Support NeoGAF

[Adaren]

I disagree that Fang was the most independent character. She's a creation for Vanille. Her story and motivations largely revolve around Vanille, which is disappointing.

Yeah, "independent" might not have been the best word for that. I was mainly thinking about how Fang goes through her "woe is me" character arc faster than any of the other characters and with relatively little support from the other characters.

Fang's motivations are a bit one note, and I wish that there were more instances of Vanille supporting Fang instead of just the opposite. But Fang consistently cares more about Vanille than Vanille cares about herself (Vanille has a terrible opinion of herself for most of XIII), which helps to separate her motivations from Vanille's.

 

[Jennipeg]

It might be really bad, too. It might turn out that the other target market you speak of is simply a vocal minority who don't actually give a shit about video games and sales would actually tank. Keyword: might. That's the risk publishers are avoiding.

The number of men and women playing games is pretty equal now, a survey suggests that more women own consoles than men.

http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/4/9669110/pew-research-center-female-gamers-statistics

So the sexy requirement isn't really targeting the majority anymore. It's just continuing the trend, and is becoming more tedious. Now is the time to see how the market as a whole reacts to something different, because it is more balanced.

I should add that I don't think overt sexiness in characters is totally wrong, it has its place and always will despite my personal feelings. But to give opportunities elsewhere is a positive move. Diversity means just that, so it doesn't exclude sexy characters, its not about taking things away, its about adding variety.

 

[Tyaren]

If this happens, I will forgive them for Cindy's questionable wardrobe choices. I demand equality in my fanservice, dammit!!

... I'm part of the problem, aren't I? lol

You like these?
Alright, then I can admit that I made them. I'm going to make one for Noctis and Prompto too. Prompto is going to have floaties on his arms. XD

 

[Jennipeg]

If this happens, I will forgive them for Cindy's questionable wardrobe choices. I demand equality in my fanservice, dammit!!

... I'm part of the problem, aren't I? lol

When I look at Cindy I just roll my eyes. But the reason I have an actual issue is because she is hanging around her grandfather dressed like that. Sorry to sound like a prude but its so inappropriate, I know its a game but just no.

 

[PolishQ]

You're moving the goal posts. I'm more or less assuming the 'so what?' is meant to say what's wrong with them being sexy? which is what I would like to know.

Many people have already explained to you that there's nothing inherently wrong with a character being sexy. We also agree that sexy and sexist are not the same thing. What is sexist is that female characters by and large are REQUIRED to be sexy, and male characters are not. Like the OP says, it's the pattern that's sexist.

Could Cidny keep her current design but be re-written to be a much less embarrassing character? I think that would be an interesting challenge, but it would probably be possible. Maybe if she was a mischievous semi-antagonist ala Yuffie that sabotaged the party's car. I'm just spitballing here.

The point is that in her current form, Cidny is a UI barely disguised a character, with a "sexy" (like, "sexy mechanic" Halloween costume) coating. She has no depth, no motivation, doesn't get to make any decisions. Do you get why people are complaining about that?

Censorship on the other hand is a whole different conversation which we won't get into in this thread.

Censorship? Now who's moving the goalposts.

 

[OrionX]

You like these?
Alright, then I can admit that I did them. I'm going to make one for Noctis and Prompto too. Prompto is going to have floaties around his arms. XD

Haha yeah I think they look great! You're a really good artist. I'd be happy to judge the quality of your Noctis and Prompto art too.

When I look at Cindy I just roll my eyes. But the reason I have an actual issue is because she is hanging around her grandfather dressed like that. Sorry to sound like a prude but its so inappropriate, I know its a game but just no.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's over the top too. I just tend to be more forgiving when there's some eye candy on both sides.

 

[opulent_lemon]

Your hypothetical scenario is unbelievably insulting and offensive to the millions of women who would love to live in that reality rather than the real-life scenarios of sexual harassment, rape, discrimination, inequality, and gender bias that they are CURRENTLY going through and have endured since the dawn of time. Really, I want you to know right now I take your statement seriously, and I want you to know, bluntly and clearly, that I find it derogatory and offensive.

