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NYTimes Op-Ed: Why Gender Equality Stalled

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Mumei

Member
I really liked this op-ed. I think that the issue of work-life policies and our inability - both men and women - to arrange our family lives around the egalitarian values many of us we say we have due to structural issues is very important. The OP is rather lengthy; I apologize for that. I did try to bold this time, though! I think that one of the biggest issues is that these policies are now seen as women's issues when they should rightly be seen - because men care just as much and want to be involved in their children's lives just as much - as parent's issues. I'm not really sure how, but I think one of the biggest things that the movements (worker's rights, feminist movements, etc.) can do is to find ways to get men's support on these issues.

If you click the link at the bottom you'll see some supplementary graphs and maps with some of this information in visual form, for the visual learners (I think I heard this was a myth, though...) out there!

Oh, and don't start arguments about unrelated stuff (abortion, sex, paternity, rape, etc.); keep things within the scope of this topic.

Why Gender Equality Stalled
By STEPHANIE COONTZ

THIS week is the 50th anniversary of the publication of Betty Friedan’s international best seller, “The Feminine Mystique,” which has been widely credited with igniting the women’s movement of the 1960s. Readers who return to this feminist classic today are often puzzled by the absence of concrete political proposals to change the status of women. But “The Feminine Mystique” had the impact it did because it focused on transforming women’s personal consciousness.

In 1963, most Americans did not yet believe that gender equality was possible or even desirable. Conventional wisdom held that a woman could not pursue a career and still be a fulfilled wife or successful mother. Normal women, psychiatrists proclaimed, renounced all aspirations outside the home to meet their feminine need for dependence. In 1962, more than two-thirds of the women surveyed by University of Michigan researchers agreed that most important family decisions “should be made by the man of the house.”

It was in this context that Friedan set out to transform the attitudes of women. Arguing that “the personal is political,” feminists urged women to challenge the assumption, at work and at home, that women should always be the ones who make the coffee, watch over the children, pick up after men and serve the meals.

Over the next 30 years this emphasis on equalizing gender roles at home as well as at work produced a revolutionary transformation in Americans’ attitudes. It was not instant. As late as 1977, two-thirds of Americans believed that it was “much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and the woman takes care of the home and family.” By 1994, two-thirds of Americans rejected this notion.

But during the second half of the 1990s and first few years of the 2000s, the equality revolution seemed to stall. Between 1994 and 2004, the percentage of Americans preferring the male breadwinner/female homemaker family model actually rose to 40 percent from 34 percent. Between 1997 and 2007, the number of full-time working mothers who said they would prefer to work part time increased to 60 percent from 48 percent. In 1997, a quarter of stay-at-home mothers said full-time work would be ideal. By 2007, only 16 percent of stay-at-home mothers wanted to work full time.

Women’s labor-force participation in the United States also leveled off in the second half of the 1990s, in contrast to its continued increase in most other countries. Gender desegregation of college majors and occupations slowed. And although single mothers continued to increase their hours of paid labor, there was a significant jump in the percentage of married women, especially married women with infants, who left the labor force. By 2004, a smaller percentage of married women with children under 3 were in the labor force than in 1993.

SOME people began to argue that feminism was not about furthering the equal involvement of men and women at home and work but simply about giving women the right to choose between pursuing a career and devoting themselves to full-time motherhood. A new emphasis on intensive mothering and attachment parenting helped justify the latter choice.

Anti-feminists welcomed this shift as a sign that most Americans did not want to push gender equality too far. And feminists, worried that they were seeing a resurgence of traditional gender roles and beliefs, embarked on a new round of consciousness-raising. Books with titles like “The Feminine Mistake” and “Get to Work” warned of the stiff penalties women paid for dropping out of the labor force, even for relatively brief periods. Cultural critics questioned the “Perfect Madness” of intensive mothering and helicopter parenting, noting the problems that resulted when, as Ms. Friedan had remarked about “housewifery,” mothering “expands to fill the time available.”

One study cautioned that nearly 30 percent of opt-out moms who wanted to rejoin the labor force were unable to do so, and of those who did return, only 40 percent landed full-time professional jobs. In “The Price of Motherhood,” the journalist Ann Crittenden estimated that the typical college-educated woman lost more than $1 million dollars in lifetime earnings and forgone retirement benefits after she opted out.

Other feminists worried that the equation of feminism with an individual woman’s choice to opt out of the work force undermined the movement’s commitment to a larger vision of gender equity and justice. Joan Williams, the founding director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California’s Hastings College of the Law, argued that defining feminism as giving mothers the choice to stay home assumes that their partners have the responsibility to support them, and thus denies choice to fathers. The political theorist Lori Marso noted that emphasizing personal choice ignores the millions of women without a partner who can support them.

These are all important points. But they can sound pretty abstract to men and women who are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to arranging their work and family lives. For more than two decades the demands and hours of work have been intensifying. Yet progress in adopting family-friendly work practices and social policies has proceeded at a glacial pace.

Today the main barriers to further progress toward gender equity no longer lie in people’s personal attitudes and relationships. Instead, structural impediments prevent people from acting on their egalitarian values, forcing men and women into personal accommodations and rationalizations that do not reflect their preferences. The gender revolution is not in a stall. It has hit a wall.

In today’s political climate, it’s startling to remember that 80 years ago, in 1933, the Senate overwhelmingly voted to establish a 30-hour workweek. The bill failed in the House, but five years later the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 gave Americans a statutory 40-hour workweek. By the 1960s, American workers spent less time on the job than their counterparts in Europe and Japan.

