.

Okay I just saw this. This is probably the reason why, not my nonsense.

 

[Eolz]

I know. What I am saying is that we don't have much in the way of comparable real world metrics given the now all but confirmed shifts in architecture. They have different meanings of "raw power" which is a non-linear, non-normalized value.

A 5W CW Verdi Laser.
A 5W Pulsed OPO Laser.

These two objects output the same power. They are vastly different things.

Yep. Hell, for having worked with a big publisher in the past, some high-ranked people actually believe specs comparisons are just with the Ghz/etc numbers, and that the architecture is just something weird that has no impact.

 

[James Scott]

I don't think the price of the Wii U was as important as consumers wondering why they needed one in their living room. It was an unexciting product with lackluster launch software. Discussing the deterrence of price is inconclusive when the product itself was introduced in the worst possible light.

While it probably wouldn't of set the sales charts on fire, it would've done a lot more if it was considerably cheaper. People's expectations go up with a higher price and it's harder to convince someone to make the dive with a high barrier of entry.
Wii U had games people wanted, but the high cost made it so it was hard to rationalize buying one.
Think to the Wii and the 3DS, very low spec machines that appealed to the consumers thanks to the very different library and low barrier of entry

 

[KingSnake]

It's from Emily, so I take it at face value.

And even Emily says further in the article that an actual comparison in terms of raw power is irrelevant because of the different architecture.

 

[Vena]

On the other hand, I am a bit wary. Nvidia has its own Android-based "platform", Shield. Would Nintendo really want to buy chips from a company that could end up being its own direct competitor, if NX handheld games could theoretically be easily ported to Nvidia's platform?

I am almost certain that Shield is a failed venture, and nVidia would easily toss it aside if they got Nintendo as an alternative.

 

[James Scott]

According to the semiaccurate article Nvidia might be taking a loss on the deal with Nintendo.

This might make some sense actually, if you think about it, if Nintendo's OS is like iOS, Nintendo will likely stick with one CPU/GPU vendor indefinitely to ensure that things don't get broken like how Apple has stuck with PowerVR since the original iPhone.

So while we might be having a desperate Nvidia now, it'll probably pay off in the long run. If the rumours are true and NX is an all-Nvidia hardware lineup that sells in enough volume then we might even have a situation where Nintendo hardware dictates the direction and investment that Nvidia puts into new SoC designs for the handheld, or a semi-custom Tegra for the NX console.

On the other hand, I am a bit wary. Nvidia has its own Android-based "platform", Shield. Would Nintendo really want to buy chips from a company that could end up being its own direct competitor, if NX handheld games could theoretically be easily ported to Nvidia's platform?

Yeah, saw that on twitter. Seems interesting if true.
A powerful handheld would be very smart if Nintendo can manage it. It would hold back the console by quite a bit if it was too weak.
And the NX is in it for the long term being an OS system for Nintendo so taking a loss on it now is also pretty smart for Nvidia.

 

[Jackano]

Let's not forget the $349 Wii U Premium Bundle was the lead sku for launch adopters. A console doesn't have to be $199, if it convinces consumers it has value. Neither does a hand held really. Again, designing a well balanced product is important - not just making something cheap.

Not only the Wii U but the 3DS had a pretty hard launch because of its price.
I definitely think they are going back to lower prices, so $199 and $299.

 

[KAL2006]

According to the semiaccurate article Nvidia might be taking a loss on the deal with Nintendo.

This might make some sense actually, if you think about it, if Nintendo's OS is like iOS, Nintendo will likely stick with one CPU/GPU vendor indefinitely to ensure that things don't get broken like how Apple has stuck with PowerVR since the original iPhone.

So while we might be having a desperate Nvidia now, it'll probably pay off in the long run. If the rumours are true and NX is an all-Nvidia hardware lineup that sells in enough volume then we might even have a situation where Nintendo hardware dictates the direction and investment that Nvidia puts into new SoC designs for the handheld, or a semi-custom Tegra for the NX console.

On the other hand, I am a bit wary. Nvidia has its own Android-based "platform", Shield. Would Nintendo really want to buy chips from a company that could end up being its own direct competitor, if NX handheld games could theoretically be easily ported to Nvidia's platform?

