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[Vlaphor]

Yeah this character is totally fine the way it is. Pandering to the minority of minorities to squeeze $$ for dakimakuras surely reinforces your already failing brand.

Except I don't think that's the case. Fanservice still manages to sell quite well all over the world, and I'd be surprised if there were that many people who won't buy the game because of Cidney. On the other hand, you now have a highly marketable character in terms of merch, which is good for additional revenue streams.

If I was making a game, I'd try to put in a fanservicey character in there somewhere.

 

[pashmilla]

Edit: Added Cindy's section to OP.

 

[YianGaruga]

I don't think the analysis and criticism should focus on Cindy and why she is a bad character. A mechanic in hot pants, sure. Why shouldn't a character like this be in the game. It's fine. I like her because she's sexy, I'm simple like that sometimes.

The problem is that there, apparently, are not enough other strong and capable female characters so her appearance stands out.

Look, sex sells, I get it. Sexy characters appeal to people. The problem lies in the fact that Cindy is purely there for her sex appeal. Her “pawpaw” is the actual Cid. So what purpose does Cindy serve, then? Eye-candy. That’s it. And sure, one fanservice character doesn’t make a game sexist. It’s the pattern. Where are the scantily clad male mechanics who cover their bare chests in grease and drape themselves over the hoods of cars? Oh wait, they don’t exist, because games are made for straight dudes. Silly me.

I don't agree. The main party is very obviously not made for straight dudes. Anecdotally, I can tell you that the party can be extremely off-putting to straight dudes. The problem isn't that there's not a male mechanic as well. Would Cidny really be a big problem if there were 4 really cool and strong female party members? She would just be one minor character, so whatever. The problem is that there aren't (m)any others.

 

[Zedark]

Except I don't think that's the case. Fanservice still manages to sell quite well all over the world, and I'd be surprised if there were that many people who won't buy the game because of Cidney. On the other hand, you now have a highly marketable character in terms of merch, which is good for additional revenue streams.

If I was making a game, I'd try to put in a fanservicey character in there somewhere.

I think this is true, also Cindy is probably not that important of a character. I think she will only appear in the first part of the game and then fade away into memory, only to be brought up in dedicated gaming forums like Neogaf every once in a while (just a hun, of course, so no guarantees).

 

[Alienous]

That's the point though. It's a really common, badly overused trope that you show how bad someone is by having them beat up a woman. Lots of games and films do it (Assassins creed always seems to have a serial killer who kills women).

It's a complex issue because on the one hand there are a lot of men who inflict violence on women, and we shouldn't shy away from that - but at the same time, it shouldn't be the only way that we show someone is evil. Which all too often it is - a quick and easy solution to demonstrate how bad something is.

But it isn't the only way they show they're evil. Don't the bad guys kill a ton of people, including King Regis? To then have Luna, who they have reason to keep alive (the Romeo and Juliet thing I suppose), in captivity and to not treat her violently might be incongruous with the characters; "We killed everyone, and are attacking the protagonists, but hitting a woman is where we draw the line".

 

[DrunkShogun]

I can see what op is saying. Still think we need the full game to have an informed opinion. Square has written decent female characters from tactics orge and final fantasy tactics to recent games. Curious on the female characters of Tabata directed games.
Like many have said comparing Stella to Luna is unfair since Luna seems to have taken a backseat to the main plot whereas Stella seemed to be sharing top billing with noctis.

 

[pashmilla]

Curious on the female characters of Tabata directed games.

The things I've heard about Type-0 have been... ungood. Isn't there a minigame about taking upskirt shots of the female party members?

 

[TrutaS]

I have never been able to find this info but: won't there be any female playable characters in XV? Will we be forced to stick with the bro guys?

 

[Deft Beck]

Did people already forget about the entire XIII trilogy and Lightning as a character? Criticism aside, that was an entire trilogy centered around one woman and her sister who come into positions of strength and agency throughout their journies.

FFXV doesn't need any pressure to conform to previous standards because it's its own story, which happens to be about four guys and their acquaintances, including a busty mechanic girl and a princess in captivity.

