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NYT explains North Korea's capabilities & threat to the world, and Trump's options.

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-Plasma Reus-

Service guarantees member status
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/04/world/asia/north-korea-missile-program-sabotage.html?_r=0

This is a rich and detailed article about North Korea's capabilities, it's testing methods, the attempts and approaches the Obama administration had taken and the current state of the issue. The threat seems to be the biggest threat America will face, and the world to a larger extent. Obama personally warned Trump that this is the most immediate threat the US would face.

North Korea can comfortably reach all of the developed world if it successfully tests its KN-08, which can go as far as Spain on the other side of the world. Its KN-14, to a lesser extent, will reach at a maximum distance of the US. NYT shows images of both being paraded, they have not been flight tested yet. It is already too late to stop North Korea from learning how to make destructive weapons, the only thing possible now is to disrupt as much as possible.

Advocates of the sophisticated effort to remotely manipulate data inside North Korea's missile systems argue the United States has no real alternative because the effort to stop North Korea from learning the secrets of making nuclear weapons has already failed. The only hope now is stopping the country from developing an intercontinental missile, and demonstrating that destructive threat to the world.
The Obama administration has taken an approach called the 'left of launch', which means they would disrupt and sabotage as many tests and launches as they can. In this way, they were avoiding any military action, any strikes, and avoiding the use of the option of providing Nuclear weapons to South Korea, which could have resulted in an arms race.

Clinton, as secretary of state, provided a report:
”North Korea's next goal may be to develop a mobile ICBM that would be capable of threatening targets around the world," said an October 2009 cable marked ”Secret" and signed by Mrs. Clinton.
The next year, one of the new missiles showed up in a North Korean military parade, just as the intelligence reports had warned.

Obama was increasingly disturbed:
In the last year of his presidency, Mr. Obama often noted publicly that the North was learning from every nuclear and missile test — even the failures — and getting closer to its goal. In private, aides noticed he was increasingly disturbed by North Korea's progress.

With only a few months left in office, he pushed aides for new approaches. At one meeting, he declared that he would have targeted the North Korean leadership and weapons sites if he thought it would work. But it was, as Mr. Obama and his assembled aides knew, an empty threat: Getting timely intelligence on the location of North Korea's leaders or their weapons at any moment would be almost impossible, and the risks of missing were tremendous, including renewed war on the Korean Peninsula.

Experts say this can't be a permanent or long term solutions, it could have serious consequences:
A decision to go after an adversary's launch ability can have unintended consequences, experts warn.

Once the United States uses cyberweapons against nuclear launch systems — even in a threatening state like North Korea — Russia and China may feel free to do the same, targeting fields of American missiles. Some strategists argue that all nuclear systems should be off-limits for cyberattack. Otherwise, if a nuclear power thought it could secretly disable an adversary's atomic controls, it might be more tempted to take the risk of launching a pre-emptive attack.

”I understand the urgent threat," said Amy Zegart, a Stanford University intelligence and cybersecurity expert, who said she had no independent knowledge of the American effort. ”But 30 years from now we may decide it was a very, very dangerous thing to do."
Trumps options:
Mr. Trump has signaled his preference to respond aggressively against the North Korean threat. In a Twitter post after Mr. Kim first issued his warning on New Year's Day, the president wrote, ”It won't happen!" Yet like Mr. Obama before him, Mr. Trump is quickly discovering that he must choose from highly imperfect options.

Continue reading the main story
He could order the escalation of the Pentagon's cyber and electronic war effort, but that carries no guarantees. He could open negotiations with the North to freeze its nuclear and missile programs, but that would leave a looming threat in place. He could prepare for direct missile strikes on the launch sites, which Mr. Obama also considered, but there is little chance of hitting every target. He could press the Chinese to cut off trade and support, but Beijing has always stopped short of steps that could lead to the regime's collapse.

In two meetings of Mr. Trump's national security deputies in the Situation Room, the most recent on Tuesday, all those options were discussed, along with the possibility of reintroducing nuclear weapons to South Korea as a dramatic warning. Trump administration officials say those issues will soon go to Mr. Trump and his top national security aides.

