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Official Football Thread 2007/2008 (Soccer)

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Larsen B said:
One problem with English players is that someone like Glen Johnson can be considered "top English talent".

Arsenal also have one of the highest quotients of English players in their youth academy and have molded a number of England players (Upson, Pennant, Bentley). I'm not necessarily saying any of those are truly great, but if the Ferdinand brothers are eligible for England caps, why not them?
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Well, you've picked on Johnson, but he's the only one there who isn't a top talent, I perhaps should have left him out.

Upson, Pennant and Bentley are all well and good, but I'm talking about players you can actually bring through to your first team.
 
it's difficult to tell where scouting starts and the youth system ends though.

In the case of London teams they are only allowed to sign youth players if they are within one hour of the club. It means that you can only get young players within a small square mileage. West Ham are a special case because their big tradition in developing talent, but trust me - the other London sides are catching up or already have caught up.

Basically there is no choice but to scout players once they are allowed to move. But regardless I would consider a player that joins at the age of 16 a product of the Arsenal academy. (in Arsenal's case there are a few current players that came through the ranks btw. the 2 Hoyte's, Randall, Simpson, Lansbury, Watt, Ayling, Eastmond, Gilbert and Gibbs all came through the academy from young age I believe. That's 10 of their reserve team)

You can't fault the clubs for not investing money in their youth systems, look at Arsenal's academy for instance - it is state of the art. Maybe it's a bit too easy for young players actually, what more can you honestly do for them? In the end it has to be down to them to make it.

Let's look at Bentley for instance - I have no doubt that he would have got his chance at Arsenal. He would not be a regular yet, but trust me - he'd get his 25 starts across all competitions. He chose not to fight for his place and that's fair enough.

In his case it will work out for the best I think, in others it doesn't. They end up in the Championship never to be heard about anymore. If you want to make it in Football you have to show some fighting spirit too - and maybe it's easier for the foreigners, because they don't have it as easy. they have to prove themselves in a different country without their parents holding their hands if somebody said something mean to them in training.

We can't blame everything on the system, it's also down to the players to show what they can do.
 
Mama, I agree with you that each club having it's own state of the art youth system would be great for the country and the league, but I think that clubs can't help but see it as a huge investment without a definite rate of return.

You can put all the money you want into youth, but if they don't produce at the end of the day, you lose money. Buying already proven players may be expensive, but it's also alot easier. You buy a world class player like Torres for 26 million pounds or whatever he went for, and you are guaranteed a Fernando Torres. You may pump out a few quality players here and there, but like I said, there are many factors you'd have to consider and tackle when it comes to youth production. I tihnk that's the reason that most clubs don't take the youth system approach, it's too much of a risk and too time consuming.
 
Clubs don't have an obligation to create players for the future though, do they?

All this talk of foreign players ruining the English game is nice tabloid fodder, but the old First Division probably contained around 90% English players, and how many international competitions did England win?

It's a discussion that will go in circles for a long, long time and will only be resolved when English players are good enough to win a competition. I don't understand how the conclusion as to why England don't win things is never because they aren't good enough.
 
Zavagnin replaced Mastroeni on the US roster. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Zavagnin Replaces Mastroeni

Bradley Names 19-Man Roster to Face No. 1 Ranked Brazil on Sept. 9 in Chicago
CHICAGO (Sept. 5, 2007) -- U.S. head coach Bob Bradley has called in Kansas City Wizards midfielder Kerry Zavagnin, who will arrive in Chicago in time for the USA's training session Wednesday morning. Zavagnin replaces Pablo Mastroeni, who is still recovering from an illness that forced him out at halftime of the Rapids 1-1 draw at Columbus this past Sunday.

Zavagnin has made 21 appearances for the United States, having played in six matches during the 2006 World Cup qualifying campaign. An alternate for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, the 33-year-old last played for the U.S. in the 4-1 loss to Germany on March 22, 2006 in Dortmund.
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It's embarrassing to me that Zavagnin has 21 caps.
 