But to answer your question, in a hypothetical scenario of equality where everyone gets equal and fair treatment, having a game that exclusively starred men wouldn't be inherently sexist, but if said game was like FFXV, where the women are beaten and exist only as peripherals to support the men, be rescued, and are "strong" only to make the men greater, then it would still be sexist.

You act like sexism doesn't also factor in men. While men tend to have it better in our world, there is an unhealthy sexism of machismo in many parts of the world, where men are expected to conform to the standards of being strong and masculine and shamed for enjoying or experiencing more "feminine" feelings or experiences. "You throw/hit/run like a girl" is still an insult culture tells men to avoid. Many gay men all over the world face this stigma to this very day. Even straight men who are just quiet, shy, or gentle can and have faced ridicule, and this is also unhealthy.

So, yes, your scenario would still be sexist, and I'll again state your argument to disregard all the sexism we currently face is just as offensive to me as asking me to disregard all the racism or xenophobia or homophobia minorities face.

I don't really understand how me giving a hypothetical scenario that describes the ideal world that you and apparently millions of women would love to exist in in order to understand your point of view is derogatory or that I'm dismissing all the current prejudice in the world today but okay.

 

[Mcdohl]

So the old woman discussion got me thinking.

Are there any old women in Final Fantasy games (feel free to include spin-offs) that:

1.) Are not immortals who look like they're 20-30.
2.) Are more than an NPC with a few lines of dialog. Major characters, playable characters, minor characters, it's all fine as long as they have some relevance to the plot and aren't just this person you walk by who goes "Hey Sonny, in my day we got our mail from the mailbox!" or only appears in a crowd shot.

If we can't come up with old ladies, I'll extend it to people in their mid 30s or older (even though this isn't actually old) since that's the age a lot of the male party members hit (Auron, Steiner, Basch), though we did have Strago at 70.

Do you even FF, bro?

I: Matoya (yes, she only had a few lines of text, but for FF1 standards, she was pretty relevant to the plot, and even had her own cave and theme)
III: Unei
XI: Grav'iton
XIV: Matoya
Unlimited: Chocobo Sisters

And in their mid 30s range
IX: Queen Brahne
XIII: Nora (unsure about her age, but she does look in the age range)

Bonus:
XII: Judge Drace (She's 33, which slightly misses the criteria, but I love how the judges look)
XIV: Merlwyb (there is no data about her age but she might be mid 30s too)

But yeah, there are not that many.

 

[opulent_lemon]

to give opportunities elsewhere is a positive move. Diversity means just that, so it doesn't exclude sexy characters, its not about taking things away, its about adding variety.

This is the best and most objective perspective I've ever read on this subject.

 

[opulent_lemon]

She has no depth, no motivation, doesn't get to make any decisions. Do you get why people are complaining about that?

I totally get it. We don't know if that's all she is yet though.

Censorship? Now who's moving the goalposts.

I didn't mean to imply that's what you were talking about I only mentioned it because that happens to be one of the main issues that gets discussed when it comes to otaku games.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I don't strongly disagree with anything you're saying here, to be clear. I've just noticed a real tendency for many in the community to be very eager to rush to judgement on every facet of the game (doesn't have character action controls in an incomplete demo - combat is doomed; IQ is not great in early footage -- visual presentation of game is doomed; car drives itself -- entire game is on rails and sense of exploration is doomed; Duscae's geography is somewhat bland -- entire game will basically be a potato-world with no interesting features). It just goes on and on. It's hard not to read at least some of the complaints about Luna in the same vein, given how little we know about how she functions in the game.

That's a fair point, which I think can easily be attributed to the long wait and a poor management of fan expectations (even acknowledging how difficult that was going to be). The premature judgement is what it is. We're given stuff to look at it, and all we can do is draw conclusions from what we have. Maybe we're wrong, maybe we'll be spot on.

Que sera, sera

Cindy's outfit is absurd, true. So is Fran's and Ashe's in FF XII, Anne's outfit in P5 and Fie's in ToCS 2, and the sorceresses' in Witcher 3, and Kat's in Gravity Rush, and many of the female characters in Overwatch, and the the MC in Nier:A and on and on. That doesn't excuse Cindy, but she does seem to get a disproportionate amount of attention.

I don't think anyone complaining here will tell you those outfits are great, especially an example like Fran or Fie. I mean, just as an easy example, we've had numerous discussions on GAF about female bodies in Overwatch, with many of the same people from this thread participating in them.

