Earthstrike
Member
Good. About fucking time non-progressive taxation had some pushback.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Obama Will Seek to Raise Taxes on Wealthy to Finance Cuts for Middle Class
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
- Status
I don't think I can actually get behind the idea of tax cuts for the middle class. The American middle class is one of the wealthiest groups of people in the world. Why not instead raise taxes on the wealthy and the middle class in order to lower taxes/help out the poor?
Of course I also think that taxing both corporations and capital gains/dividends is silly and that corporate taxes should be eliminated, so obviously I'm a pretty shitty socialist. The corporate tax is a pretty ineffective tax anyway.
Of course I also think that taxing both corporations and capital gains/dividends is silly and that corporate taxes should be eliminated, so obviously I'm a pretty shitty socialist. The corporate tax is a pretty ineffective tax anyway.
They can't do anything. Every Republican in Congress signs Grover Norquist's pledge that they will NEVER EVER raise taxes under any circumstances. No matter how much our infrastructure crumbles or a natural disaster wipes out entire states, or we need to spend trillions funding wars, Republicans will never vote for more tax revenue.
And Obama knows it. He's pandering with empty promises.
GameGuru59
Banned
This man gets it.The tax system is structured in such a way that the income that you need to survive as a human being is taxed disproportionately high (income taxes stacked on sales taxes). The marginal utility of the money in the higher tax brackets is smaller because you already have your basic needs taken care of (food, shelter, childcare, etc) with plenty left over. As a result, the wealthy typically end up investing that money rather than spending it.
Losing $5k with a $35k income is going to hurt more than losing $120k when you're making $420k. They're taking the ramen right out of people's mouths. If the idea is to stimulate the economy through an increase in consumer spending then that money needs to go to the middle class. But the real boot on the throat of middle class America is student debt.
A laughable assertion. A Republican would not have proposed a healthcare bill of any kind, and probably would have tried to attack Social Security, or something.
There was the ACA, a lot of blood sweat in tears went into it and Republicans have been fighting it with everything they have to this very day.
It's not a promise, he's suggesting it as an idea.
How about both. Personally I'd like to see less military spending, higher taxes on the rich, and no fucking tax cuts for anyone.
GameGuru59
Banned
There is no need to raise taxes without offsets (raising taxes on one demo, and lowering them for another). The deficit is going down, and is one-again within sustainable levels (we actually want to have a deficit to a certain extent). What is increasing is income inequality- which is what this policy is meant to deal with,
titiklabingapat
Member
This is the worse idea ever.
A flat tax looks good on paper but it's nothing but a regressive tax structure. Not every dollar is worth the same to everyone else.
Earthstrike
Member
A flat tax actually looks horrible on paper. I'm not sure why we'd even give it that much credit.
TekGryphon
Banned
The tax system is structured in such a way that the income that you need to survive as a human being is taxed disproportionately high (income taxes stacked on sales taxes). The marginal utility of the money in the higher tax brackets is smaller because you already have your basic needs taken care of (food, shelter, childcare, etc) with plenty left over. As a result, the wealthy typically end up investing that money rather than spending it.
Losing $5k with a $35k income is going to hurt more than losing $120k when you're making $420k. They're taking the ramen right out of people's mouths. If the idea is to stimulate the economy through an increase in consumer spending then that money needs to go to the middle class. But the real boot on the throat of middle class America is student debt.
Agreed. Unless and until we make some significant improvements to our healthcare, infrastructure, and education system, there should be no taxable income under 50k for an individual or an additional 15k for each dependent after that.
Meanwhile, the amount of tax breaks at the top is utterly ridiculous. No one making $400k+ is paying a 40% income tax rate. Their ETR is frequently in the twenties, and some people get down into the single digits.
Get rid of the loopholes and add additional brackets. 50% on everything over 500k, 75% on everything over $1,000,000, and 90% on everything over $1,500,000
Cow Mengde
Banned
Nothing more than lip service.
yeah my premiums increase pretty much ate up my annual raise. Sick of how expensive healthcare is.