I have never been able to find this info but: won't there be any female playable characters in XV? Will we be forced to stick with the bro guys?

It's just the guys. I think you might have Gladio's sister as a support NPC at one point.

 

[Otakumegane]

I think gifs of Cindy may help to better present SE's blatant Megan Foxing of her. Walls of text may not get the point across.

 

[Tohsaka]

The things I've heard about Type-0 have been... ungood. Isn't there a minigame about taking upskirt shots of the female party members?

No, nothing like that. I don't think you can even look up their skirts manually with the camera on the console versions, I know on PSP it was possible to hack the camera to move into any position with CFW.

 

[YianGaruga]

Female characters in FF XIII were terrible as well for the most part. Fang was okay. Lightning barely has a character.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Female characters in FF XIII were terrible as well for the most part. Fang was okay. Lightning barely has a character.

Lightning is probably *the* most developed character in FF history, having gotten more than 2 games where her journey is at the forefront.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

It was going to be a spin-off so idc that much. Next mainline will probably have a predominately women cast or some shit, it's not like FF is the type of game that needs to bow down to dumb focus testing.

 

[Zedark]

Very interesting bit about Cindy. I see no empowerment for her anywhere, and I believe, as had been mentioned in the thread already, she is there as a minor character to draw in some of the fanservice-craving gamers. That in itself is not that big of a problem, as long as it does not become a pattern. I look forward to your other entries on different characters to see if you can convince me about there being a pattern.

Also OP, will you add this bit to the opening post for visibiliry? It will make the OP long, but otherwise no one will see it.

 

[TrutaS]

Did people already forget about the entire XIII trilogy and Lightning as a character? Criticism aside, that was an entire trilogy centered around one woman and her sister who come into positions of strength and agency throughout their journies.

FFXV doesn't need any pressure to conform to previous standards because it's its own story, which happens to be about four guys and their acquaintances, including a busty mechanic girl and a princess in captivity.



It's just the guys. I think you might have Gladio's sister as a support NPC at one point.

That's unfortunate. I usually ignore the normal male characters in these games.

In terms of overall female representation XV does seem to be worse than any other Final Fantasy, which as a series outputs some of the strongest, most interesting women in games, I believe, playable too.

 

[nOoblet16]

Female characters in FF XIII were terrible as well for the most part.

Perhaps in terms of writing, which is subjective anyways but not in terms of portrayal.

Lighting was never sexualised in FFXIII, same for others. You could make a case for when Vanille uses her summon's ultimate move but that's one instance.

Beside all of them are powerful, Lighting despite her sexualisation in the later games in terms of her outfits ended up being the most powerful and fleshed out character in the entire series. Even Vanille, who is shown to be physically weak was shown to be magically strong as mentioned by the OP.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Watch Kingslglaive OP. We have reason to be even more concerned than what we have seen in the game.

I don't think Luna HAS to be weak because she has barely done anything except get knocked around, but its not a good look at all for the team to be advertising the game like this. If you want to show her off, do it in more positive ways that give us an actual reason to be hopeful she will buck our expectations.

As it stands now, the only female character i see actually having potential is Gentiana, but she's barely anywhere in marketing materials and hardly shows up.

And yeah...Cindy...just Cindy.

People can cry all they like about Roberto ferrari's design, but he's not the one out there writing Cindy's actual role in the game right now, i don't see how anyone could have signed off of how she's been showed at all.

Especially considering the team's viewpoint that wanting female party characters are a contradiction because Cindy isn't liked. What the fuck

 

[Paracelsus]

Lightning is probably *the* most developed character in FF history, having gotten more than 2 games where her journey is at the forefront.

I couldn't disagree more.

You can develop a

Spoiler

mary sue

, that doesn't make her any less of a

Spoiler

mary sue

. I would say from the little I've seen Velvet is a far better developed character than anything ever conceived about Lightning.

 

[YianGaruga]

Lightning is probably *the* most developed character in FF history, having gotten more than 2 games where her journey is at the forefront.

I couldn't disagree more.

Perhaps in terms of writing, which is subjective anyways but not in terms of portrayal.

Lighting was never sexualised in FFXIII, same for others. You could make a case for when Vanille's uses her summon's ultimate move but that's one instance.