From what we've seen so far, Luna's goals are supportive of Noctis' role as some kind of world savior. OK, literally every character in a game like P3 or P4 and ToCS is written around supporting and building up the main (male) character.

Persona has characters that may all share a huge central focus on the MC, something I'm not really a huge fan of, but it gets away with it by virtue of the cast being diverse and well enough written (read: they're interesting people). The diversity and writing of FFXV's cast seems comparably lacking and subsequently far, far, far less interesting. Some of the characters you've mentioned also have stupid outfits, but again get away with it by virtue of having some kind of explanation (or by at the very least looking compelling), even though the reason is often dopey. There's really no viable excuse for Cindy to look the way she does. And I hate to harp on it again, but Luna just from a visual standpoint is boring as shit. There's nothing intriguing about her to me. She's total generic waifu bait.

And I like Persona and Trails and The Witcher and Nier a lot. Not trying to start a fight on that front. But people seem quite willing to look past certain potential issues in other games in a way they do not for XV. Is that just due to the size of the franchise? Is that because recent games in those franchises have been relatively well written while the XIII saga wasn't? Those might be fair reasons, but I still find it curious.

I've said it before, I think there's an issue of pedigree and history going on. I don't love the sexualization in The Witcher 3, but it's also been there from the beginning of the series.

Not that I'm going to excuse the series (or CDPR) forever, but there's a difference between a series that has been sexed up from the beginning and seems to be progressing a bit (Remember the sex cards in the TW1?) and a series that seems to be regressing in terms of female portrayals.

 

[Flame Lord]

The thing that people refuse to consider is...maybe the artistic vision sucks balls.

I won't stop you from making it, but don't expect me to not critique you just because of "artistry."

Then don't buy it. No one has a problem with you criticizing the game, what some have a problem with is those who throw a temper tantrum and try to make devs change their vision just to fit their own views.

 

[Jennipeg]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's over the top too. I just tend to be more forgiving when there's some eye candy on both sides.

That's fair, I actually wouldn't mind Cindy too much if she either zipped up her jacket, or wore trousers. It's the display of everything that is super tacky.

This is the best and most objective perspective I've ever read on this subject.

Thanks! I think others are saying similar things, its just getting the phrasing right.

 

[pashmilla]

As for Duckroll's dismissal of FF XV as irredeemably focused on male gaze, that also seems premature.

Cindy's outfit is absurd, true. So is Fran's and Ashe's in FF XII, Anne's outfit in P5 and Fie's in ToCS 2, and the sorceresses' in Witcher 3, and Kat's in Gravity Rush, and many of the female characters in Overwatch, and the the MC in Nier:A and on and on. That doesn't excuse Cindy, but she does seem to get a disproportionate amount of attention. From what we've seen so far, Luna's goals are supportive of Noctis' role as some kind of world savior. OK, literally every character in a game like P3 or P4 and ToCS is written around supporting and building up the main (male) character.

Would Duckroll also dismiss those games as expressly designed around stroking male ego w/ no other meaningful elements to characterization/plot?
.

I addressed this in the Cindy section of my OP. Revealing outfits by themselves are not inherently bad; with Cindy the presentation is what drives her over the line into blatant pandering. Fran is a freaking playboy bunny in a metal leotard but the camera never swoops gratuitously over her body while the male characters gawk; same with Ashe, and Kat.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I addressed this in the Cindy section of my OP. Revealing outfits by themselves are not inherently bad; with Cindy the presentation is what drives her over the line into blatant pandering. Fran is a freaking playboy bunny in a metal leotard but the camera never swoops gratuitously over her body while the male characters gawk; same with Ashe, and Kat.

Actually this is a good point I forgot to address, the oggling camera angles really just drive the whole thing so far over the top.

Then don't buy it. No one has a problem with you criticizing the game, what some have a problem with is those who throw a temper tantrum and try to make devs change their vision just to fit their own views.

People are free to demand change until their throats run hoarse, and the developers are free to ignore the criticism.

Get over it.

 

[Flame Lord]

People are free to demand change until their throats run hoarse, and the developers are free to ignore the criticism.

Get over it.