Between 1990 and 2000, however, average annual work hours for employed Americans increased. By 2000, the United States had outstripped Japan — the former leader of the work pack — in the hours devoted to paid work. Today, almost 40 percent of men in professional jobs work 50 or more hours a week, as do almost a quarter of men in middle-income occupations. Individuals in lower-income and less-skilled jobs work fewer hours, but they are more likely to experience frequent changes in shifts, mandatory overtime on short notice, and nonstandard hours. And many low-income workers are forced to work two jobs to get by. When we look at dual-earner couples, the workload becomes even more daunting. As of 2000, the average dual-earner couple worked a combined 82 hours a week, while almost 15 percent of married couples had a joint workweek of 100 hours or more.

Astonishingly, despite the increased workload of families, and even though 70 percent of American children now live in households where every adult in the home is employed, in the past 20 years the United States has not passed any major federal initiative to help workers accommodate their family and work demands. The Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 guaranteed covered workers up to 12 weeks unpaid leave after a child’s birth or adoption or in case of a family illness. Although only about half the total work force was eligible, it seemed a promising start. But aside from the belated requirement of the new Affordable Care Act that nursing mothers be given a private space at work to pump breast milk, the F.M.L.A. turned out to be the inadequate end.

Meanwhile, since 1990 other nations with comparable resources have implemented a comprehensive agenda of “work-family reconciliation” acts. As a result, when the United States’ work-family policies are compared with those of countries at similar levels of economic and political development, the United States comes in dead last.

Out of nearly 200 countries studied by Jody Heymann, dean of the school of public health at the University of California, Los Angeles, and her team of researchers for their new book, “Children’s Chances,” 180 now offer guaranteed paid leave to new mothers, and 81 offer paid leave to fathers. They found that 175 mandate paid annual leave for workers, and 162 limit the maximum length of the workweek. The United States offers none of these protections.

A 1997 European Union directive prohibits employers from paying part-time workers lower hourly rates than full-time workers, excluding them from pension plans or limiting paid leaves to full-time workers. By contrast, American workers who reduce hours for family reasons typically lose their benefits and take an hourly wage cut.

Is it any surprise that American workers express higher levels of work-family conflict than workers in any of our European counterparts? Or that women’s labor-force participation has been overtaken? In 1990, the United States ranked sixth in female labor participation among 22 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which is made up of most of the globe’s wealthier countries. By 2010, according to an economic research paper by Cornell researchers Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn, released last month, we had fallen to 17th place, with about 30 percent of that decline a direct result of our failure to keep pace with other countries’ family-friendly work policies. American women have not abandoned the desire to combine work and family. Far from it. According to the Pew Research Center, in 1997, 56 percent of women ages 18 to 34 and 26 percent of middle-aged and older women said that, in addition to having a family, being successful in a high-paying career or profession was “very important” or “one of the most important things” in their lives. By 2011, fully two-thirds of the younger women and 42 percent of the older ones expressed that sentiment.

Nor have men given up the ideal of gender equity. A 2011 study by the Center for Work and Family at Boston College found that 65 percent of the fathers they interviewed felt that mothers and fathers should provide equal amounts of caregiving for their children. And in a 2010 Pew poll, 72 percent of both women and men between 18 and 29 agreed that the best marriage is one in which husband and wife both work and both take care of the house.

BUT when people are caught between the hard place of bad working conditions and the rock wall of politicians’ resistance to family-friendly reforms, it is hard to live up to such aspirations. The Boston College study found that only 30 percent of the fathers who wanted to share child care equally with their wives actually did so, a gap that helps explain why American men today report higher levels of work-family conflict than women. Under the circumstances, how likely is it that the young adults surveyed by Pew will meet their goal of sharing breadwinning and caregiving?

The answer is suggested by the findings of the New York University sociologist Kathleen Gerson in the interviews she did for her 2010 book, “The Unfinished Revolution: Coming of Age in a New Era of Gender, Work, and Family.” Eighty percent of the women and 70 percent of the men Ms. Gerson interviewed said they wanted an egalitarian relationship that allowed them to share breadwinning and family care. But when asked what they would do if this was not possible, they described a variety of “fallback” positions. While most of the women wanted to continue paid employment, the majority of men said that if they could not achieve their egalitarian ideal they expected their partner to assume primary responsibility for parenting so they could focus on work.

And that is how it usually works out. When family and work obligations collide, mothers remain much more likely than fathers to cut back or drop out of work. But unlike the situation in the 1960s, this is not because most people believe this is the preferable order of things. Rather, it is often a reasonable response to the fact that our political and economic institutions lag way behind our personal ideals.

Women are still paid less than men at every educational level and in every job category. They are less likely than men to hold jobs that offer flexibility or family-friendly benefits. When they become mothers, they face more scrutiny and prejudice on the job than fathers do.

So, especially when women are married to men who work long hours, it often seems to both partners that they have no choice. Female professionals are twice as likely to quit work as other married mothers when their husbands work 50 hours or more a week and more than three times more likely to quit when their husbands work 60 hours or more.

The sociologist Pamela Stone studied a group of mothers who had made these decisions. Typically, she found, they phrased their decision in terms of a preference. But when they explained their “decision-making process,” it became clear that most had made the “choice” to quit work only as a last resort — when they could not get the flexible hours or part-time work they wanted, when their husbands would not or could not cut back their hours, and when they began to feel that their employers were hostile to their concerns. Under those conditions, Professor Stone notes, what was really a workplace problem for families became a private problem for women.

This is where the political gets really personal. When people are forced to behave in ways that contradict their ideals, they often undergo what sociologists call a “values stretch” — watering down their original expectations and goals to accommodate the things they have to do to get by. This behavior is especially likely if holding on to the original values would exacerbate tensions in the relationships they depend on.

