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Obsidian hires Tim Cain (Fallout / Arcanum / Troika)
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FrontalMonk
Banned
I noticed a bunch of people seem to have thought I was talking about the Obsidian cycle when I said Tim Cain would release a buggy joyful mess.
oh, no.
I was talking about pretty much Troika's entire catalog, and the reason Troika folded in the first place. Arcanum, VtM:Bloodlines, ToEE, these are all great games, but are buggy messes that I've no doubt Cain will continue to produce.
now that I've said my piece, feel free to keep misinterpreting me, the clueless junior. D:
oh, no.
I was talking about pretty much Troika's entire catalog, and the reason Troika folded in the first place. Arcanum, VtM:Bloodlines, ToEE, these are all great games, but are buggy messes that I've no doubt Cain will continue to produce.
now that I've said my piece, feel free to keep misinterpreting me, the clueless junior. D:
Anasui Kishibe said:
Great objective analysis "Check the OT"
How about I do it for you, and save you the analytical effort.
Xenoblade has an interesting combat system that is an interesting hybrid of hotkey based MMO's and JRPG's. The use of stacking status effects to create a 'combo like' effect is intriguing but becomes repetitive much like any other branchless combo system in a JRPG ever does; 1-2-3 isn't dynamic in any way, shape, or form. While it's innovative from a japanese design standpoint, nothing in the game allows for the same strategic depth and character development that a game like Rift or WoW gives you in combat scenarios.
From a story aspect Xenoblade is rote juvenile garbage that confuses stereotypical resolution of traumatic situations with real emotional development. The best aspects are actually a few of the side quests (Nice touch with the relationship building choice matters systems) and the side dialogues between party characters.
From an exploration standpoint it is lovely for the platform it's on, but the scale is actually really small compared to other RPG games and even on an emulator the graphics aren't particularly state of the art. In all seriousness the hype for this game seems to come mostly from people that refuse to play MMO's based on some principle; I can't see how someone could honestly love Xenoblade for it's exploration and massive world and not consider Rift one of their favorite games.
On the other hand, you have Fallout: New Vegas. Equally deriviative combat system with a bit less in the way of innovation but a bit more immersion by taking out the disconnecting hotkey mmo style gameplay. Visceral matters when you want an immersive game; there's a reason the first person Fallouts sell so well.
Where New Vegas really surpasses Xenoblade (And really most other RPG's) is the narrative. While the main plot has some holes and a couple tired cliches (NCR and Caesar's aren't stretching the creativity) they really mastered the vignette style of side quest exposition; Many of the Vault's and companion character story lines are detailed, immmersive, and feel like fully realized professional stories that play on the atmosphere of the game while retaining sight of the human condition. This is what writing is supposed to be, and if you value the story in a role-playing game yet don't enjoy New Vegas then you need to reevaluate what you consider to be good writing.
Exploration wise New Vegas feels natural and alive; regions change depending on your actions and react to your own reputation. There are actual quests to find with fully fleshed out stories just from wandering around and also random notes/details about the world/individuals to be discovered.
There's no world where Xenoblade is a better -objective- game than New Vegas. You may -enjoy- it more, but if you posess any analytical skills there's no way you could make that statment objectively.
Discotheque
Banned
you can have a very polished but hollow and boring ass game like Mass Effect 2
or you can have a buggy (not that buggy though) rpg with actual depth and entertaining writing. - Obsidian
or you can have a very buggy rpg with even more depth and even better writing but you should probably wait on some fixes - Troika (well..not anymore)
The bugs in New Vegas and Alpha Protocol were overrated, Bethesda's been as bad and sometimes worse and yet people slobber over their games.
And Bioware well...you can polish a turd but...
or you can have a buggy (not that buggy though) rpg with actual depth and entertaining writing. - Obsidian
or you can have a very buggy rpg with even more depth and even better writing but you should probably wait on some fixes - Troika (well..not anymore)
The bugs in New Vegas and Alpha Protocol were overrated, Bethesda's been as bad and sometimes worse and yet people slobber over their games.
And Bioware well...you can polish a turd but...
Alpha-Bromega
Member
codhand said:
it's really really hard to explain in anything less than a semi analysis and a history lesson, but the design of quests, the world and the role playing was worlds ahead of Bethesda's capabilities.