And what he may have chosen out of these options:

Mr. Trump's ”It won't happen!" post on Twitter about the North's ICBM threat suggests a larger confrontation could be looming.
”Regardless of Trump's actual intentions," James M. Acton, a nuclear analyst at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace recently noted, ”the tweet could come to be seen as a ‘red line' and hence set up a potential test of his credibility."
 

jiiikoo

Banned
Na_ytto_kuva_2017_03_04_kello_16_47_11.png
 
If there is a protracted war in East Asia, then the refugee crisis that pops up from it will make Syria look like a simple walk in the park. And chances are, it completely cripples South Korea to a point where I believe it will never recover from.
 
China must have a price for completely cutting off North Korea. The US needs to ask what this price is and potentially be willing to pay it. What are the odds that the damage North Korea will cause will be less than the price that China requires?
 
China must have a price for completely cutting off North Korea. The US needs to ask what this price is and potentially be willing to pay it. What are the odds that the damage North Korea will cause will be less than the price that China requires?

China need(ed?) Nk as a buffer between SK and China . They mostly fear the US army in SK and US's influence in a united Korea . I guess US fear the same thing too ( China's influencing united Korea ) but US does not share her borders with Korea.

It won't be easy convincing China that US won't try to influence united Korea . US fear the opposite too.
 
China must have a price for completely cutting off North Korea. The US needs to ask what this price is and potentially be willing to pay it. What are the odds that the damage North Korea will cause will be less than the price that China requires?

No US military presence in South Korea.

That's not gonna happen.
 

kmfdmpig

Member
China must have a price for completely cutting off North Korea. The US needs to ask what this price is and potentially be willing to pay it. What are the odds that the damage North Korea will cause will be less than the price that China requires?

Even if that were true, and NK falling apart would be economically disastrous for China not to mention the risk of US bases moving further north, the Trump administration has not exactly engendered good will with China over the last month and a half.
 

SDCowboy

Member
Even if that were true, and NK falling apart would be economically disastrous for China not to mention the risk of US bases moving further north, the Trump administration has not exactly engendered good will with China over the last month and a half.

It's likely in China's best interest to allow the regime to fall and try and replace it so that NK can still exist.
 

Condom

Member
NK is not a threat to the world, what a ridiculous notion, cold war era fear mongering.

NK is hostile to the US because the US wants their imperialist pawns on the country just like with SK. They want to be independent. It's not rocket science, well it is if you use the US reasoning of 'we never do anything wrong and people hate us because freedomz not because we are total and utter assholes to the rest of the world'.
 

-Plasma Reus-

Service guarantees member status
NK is not a threat to the world, what a ridiculous notion, cold war era fear mongering.

NK is hostile to the US because the US wants their imperialist pawns on the country just like with SK. They want to be independent. It's not rocket science, well it is if you use the US reasoning of 'we never do anything wrong and people hate us because freedomz not because we are total and utter assholes to the rest of the world'.
I hope youre joking dawg.
 

SDCowboy

Member
NK is not a threat to the world, what a ridiculous notion, cold war era fear mongering.

NK is hostile to the US because the US wants their imperialist pawns on the country just like with SK. They want to be independent. It's not rocket science, well it is if you use the US reasoning of 'we never do anything wrong and people hate us because freedomz not because we are total and utter assholes to the rest of the world'.

Is this post for real?
 
Really good article, I've heard that the anti-missile defense systems were not that effective, but I didn't realize that they had a failure rate of close to 50% under optimal conditions. I assumed that technology had advanced pretty significantly given how successful Israel's anti-missile system has been, but that probably has a lot do with Israel defending attacks from a pretty narrow width range, and the Hammas rockets being slower/easier targets than an ICBM (or multiple ICBMS).

Also didn't realize how effective the cyberwarfare against NK has been, but now that they've apparently progressed past the US sabotage of their missiles, I'm really not sure what where they're headed once they achieve nuclear ICBMs.

NK is not a threat to the world, what a ridiculous notion, cold war era fear mongering.

NK is hostile to the US because the US wants their imperialist pawns on the country just like with SK. They want to be independent. It's not rocket science, well it is if you use the US reasoning of 'we never do anything wrong and people hate us because freedomz not because we are total and utter assholes to the rest of the world'.

You realize that, among many other things, the dude leading NK killed his uncle with anti-aircraft artillery and just assassinated his brother in law using VX nerve agent, right? Not exactly those most peaceful, love, mentally stable guy.