By the way, has anyone else seen the Henry-Tiger Woods-Roger Federer Gillette ads that are playing right now for the US Open? Weird to see Henry back in an Arsenal jersey.

173fs680854.jpg
 
An article about how the players on developmental contracts in MLS don't get much money at all.
A developmental contract offered to a player by any MLS team is relatively straightforward. The contract, in part, holds that the player will be paid at the "rate of $1,075 per month gross of taxes" from March 1 to Dec. 31. In addition, the contract spells out incentives that can be earned as follows:

1. MLS team 75 percent start: $5,000 if you start in 75 percent or more of the MLS league season games (including MLS regular-season and playoff games but not including the U.S. Open Cup or other tournaments) of the MLS team to which you are assigned.

2. MLS All-Star: $5,000 if you are named to the official MLS All-Star team.

3. MLS Rookie of the Year: $5,000 if you are selected as the official MLS Rookie of the Year.

The team holds a one-year option on a player for a second year, compensation of which would be $33,000 for the season. That option can be extended for two seasons beyond that, meaning a player who signed with the league this past spring would be under contract through 2010 under the terms of the deal. Such a player would be entering his fourth year in the league and be making a little more than $38,000.
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Cornballer said:
By the way, has anyone else seen the Henry-Tiger Woods-Roger Federer Gillette ads that are playing right now for the US Open? Weird to see Henry back in an Arsenal jersey.

173fs680854.jpg
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Yeah I've seen it. Whenever it comes on my friends go "Hey, it's your boy HEN-REE!"
 
I really don't see how buying a player of 16 could ever possibly be considered comign through the youth system. I'm even wary of 15. Players have developed to an extremely high level by that age, the majority of the work has been done, it's just refinement from then on. And that's just as likely if you buy a 19 year old.

Is that rule of a mile radius true? That's fucking stupid, they can restrict it to English if they want but I see zero reason to make it that small. No wonder things are failing.
 
Larsen B said:
Clubs don't have an obligation to create players for the future though, do they?
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No, but it's not about the obligation, it's about doing the best for their club. And developing youth players is one of the ebst things a club can do, look at Barca. If they were to sell Messi now, how much would they get? That's pure profit.
 
it's something like 45 minutes or an hour drive to the club I think, the rule does exist.

The players I listed all joined before the age of 16 by the way, they all came through the academy. I think there might be one or two more that I'm forgetting. Half of the Arsenal reserves came through the ranks, and far more than half of the reserves are English.

edit: 17 out of 25 are English, around 12 of them academy players.
 
And that's great, but will they make the first team? Or will Wenger buy the best players of a similar age from around the world?

I think the ideal make up of a team would be 1/3 coming through the academy, 1/3 just bought when they were young and real talents (like 15+) and one third buying actual experience. Arsenal have the latter 2/3, if they could just get the first 1/3. Imagine an Arsenal side with a Messi, a dos Santos and a Pique in there...that'd be something.
 
well, any club would be happy for 2 or so players a year to make it from reserves to first team.

Obviously the rest won't - at Arsenal you have as good a chance as anywhere else to make it as a young player. Wenger said that the last few generations of English players were below par and that the generation now coming through is not - so there's every chance that we will see some players making it, and some of them will be English.

I have high hopes for Gibbs, I think he is a genuine contender. Gavin Hoyte, Lansbury, Ogogo and Sanchez Watt are apparently big talents too.

We'll see, but if only 2 or 3 could make it it would be great.
 
Mama Smurf said:
I really don't see how buying a player of 16 could ever possibly be considered comign through the youth system. I'm even wary of 15. Players have developed to an extremely high level by that age, the majority of the work has been done, it's just refinement from then on. And that's just as likely if you buy a 19 year old.

Is that rule of a mile radius true? That's fucking stupid, they can restrict it to English if they want but I see zero reason to make it that small. No wonder things are failing.
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Not a mile, an hour, it does make sense because they dont want over-zealous parents moving their whole lives on the slim hope of their 10 year old making it as a footballer.

There are plenty of clubs all round the country (outside the top flight) with good enough facilities to train players up till the age of 16 and i think thats the best way to go about it. There is a massive scouting system at that level anyway so i doubt much talent is slipping through the net there.