Beside all of them are powerful, Lighting despite her sexualisation in the later games in terms of her outfits ended up being the most powerful and fleshed out character in the entire series. Even Vanille, who is shown to be physically weak was shown to be magically strong as mentioned by the OP.

Maybe my dislike for the games just shines through in my opinion. I don't think they were great characters at all. Strong, sure. I don't have a problem with sexualization as long as it's just one aspect of the character either.

I just don't think they're at all interesting. But I guess that's not the point of the thread. In terms of balance between male and female, FF XIII was alright I guess.

 

[nOoblet16]

Maybe my dislike for the games just shines through in my opinion. I don't think they were great characters at all. Strong, sure. I don't have a problem with sexualization as long as it's just one aspect of the character either.

I just don't think they're at all interesting. But I guess that's not the point of the thread.

I was gonna say that is not the point of this thread...but you said it yourself at the end.

 

[SomTervo]

I get where you're coming from, and I do think this is a worthwhile discussion...but I don't think it makes any sense to get into this before the game is out

This.

I love what you're doing with the post OP but you should come back to it a month or two after the game's out. Then we can have a really meaningful discussion.

You're right, however, that the signs so far aren't promising.

 

[pashmilla]

This.

I love what you're doing with the post OP but you should come back to it a month or two after the game's out. Then we can have a really meaningful discussion.

You're right, however, that the signs so far aren't promising.

Oh believe me, when the game is out there will be words (whether on the sexism of the game or its misleadingly sexist marketing is yet to be seen). I just saw the new trailer with Luna getting pimp-slapped and my slowly-simmering anger at this game kind of boiled over into an angry post

 

[nOoblet16]

You can develop a

Spoiler

mary sue

, that doesn't make her any less of a

Spoiler

mary sue

. I would say from the little I've seen Velvet is a far better developed character than anything ever conceived about Lightning.

Tell me how this Velvet is a final fantasy character.

He said she is the most developed character in the series, there is no point disagreeing with him by making a case of how some other character from outside the series is more developed in your opinion.

 

[TropicalFish]

“People say Cindy is too sexy, but they also want female party members. That seems contradictory to me.”

LMAO I had no idea he said this.

I can't.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Did people already forget about the entire XIII trilogy and Lightning as a character? Criticism aside, that was an entire trilogy centered around one woman and her sister who come into positions of strength and agency throughout their journies.

But, FF13 trilogy was terrible though. Does that really count? Especially the latter two games of the trilogy, she's not even a character, she has literally nothing to do with her previous personality in the first game. Also Toriyama's creepy obsession with putting her in scantily clad outfits for no purpose whatsoever except to oogle this supposedly serious former solider woman.

The things I've heard about Type-0 have been... ungood. Isn't there a minigame about taking upskirt shots of the female party members?

To be fair Crisis core was good about female portrayal, i loved Aerith's role, and Cissnei was essentially my favorite character in the game outside of Tifa.

 

[Chille]

Cindy is awesome, wish I could get that car skin. ;-;

 

[Iriscomeback]

Just read your piece about Cindy and I can't agree more.

Her outfit is absolutely ludicrous, and even more stupid because she is a MECHANIC.

Seriously, if her top was closed without her boobs falling out it would be much better. Still stupid, but better.

 

[LastOne2100]

I will agree, from what we've seen so far...this doesn't look good. Definitely seems to be a culture clash here.

However, I'm still in the wait and see camp. I mean it's possible Cindy is an actual real character who will be important and strong instead of just being eye candy...right?...maybe...

 

[nOoblet16]

But, FF13 trilogy was terrible though. Does that really count? Especially the latter two games of the trilogy, she's not even a character, she has literally nothing to do with her previous personality in the first game. Also Toriyama's creepy obsession with putting her in scantily clad outfits for no purpose whatsoever except to oogle this supposedly serious former solider woman.



To be fair Crisis core was good about female portrayal, i loved Aerith's role, and Cissnei was essentially my favorite character in the game outside of Tifa.

That has no bearing on the discussion.
Beside plenty of people like XIII-2 and LR as a game.