China need(ed?) Nk as a buffer between SK and China . They mostly fear the US army in SK and US's influence in a united Korea . I guess US fear the same thing too ( China's influencing united Korea ) but US does not share her borders with Korea.

It won't be easy convincing China that US won't try to influence united Korea . US fear the opposite too.

This is part of the reason, but China also allied with NK because NK is the only other communist nation in Asia, and one of the few remaining communist countries in the world. So the alliance is partly a geopolitical buffer, partly to prop up communist ideology in China.
 

vonStirlitz

Unconfirmed Member
China need(ed?) Nk as a buffer between SK and China . They mostly fear the US army in SK and US's influence in a united Korea . I guess US fear the same thing too ( China's influencing united Korea ) but US does not share her borders with Korea.

It won't be easy convincing China that US won't try to influence united Korea . US fear the opposite too.

They can still have their buffer. Just a massive radioactive one.
 

Condom

Member
You realize that, among many other things, the dude leading NK killed his uncle with anti-aircraft artillery and just assassinated his brother in law using VX nerve agent, right? Not exactly those most peaceful, love, mentally stable guy.
None of which are examples of NK being a threat for the world. This NYT propaganda article can be put in the same camp as 'Iran is going to nuke Israel any time now even though that would mean their own destruction!!!111'. Even after Iraq, you still believe this crap?
 
Is not the whole purpose of the US being in South Korea to counter North Korea? If the threat is removed then the US ought to remove itself from the peninsula. I really hope that the US deterring North Korea is not just a pretense.

Today's world is interconnected much more than ever. North Korea is a global problem. A nuke dropped on a city will be felt foremost by that particular country but I think we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that the ramifications will be far reaching and enduring. I'd ask how willing the world would be to pitch in and mitigate a NK humanitarian crisis but Syria definitely does not inspire hope.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
NK isn't much of a threat as in, if they attack they will be obliterated quickly. But they can manage to nuke whoever they want, especially SK or Japan. If not, they would have been taken out already.
 
None of which are examples of NK being a threat for the world. This NYT propaganda article can be put in the same camp as 'Iran is going to nuke Israel any time now even though that would mean their own destruction!!!111'. Even after Iraq, you still believe this crap?

They're examples of cruelty and careless use of weapons, the VX nerve agent being a banned chemical weapon that could have easily spread when it was used. The only reason they aren't currently a US threat is because their weapons can't reach the US.

It's not like they're saying "We want nuclear weapons to ensure the prosperity of our peaceful nation."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ts-of-nuclear-arsenal-on-korean-10419951.html

And it's not like in Iraq where there was suspicion that they have WMDs. They've publicly demonstrated multiple times that they do, indeed, already have WMDs (in fact, one of the points of these tests is to show off to the rest of the world that they possess these weapons). The only question is how far their weapons can reach; there's no question that they already have nuclear and chemical weapons.
 

Kyzer

Banned
None of which are examples of NK being a threat for the world. This NYT propaganda article can be put in the same camp as 'Iran is going to nuke Israel any time now even though that would mean their own destruction!!!111'. Even after Iraq, you still believe this crap?

Who do you believe ? The country where we can post about the government being assholes in the world and nk, russia, or terrorist groups actually being the victims, or the countries where theres censorship, youre not allowed to oppose the government, and they are under constant threat of being eliminated by the spread of democracy?
 

Rödskägg

Neo Member
They're examples of cruelty and careless use of weapons, the VX nerve agent being a banned chemical weapon that could have easily spread when it was used. The only reason they aren't currently a US threat is because their weapons can't reach the US.
Unless they're completely suicidal they probably won't attack the US even if they could reach them.

It's not like they're saying "We want nuclear weapons to ensure the prosperity of our peaceful nation."
Ironically, that's exactly what they're saying.

From an official bulletin:

The DPRK will take further measures to bolster the state nuclear force in quality and quantity for safeguarding its dignity and right to existence and genuine peace from the U.S. increasing threat of a nuclear war.

http://korea-dpr.info/pdf/DPRK%20Nuclear%20Test.pdf

And why would they say anything else? Do you think the north-korean people see themselves as the aggressor in the world? Everywhere on this planet they use the same excuse for weapon proliferation i.e "It's for self-defence."