I dont think there's much talent slipping through the net anywhere to be honest. Though i do wish Arsenal would ship Walcott off on loan somewhere we can actually watch him play and see what he can do week in week out.

In general i see the problem as one of media perception, because there's no exposure of the young talent in England right now, like there was when Rooney stood out like a sore thumb infected with talent at Everton, or when Owen schooled Fowler at Liverpool (like Fowler schooled Rush). Thats why pieces of crap like Downing actually make it into the England squad.
 
But won't he be a better player if he becomes good enough to be an Arsenal first team regular than if he played every game for Luton Town?

(No offence Luton fans)
 
Somewhat related - there was a post today on Gunnerblog where he talks about how Chelsea only have 23 players (rather than 25) on their Champions League squad because of the new UEFA rules about having "locally trained players." It's a bit complicated, but worth taking a look at since we're discussing this. Also of interest, supposedly the players have to be there for two uninterrupted years, which might explain Wenger's reluctance to loan out some up-and-coming youngsters. Not sure how accurate the article is, but it's interesting stuff.
 
Players can train and train and train and get better to an extent. There of course Arsenal is the best place for him, but there's no substitute for a couple hundred league caps in terms of knowing how the game is really played and finding out how teams will try and stop you.

He wouldn't have to go down nearly as far as Luton, he would have been a fixture for any of the bottom third of the Premier League this season.
 
I suppose, as an Arsenal fan, I'd rather not have him aid any other Premiership clubs.

He has started playing games for Arsenal, though. And without Henry, his chances have increased so I don't think there'll be any detrimental effect on him.
 
Walcott will get his games this season. I'm sure he'll start about half of the Premiership games and he will start in the FA Cup and Carling Cup.

All in all I'd expect him to start around 25 to 30 games this season, which is quite a lot.
 
I really don't get the complaints about players who come up the ranks and then don't become a first team player at a club like Arsenal.... There is a really small pool of talent available to the club at that age and if none of them become good enough then you can't really question Wenger going and buying someone of a similar age who will actually help the team. It's not like a player of 18/19 is going to get 50 games and turn into a completely different player if you just give him a chance.... You have to prove yourself worthy of that chance and the fact it's not happening isn't down to a lack of trying on Arsenal's behalf atleast..... :-/
 
Well if you argue the English youth system is running well, the only conclusion can be that English players are just worst naturally than players from other countries. I don't believe that, we have the same biological make up, I guarantee if Barcelona only recruited English players for the next 10 years they'd create superstars of the future.

Who were the last superb players the top 4 brought through? Ashley Cole is 26, Terry is 26, Gerrard is 27, Carragher is 29, Owen is 27...I think I have to go to 32/33 for United with the likes of Beckham, Scholes, Giggs etc, Brown sure as hell doesn't count and he's 27 anyway.

Where are these others? The ones in between today's youth and those heading into (or past) their late 20s? There's Pennant, and Bentley, and Hoyte, and Fletcher...good players, but nowhere near the standard of the generation before.

I don't believe every top side was suddenly hit with a poor generation, not for a second. I believe so much money has flooded into the game that it's easier to buy the top 15+ year olds from around the world than it is to give the actual youth players who've gone through the club the regular first team experience they need to make it. I bet if it was the same situation 15 years ago we wouldn't have had Scholes, Giggs, Beckham and Neville coming through (plus a few others just below that level)...maybe 2 of them would have made it, the other 2 would have been superceeded by players bought from elswehre who'd already reached a higher level and they'd have either sat on the bench or more likely joined a middling club.

Barcelona aren't lucky, they spend a ridiculous amount on youth development, they shouldn't be alone in this.
 
I think it can happen that an entire country has a weak generation - it happens all the time, everywhere.

The Dutch had to wait a while from their title 88 until a new good generation arrived 8 years later.
The Germans had to wait 16 years from their title in 90 until now to have good young players again (you could argue that their title in 96 came on the back of the players from 90).
And so on.

