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Opinion: SNK was/is really ahead in characterization.
- Thread starter Silky
- Start date
thesolidshark
Member
I've always tried, but the SNK cast has never totally clicked with me. I think it's because when when Fatal Fury came out, I really didn't think it was a good game at all and a really poor attempt and mimicking SF2. For some reason, a little of the feeling has always stuck with me.
I have to agree, most of them look like characters that were scrapped from other fighting games, like Street fighter, Tekken, Guilty Gear ect. And put in a fighting game that isn't as good.
Meccanical
Member
I will never understand why there was never a beat em up starring Terry Bogard.
Seriously. What's up with that.
Seriously. What's up with that.
I read that around the planning stages for KoF94 there was a rough idea of a beat-em-up starring Terry and Robert called Survivor, but I can't find much info on it.
As for the Robert/Kensou thing, they firt got a sprcial intro referencing their common accent in KoF97 - despite one being italian and the other chinese.
thesolidshark
Member
Might've been nice especially with his Real Bout move list,
but these guys had the blond brawler thing already going.
Thanks Loona.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I will give you the background and thought put in to the characters' backgrounds and stories but SNK's actual character design has always bored me to tears.
Meccanical
Member
Terry would have done it the best though.
:V
:V
WAR recon zero
Banned
The whole backstory, characterization and atmosphere converted me into SNK games.
That got lost during the years, and gameplay is king now on XIII
Like both SNKs, however SNKP is a shadow of the past
That got lost during the years, and gameplay is king now on XIII
Like both SNKs, however SNKP is a shadow of the past
IrishNinja
Member
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I always felt Capcom approached designing characters as iconic cartoons. Exaggerated, simple, easily identifiable.
SNK's character staff seemed to go for designs that were more subtle, based on rather specific real-world fashions and trends, and making characters look a bit more like someone you could actually meet on the street. (Not in every case, obviously.)
The SNK strategy lended itself to their characters having more complex and nuanced backstories because they could be more like real people who had lives. Capcom's casts don't change due to being fixed caricatures. This isn't to say Capcom's strategy is bad, just different from SNK.
SNK's character staff seemed to go for designs that were more subtle, based on rather specific real-world fashions and trends, and making characters look a bit more like someone you could actually meet on the street. (Not in every case, obviously.)
The SNK strategy lended itself to their characters having more complex and nuanced backstories because they could be more like real people who had lives. Capcom's casts don't change due to being fixed caricatures. This isn't to say Capcom's strategy is bad, just different from SNK.
WAR recon zero
Banned
5 frames, more personality than AAAA games
Coldblooded ... but true.
5 frames, more personality than AAAA games
I played lots of KOF99 and that stage had the perfect mood.
I love how all the SNK heroes has suffered some sort of evolution trough their series
1) Terry: From the lonely wolf with a street look to a more mature design of a ''father'' while still looking like a renegade
2) Ryo: From the karate guy with his sleeves broken to a more traditional uniform as mr karate 2
3) From student to gackt to his actual more adult design, like solidshark said, his gesture of burning his headband (plus tears playing at the background) really made you felt that he suffered a big change
4) Haohmaru: from his ronin design to being an old man in the psx exclusive game.
5) Kaede evolved from a normal guy to a ''super saiyajin'' non stop
and hell, you can consider too the change from kyo, to k' to ash as protagonists in kof
1) Terry: From the lonely wolf with a street look to a more mature design of a ''father'' while still looking like a renegade
2) Ryo: From the karate guy with his sleeves broken to a more traditional uniform as mr karate 2
3) From student to gackt to his actual more adult design, like solidshark said, his gesture of burning his headband (plus tears playing at the background) really made you felt that he suffered a big change
4) Haohmaru: from his ronin design to being an old man in the psx exclusive game.
5) Kaede evolved from a normal guy to a ''super saiyajin'' non stop
and hell, you can consider too the change from kyo, to k' to ash as protagonists in kof
Shinkiro's style made some of the characters imo.
I prefer SNK's designs (mostly because they recognize where their characters could change and usually get it right), but I do think Capcom's characters have more flavor and just appeal to the U.S. more.
Between KoF, SamSho, and LB, the former probably has the weakest designs as far as impact goes.