And you can do all the yelling you want, but when release day comes you'll be there right in line, contributing to something you claim to hate so much. Or maybe you won't, with all the anger and vitriol you're all throwing around I would hope you don't.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

And you can do all the yelling you want, but when release day comes you'll be there right in line, contributing to something you claim to hate so much. Or maybe you won't, with all the anger and vitriol you're all throwing around I would hope you don't.

Cool, I hope to not see you around too. Bye.

 

[PolishQ]

I totally get it. We don't know if that's all she is yet though.

They've done nothing to imply otherwise.

Anyway, if you get it, why are you dropping bullshit terms like SJW?

 

[Ferr986]

Do you even FF, bro?

I: Matoya (yes, she only had a few lines of text, but for FF1 standards, she was pretty relevant to the plot, and even had her own cave and theme)
III: Unei
XI: Grav'iton
XIV: Mayota
Unlimited: Chocobo Sisters

And in their mid 30s range
IX: Queen Brahne
XIII: Nora (unsure about her age, but she does look in the age range)

Bonus:
XII: Judge Drace (She's 33, which slightly misses the criteria, but I love how the judges look)
XIV: Merlwyb (there is no data about her age but she might be mid 30s too)

But yeah, there are not that many.

Graviton and XIV Matoya falls under the NPC with just a few lines of dialog though. Hell Graviton most common form is a Tombery.

And Merlwyb isn't even old come on, she loooks like a standard female Roe.

 

[Dark_castle]

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

 

[PtM]

objective perspective, lmao

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

Women don't count. Pretty girls though…

 

[pashmilla]

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

I seem to recall a cool grizzled soldier lady in the beginning of the Last Remnant. I think her name was Irena? She was cool. Haven't played the rest of the game so idk if she's particularly prominent. But yeah, it's depressing.

Remember pregnant Lulu in X-2? That was hilarious.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

Even in FFVI, which had a very large cast, they scrapped Strago's wife who was going to be playable :lol

 

[opulent_lemon]

They've done nothing to imply otherwise.

Anyway, if you get it, why are you dropping bullshit terms like SJW?

It's not a bullshit term. I think a great term to describe the group of people who are vocally upset about this exact kind of thing. I'm all for diversity in games as long as the core of the game, the gameplay, doesn't suffer because of pandering.

 

[Inuhanyou]

The term "SJW" should be grounds for autoban.

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

Guess Sayuri's size

 

[PtM]

It's not a bullshit term. I think a great term to describe the group of people who are vocally upset about this exact kind of thing. I'm all for diversity in games as long as the core of the game, the gameplay, doesn't suffer because of pandering.

You're bullshitting only yourself. Gender presentation has ZERO to do with gameplay.

 

[Jennipeg]

I seem to recall a cool grizzled soldier lady in the beginning of the Last Remnant. I think her name was Irena? She was cool. Haven't played the rest of the game so idk if she's particularly prominent. But yeah, it's depressing.

Remember pregnant Lulu in X-2? That was hilarious.

I always put that down to pure laziness on the dev's part. Although I spent the game thinking it was early days in her preganancy. Then a baby suddenly appears! lol

 

[.JayZii]

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

Important middle-aged female characters are pretty rare across all of media, unfortunately.

 

[Mcdohl]

Graviton and XIV Matoya falls under the NPC with just a few lines of dialog though. Hell Graviton most common form is a Tombery.

And Merlwyb isn't even old come on, she loooks like a standard female Roe.

No they don't.

They are both relevant to the plot (as in being part of it and required to progress), AND they have more than a few lines of dialog. They also both have their own themes.

They offer knowledge and guidance to the player, they give quests, etc. Interaction with them is necessary to finish Rise of the Zilart / Heavensward in both terms of gameplay and story.

Read original post by Nirolak, by few lines of dialog, he meant random town NPCs that just say "hey sonny" and shit.

As for Merlwyb, what does standard female Roe mean? Age is a complicated matter in this game. We know that at least 5 years elapsed between 1.0 and ARR. So the formula for her age would be:
Starting age + time elapsed during 1.0 + 5 years + time elapsed since ARR launched.