In their years of helping couples make the transition from partners to parents, the psychologists Philip and Carolyn Cowan have found that tensions increase when a couple backslide into more traditional roles than they originally desired. The woman resents that she is not getting the shared child care she expected and envies her husband’s social networks outside the home. The husband feels hurt that his wife isn’t more grateful for the sacrifices he is making by working more hours so she can stay home. When you can’t change what’s bothering you, one typical response is to convince yourself that it doesn’t actually bother you. So couples often create a family myth about why they made these choices, why it has turned out for the best, and why they are still equal in their hearts even if they are not sharing the kind of life they first envisioned.

Under present conditions, the intense consciousness raising about the “rightness” of personal choices that worked so well in the early days of the women’s movement will end up escalating the divisive finger-pointing that stands in the way of political reform.

Our goal should be to develop work-life policies that enable people to put their gender values into practice. So let’s stop arguing about the hard choices women make and help more women and men avoid such hard choices. To do that, we must stop seeing work-family policy as a women’s issue and start seeing it as a human rights issue that affects parents, children, partners, singles and elders. Feminists should certainly support this campaign. But they don’t need to own it.

Link
 

Kimawolf

Member
There has been a basic gender equality perception problem in America when feminist began to try to claim more and more “people/family” issues as strictly women issues. By them doing that they began to push the same kind of myths as those they were created to fight. The first step to get men to accept the problem is to change the name and restart the debate but this time instead of coming at the problem from a purely female perspective, we come at it from an all inclusive stand. And they’ll see through this change, the issues they originally had framed as women’s issues will get solved.

I think like with most things, how you say it and frame the discussion will determine it’s acceptance or dismissal.
 

Mumei

Member
There has been a basic gender equality perception problem in America when feminist began to try to claim more and more “people/family” issues as strictly women issues. By them doing that they began to push the same kind of myths as those they were created to fight. The first step to get men to accept the problem is to change the name and restart the debate but this time instead of coming at the problem from a purely female perspective, we come at it from an all inclusive stand. And they’ll see through this change, the issues they originally had framed as women’s issues will get solved.

I think like with most things, how you say it and frame the discussion will determine it’s acceptance or dismissal.

I don't think that really makes sense. How could feminists have created the perception that these were women's issues? If you read the OP you'll see that the vast majority of people, both men and women, believed that was the case before feminists tried to do any consciousness raising on these issues. And we know historically that the withdrawal of men from family life occurred in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries due, well, structural divisions relating to the increasing demarcation between "work" and "home," not in the 1960s and 70s when feminists were first talking about these issues. You are right that we need to find a way to be more inclusive, but I think that the framing of people/family issues as women's issues was a reflection of attitudes at the time, and not the cause of them. And I think that the change in attitudes - even if our institutions haven't caught up - can be taken as a victory.
 

grumble

Member
I'm not totally on board with this article. To achieve career success, it's often required to work long hours. That career success is an important aspect of raising a child as it provides an income stream. There is also a major issue around the time commitment in raising a child, meaning it is impractical in many cases for both partners to work full time and raise a child. For efficiency reasons and because its easier for one partner to adjust their lifestyle around a kid than both being crippled by it, there is a division of responsibility that absolutely makes sense.

If the argument is that the man should be equally willing to forfeit his career, then maybe so. There are biological considerations, however; the woman goes through the pregnancy and for many families is also the source of nutrition for the infant. Having her be the primary caregiver makes some sense, though obviously it could go either way. While in my experience women tend to be the more inclined of the two genders to take that role, a man could and sometimes does choose to make the career sacrifices to raise te kid.

My recommendation if people want a society where women don't have to make sacrifices for children they choose to have would be free 24 hour childcare available in every town. A crèche model would be even more efficient as it uses economies of scale in child raising while both parents work. Such a model wouldn't definitely make women's lives easier; the economy would adjust to a certain dual income and women would now be forced to work.

I just hope what we are trying to accomplish makes people's lives better and not just marching towards an abstract goal that may or may not result in a happier society.
 
Out of nearly 200 countries studied by Jody Heymann, dean of the school of public health at the University of California, Los Angeles, and her team of researchers for their new book, “Children’s Chances,” 180 now offer guaranteed paid leave to new mothers, and 81 offer paid leave to fathers. They found that 175 mandate paid annual leave for workers, and 162 limit the maximum length of the workweek. The United States offers none of these protections.
That's incredibly sad.
 

Kimawolf

Member
I don't think that really makes sense. How could feminists have created the perception that these were women's issues? If you read the OP you'll see that the vast majority of people, both men and women, believed that was the case before feminists tried to do any consciousness raising on these issues. And we know historically that the withdrawal of men from family life occurred in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries due, well, structural divisions relating to the increasing demarcation between "work" and "home," not in the 1960s and 70s when feminists were first talking about these issues. You are right that we need to find a way to be more inclusive, but I think that the framing of people/family issues as women's issues was a reflection of attitudes at the time, and not the cause of them. And I think that the change in attitudes - even if our institutions haven't caught up - can be taken as a victory.

What I am saying is they didn't "create" the issues, but by them taking the cause, even if men saw it in the same light, due to who was preaching the message it was no longer a topic most felt they could openly discuss. Just like with politics, Liberals and conservatives can say the same things and depending on who you are, you'd call one a liar and the other one a truth speaker. The term "feminist" had a very negative connotation in the U.S. For many decades, just look at the reactions to Betty Friedan's book in the 60's. Many people who included doctors, politicans even all said that she was dead wrong, despite even then if people felt "Well maybe women should be given a choice in the workforce, in all things, maybe society is wrong", wouldn't come out and say it now because of who they believed was the messenger.