As pretty as XIII is, some of the characters look downright silly (personally, this isn't necessarily a bad thing... Capcom's characters look downright silly at times as well). Should've went with the Neo-Geo artstyle (SNK is better at that).
I prefer SNK's designs (mostly because they recognize where their characters could change and usually get it right), but I do think Capcom's characters have more flavor and just appeal to the U.S. more.
Between KoF, SamSho, and LB, the former probably has the weakest designs as far as impact goes.
As pretty as XIII is, some of the characters look downright silly (personally, this isn't necessarily a bad thing... Capcom's characters look downright silly at times as well). Should've went with the Neo-Geo artstyle (SNK is better at that).
Hopefully the rumor about XIV going back to it's '98 roots is more than just the gameplay.
Tizoc
Member
@OP- ...and that's pretty much all the character development King has ever had, but I find it funny how she had a chubby guy's face in her AoF1 artwork XP.
SNK character designs are pretty cool, but I feel like their characterization, much like SF characters, has hardly gone anywhere nor have they developed for the past decade or 2.
For those that haven't read it yet, read this FAQ about the SF characters and background:
http://fightingstreet.com/folders/variousinfofolder/variousinfopages/streetfighterplotguide.txt
SNK character designs are pretty cool, but I feel like their characterization, much like SF characters, has hardly gone anywhere nor have they developed for the past decade or 2.
For those that haven't read it yet, read this FAQ about the SF characters and background:
http://fightingstreet.com/folders/variousinfofolder/variousinfopages/streetfighterplotguide.txt
Yes, they are amazing at this.
Look at Ash for example, so much personality. Obviously he is supposed to be the annoying type but not only is that evident in his design but even in his style of gameplay (which can be very annoying and frustrating to deal with).
The best part for me with SNK is that they have the balls to change up their characters, from the design to the gameplay. And they do it to all characters, even iconic one's like Iori, Kyo, Terry etc.
Look at Ash for example, so much personality. Obviously he is supposed to be the annoying type but not only is that evident in his design but even in his style of gameplay (which can be very annoying and frustrating to deal with).
The best part for me with SNK is that they have the balls to change up their characters, from the design to the gameplay. And they do it to all characters, even iconic one's like Iori, Kyo, Terry etc.
XIII actually does pretty well both on gameplay and the characterization fronts - it's easier for the competitive aspect of the game to stay in the limelight due to tournaments, but the work put into the story, personalities and referencing backstory is kind of astounding - some favorite little things the game pulled off:
- the Kensou/Raiden dialogue in arcade mode references Red Dragon from 3-Count Bout, an old SNK wrestling game which had no formal association with the rest of the setting so far - the closest so far had been a piece of Shinkiro artwork from the Fatal Fury 2/Special days
- heck, giving Raiden the option of not wearing his mask when you select him, confirming he's Big Bear, was already way above the call of duty, considering we're talking sprites here; it was a popular fan theory before, but the most solid clues were shared music, moves and body proportions, not to mention the merged designs in Fatal Fury Wild Ambition (which made it to the CvS games)
- Hwa Jai's culture clashes with most things that were introduced since his game - ol' FF1 which started the big SNK fighting game ball rolling - namely women fighting with and against the men, not to mention his paranoia regarding Chin, since he remembers what the old man in his game, Tung, was capable of
- Athena's NeoMAX referencing every out outfit she wore in the series, and ending with armored Athenas from the actual Athena game (not Psycho Soldier, where Asamiya's from) wielding every weapon from that game
- the select screen by default has the cursor over Kyo, the classic series protagonist - but every other GUI element in the game that lists characters has Elisabeth and her team first, making it clear that this is very much her story
- referencing part of the XI story events, Shingo can show up with a broken arm in the stage with all the sumotori
- quite a few Samurai Shodown and Last Blade characters appear in the game's stages - this would be weird and pointless fanservice, if the story wasn't about time itself being messed with
- they quote the same poem in quite the subtle way at the very beginning of this story arc, only to complete it at the very end of it's ending's story mode - that's a reference about a decade in the making
Now, I don't know exactly how many people at SNKP know or care about the lore, but the ones that do have certainly pulled their weight in the project.
Hard to argue with the boss.
Can't argue with George Clooney.
Tizoc
Member
...but they eventually revert back to their original look ala KoF XIII with Terry =P
I personally prefer Kyo's White+black look from KoF 99, a fine evolution for the character, them changing the design and just making him look like he's wearing regular clothes is just...funny.