Edit: Also, why does being a Tonberry make Gravi'ton less of a character? Yes Kuluu devolved into Tonberries, but they used to be people, and in fact, it is thanks to Graviton that you learn that. (more points to her being plot relevant )

 

[Inuhanyou]

It's not a bullshit term. I think a great term to describe the group of people who are vocally upset about this exact kind of thing. I'm all for diversity in games as long as the core of the game, the gameplay, doesn't suffer because of pandering.

*As long as they pander to the things i want and appreciate.


I find it amusing how you can cry about pandering, when its only in one direction your uncomfortable with. The gameplay suffers not a bit from giving Cindy a better set of clothes and appropriate camera angles that don't oogle her lady bits constantly.

 

[Mediking]

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

Wait for Final Fantasy XVI

 

[YankeeDonB]

I addressed this in the Cindy section of my OP. Revealing outfits by themselves are not inherently bad; with Cindy the presentation is what drives her over the line into blatant pandering. Fran is a freaking playboy bunny in a metal leotard but the camera never swoops gratuitously over her body while the male characters gawk; same with Ashe, and Kat.

The camera angles are totally yucky, agreed - but some of what's been shown and commented on has been shown with free camera control. If you mained Fran in XII there were plenty of opportunities for yucky ogling, and there is with Kat too.

A lot of those other characters I mentioned are clearly designed to pander to the male gaze and even if it's not always blatant, camera angles are selected and scenes blocked out to reinforce that.

I don't say this to defend Cindy's design, which I find embarrassing. Just to note that I'm not sure FF deserves to be the poster child for objectification of women in games, particularly based off of impressions of an unreleased product. Nothing can redeem Cindy's design, but it's one little piece of a huge game in an industry with lots of similar designs.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That, I honestly don't see. I've yet to see a case where fanservice led to fewer sales, and fanservicey characters tend to sell the most merchandise.

How exactly do you prove that? The Last of Us sold well, maybe it would have sold less with fanservice. In fact I think it quite likely.

I don't defend otaku games if they're legitimately bad games. Censorship on the other hand is a whole different conversation which we won't get into in this thread.

Oh gods not the "censorship" BS again.

It's amazing that when developers add T&A fanservice in their games, they're just "trying to sell".

But, if they decide, "you know what, a lot of people are getting sick of the T&A and feel alienated, we might sell more if we have less insulting female characters instead", suddenly, that's not them having a creative vision for their product, nor is it trying gain sales, no, it's "censorship" and "pandering to SJWs".

Important middle-aged female characters are pretty rare across all of media, unfortunately.

Once they hit menopause 30+ years of age, women cease to exist, it seems like.

 

[opulent_lemon]

You're bullshitting only yourself. Gender presentation has ZERO to do with gameplay.

Ideally, yes; but extra effort put towards making sure no possible demographic gets butt hurt about representation might take time and resources away from improving or polishing gameplay elements.

 

[Mediking]

Speaking of which... good OP, Jennipeg.

 

[opulent_lemon]

It's amazing that when developers add T&A fanservice in their games, they're just "trying to sell".

But, if they decide, "you know what, a lot of people are getting sick of the T&A and feel alienated, we might sell more if we have less insulting female characters instead", suddenly, that's not them having a creative vision for their product, nor is it trying gain sales, no, it's "censorship" and "pandering to SJWs".
.

why not both? fanservice or lack thereof can be a creative vision. There's critics on both ends.

 

[opulent_lemon]

*As long as they pander to the things i want and appreciate.


I find it amusing how you can cry about pandering, when its only in one direction your uncomfortable with. The gameplay suffers not a bit from giving Cindy a better set of clothes and appropriate camera angles that don't oogle her lady bits constantly.

Ideally, gameplay wouldn't and shouln't suffer but extra effort put towards making sure no possible demographic gets butt hurt about representation might take time and resources away from improving or polishing gameplay elements.

 

[Zhutchka]

I get a bit annoyed that some people seem to dismiss Cindy purely because of the outfit. If you can't take her seriously because of a revealing outfit, then that's probably more sexist than the outfit itself, regardless of the motives behind it. I don't know how things are in America, but in summer-time Europe there are hordes of girls and women dressing just as revealingly in city centres, supermarkets and even schools. Why shouldn't they? They might be proud of their bodies, or they might just find it comfortable, or they might enjoy raising some attention, or it might make them feel empowered. I'll wager that they generally put very little thought into the pleasure or displeasure of men when they choose their daily attire. People wear t-shirts with prints for similar reasons. It's not a big deal.