These days, its different, equality is closer than ever and it's no longer just self proclaimed feminist saying things like we need a more Egalitarian society, so that is what makes the conversation no longer simply dismissed.

I'm just saying sometimes the messenger, rightly or wrongly, taints the message. And now with more people actually coming out and saying it and perhaps with a more accepting, forward thinking generation we can talk about those issues that the original feminist brought up 50 years ago.
 

Mumei

Member
Kimawolf: Ah, I misread you, then. Sorry!

I just hope what we are trying to accomplish makes people's lives better and not just marching towards an abstract goal that may or may not result in a happier society.

I think that the argument is less "Our family arrangements should take this form," and more, "Our institutions shouldn't be a structural impediment that prevents families who want to be in an egalitarian relationship from doing so." So I don't think she's saying, for instance, "the man should be equally willing to forfeit his career"; I think she's saying that men would like to be involved in their children's lives to the same degree their wives are, but because of structural realities (such as those Rocket Scientist quoted, particularly the dearth of options for men) it is often something that is not possible. You're obviously right about, for instance, your point that for some families it simply makes sense for the woman being the primary caregiver - and I suspect that is why there are so many countries that provide paid leave to mothers and not to fathers, though I think it should be available to both - but I think that the article is more about the dearth of options families face and not about arguing for a particular form.

In other words, I think the article is less "Men should feel _____," and more "Men and women do feel ______, but they are prevented from organizing their lives around those values."
 

M-PG71C

Member
Economics and government policy likely stalled the movement, in which I am in agreement with. My wife and I both work as RNs, and she'll be returning to school next year for her NP. Both of us cannot, economically anyway, go to school at the same time. So one of us has to work full time while the other is still working PRN.

In terms of career advancement, her's makes more sense than mine at this moment. She has more experience and more time in job than I do. Advance education in combo with that ensures a significantly higher paycheck and a quicker turn-around time for looking for work.

We don't have kids. At this time, we couldn't have them in a ideal circumstance because of education/money/whatever. The idea is to make as much money as possible so things like prenatal care, general healthcare, time-off, etc is more viable without destroying the balance between work/life. It's never going to be perfect but we are young and we have more than enough time to put our house in order before it comes.

I think most modern families struggle with the same issues ultimately. Both parents are going to work, not out of choice, but out of sheer circumstance. Roles be damned, its about the money. What you hope for is that you both are working well-paid jobs with good hours that will help support a healthy balance.

And with the U.S. policies in place today, I would go so far to say that its nearly impossible for most people to achieve this.
 

Palmer_v1

Member
Kimawolf: Ah, I misread you, then. Sorry!



I think that the argument is less "Our family arrangements should take this form," and more, "Our institutions shouldn't be a structural impediment that prevents families who want to be in an egalitarian relationship from doing so." So I don't think she's saying, for instance, "the man should be equally willing to forfeit his career"; I think she's saying that men would like to be involved in their children's lives to the same degree their wives are, but because of structural realities (such as those Rocket Scientist quoted, particularly the dearth of options for men) it is often something that is not possible. You're obviously right about, for instance, your point that for some families it simply makes sense for the woman being the primary caregiver - and I suspect that is why there are so many countries that provide paid leave to mothers and not to fathers, though I think it should be available to both - but I think that the article is more about the dearth of options families face and not about arguing for a particular form.

In other words, I think the article is less "Men should feel _____," and more "Men and women do feel ______, but they are prevented from organizing their lives around those values."

I can certainly see that in my personal experience. I work until 7pm normally, while my wife is off closer to 3pm. If we want to have dinner at a decent time, it's just more convenient for her to start cooking before I'm off work. She's unfortunately being stuck in that homemaker role due to schedule issues.
 

grumble

Member
Kimawolf: Ah, I misread you, then. Sorry!



I think that the argument is less "Our family arrangements should take this form," and more, "Our institutions shouldn't be a structural impediment that prevents families who want to be in an egalitarian relationship from doing so." So I don't think she's saying, for instance, "If the argument is that the man should be equally willing to forfeit his career, then maybe so." I think she's saying that men would like to be involved in their children's lives to the same degree their wives are, but because of structural realities (such as those Rocket Scientist quoted, particularly the dearth of options for men) it is often something that is not possible. You're obviously right about, for instance, your point that for some families it simply makes sense for the woman being the primary caregiver - and I suspect that is why there are so many countries that provide paid leave to mothers and not to fathers, though I think it should be available to both - but I think that the article is more about the dearth of options families face and not about arguing for a particular form.

In other words, I think the article is less "Men should feel _____," and more "Men and women do feel ______, but they are prevented from organizing their lives around those values."

Fair enough. Men should absolutely have the same options as women do if they choose to be a primary caregiver or otherwise share in the responsibilities in a less old-school fashion. I just found the tone of the article pointed me towards a divorcing of expectations and reality, which isn't just structural impediments but logical division of work. Everyone, men and women want to have their cake and eat it too, and life doesn't work like that. Sometimes you'll have to work more than you want or less than you want as a result of having a kid.

What I do think is to stop with the idea that because someone has made career sacrifices to have kids that it makes them less of a person. It's a choice and having kids is not mandatory by any means, but if someone does so and finds that the way the family unit is set up they have to cut their career aspirations short, well, that's a self-inflicted restriction that doesn't devalue the individual.


On a separate note, I'm interested to see the background for the women get paid less for the same job thing. When you eliminate the effects of pregnancy and temporarily dropping out of the workforce to raise kids, is the difference similarly pronounced?
 