But did you read the OP's post about Fran? How she was scantily clad but it wasn't am issue unlike Cindy? The same applies to Lighting...even more so because she is ridiculously powerful.

 

[Vlaphor]

Cindy is awesome, wish I could get that car skin. ;-;

You should still be able to. I know there's a way to enter the contest without pre-ordering the game, and the first prize everyone wins is the car skin. I know this, because I've done just that. I haven't pre-ordered the game (holding out hope for a PC version...and that the ride with Cindy VR stuff is in said PC version), but I still have the car skin added to my Square Enix account.

Edit: Actually, I just checked the Carbuncle Surprise website and that skin may have only been for the first week...

 

[wildfire]

I get where you're coming from, and I do think this is a worthwhile discussion...but I don't think it makes any sense to get into this before the game is out and we have full knowledge of who these characters are and what they do.

It's far too easy to come to erroneous conclusions when all we've got of Stella is a few short clips and all we've got of Luna is slightly more short clips (and Kingsglaive, now).

Well, except for Cidney/Cindy. There's not much else I can see happening there, so it's probably safe to critique her design and role in the game without much concern that she'll be represented better in the full game.

No it makes sense to get into it now because it's fairly apparrent that XV is a step back compared to their past portrayals.

Bu that right there is why I don't care. After 12 games and 2 MMOs of getting it right even if it is confirmed they regressed doesn't do away the fact most of the same people have been working on the same games. As a result to their long legacy I can chalk this up as a creative decision instead of as an ongoing trend that exists everywhere else in the gaming industry.

This is not the hill I would want to make this fight on.

 

[YianGaruga]

I also think this shouldn't be seen as a cultural problem or a trend. There are plenty of japanese games and especially JRPGs which are not this lopsided with gender representation.

This is very much a FFXV problem.

 

[Yellowflashdude]

It feels like people are way too harsh on FF as a franchise when it comes to female characters. Almost every mainline game on the series, there were at least 1 or 2 "strong" or well developed female characters. Not many other franchise can say they had a female character leading their games.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I also think this shouldn't be seen as a cultural problem or a trend. There are plenty of japanese games and especially JRPGs which are not this lopsided with gender representation.

This is very much a FFXV problem.

This is also true. Having their marketing director say that kind of thing about Cindy right in front of the staff with no one even blinking or rebutting such a notion is pretty bad. Tabata was right on camera too smiling away

 

[Lime]

pashmilla, you forgot the most telling statements of all:

 

[Inuhanyou]

It feels like people are way too harsh on FF as a franchise when it comes to female characters. Almost every mainline game on the series, there were at least 1 or 2 "strong" or well developed female characters. Not many other franchise can say they had a female character leading their games.

I don't think people are referring to Final Fantasy right now in general, but what we've seen of FF15 specifically, and how, even if the characters turn out to be completely different in game, have essentially given off horrible vibes before launch, from the movie interpretation and the promotional materials.

 

[Tohsaka]

Cindy is awesome, wish I could get that car skin. ;-;

You can!

 

[patapuf]

This is also true. Having their marketing director say that kind of thing right in front of the staff with no one even blinking or rebutting such a notion is pretty bad.

They are not going to argue about that in public.

That's in adition to the general corporate culture that places a very high importance on hierarchy.

 

[TropicalFish]

pashmilla, you forgot the most telling statements of all:

Smh how long ago was this?

Like how are the two things related at all? And how is it contradictory?

I still can't.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I don't think people are referring to Final Fantasy right now in general, but what we've seen of FF15 specifically, and how, even if the characters turn out to be completely different in game, have essentially given off horrible vibes before launch, from the movie interpretation and the promotional materials.

There's nothing they can do when people over analyze pre-release content. It's the same shit that's led to the bizarre obsession with Stella. A character that very little was ever known about but people treat her like she'd be the greatest game character ever made.

 

[Inuhanyou]

They are not going to argue about that in public.

That's in adition to the general corporate culture that places a very high importance on hierarchy.

They dont have to 'argue' about it. Tabata is the director, he can playfully rebut that without giving off that air of dismissal.