I'm reserving judgment until I've played the game, but I suspect Cindy will after all not be a very worthwhile character and I think it's a missed opportunity to not have her simply be Cid and fill that role, regardless of what she happens to be wearing. The writing is the problem - not the outfit.

 

[Mcdohl]

I don't understand why middle-aged female character are so rare in Japanese games, especially as an important character and not a random NPC.

Me neither, I was just addressing specific comments. Fact-checking

Also, maybe FFXV will have some important old ladies.

I didn't like Kingsglaive very much, but at least one thing it did better than versus XIII is being more diverse in the Lucis council.

They went from Yakuza sausagefest to old n boring people (but at least diverse, they had

Spoiler

old

women and a black person among them).

 

[Neoleo2143]

I get a bit annoyed that some people seem to dismiss Cindy purely because of the outfit. If you can't take her seriously because of a revealing outfit, then that's probably more sexist than the outfit itself, regardless of the motives behind it..

No? That's called weak storytelling, if an audience can't invest in your story somehow then you've failed as a storyteller and should revise it for the future. It's not my job to take fictional characters seriously that the authors themselves do not. I do that sometimes but that's because I personally enjoyed the characters in spite of the author's intention.

And you bring up an interesting point, arguably the most interesting point about Feminist media theory and that is the intention of the Author. I think that aspect is the most concerning aspect of the situation if the author treats its fictional women like toys, how do they think of real women? That might be extrapolating too far, but it's a concerning question for those interested in Feminist Theory as it applies practically.

 

[Jennipeg]

How exactly do you prove that? The Last of Us sold well, maybe it would have sold less with fanservice. In fact I think it quite likely.


Oh gods not the "censorship" BS again.

It's amazing that when developers add T&A fanservice in their games, they're just "trying to sell".

But, if they decide, "you know what, a lot of people are getting sick of the T&A and feel alienated, we might sell more if we have less insulting female characters instead", suddenly, that's not them having a creative vision for their product, nor is it trying gain sales, no, it's "censorship" and "pandering to SJWs".


Once they hit menopause 30+ years of age, women cease to exist, it seems like.

Yes, I'm always wary of the artistic vision argument when debating this type of thing. Unless the designer comes out and says, 'this is my vision, this is what I wanted to create' its difficult to know how much of their original concept actually makes it into a game. They could be working to a brief, in which case they are interpreting somebody else's idea, or their initial concept could be rejected and revised before we ever see it. Rarely will we see the artists original vision, this goes on behind the scenes and means that the artists vision is compromised before we even see it. Unless it is George Kamitani we are talking about, who fully owns up to this design.

 

[PolishQ]

I'm all for diversity in games as long as the core of the game, the gameplay, doesn't suffer because of pandering.

Ideally, gameplay wouldn't and shouln't suffer but extra effort put towards making sure no possible demographic gets butt hurt about representation might take time and resources away from improving or polishing gameplay elements.

So, you're not for diversity in games at all. And you don't care how people outside of your demographic feel. Thanks for being honest.

 

[Jennipeg]

I get a bit annoyed that some people seem to dismiss Cindy purely because of the outfit. If you can't take her seriously because of a revealing outfit, then that's probably more sexist than the outfit itself, regardless of the motives behind it. I don't know how things are in America, but in summer-time Europe there are hordes of girls and women dressing just as revealingly in city centres, supermarkets and even schools. Why shouldn't they? They might be proud of their bodies, or they might just find it comfortable, or they might enjoy raising some attention, or it might make them feel empowered. I'll wager that they generally put very little thought into the pleasure or displeasure of men when they choose their daily attire. People wear t-shirts with prints for similar reasons. It's not a big deal.

I'm reserving judgment until I've played the game, but I suspect Cindy will after all not be a very worthwhile character and I think it's a missed opportunity to not have her simply be Cid and fill that role, regardless of what she happens to be wearing. The writing is the problem - not the outfit.

I know what your saying, its true women do wear revealing clothing in everyday life. But in your examples of where they would wear these clothes, you missed out the workplace for obvious reasons. The issue with Cindy is that she is in the workplace, she would not be wearing this outfit there. If in the game she says 'oh its my day off' then fair enough.