It is a circle, it's strange - but it does happen. There's always a few good players coming through - but not enough. Such is life.
 
Many, including Ferguson, have criticised the rule that prevents English clubs from signing under-12s who do not live within an hour of a club's academy and under-16s who live more than 90 minutes away. This means clubs are more anxious to sign players over 16 of a better quality. When compensation for players taken from other teams at this age is about £400,000 in England and £85,000 in Europe, the decision is easy.


The need to improve coaching standards is something Brooking has long stressed. "We need to study foreign coaching techniques in great detail because we are lagging behind," said Middlesbrough's head of recruitment, Ron Bone. "Foreign players are technically better than us. In England we have the attitude 'we don't need that, our coaches are as good as any others in the world'. I'm sorry but they are not." Ferguson presumably agrees.

"In Holland there is a pyramid system whereby the big clubs - Ajax, PSV Eindhoven, Feyenoord - pay affordable compensation to the lesser clubs for the promising talents and then provide the best development. Even if they are sold abroad at 20, like Ryan Babel, Marco van Basten [the Holland coach] has no shortage of top-class players to choose from."

All of this from a Guardian Article http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2162600,00.html


The big 4 English clubs probably spend as much as Barca, but the system works against them as do the English having stupid ideas of the worth players at 16. Fuck me 400,000 for an unproven spotty boy.
 
I just can't see why it would be. They're the same physically, if anything the coaching and facilities should have improved, there are so many players going through youth systems that the numbers alone should ensure you still get a lot of talent...it just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying you should get a Ronaldinho in every group of players, but at least a few who can (and will) get into the first team.

I mean, how can Liverpool go from Carragher, Gerrard and Owen, to...well, just nothing. It's been 10 years since those guys came through, that's more than one group of youth players coming through after them.

Who's come through Arsenal's youth system in, let's say, the last 15 years? So they'd be early 30s now at most. Obviously there's Ashley Cole, I'm just wondering who else of that standard. You guys will know better than me as Arsenal fans, players who've made the grade at Arsenal having joined at 14 or younger.

I really do hope you can come up with others of that sort of high standard, we've already spoken about a lot of Barca players, and there are others like Reina, Luis Garcia...they just churn 'em out.
 
Interesting stuff seanoff, our system is fucking over English talent. Let's say you're the best 11 year old in the country. The best club you live within an hour of isn't even in the Premiership. You join them anyway though, it's your dream to be a footballer. Unfortunately, the best coaches in the country and the best youth systems aren't available to you. You don't get the best development, you go from being the best player in the country to one of many decent ones.

What a great system.
 
You don't have a Zidane coming through in France every year, you don't have a Ronaldo coming through in Portugal every year and you don't have a whoever there is in Germany coming through every year.

They are all the same physically, but they just aren't as good. The dutch system is probably the best in the world, they have countless players coming through each year - but only every now and then do you get a Bergkamp, Kluivert, Van Persie coming through.

And if you are lucky there's a few coming through at the same time. It's the same everywhere, I can't help it but that's it.
 
Mama Smurf said:
Interesting stuff seanoff, our system is fucking over English talent. Let's say you're the best 11 year old in the country. The best club you live within an hour of isn't even in the Premiership. You join them anyway though, it's your dream to be a footballer. Unfortunately, the best coaches in the country and the best youth systems aren't available to you. You don't get the best development, you go from being the best player in the country to one of many decent ones.

What a great system.
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and then that little club charge 5X more than a mainland European club for the same std of player. IIRC Fabregas cost Arsenal 400K, and he was stellar.


Arsenal's under 16 academy is in NE london, so that is their available player market. Those kids get the best available but some kid from Canterbury who is a prodigy has no hope. Some oaf yelling "hoof it son". weeeeee
 
I just said I don't expect a Ronaldinho to come through every generation, but I expect a few Ashley Coles.

Let's say there are 30 top class players every generation (as in for every year, 21 year olds, 20 year olds, 19 year olds...) around the country. Because of the dumbass English rules, you'd be extremely lucky if your team has 3 of those. They're spread out all over the place. Consequently, not only are most of them missing out on the best coaching, they're also missing out on playing with the best players.