It's a statement referring to a scenario where the US invades North-Korea. They never say they will attack the US.

And before anyone calls me a communist and fascist: No, I don't like that they have nukes. In fact, I don't like nukes, period.
And yes, there are a lot of problems in North-Korea. Let's just hope we don't try to "solve" them by starting a war.
 

Condom

Member
They're examples of cruelty and careless use of weapons, the VX nerve agent being a banned chemical weapon that could have easily spread when it was used. The only reason they aren't currently a US threat is because their weapons can't reach the US.

It's not like they're saying "We want nuclear weapons to ensure the prosperity of our peaceful nation."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ts-of-nuclear-arsenal-on-korean-10419951.html

And it's not like in Iraq where there was suspicion that they have WMDs. They've publicly demonstrated multiple times that they do, indeed, already have WMDs (in fact, one of the points of these tests is to show off to the rest of the world that they possess these weapons). The only question is how far their weapons can reach; there's no question that they already have nuclear and chemical weapons.

Iraq having or not having WMDs is not the point of the lie around the Iraq war. At least not for me, the point was that Iraq was a threat to the world. Iraq, instead of the powerful invading superpower, was the irrationally violent one. The premise has not changed when it comes to Iran and NK.
The stories about them are both about some irrational possibility or even goal of those countries to partake in violent policies that would mean a certain end of their own state. Even though the whole point of both NK and Iran's existence in their current form of state is based on independent continuations of the countries. Independent from America.
 
NK isn't much of a threat as in, if they attack they will be obliterated quickly. But they can manage to nuke whoever they want, especially SK or Japan. If not, they would have been taken out already.

Thats not reassuring at all. They could still cripple South Korea or Japan with a nuclear first strike, kill hundreds of thousands and wound millions more.
 

Rödskägg

Neo Member
Thats not reassuring at all. They could still cripple South Korea or Japan with a nuclear first strike, kill hundreds of thousands and wound millions more.
But this would be a literal death-sentence for NK. Do they really wish to die this much?

Like, "Hey everybody, let's nuke Tokyo and Seoul before we let ourselves get destroyed."
 
Rödskägg;231476712 said:
But this would be a literal death-sentence for NK. Do they really wish to die this much?

Like, "Hey everybody, let's nuke Tokyo and Seoul before we let ourselves get destroyed."
All options would be on the table for NK if Trump had them bombed in response to a missile test.
 
Was NK a threat before the Iraq War started? I was always suspicious of the lead up to the Iraq War because Kim Jong-Il was talking a lot of trash about attacking the US and we did nothing. It was all Saddam Saddam Saddam.

This article is disturbing nonetheless.
 

mnannola

Member
This is a bad read. In fact Trump seem very concerned over Korea. He's mentioned it multiple times as something serious and in fact was one of the few topics he requested more information on for his first few briefings

He may see it as serious, but if the news networks are not talking about it, how much time does he really dedicate to finding solutions?

Did he mention them once in his speech? Has he tweeted about NK lately? What actions has he taken to indicate he gives a shit?
 

Servbot #42

Unconfirmed Member
From what i have read NK is crazy enough to launch a nuke to the US and other countries, it seems insane but it is what it is. Now it falls on Trump to reach a possible solution for a trouble long in the making, welp.
 

Abounder

Banned
Obama personally warned Trump that this is the most immediate threat the US would face.

Bernie Sanders really was the president the country needed, dude called this shit even against the experienced Hillary.

Anyway biggest threat with NK is them selling nukes like it was their cash crop, and they definitely need the money. You can find NK war stuff and training all around the globe, they've been learning proxy warfare which would be the scariest scenario - nuclear terror
 

Rödskägg

Neo Member
All options would be on the table for NK if Trump had them bombed in response to a missile test.

From what i have read NK is crazy enough to launch a nuke to the US and other countries, it seems insane but it is what it is. Now it falls on Trump to reach a possible solution for a trouble long in the making, welp.
There may be lots of weird things going on in NK but I SERIOUSLY doubt that they would provoke an attack that leads to complete destruction of their nation and people. I mean...yeah....seriously guys...c'mon now.

Whatever the case, a military "solution" would be the worst possible course of action. Especially if, however unlikely, they would respond with nukes.
 