 

[Zoe]

Also, maybe FFXV will have some important old ladies.

I didn't like Kingsglaive very much, but at least one thing it did better than versus XIII is being more diverse in the Lucis council.

They went from Yakuza sausagefest to old n boring people (but at least diverse, they had

Spoiler

old

women and a black person among them).

Really? All I noticed was there are no Asians in a Tokyo-inspired city, and the one Asian we did get had no lines until he ended up being the first traitor on screen.

(apparently Masi Oka was hidden in there somewhere... I don't remember hearing him)

 

[Inuhanyou]

I get a bit annoyed that some people seem to dismiss Cindy purely because of the outfit. If you can't take her seriously because of a revealing outfit, then that's probably more sexist than the outfit itself, regardless of the motives behind it. I don't know how things are in America, but in summer-time Europe there are hordes of girls and women dressing just as revealingly in city centres, supermarkets and even schools. Why shouldn't they? They might be proud of their bodies, or they might just find it comfortable, or they might enjoy raising some attention, or it might make them feel empowered. I'll wager that they generally put very little thought into the pleasure or displeasure of men when they choose their daily attire. People wear t-shirts with prints for similar reasons. It's not a big deal.

I'm reserving judgment until I've played the game, but I suspect Cindy will after all not be a very worthwhile character and I think it's a missed opportunity to not have her simply be Cid and fill that role, regardless of what she happens to be wearing. The writing is the problem - not the outfit.

I hope your not equating feminism to being a prude. There is a difference between being sexy, having a revealing outfit, and how that is portrayed in a story telling medium to its audience in regards to progressive sentiments.

No one is saying that her outfit ALONE is the problem. We're saying that her outfit, her irrelevance to the game in general, how she has been promoted, and the treatment of the other females in the game are worthy of concern.

 

[duckroll]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Cindy's outfit honestly. I think sexy outfits are cool. But I do think that male gaze direction when it comes to cutscenes and character introductions is pretty juvenile and embarrassing. Kojima has a huge problem with this in Metal Gear too. You can have a sexy outfit for a character. You can come up with a dozen "story" reasons to justify why a character might wear an outfit like that. But when the camera goes out of its way to mimic voyeuristic viewpoints and emphasizes the sexiness of a character for the sole purpose of titillation, that's no excuse for that other than the people making the product being perverted and naughty. And you know, that's okay too, if you want to be honest about it. But if you don't, and want to pretend to have some respectable reason to do it, then something something ashamed of words and deeds something.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

So the old woman discussion got me thinking.

Are there any old women in Final Fantasy games (feel free to include spin-offs) that:

1.) Are not immortals who look like they're 20-30.
2.) Are more than an NPC with a few lines of dialog. Major characters, playable characters, minor characters, it's all fine as long as they have some relevance to the plot and aren't just this person you walk by who goes "Hey Sonny, in my day we got our mail from the mailbox!" or only appears in a crowd shot.

If we can't come up with old ladies, I'll extend it to people in their mid 30s or older (even though this isn't actually old) since that's the age a lot of the male party members hit (Auron, Steiner, Basch), though we did have Strago at 70.

Matoya in the original FF and FFXIV

and Unei from FFIII are the first that come to mind. Both are very major characters.

 

[Mcdohl]

Really? All I noticed was there are no Asians in a Tokyo-inspired city, and the one Asian we did get had no lines until he ended up being the first traitor on screen.

(apparently Masi Oka was hidden in there somewhere... I don't remember hearing him)

Did you not notice there were women now? One of them

Spoiler

even fights, and gets crushed by Glauca

.

Don't be hyperbolic.

As for your argument minus the hyperbole, you are right, they sacrificed Asian representation in favor or women + a black guy.

I have no idea what's the rationale behind that decision, maybe trying to be western appealing?

 

[Mediking]

What do you guys think about Lulu from FFX? I think she's awesome.

 

[Mcdohl]

What do you guys think about Lulu from FFX? I think she's awesome.

She wanted to give a cool and serious vibe yet...lol.

I actually like her, but I feel that her victory pose was out of character (similar to Lightning using skimpy outfits on LR).