It's interesting to me that I've actually seen this article pop up on Facebook from both friends of very liberal and very conservative persuasions (
yes I have lots of both
), so I'd very much buy this being far from a feminism issue. Ask any full-time homemaker, even if they are totally 100% happy at home and never plan on going back to work, if they would prefer that their working spouse got a couple of months paid time off for the birth of a new child to help the new family settle in or if they would prefer that their spouse have to go right back to their 50 hour a week work week right after.

My wife stays at home and plans on doing so for most / all of the years where are kids are at home. But I totally know how happy she was that I'm lucky enough to work at an American company were all parents of either gender get four full weeks paid off for maternity / paternity leave. And it's been helpful for some of the women on our team that they've been able to take significant chunks of maternity time off and be able to come back to the team at their old jobs. I'm a huge proponent of families getting as much time as possible with their children, so any law / proposal that helps with things like increased paternity / maternity time off, easier work sharing, better part time work options I'm totally for.
 
OP don't you also think many women themselves have started to get this false notion that we are better off than we ever were and there is a laziness which has crept in to push such basic reform such as equal pay? I just cant see the effort as vocal as it should be.
 

BigDug13

Member
Could the fact that more and more minorities are growing in the American population have something to do with this as well? More traditional gender roles in many of the cultures of these minorities means more of America's overall population lives within those gender roles which will continue to grow as our minority population grows.
 

Mumei

Member
On a separate note, I'm interested to see the background for the women get paid less for the same job thing. When you eliminate the effects of pregnancy and temporarily dropping out of the workforce to raise kids, is the difference similarly pronounced?

I don't know about pregnancy specifically, but:

U.S. Department of Labor said:
There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. These variables include:

  • A greater percentage of women than men tend to work part-time. Part-time work tends to pay less than full-time work.
  • A greater percentage of women than men tend to leave the labor force for child birth, child care and elder care. Some of the wage gap is explained by the percentage of women who were not in the labor force during previous years, the age of women, and the number of children in the home.
  • Women, especially working mothers, tend to value “family friendly” workplace policies more than men. Some of the wage gap is explained by industry and occupation, particularly, the percentage of women who work in the industry and occupation.

Research also suggests that differences not incorporated into the model due to data limitations may account for part of the remaining gap. Specifically, CONSAD’s model and much of the literature, including the Bureau of Labor Statistics Highlights of Women’s Earnings, focus on wages rather than total compensation. Research indicates that women may value non-wage benefits more than men do, and as a result prefer to take a greater portion of their compensation in the form of health insurance and other fringe benefits.

Of course, as this editorial points out, these "choices" that women make are not necessarily truly volitional, and I think this actually describe differences in behavior that arise from the interaction of how institutions are gendered and how families organize themselves in response to that. Both men and women say that work hours cause work-family conflicts (49% of men in 2008; up 15% from 1977 according to the Families and Work Institute’s workplace flexibility report), and yet women are usually more likely to take time off work or take a job that allows for that flexibility, and this has a lot to do with the fact that these parenting issues of flexible work hours and child care are seen as mother's issues in the workplace. This is also exacerbated when we consider single mothers, because mothers are generally given custody for precisely the same reason - mothers end up doing the bulk of the child care, which in turn effects her ability to hold a full-time job. This is also true for other nurturing roles such as elder care.

So I think that it's more accurate to say that a great deal of the wage discrepancy is better explained by structural impediments combined with fallback positions that usually result in women making career sacrifices than by intentional discrimination than to say, "Well, if you pretend that 65 - 76% of the wage discrimination doesn't exist, then it's actually almost negligible."
 

Kimawolf

Member
so practically, like everything else. Government stalls progress because it is meant to stall progress.

Yes I'd not place all the blame on government. Society as a whole is responsible. We enforce and praise those who can work 60 hour weeks and belittle those who do not. We say they are not TRULY striving for all they can be when they do. To this day, many women are still called out for working, some even told they are not good "mothers" because of it. NPR just did a story on this very thing about an hour ago actually. Our society makes it hard for people to be able to have a truly equal life with our partners. So we have ot change mindsets first of whats an acceptable work week for instance, what's acceptable when taking things like paternity and maternity leave, sick days, time with the family etc first, then other things will change.
 
On one hand, I take huge issue with America's obsession with working its employees to death. I'm all for lowering the hours in a work week, whether that's a cultural or a legislative battle. Our culture of "productivity" saps our quality of life.

On the other hand, I resent that many people who want to have a baby treat it as an inalienable right to do so whenever they'd like. Having a child is really just narcissism spurred on by the selfish biological urge to spread your genes.

I mean, if I want to get a dog and take time off to care for it, should I get paid leave? Why is my desire to take time off worth less than yours (Mr and Mrs Imaginary Parents) just because my vacation isn't spent popping out spawn?
 

thefro

Member
I don't know about pregnancy specifically, but:



Of course, as this editorial points out, these "choices" that women make are not necessarily truly volitional, and I think this actually describe differences in behavior that arise from the interaction of how institutions are gendered and how families organize themselves in response to that. Both men and women say that work hours cause work-family conflicts (49% of men in 2008; up 15% from 1977 according to the Families and Work Institute’s workplace flexibility report), and yet women are usually more likely to take time off work or take a job that allows for that flexibility, and this has a lot to do with the fact that these parenting issues of flexible work hours and child care are seen as mother's issues in the workplace. This is also exacerbated when we consider single mothers, because mothers are generally given custody for precisely the same reason - mothers end up doing the bulk of the child care, which in turn effects her ability to hold a full-time job. This is also true for other nurturing roles such as elder care.

So I think that it's more accurate to say that a great deal of the wage discrepancy is better explained by structural impediments combined with fallback positions that usually result in women making career sacrifices than by intentional discrimination than to say, "Well, if you pretend that 65 - 76% of the wage discrimination doesn't exist, then it's actually almost negligible."