At Barcelona they get to play with the best of their own age under the best coaches. No wonder they're so much more successful at bringing them through.
 
hadareud said:
You don't have a Zidane coming through in France every year, you don't have a Ronaldo coming through in Portugal every year and you don't have a whoever there is in Germany coming through every year.

They are all the same physically, but they just aren't as good. The dutch system is probably the best in the world, they have countless players coming through each year - but only every now and then do you get a Bergkamp, Kluivert, Van Persie coming through.

And if you are lucky there's a few coming through at the same time. It's the same everywhere, I can't help it but that's it.
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Isnt Brazil the notorious exception?
 
You're also completely forgetting the most important thing especially for the future..... Kids don't play football as much as they used to. They haven't for a while now and it contributes to a shrinking talent pool across England. I mean it wasn't so bad when I was young, the 19, 20, 21 year olds now, but, if you've spent any time working in child care you will have realised kids just can't be bothered with football or sports in general so much. I guarentee you in 10 years the problem will be worse then it is now.

I'm not really too bothered though to be perfectly honest. As long as luck remains with us we'll have atleast a decent international side.

Oh and you quote Barcelona having a great youth academy but, I don't really see that giving Spain the world cup..... It's all down to how much football is played, the attitudes of the kids in the country and a little luck. =P
 
hadareud said:
You don't have a Zidane coming through in France every year, you don't have a Ronaldo coming through in Portugal every year and you don't have a whoever there is in Germany coming through every year.

They are all the same physically, but they just aren't as good. The dutch system is probably the best in the world, they have countless players coming through each year - but only every now and then do you get a Bergkamp, Kluivert, Van Persie coming through.

And if you are lucky there's a few coming through at the same time. It's the same everywhere, I can't help it but that's it.
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Yup, and something we're really proud of. Even more amazing considering the amount of people that live here compared to the likes of Brasil (only 16 million)
 
The Dutch really are punching way above their weight, it's very impressive. Brazil are 3.8 times bigger than England and England are 3 times bigger than Holland, but set up a 3 way tournament between the teams and you'd be hard pushed to call a winner.

Portugal might take the crown from Holland though if they keep it up producing the players they have recently, they only have a population of 10.5m.
 
Pato just scored his first goal for Milan in Kiev. He is actually very good. Best in Milan squad so far.

Dynamo is winning 2:1 after fist half though.
 
Ronok said:
You're also completely forgetting the most important thing especially for the future..... Kids don't play football as much as they used to. They haven't for a while now and it contributes to a shrinking talent pool across England. I mean it wasn't so bad when I was young, the 19, 20, 21 year olds now, but, if you've spent any time working in child care you will have realised kids just can't be bothered with football or sports in general so much. I guarentee you in 10 years the problem will be worse then it is now.

I'm not really too bothered though to be perfectly honest. As long as luck remains with us we'll have atleast a decent international side.

Oh and you quote Barcelona having a great youth academy but, I don't really see that giving Spain the world cup..... It's all down to how much football is played, the attitudes of the kids in the country and a little luck. =P
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Spain is going to play the final of the WC U-17. Their kids are awesome, the problems is that the teams in Spain rarely use the talent they get from their youth programs, they prefer to buy proved talents.

Click in the link to see all the youth tournaments Spain has won. http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=esp/ranking/gender=m/index.html
 
The ones that really get me are the countries that have split and are still very competitive. I think the total population in Yugoslavia was around 20m and the three pieces (Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia & Herzegovina) still have pretty solid sides.
 