Is NK a massive threat to the world? In and of themselves, probably not. Having nuclear weapons and being a pariah state does make them a threat to regional stability, though, and that has obvious ripple effects globally. Nuclear proliferation is never a good thing.

And now Trump is managing the situation. God help us all.
 

7Th

Member
The average American's overestimation of America's own abilities to defend against enemy attacks is pretty staggering. If North Korea had the power they advertise themselves as having, they could take out every single major American city before getting obliterated.
 
Why are people so nonchalant about a rogue feudal kingdom having the ability to end civilization?

It doesn't have the ability to end civilization. It has the ability to devastate a handful of cities in South Korea and Japan before succumbing to counter attack. A North Korean nuclear attack would be a terrible tragedy, but it would be fairly brief and limited.

Also, the claims of NK being "crazy" are overstated and borderline racist. The Kim family are spoiled, eccentric figureheads. We have no reason to believe the actual political-military leadership is full of madmen. These regular NK scare stories, which I've been reading my entire life, are mainly driven by U.S. imperial ambitions.
 

leroidys

Member
They don't have the ability to end civilization.
A handful of nukes and the resultant counterattack would be a great enough ecological catastrophe to devastate the globe and reduce the carrying capacity to something that could bring the current structure of society to the brink.
Also, the claims of NK being "crazy" are overstated and borderline racist. The Kim family are spoiled, eccentric figureheads. We have no reason to believe the actual political-military leadership is full of madmen. These regular NK scare stories, which I've been reading my entire life, are mainly driven by U.S. imperial ambitions.
Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up 🙄
 

Madness

Member
I hope youre joking dawg.

There is a defense force for everything. Never mind the blatant 70 years of near Nazi Germany level fascism control in NK, the hundreds of thousands of humans languishing in prison gulags and concentration camps, the generational punishment system where you could grow up to a life of hard prison labor because your grandpa 50 years ago failed at doing something, the 1984 style Big Brother control of wiretapws in houses, only one channel blaring propaganda nonstop, the fact North Korea has committed assassinations and attacks on SK numerous times despite an armistice, it is the the US imperialist forces fault...

As for NK, they do not have the capability yet but they will. This is something that every 5 years you see changes. Unless the US forcibly goes for regime change through the actual end of humanitarian aid still propping up the regime and military, forcibly getting China to rein them in or stand aside, stepping up counter propaganda efforts like more money to help defectors and those escaping, more leaflets and counter broadcasts, you will see a nuclear north korea with enough expertise and knowhow to miniaturize a warhead and have ballistic missiles capable of reaching Hawaii or the West Coast. And then, unless the US preps for major first strike, you have a game changer in the ability for NK to inflicy harm on the US.

China is entirely to blame. They secretly helped Pakistan develop their nuclear weapons program and then the Chinese and Pakistani scientists like AQ Khan helped North Korea do the same before the US realized and tried its best to prevent.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
NK is not a threat to the world, what a ridiculous notion, cold war era fear mongering.

NK is hostile to the US because the US wants their imperialist pawns on the country just like with SK. They want to be independent. It's not rocket science, well it is if you use the US reasoning of 'we never do anything wrong and people hate us because freedomz not because we are total and utter assholes to the rest of the world'.

IP Address: China!
 

reckless

Member
Also, the claims of NK being "crazy" are overstated and borderline racist. The Kim family are spoiled, eccentric figureheads. We have no reason to believe the actual political-military leadership is full of madmen. These regular NK scare stories, which I've been reading my entire life, are mainly driven by U.S. imperial ambitions.

Or you know the threats every couple months against South Korea, Japan and the U.S (including preemptive nuclear strike threats) over literally everything...
 

legend166

Member
I don't understand why China gets a free pass for propping up the most despotic and horrific regime in the world that regularly threatens other nations with nuclear attack. North Korea would be bad enough just with how they treat their own citizens (who no one seems to care about at all) even without the nuclear threat. But hey China wants a buffer against the US, so go ahead and murder infants and bayonet pregnant women. As if the US couldn't steam roll through North Korea if for some bizarre reason they wanted to launch a land invasion of China.
 

pixelation

Member
Horrific... and we have that doofus in charge, somehow i really doubt he'll make the best choice if/when the time comes to take action. He really must go for humanity's sake.
 
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