True Nintendo could compete with NVidia Shield platform. However wouldnt that expand the software for that architecture. How COD comes out on PC/PS4/XB1. Nintendo could benefit software developers would target Nintendo Handheld and whatever NVidia comes up with.

 

[QaaQer]

And even Emily says further in the article that an actual comparison in terms of raw power is irrelevant because of the different architecture.

She says it isn't simple, not that it is impossible or irrelevant.

There will be plenty of debates over the NX’s specs because it’s not simple to directly compare two apples (with x86 architecture) to an orange (that doesn’t use x86 architecture). But everything that I’ve heard (so far) indicates that NX isn’t going to blow away any of the consoles on the market today…except for Wii U.

 

[Eolz]

For the twitter links above, his source is likely this from some pages ago

Apparently, the loss of consoles was a huge blow to NVidia's pride behind the scenes, and the team were told to get a "win" or don't bother coming to work. Nintendo got a good price on the chips. And yes, this is for the handheld only.

According to one of the SA sources, NVidia may even be taking a net loss on this one after software, support, and the whole shebang are done with. Crazy.

 

[ozfunghi]

So, if NX portable uses a down-clocked X1 or whatnot, and it's using ARM and Vulcan
how might say 300-400 Nvidia GFLOPS compare to the 176 PowerPC GFLOPS
in the Wi U?

Could the NX portable be more than twice as powerful as the Wii U?

The 176gflops of WiiU were not for the CPU but the GPU (which was AMD, not PPC).
The GPU inside NX handheld is Tegra, which one we don't know. It could be X1, it could be K1, or a modified chip. In theory Nvida performs better "per flop" than AMD. So IF the NX handheld uses a Tegra chip with 300 gflops, it would likely outperform the WiiU GPU more than twice.

So to conclude we don't know the power of the NX going by what Emily said until it's teared down, but the NX handheld could be more powerful than we thought?

Basically. However, she says a modern custom chip with about the raw power of the XBO... i'm leaning towards it outperforming the XBO/PS4 due to it being newer architecture with a newer feature set.

X1 tech in hh, and home console between ps4 and x1--closer to x1 in power. So, not nothing.

X1 tech in the handheld? Is this in the article? Because Fourth Storm only said Tegra iirc. You do mean Tegra X1 chip, right? And when you talk about PS4/X1 you're talking about the XBO, right?

 

[KingSnake]

She says it isn't simple, not that it is impossible or irrelevant.

Apples to oranges.

 

[QaaQer]

The 176gflops of WiiU were not for the CPU but the GPU (which was AMD, not PPC).
The GPU inside NX handheld is Tegra, which one we don't know. It could be X1, it could be K1, or a modified chip. In theory Nvida performs better "per flop" than AMD. So IF the NX handheld uses a Tegra chip with 300 gflops, it would likely outperform the WiiU GPU more than twice.



Basically.



X1 tech in the handheld? Is this in the article? Because Fourth Storm only said Tegra iirc. You do mean Tegra X1 chip, right? And when you talk about PS4/X1 you're talking about the XBO, right?

Yes.

Sorry for my imprecise wording, too many x1s.

 

[Jackano]

On the other hand, I am a bit wary. Nvidia has its own Android-based "platform", Shield. Would Nintendo really want to buy chips from a company that could end up being its own direct competitor

Be serious for a second. Nintendo doesn't even believe they are competing with sony and Microsoft...

 

[Schnozberry]

True Nintendo could compete with NVidia Shield platform. However wouldnt that expand the software for that architecture. How COD comes out on PC/PS4/XB1. Nintendo could benefit software developers would target Nintendo Handheld and whatever NVidia comes up with.

Nvidia doesn't customize unless Nintendo convinced them to enter a new market segment. They might license their technology to Nintendo to customize themselves, and advise them on design decisions based on their licensing and support agreement.

 

[ozfunghi]

Well, for all we know Nvidia could have done Nintendo a deal on the X1 simply to use up a TSMC 20nm wafer purchase commitment (as the X1 is their only 20nm chip, and it's only been used in the Shield TV and the Pixel C, neither are big sellers). It may have been cheaper for them to sell the chips at a loss to Nintendo than to pay a penalty to TSMC for dropping out of their wafer order.