Exactly, ultimately business culture has to change to where it's acceptable to for both women and men to take off work/have flexible hours for child care. And anyone who chooses to have a healthy family life shouldn't be punished for it in the workplace.
 

Petrie

Banned
I mean, if I want to get a dog and take time off to care for it, should I get paid leave? Why is my desire to take time off worth less than yours (Mr and Mrs Imaginary Parents) just because my vacation isn't spent popping out spawn?

1000x this. Parents always think they have some special privilege because they decided to breed. Bullshit.
 
On one hand, I take huge issue with America's obsession with working its employees to death. I'm all for lowering the hours in a work week, whether that's a cultural or a legislative battle. Our culture of "productivity" saps our quality of life.

On the other hand, I resent that many people who want to have a baby treat it as an inalienable right to do so whenever they'd like. Having a child is really just narcissism spurred on by the selfish biological urge to spread your genes.

I mean, if I want to get a dog and take time off to care for it, should I get paid leave? Why is my desire to take time off worth less than yours (Mr and Mrs Imaginary Parents) just because my vacation isn't spent popping out spawn?

Dogs aren't human beings with rights protected by the constitution, etc.

Also kids are necessary to keep up this whole social welfare thing so they're actually helping secure the future of the country.
 
Dogs aren't human beings with rights protected by the constitution, etc.

Dogs are both cuter and smarter than babies.

Also, tons of dogs are suffering in shelters and kennels right this second, while a parent doesn't have to birth a child. Nothing necessitates its existence.

Also kids are necessary to keep up this whole social welfare thing so they're actually helping secure the future of the country.

Some are, some aren't. 47% lol.

But in seriousness, I do understand this viewpoint. However, if you're going to make a strictly utilitarian argument, then issue licenses to have a child.
 

grumble

Member
Exactly, ultimately business culture has to change to where it's acceptable to for both women and men to take off work/have flexible hours for child care. And anyone who chooses to have a healthy family life shouldn't be punished for it in the workplace.

I disagree. If someone decides to devote a lot of time to their family, their career can absolutely suffer and there is nothing wrong with that. Careers require time and if you are not willing to dedicate that time then you don't earn the career rewards. It is irrelevant whether this is due to a child, personal laziness or your passion for rock climbing.

As to who can take that time off, I agree; either gender if desired.
 

Kimawolf

Member
On one hand, I take huge issue with America's obsession with working its employees to death. I'm all for lowering the hours in a work week, whether that's a cultural or a legislative battle. Our culture of "productivity" saps our quality of life.

On the other hand, I resent that many people who want to have a baby treat it as an inalienable right to do so whenever they'd like. Having a child is really just narcissism spurred on by the selfish biological urge to spread your genes.

I mean, if I want to get a dog and take time off to care for it, should I get paid leave? Why is my desire to take time off worth less than yours (Mr and Mrs Imaginary Parents) just because my vacation isn't spent popping out spawn?

Dogs and children are not comparable, as been said, one group is protected under the constitution and actually required to keep society and the world moving, the other is simply a pet used to enhance one's quality of life. That's why.
 

Petrie

Banned
I disagree. If someone decides to devote a lot of time to their family, their career can absolutely suffer and there is nothing wrong with that. Careers require time and if you are not willing to dedicate that time then you don't earn the career rewards. It is irrelevant whether this is due to a child, personal laziness or your passion for rock climbing.

As to who can take that time off, I agree; either gender if desired.

Yup. Parents always thinking they should get special privilege. Utter bullshit. Choosing to have kids is just like any other major life decision, and you have to reap the consequences as well as the benefits.

Dogs and children are not comparable, as been said, one group is protected under the constitution and actually required to keep society and the world moving, the other is simply a pet used to enhance one's quality of life. That's why.

We have more than enough children in the world as it is. We do not need to give special treatment to parents to get the species to continue propagating.
 
Dogs are both cuter and smarter than babies.

Also, tons of dogs are suffering in shelters and kennels right this second, while a parent doesn't have to birth a child. Nothing necessitates its existence.



Some are, some aren't. 47% lol.

But in seriousness, I do understand this viewpoint. However, if you're going to make a strictly utilitarian argument, then issue licenses to have a child.



Don't get me wrong, I love dogs. But they require far less care than a human, have shorter lifespans, etc. There's not really a need for paid time off to effectively care for a dog.

Sidestepping the whole "human rights issue" for a moment, licenses would only serve to reduce overall child production.
The last thing we want to happen is for America to become another Europe or Japan or something where the birth rate falls below repopulation (last I checked it was around 2.1 in the US?)

We're seeing all sorts of problems happen in those areas because there aren't enough kids to support aging populaces and maintain the social welfare system.
 

Mumei

Member
On one hand, I take huge issue with America's obsession with working its employees to death. I'm all for lowering the hours in a work week, whether that's a cultural or a legislative battle. Our culture of "productivity" saps our quality of life.

On the other hand, I resent that many people who want to have a baby treat it as an inalienable right to do so whenever they'd like. Having a child is really just narcissism spurred on by the selfish biological urge to spread your genes.

I mean, if I want to get a dog and take time off to care for it, should I get paid leave? Why is my desire to take time off worth less than yours (Mr and Mrs Imaginary Parents) just because my vacation isn't spent popping out spawn?

I agree with you that non-parents should have better options (and as a gay man who is not likely to have children, I would benefit more personally from policies guaranteeing mandated paid leave than I would from policies that relating to taking time off or flexible hours for parenting), but let's not make this topic Dogs vs Kids, even if Dogs are better.
 