Basically, play Fallout 1 or 2, then play 3. Then play New Vegas. that is the answer as to what Obsidian did
Discotheque said:
I totally prefer the Obsidian route. I started playing Mass Effect 2 last week and only played for a couple of hours before quitting. The characters and story were just so goddamn boring. lol I actually had to force myself to pay attention to what they were saying in the event that it would eventually be worth listening to.
afternoon delight
Member
If they allow them to handle Fallout 4 I will believe in god.
Discotheque said:
I agree with the general sentiment, but Mass Effect 2 is a waaaaaaaay better action RPG than Dungeon Siege 3. It might be shallow fun and low on RPG elements, but I had a blast with ME2. I played the DS3 demo and thinking about how Obsidian wasted their time and effort on it just made me want to crawl up and die.
I think Bioware is pretty good at making mainstream blockbuster games with no depth but a lot of gung-ho fun. Obsidian doesn't seem to be able to do the same because their actual action mechanics are kinda shitty due to their lack of experience in the area. So they're much better suited to making dialogue driven RPGs which rely on stats, character builds, and solid writing.
As for Troika, well, as much as I think the ideas and concepts were really unique and interesting, the games were botherline unplayable due to technical issues. Literally.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
afternoon delight said:
honest to god me too
afternoon delight
Member
The bug complaint would bother me, but I'm too busy enjoying the best RPG this generation, thanks. Go get a PC and some mods.
Alpha-Bromega said:
Agree with everything there except "the world". The Capital Wasteland was far more enjoyable to me than the Mojave.
I would not be opposed to Bethesda desiging the setting and environments of F4, and handing over the quest and npc design to Obsidian. In fact, thats what I would want to happen.
As it is, Bethesda will be doing F4 and I'm more than happy with that.
Vustadumas
Banned
Good for Tim! Not so sure it's good for Obsidian, lol.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
codhand said:
idk, i think just saying they have 'great writing' is really underwhelming and almost, idk, not disrespectful, but not indicative.
writing to me means really nothing in video games without proper design context, i hate hate hate cutscenes and such. What i think Obsidian excels at is perfectly melding writing and design so as to not be possible in other mediums; Could any of the writers be novelists? maybe, Avellone dips into comic books. but their mastery is in showing the writing, the characters in the context of really clever design and quests.
I think a decent example is the overall arc of Honest Hearts. Finding firsthand the Survivalist's memoirs, and eventually himself, wouldn't be as powerful in just 'writing'
@spirity i don't mean the world as in the layout, although you must admit the logical of the Mojave was much more realistic if not a bit less satisfying than the Capital Wasteland (which i can agree on). I mean the overall lore that was added into New Vegas.
But keep in mind; Exploration is literally Bethesdas speciality, it's their bread and butter, this was Obsidians first time ever doing something that big.
Bomber Bob
Banned
But what about Brian Fango?
Alpha-Bromega said:
Well, I think this varies depending on the lead, and the objectives of the project. Honest Hearts is not a scenario which I felt was a great showcase of writing. Environmental design and peripheral backstory waiting to be discovered? Absolutely. But the actual writing and dialogue in the DLC wasn't amazing.
On the other hand, Dead Money is a great example of how strong Avellone's RPG writing is. The characters are all unique and loaded with dialogue, there are tons of rewards for being able to communicate well with your companions, entire scenes and gameplay mechanics are carried entirely by the writing and dialogue alone.
So yeah, it's a mix of styles depending on the project. In some cases, it is absolutely the writing.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
duckroll said:
yeah i agree the plot itself isn't stellar, but what is there (The Burned Man's arc) tied into the environment, which itself tells a story and is a character in its own right, is quite good. Both alone wouldn't mean that much, and that's what I think Obsidian can do well at is just tying the two together.
I can't say anything about DM because HH was the only DLC i've played :'(
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
An experiment: go to the modern day Mojave desert and the modern day U.S. Capital.spirity said:
Report back with which is more interesting
Alpha-Bromega
Member
morningbus said:
i agree with him in terms of layout, but like I said, Bethesda just happens to be masters of exploration.
Anasui Kishibe
Banned
erragal said:
you talk about objectivity, yet this post reeks of personal preferences amd boils down to "NV has better writing than Xenoblade". It could, objectively. But it's still a flawed game, far from the godsend people too amazed by the supposed awesomeness of its writing seem to ignore, and the same thing happens in every Obsidian game.
The Faction system? Utterly confused and ultimately useless. I help someone and I've already failed a quest from someone else I haven't even met yet. What?