In theory it could be their 16nm Pascal-based Parker chip, which should be in products by the time NX launches, but I would suspect that would be too expensive for Nintendo.

Does it say X1 in the article, or is there any other reason why everybody is speaking of the X1, and not K1 for instance?

 

[Eolz]

Does it say X1 in the article, or is there any other reason why everybody is speaking of the X1, and not K1 for instance?

I haven't seen Fourth Storm say anything about a specific chip, just that it's Tegra.
Seems that the conversation evolved from there. Likely a slightly custom chip from an existing design imo.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

So, we're thinking stronger than anticipated handheld and somewhat ho-hum console?

That's great for me if so. My 3DS gets way more play than my Wii U.

 

[daakusedo]

Efficience talk could be right, this article lacks tech knowledge but note that either way it insists on painting a not so powerful hardware.

 

[Plinko]

So, we're thinking stronger than anticipated handheld and somewhat ho-hum console?

That's great for me if so. My 3DS gets way more play than my Wii U.

Except it seems like a bizarre business decision as the handheld market is shrinking rapidly and the console market isn't.

That said, this "Tegra for the handheld" news is the best I've heard yet. That could be an amazing handheld.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I can't wait to see the NX. I wonder if a handheld and console are coming the same time in March.

I'm buying both regardless because I use my handheld and console, but the handheld being maybe stronger than we thought came out of left field for me lol.

I'm happy she hasn't talked about the SCD. I'm hoping that's something Nintendo is really holding close to themselves and we'll see the purpose of it when they reveal the NX system(s)

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

This is not quite right, again, since we're getting multiple architectural differences. This is like Cell and Xenon. The comparison is meaningless in "power" terms on paper

If the architectures are too different then all the talk of shared architecture will have been for naught, so I'm inclined to believe (if this power talk is true), it isn't anywhere near Cell/Xenon in disparity or an apple/oranges thing.

Also if true, pretty interesting the emphasis they're placing on the handheld; that's much more than I would have thought. Could it be possible Nintendo might be designing the NX handheld to future-proof it for handling mobile competition and ports better? If so in some way they have to frame it more as a mobile device in the messaging, but make sure the standard of quality in software is up to par w/ the previous handhelds. Which I think they can do, if they're really serious about it.

At the same time this makes me a bit more worried for the home console; what's their gameplan for a home console barely more capable than an XBO if they're going to attempt getting back Western 3rd parties and core gamers who would still be interested in a Nintendo home console?

 

[Vena]

If the architectures are too different then all the talk of shared architecture will have been for naught, so I'm inclined to believe (if this power talk is true), it isn't anywhere near Cell/Xenon in disparity or an apple/oranges thing.

What? What are you talking about?

 

[Graphics Horse]

When was the last time we heard about 'Loki', thought to be Sheild portable 2?

 

[Thraktor]

Nvidia doesn't customize unless Nintendo convinced them to enter a new market segment. They might license their technology to Nintendo to customize themselves, and advise them on design decisions based on their licensing and support agreement.

They'd customise for Nintendo. Or at least they should, as, going by historical trends, a Nintendo handheld would be by far the biggest selling Tegra-powered device ever. They developed a Denver version of the K1 which was only ever used in the Nexus 9, so they're clearly not averse to putting out single-device chips.

Does it say X1 in the article, or is there any other reason why everybody is speaking of the X1, and not K1 for instance?

No, people are just talking about the X1 as it's the most recent Tegra chip. It could be the K1, it could be a custom chip (the N1, perhaps?) or it could even be the upcoming Pascal-based "Parker" SoC.

The reason I was talking about it there is that it would explain why Nvidia would be willing to make a loss on the deal. As a point of reference, AMD was penalised to the tune of $320 million when they pulled out of a wafer order commitment with Global Foundries a few years back. That's the kind of order of magnitude you'd be looking at if (and it's a bit if) Nvidia had committed to large 20nm purchases from TSMC and they had to renege on them due to poor sales of the Nvidia X1. They'd be desperate to make the sale to Nintendo, as Nintendo would be pretty much the only customer buying in the quantity necessary to cover their wafer commitments, so would be willing to offer Nintendo an absurdly good deal, even to the point of making a loss on each chip sold, as it would still be better than paying the penalty to TSMC.