Anyways, thanks Obama, for bringing us all these great ideas when the party of lunatics has control of both houses of congress.
Maybe it will get the casuals to actually care about voting.
Is there a list that specifically states what loopholes are used to get their rates down that low?
Which makes the Democratic majority in the first two hears even more disheartening.
But I agree, he's stealthily campaigning for Hillary in advance.
If, during the State of the Union, Obama was offering proposals that were geared towards Republican priorities, the same people bitching here now about how what he's saying now doesn't matter at all would be saying that he's preemptively ceding the debate to Republicans, and how "Obama doesn't know how to negotiate! You start with a position farther from where you need to be!". Most of the responses here get a hearty laugh from me.
The exception of course is for the right-wing partisans trying to dance around why these proposals that are in no way radical must be ignored, because the President is a lame duck (he isn't really, but it's a fun thing for idiots to say). And yet the President has already done more consequential governing in the last two months than both Republican houses of Congress will accomplish in the next two years. Enjoy being trounced in 2016. You're surely going to feel great when the only thing you accomplished after winning Congress was that Republicans delayed the extremely rich from being taxed a little bit more.
The exception of course is for the right-wing partisans trying to dance around why these proposals that are in no way radical must be ignored, because the President is a lame duck (he isn't really, but it's a fun thing for idiots to say). And yet the President has already done more consequential governing in the last two months than both Republican houses of Congress will accomplish in the next two years. Enjoy being trounced in 2016. You're surely going to feel great when the only thing you accomplished after winning Congress was that Republicans delayed the extremely rich from being taxed a little bit more.
TekGryphon
Banned
Democrats attempted tax reforms numerous times. They lacked the filibuster proof majority to prevent Republicans from stonewalling progress, even when 75%+ of Americans agree that the mega-rich are contributing entirely too little to the country.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Bill that was passed was more or less what repubs wanted in first place, though they argued for sure
If he really gave a crap he would have forced reid to pull the nuclear option, but they wimped out and got nothing done
No excuses
The days of single income families are pretty much over. I'm all for this.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
This is the lowest tax rate in like the last 60 years for wealthy Americans. It was never going to be sustainable.
The middle class is shrinking, which is disastrous for our style of capitalism and democracy since a strong middle class is a powerful economic engine and an attainable aspiration for the poor.
The simplest example of its success is the model t ford, a car that the people making it could actually afford. That was a virtuous middle class cycle.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Of course all of those extra fees being levied on banks will just be passed down to customers in the form of more fees.
His party never had complete control of the government and the fact you'd assert this means you're better off reading this thread than "contributing" to it. Not being mean. Not insulting you. Just read about Republican obstructionism and learn something.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
Define "complete". The dude had 2 years of Democratic majority. What more do you want?
Not insulting you, but you seem insatiable.
There was never a true filibuster-proof super majority in the Senate. That would have been "complete control of the government". Republicans like to perpetuate the meme that the Democrats had a super majority but that ignores those pesky 'facts' that Republicans are allergic to.
Karsticles
Member
Romney did, though.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
What? How else do you think the economy works? We live in a consumerism-driven economy and it is very much helped when people go out and spend their money on goods and services. The alternative is the wealth staying at the top in bank accounts and various other areas, stagnating and eating any growth the economy may feel (which is already what's been happening recently).
The tax system is structured in such a way that the income that you need to survive as a human being is taxed disproportionately high (income taxes stacked on sales taxes). The marginal utility of the money in the higher tax brackets is smaller because you already have your basic needs taken care of (food, shelter, childcare, etc) with plenty left over. As a result, the wealthy typically end up investing that money rather than spending it.
Losing $5k with a $35k income is going to hurt more than losing $120k when you're making $420k. They're taking the ramen right out of people's mouths. If the idea is to stimulate the economy through an increase in consumer spending then that money needs to go to the middle class. But the real boot on the throat of middle class America is student debt.
Exactly. Many people, adults even surprisingly, don't understand this.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
Jesus Christ demon. Has anyone outside of FDR had that kind of majority? I'm no history buff but I'm guessing he did.