The music? Some say they love Mr New Vegas, I thought it was perhaps fitting to the setting, but dull. Give me Three Dogs any day, and Danny Kaye performing "Civilization". Let's not even talk about X soundtrack
The quests? Go there, kill that, come back. But narrated in a very professional way
Where you see "exploration so natural and alive" I see boredom caused by a barren, ugly wasteland with a really small number of interesting points. I understand the Mojave is a desert and all, but it's also a videogame in which I have to feel entertained. I was, for a bit, but didn't last long because of the really awful scenery. Xenoblade has variety in spades, with much scenograpohic and artistic gusto, something that makes the player want to see what's behind the corner, and explore everything about it. Different games, settings and genres but I wasn't the one who brought the game in this topic.
Discotheque
Banned
spirity said:
this is confirmed?! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.........I don't know if I can go back to that after playing New Vegas. They should just work on a skyrim expansion instead.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
Truant said:
hey man did you hear the news? TIM CAIN JOINED OBSIDIAN
Discotheque
Banned
spirity said:
I swear if New Vegas was the one to come out first everybody would be changing their tune here.
I think it's just the whole "new fallout game" feeling that people are looking back on.
spirity said:
Actually, it is confirmed. Bethesda owns the IP, and they control the IP. The future of Fallout, and what is canon, rests with Bethesda and no one else. As such, it would make no sense that any other developer would develop the future numbered entries of Fallout.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Alpha-Bromega said:
I agree too. I think The Capital Wasteland is a far, far more interesting place. But that isn't entirely because of Bethesda.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
to add to the discussion; What elements of Black Isle/Troika era RPG designs do you think will be best with Obsidians design philosophy? What parts of Fallout, Arcanum or VPM that absolutely need to be ingrained with Obsidians next games?
ii Stryker
Banned
YAY! Now get to work on Alpha Protocol 2!!
theDeeDubs
Member
I'm loving this news. Now give us some info on upcoming releases. I need more games, Obsidian.
As far as bugs, I've played countless hours of AP and NV and hardly had any in the former and less than FO3 in the latter. I actually had a few bad bugs in Dungeon Siege 3 though. I couldn't get the achievements for beating the game as a certain character while playing co-op so I had to beat it four times to get 100%. I also hit a really bad clipping bug on two of the playthroughs on the same boss towards the end of the game.
As far as bugs, I've played countless hours of AP and NV and hardly had any in the former and less than FO3 in the latter. I actually had a few bad bugs in Dungeon Siege 3 though. I couldn't get the achievements for beating the game as a certain character while playing co-op so I had to beat it four times to get 100%. I also hit a really bad clipping bug on two of the playthroughs on the same boss towards the end of the game.
FrontalMonk
Banned
This. I'm currently on Book 6 in a Reread and was musing to myself that a well executed game in the WoT universe would be beyond awesome.clashfan said:
Discotheque said:
Going through the metro's was a joy to me. Dark, scary, gripping and thoroughly enjoyable. A lot of things in F3 just clicked for me.
To give it some sort of context, quest design and story is a lower priority for me than exploration and discovery. If NV had came out first I would -still- prefer F3.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Dialogue, story, rpg gameplay that goes beyond combat. i was going to say that this group isnt exactly known for making great combat but, then again, BI did make the Icewind Dale games.Alpha-Bromega said:
Alpha-Bromega
Member
spirity said:
i'm a huge NV fan and i totally see you eye to eye here, at that point it really is just preference. a balance of both is perfect to me
FrontalMonk
Banned
Agreed. Troika was all about talking your way out of conflict.water_wendi said:
Forsaken82
Member
It is kind of amazing how people only talk about Obsidian games as being buggy, yet a lot of this team has a background at Black Isle and Troika and i recall several people mention multiple game breaking bugs in games like Planescape:Torment and Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, yet everyone praises those games and hates on anything Obsidian puts out. (i am in the camp that praises these games by the way)
I love obsidian titles (although I have yet to play Alpha Protocol and DS3) and I really don't understand the hate on one side and the love on the other. Underneath all these bugs are fantastic games and experiences and I have personally never encountered the game breaking bugs in any of those games.
I love obsidian titles (although I have yet to play Alpha Protocol and DS3) and I really don't understand the hate on one side and the love on the other. Underneath all these bugs are fantastic games and experiences and I have personally never encountered the game breaking bugs in any of those games.