Petrie

Banned
I agree with you that non-parents should have better options (and as a gay man who is not likely to have children, I would benefit more personally from policies guaranteeing mandated paid leave than I would from policies that relating to taking time off or flexible hours for parenting), but let's not make this topic Dogs vs Kids, even if Dogs are better.

I don't think he was making it dogs vs kids. He's saying that if you offer paid time off it shouldn't be conditional specifically to kids. I should be able to get the same thing for whatever I deem worthy. Anything else is simply discriminating against non-parents.
 
I don't think he was making it dogs vs kids. He's saying that if you offer paid time off it shouldn't be conditional specifically to kids. I should be able to get the same thing for whatever I deem worthy. Anything else is simply discriminating against non-parents.

Are you guys seriously not seeing the difference between "I need time and money to care for a helpless child that we as a nation have a vested interest in seeing brought up so that they can contribute to society" and "I just wanna go smoke some weed on the beach brah, pay me for it"
 
I agree with you that non-parents should have better options (and as a gay man who is not likely to have children, I would benefit more personally from policies guaranteeing mandated paid leave than I would from policies that relating to taking time off or flexible hours for parenting), but let's not make this topic Dogs vs Kids, even if Dogs are better.

My post is more about your suggestion of mandated paid leave versus maternity/paternity leave. That intially sounds like a great option to me, although I've not read studies on how it affects a business, employee earnings, etc.

I just think if we're viewing the act of having a baby as something that is selfish and primarily benefitting the parents, then at least emotionally, I resent it as something to take time off of work for. Meanwhile, I'm stuck at my shitty job (posting on GAF now!), and I don't get time off for equally selfish goals.

I merely used taking care of a dog as an example because (1) I'd genuinely like to get one and my schedule doesn't permit; (2) it's analogous to having a child; and (3) it's more of a sympathetic goal than saying I want to take time off to play Fire Emblem.

Are you guys seriously not seeing the difference between "I need time and money to care for a helpless child that we as a nation have a vested interest in seeing brought up so that they can contribute to society" and "I just wanna go smoke some weed on the beach brah, pay me for it"

Nothing says that child has to exist. Sure, we have a vested interest in seeing an existing child brought up correctly. But the child in question doesn't have to be born if the parents make an informed choice not to have a baby because they can't financially support it.
 

Loofy

Member
My post is more about your suggestion of mandated paid leave versus maternity/paternity leave. That intially sounds like a great option to me, although I've not read studies on how it affects a business, employee earnings, etc.

I just think if we're viewing the act of having a baby as something that is selfish and primarily benefits the parents, then, at least emotionally, I resent it as something to take time off of work for. Meanwhile, I'm stuck at my shitty job (posting on GAF now!), and I don't get time off for equally selfish goals.

I merely used taking care of a dog as an example because (1) I'd genuinely like to get one and my schedule doesn't permit; (2) it's analogous to having a child; and (3) it's more of a sympathetic goal than saying I want to take time off to play Fire Emblem.



Nothing says that child has to exist. Sure, we have a vested interest in seeing an existing child brought up correctly. But the child in question doesn't have to be born if the parents make an informed choice not to have a baby because they can't financially support it.
Children are our future, not dogs.
Same reason you get child/family tax benefits etc.

Sure you can say its discrimination, the same way you can say medical benefits discriminate against able bodied people.
 

Mumei

Member
Freezie KO: Yes, I only meant to say to avoid the stuff about "Dogs are better than kids!"; I wasn't talking about the broader point. I don't agree that parents shouldn't have some benefits relating to childcare that are unavailable to non-parents, but I'm not saying you can't talk about it.
 
Sure you can say its discrimination, the same way you can say medical benefits discriminate against able bodied people.

Having a child is a choice.

Mumei said:
Freezie KO: Yes, I only meant to say to avoid the stuff about "Dogs are better than kids!"; I wasn't talking about the broader point. I don't agree that parents shouldn't have some benefits relating to childcare that are unavailable to non-parents, but I'm not saying you can't talk about it.

I was being half-facetious with the dogs are cuter than babies line. Just trying to keep things light-hearted.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Technically the family leave act (guaranteed non-paid leave of absence from work) is for anything family related like taking care of a sick parent.

But yeah, this article is right on the money from my personal experience. We need laws that focus on work/life balance, and paid maternity leave.
 

AAK

Member
So I guess the gist of the article is that Woman lose a lot of money and career opportunities because they want to raise their children?

As long as it's the choice the family made then I don't see what's wrong with it. Let them make the choices they want. It is a tough choice, but making sure your child's upbringing is as smooth and as productive as possible is of paramount importance too (whether it be from the dad or mom).
 

Loofy

Member
Having a child is a choice.
And the people and the government has chosen to support them.
Not sure what youre trying to say here. Should people only have kids if they are willing to fall behind on work, hey thats their choice. Or perhaps only if theyre rich enough to pull a beyonce and hire a surrogate and have a nanny take care of the kid?
 

etiolate

Banned
SOME people began to argue that feminism was not about furthering the equal involvement of men and women at home and work but simply about giving women the right to choose between pursuing a career and devoting themselves to full-time motherhood. A new emphasis on intensive mothering and attachment parenting helped justify the latter choice.

Other feminists worried that the equation of feminism with an individual woman’s choice to opt out of the work force undermined the movement’s commitment to a larger vision of gender equity and justice. Joan Williams, the founding director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California’s Hastings College of the Law, argued that defining feminism as giving mothers the choice to stay home assumes that their partners have the responsibility to support them, and thus denies choice to fathers. The political theorist Lori Marso noted that emphasizing personal choice ignores the millions of women without a partner who can support them.