Sweet Jesus mother of God that is insane.
You Americans can keep your cheap gas, I'll take free healthcare thanks.
IndoAssassin
Banned
Republicans are just gonna undo everything after the next election.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Problem is the way people earn money is lop sided to be "trickle up" economics.
Yes, Obama. According to almost every Republican idiot I hear.
gutter_trash
Banned
too little, too late
Obama had his chance to enact change in the first two years of his mandate when Dems held majority of the house.
now it's just blablablablalbalbalba
Obama had his chance to enact change in the first two years of his mandate when Dems held majority of the house.
now it's just blablablablalbalbalba
It feels like half my damned paycheck goes on taxes and all I can do with what I have left over is live in a 1 bed/1 bath apartment with a 22k car payment and a 5k motorcycle payment (I supposedly make 60k a year but only bring in 38kish). Sir Barack Hussein Obama do the middle class right and piss off these congressmen!!!
Promise, idea, whatever. It's still nothing but pandering. There is 0% chance of any Republican voting for more tax revenue. Grover Norquist saw to it. He has Congress by the balls.
FrenchToastDisciple
Member
For all those poo pooing this as "it's never going to get done, what's the point," well, that's what people said about what was considered the far right's economic policies in the 60s and 70s, and, guess what? Those insane right wing policies now define the debate on the economy in America.
No, Obama isn't going to get any legislation through these last couple of years, but what he's finally realized after 6 years of being president is that you don't get progressive political change by placating the right and talking to them like they aren't the right wing, corporatist fools that they are. You get progressive political change by redefining the debate and pushing a coherent vision for the country that is completely at odds with the right wing status quo and gives people an actual alternative to the Republicans that isn't "well, these guys aren't as insane."
Now, Obama isn't really a lefy, more a pragmatic centrist obviously appalled at the extent to which the right wing has shifted the terms of political debate. At this point his "legacy" will be judged by how he's able to set the ground for a left of center (at least on domestic issues) resurgence in this country after he's gone. This endless string of pragmatic, good ideas he's proposing allows him to do that. Obama has never really seemed to have understood how to manipulate the political climate of America, but he finally seems to be learning, and hopefully his actions can shift the terms of debate in the 2016 elections a little toward the left.
No, Obama isn't going to get any legislation through these last couple of years, but what he's finally realized after 6 years of being president is that you don't get progressive political change by placating the right and talking to them like they aren't the right wing, corporatist fools that they are. You get progressive political change by redefining the debate and pushing a coherent vision for the country that is completely at odds with the right wing status quo and gives people an actual alternative to the Republicans that isn't "well, these guys aren't as insane."
Now, Obama isn't really a lefy, more a pragmatic centrist obviously appalled at the extent to which the right wing has shifted the terms of political debate. At this point his "legacy" will be judged by how he's able to set the ground for a left of center (at least on domestic issues) resurgence in this country after he's gone. This endless string of pragmatic, good ideas he's proposing allows him to do that. Obama has never really seemed to have understood how to manipulate the political climate of America, but he finally seems to be learning, and hopefully his actions can shift the terms of debate in the 2016 elections a little toward the left.
Link
The Autumn Wind
So he should just sit back quietly while the lunatics run the asylum?
He never had complete control of the government. That's functionally not possible. When he had majorities (not fillibuster-proof super majorities, mind you) he was walking on eggshells to get the ACA passed. He was also making language to regulate banks, which is generally unpopular in modern Congress. Stimulus package, the auto industry bail out. A lot of money being thrown around to fix the economy. Obama went through his political currency like a lotto winner (and I don't necessarily fault him for that considering the situation at the time).
It's like now that the ACA is the law of the land, people want to criticize him for not doing more. Which is fine, but it pays to remember just how razor thin the margin was to get the ACA on the books, and how razor thin the margin was to keep it on the books, and how the ACA faces threats to its existence to this day.
For a few years longer we do.
Robot Pants
Member
- Status