There's nothing they can do when people over analyze pre-release content. It's the same shit that's led to the bizarre obsession with Stella. A character that very little was ever known about but people treat her like she'd be the greatest game character ever made.

We're not talking about Stella or anybody else in FF right now. We're talking about Luna and the other characters in the game. Must you deflect from the actual topic?

 

[pashmilla]

I'm not sure I follow the notion that "oh, the other FF games have had well-written female characters who weren't blatantly sexualised, so give FFXV a break!" Like... no? If I see sexism I'm gonna call it out. Dealwivit.

 

[oneofthose]

I always try to stay away from topic like these but people crying over cindy costume is stupid final fantasy has never been realistic. I always hate people cry about how costumes not being practical and how it wouldn't work in real life. Guess what its not meant to be realistic its just a design. Its fictional.

I always hate how people instantly call something in game that has revealing skin "shes a who a wh*re" There are alot of girls in real life that wear really revealing clothes i see girls every day with short skirts etc. Nobody calls them wh*res or w/e.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

No it makes sense to get into it now because it's fairly apparrent that XV is a step back compared to their past portrayals.

Bu that right there is why I don't care. After 12 games and 2 MMOs of getting it right even if it is confirmed they regressed doesn't do away the fact most of the same people have been working on the same games. As a result to their long legacy I can chalk this up as a creative decision instead of as an ongoing trend that exists everywhere else in the gaming industry.

This is not the hill I would want to make this fight on.

There is that too. While I sympathize with any women who were used to FF games being pretty good about giving them characters to enjoy playing as or with, I feel like the series overall is *so* much better than most of its contemporaries, and that it's perfectly fine to make a game that tells this very specific story about four men.

I do hope Luna and other characters we haven't seen much from will be fully developed and interesting characters though. It'd be a shame if Luna really does exist just to give the characters someone to save or get emotional over.

 

[SOLDIER]

I can't believe people are making such a stink because Luna gets slapped by a bad guy in the latest trailer.

In one of the FFX trailers before release, they show Yuna fainting. OMG weak female character confirmed.

 

[Turin]

I really, really wanted to talk about this, but having not seen Kingsglaive I didn't feel qualified to =/

Maybe include a Crowe segment for the post mortem thread in December.

 

[LancePrime]

It feels like people are way too harsh on FF as a franchise when it comes to female characters. Almost every mainline game on the series, there were at least 1 or 2 "strong" or well developed female characters. Not many other franchise can say they had a female character leading their games.

Surely if they've proved they can have strong female characters before its even more shit that they've regressed now?

I'm really hoping that Luna turns out to be a good well written character, but Cindy is a bit much for me.

 

[SolidSnakex]

We're not talking about Stella or anybody else in FF right now. We're talking about Luna and the other characters in the game. Must you deflect from the actual topic?

I was pointing out that they can't do anything about people who over analyze the characters before they're released. You even said yourself that characters may very well turn out to be completely different in the final product, wihch is actually extremely common in not just games but in movies as well.

 

[Village]

Where are the scantily clad male mechanics who cover their bare chests in grease and drape themselves over the hoods of cars? .

Eh to be fair while none of it is car related, Maybe its not for you.But I find that a lot of the women i know personally into this game... think all 4 protagonists are hot. I know men who think the same, there is also a shirtless or rather shirt open bare chested dude in the party.And the other members fit whatever anime boy cliche you wish to get thirsty over. Not to mention that nyx guy from the movie who is sexualized all over.

Now if you wanna argue cindy having no actual purpose and her " paw paw" is kind of taking away from her shine. Sure. You wanna argue that her outfit could be better and she didn't need to be sexualized? I agree with you. But to suggest that this is somehow unique to cindy , this sexualization is unique to her a female character? I can't agree this is four handsome dudes of very specific tropes going on a road trip, this shit is most literally tumblr ship bait of the highest goddamned order.

Again I agree with you on the other stuff, though I would... much like to wait for the game to release... so we can have context. But as we have been presented so far I agree with you on a lot of point. But I can't get too mad at cindy, with shirtless mc mullet handsome face is in your party at all times, and you can dress him up.