Fagan, the Derby twat who stamped on Arbeloa, has been banned for 4 games. He was banned for 3 games initially after seeing video evidence, which I'd just let go, but then he pissed me off by appealing when it was one of the most blatant attempts to injure a player I've ever seen, and got an extra game for wasting the panel's time.
 
h0pper said:
You can put all the money you want into youth, but if they don't produce at the end of the day, you lose money. Buying already proven players may be expensive, but it's also alot easier. You buy a world class player like Torres for 26 million pounds or whatever he went for, and you are guaranteed a Fernando Torres. You may pump out a few quality players here and there, but like I said, there are many factors you'd have to consider and tackle when it comes to youth production. I tihnk that's the reason that most clubs don't take the youth system approach, it's too much of a risk and too time consuming.
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http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...5/1015599_citys_production_line_rolls_on.html

City's academy costs 2 million pounds to run annually. 2 million. That's hardly a ball-buster, even for a club that flirts with relegation (and occasionally gets a little too drunk and hooks up with it) year in and year out.

Just by selling Traitor Barton they paid for almost 3 years worth of costs. Dumbass Abramovich paid for 10 years when he bought Wright-Phillips.
 
Kinan said:
Pato just scored his first goal for Milan in Kiev. He is actually very good. Best in Milan squad so far.

Dynamo is winning 2:1 after fist half though.
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Yeah!!! I really hope that we now have the Sheva-substitute (the fucking flop oliveira is scoring goal in every match in Zargoza). Gila scored as well, I really hope that he can gain confidence and start scoring lots of goals.
 
I feel Spain lack steel. They have all the finesse in the world, but they seem to lack a core strength. Sort of the opposite of England.
 
IMO the problem with Spain is that they lack skilled creative midfielders. England and Germany suffer from this same problem and thus have not been able to win anything important in over a decade. Italy and France enjoy a surplus of creative talent and thus they have accumulated trophies and important accomplishments during these last years. This is just my opinion, I do not mean to offend anybody.
Osorio said:
Don't forgot that Spain is the world's choke artists.
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Yeah, and believe me I love that fact. I do not mean to be an asshole, but I love to see how my Spaniard friends are always sure to win something major almost every year just to crap themselves when the time comes.
 
Fabregas, Alonso, Luis Garcia, Xavi? These are some of the best creative midfielders in the world, we all saw how good their creative game was during the world cup.

I think it's players like Gerrard, Rooney, Terry and Hargreaves that Spain lack, players who'll never give up, players with real bite.
 
godhandiscen said:
IMO the problem with Spain is that they lack skilled creative midfielders.
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Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta disagree.

I thought Spain were a bit unlucky in the last world cup, and they are tougher than they used to be. Puyol and Alonso are both strong leader types and fabregas is growing into one as well. I don't think Aragones is a good manager though.
 
Mama Smurf said:
Fabregas, Alonso, Luis Garcia, Xavi? These are some of the best creative midfielders in the world, we all saw how good their creative game was during the world cup.

I think it's players like Gerrard, Rooney, Terry and Hargreaves that Spain lack, players who'll never give up, players with real bite.
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I do not deny they are among the best in the world, but there is a vast difference between the ones you mentioned and the ones like Ribery, Zidane, Pirlo, Ronaldinho, Riquelme, Messi, and others. You know, the ones that actually make a difference when they play for their national teams.
Also, what have Gerard and Rooney accomplished with their national squads? I do not know how they are relevant to the discussion.
 
Mama Smurf said:
I don't think there is. Zidane perhaps.
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Then why is that these kind of players always end up winning the trophies in the national competitions while the other always come close? There is a difference, is just that people like to ignore it to have hope. It is harder to see this difference in club football because the squads are composed of different kinds of talents that were carefully chosen by a manager, thus it is harder to see the weaknesses in the talents of certain nations. This is the way I perceive football to be honest and it has brought me a lot of money betting in Las Vegas. I would be 10k in winnings alone if it wasn't for the fact I bet half that in France winning the final. My worst mistake ever.

edit: Also, I guess the fact that my national team just plain sucks makes me good at betting because I never have a bias.
 
godhandiscen said:
Then why is that these kind of players always end up winning the trophies in the national competitions while the other always come close?
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Italy winning last year was more to do with cannavaro and a hard working midfield than their creative players
 
Stevie Gerrard said:
Italy winning last year was more to do with cannavaro and a hard working midfield than their creative players
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I disagree. I believe Pirlo played some amazing matches, but then again, I used to be a midfielder when I was younger so I guess I am biased in that aspect.
 
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