I was surprised to learn that my mother had a sentiment that men should always work in any relationship situation and that a man who is not working was essentially not a man. I always viewed her as non-traditional within the viewpoint of the time she grew up in.

After this, I began to become aware of the fact that the choice between domestic and workforce was mostly something that belonged to women in America. There wasn't so much an equalizing of gender roles within the family as an option given to women that didn't seem socially accepted as an option for males to have.
 

Cyan

Banned
So I guess the gist of the article is that Woman lose a lot of money and career opportunities because they want to raise their children?

As long as it's the choice the family made then I don't see what's wrong with it. Let them make the choices they want. It is a tough choice, but making sure your child's upbringing is as smooth and as productive as possible is of paramount importance too (whether it be from the dad or mom).

No, the gist is that it's not a choice, it's pushed on them due to structural issues. (staying home, I mean; obviously having children is generally a choice)
 

kirblar

Member
And the people and the government has chosen to support them.
Not sure what youre trying to say here. Should people only have kids if they are willing to fall behind on work, hey thats their choice. Or perhaps only if theyre rich enough to pull a beyonce and hire a surrogate and have a nanny take care of the kid?
People who tell you "You can have it all!"? They're liars. Life is a series of decisions with very real opportunity costs and trade-offs. Having money has advantages. That's not something any amount of legislation will ever be able to "correct."
 

Petrie

Banned
And the people and the government has chosen to support them.
Not sure what youre trying to say here. Should people only have kids if they are willing to fall behind on work, hey thats their choice. Or perhaps only if theyre rich enough to pull a beyonce and hire a surrogate and have a nanny take care of the kid?

Doesn't mean we have to keep choosing to do so.
 

AAK

Member
No, the gist is that it's not a choice, it's pushed on them due to structural issues. (staying home, I mean; obviously having children is generally a choice)

They don't have a choice? What's preventing them from choosing to work or stay home?
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Doesn't mean we have to keep choosing to do so.

The US is already bottom tier for this. If we didn't have immigration there is no way we would be able to support anyone for social security or medicare or any other social program for the elderly.
 

Zhengi

Member
I kind of have to wonder if there are any benefits to going back to the old structure of having the father work and the mother at home caring for the kids. I imagine one of the main reasons for going back to these roles, besides economic reasons, is that the parents want the mother to be able to better care for their children. With at least one parent actively in the lives of the kids, wouldn't this help them perform better in school and later on in life?
 
I read the article, but I want to chime in later. It's very interesting and, accordingly, there's a lot to process. I just want to make sure this stays on Page 1 to boot.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Doesn't mean we have to keep choosing to do so.

Well yes, it does.

Are you in favour of ending public schooling?

Because far more than anything else being discussed, public schooling is a massive, unbelievable wealth transfer from the rich and non-parents to the parents, and particularly poor parents. This kind of stuff -- guaranteed parental leave -- is peanuts compared to public schooling.
 

bill0527

Member
I was surprised to learn that my mother had a sentiment that men should always work in any relationship situation and that a man who is not working was essentially not a man. I always viewed her as non-traditional within the viewpoint of the time she grew up in.

After this, I began to become aware of the fact that the choice between domestic and workforce was mostly something that belonged to women in America. There wasn't so much an equalizing of gender roles within the family as an option given to women that didn't seem socially accepted as an option for males to have.

I've been a stay-at-home dad for 8 years and a lot of people have the same view as your mother. I've got a 16 year old from a previous marriage, 8 year old, and a 3 year old.

I have become socially awkward over the last decade because of it. I hate meeting new people because i know that more than likely, I'm going to judged that way. Every so often I'll run into the occasional Neanderthal who thinks being a stay at home dad means I sit on my ass and play video games all day. Far from it. Had more time for gaming when I had a full time job.

Btw, I'm a stay-at-home dad out of necessity, not by choice. My wife is a doctor and makes about 4 times as much money as I did when I left the workplace. We don't have a village to help us raise our kids. No grandparents, aunts, or uncles around that can help pick up and drop off kids where they need to go, help take care of them when they are sick, or watch them in the summers when they are out of school. Its all on me.

Its not easy. I do everything. Run kids everywhere, have a 4000 sq. foot house to take care of, yard mowing, landscaping, all cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, doctor and dentist appointment running, getting kids on the bus, having to always run one of our 2 dogs and 1 cat to the vet, take care of all vehicle maintenance, i mean this is just the tip of the iceberg. Very few days where I can get an afternoon and not have anything to do. I posted this long list in a similar thread of what I do on a daily basis, and some guy here posted that it was bullshit because the stuff I do is done in every single household, but he failed to realize is that very seldom does all of this stuff completely fall on one person in the household. These kinds of duties are usually split and not fall all on one person.

Its a thankless job, but I don't want to complain too much. I have a good life. Its just very socially isolating, and hard on the male ego. We aren't hard-wired to do this kind of work.
 

genjiZERO

Member
I kind of have to wonder if there are any benefits to going back to the old structure of having the father work and the mother at home caring for the kids. I imagine one of the main reasons for going back to these roles, besides economic reasons, is that the parents want the mother to be able to better care for their children. With at least one parent actively in the lives of the kids, wouldn't this help them perform better in school and later on in life?

In my experience, people who had one parent at home and one working were better achievers academically, financially, and have had better adjusted lives. I understand the need for two working parents - the cost of living has far outpaced rises in incomes, but a lot of the time I get the feeling that it's not cost of living based but personal career based. I personally, think that if you have children you have a moral duty to raise those children as efficiently and healthily as possible. I've always felt sacrificing your children for a career is painfully selfish. This is not to say it should necessarily be women who give up their careers, but if financially possible someone does.
 
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