Well, in AoF she was working for somebody else as a bouncer at a South Town place called L'Amour - by KoF96 events she's running her own bar called Illusion, has has a couple of twin employees, she's been team leader of the female team in at least one of the games despite not starting out in that position due to being the level-headed of the bunch, has been getting a lot closer to the Sakazakis in general and Ryo in particular, if reluctantly so, all aspects that weren't present in her source series, which don't necessarily clash with it.
Her story has simply continued elsewhere , within the constraints of KoF's setting being more about people with fire-based powers than the comparatively grounded stories of South Town.
Depends on the series and whom it's focused on, IMO, but it probably doesn't help that the relevant bits are so spread out - some artwork here, some ending there, a bit of pre/post-fight dialogue in a different game, some flavour text in an official site or mook...
It'd be handy to have some equivalent for SNK characters and stories, but in a more readable format - the current wiki might not do though, it can't even agree on things like the name of Krauser's dad across different pages... But there are just so many more characters to deal with...
SNK was great with their earlier work, especially with the Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Samsho and Last Blade games. I was not a fan of the poorer sprite quality in the KOF games. In addition I felt the designs of the new characters really went down the drain after SNK was acquired by Playmore.
edit: I completely stopped giving a damn when it was clear there would never be another Fatal Fury game or Last Blade 3. Also the Real Bout games > Garou. I hated every character in Garou, they just had no soul compared to the old FF cast.
edit: I completely stopped giving a damn when it was clear there would never be another Fatal Fury game or Last Blade 3. Also the Real Bout games > Garou. I hated every character in Garou, they just had no soul compared to the old FF cast.
5 frames, more personality than AAAA games
I remember seeing this for the first time and being so utterly wowed.
Fatal Fury 2 was my first exposure to the SNK side of things, and it easily cemented my love for this company, its characters and its "style".
I really hope those rumors relating to SNKP already working on a new PS3/360 game and having something special planned for KOF's 20th anniversary are true, because the SNKP style of doing things is still very much a unique entity that deserves a place in the games of today.
atomic moth
Member
SNKP still owns the rights to Duck King, right?
If so, they'll always have the best fighting roster.
If so, they'll always have the best fighting roster.
If their character design is really that good then the game should have been more popular (compare to Capcom and Namco).
I'm the one who never find SNK character design interesting. Especially in King of Fighter series. The people who only find it charming is the one who like the game.
I'm the one who never find SNK character design interesting. Especially in King of Fighter series. The people who only find it charming is the one who like the game.
warheat1990
Banned
I completely agree with your opinion.
Is.. is that Geese Howard from Fatal Fury?
Yes.
On his left is Billy Kane. On his right is Mel Gibson. Next to Billy Kane is Walter White.
I think one of the reasons I don't like the Maximum Impact series is that it doesn't fit in the KOF storyline, but rather in the FF/AOF timeline, which just does /not/ make any sense to me. Other than Chae Lim, Lien, and Mignon, some of the characters introduced were...really outrageous for it's time. Too outrageous. The newer cast doesn't fit AOF/FF at all, hell it barely fits Garou (which is where the game takes place.)
I'd like to see those characters featured again, but they'll need to be toned down quite a lot.
Another thing I've noticed is that, if you look at Geese Howard by the time his story ends in FF and in KOF, he doesn't really come off to me as a villain. Other than killing Terry's father, he comes off as a cold businessman/anti-hero type. Hell, the reason he made Big capture Yuri was because of Takuma not paying his debts for his Dojo.
I don't know, I think it's because Geese is one of my favorite characters, but comparing him to like, Rugal and Yuga and Goenitz and Igniz, he seems about as grounded and realistic as any "villain" in a FG that released. Other than that Phoenix Scroll nonsense in Real Bout, he's essentially damn good at what he does, without the need of arbitrary powers or 'dark' influence.
Duck Duck Dub is one of the greatest Fatal Fury themes ever.
It could be argued that SNK and Capcom's popularity was really back and forth around the 90s. I mean, Garou and 3rd Strike released around the same time and they're often hearaled as one of the best 2D fighters of all time. And CvS2 is...well, it's the greatest crossover fighting game title second only to Marvel 2. But by the time Capcom fucked them over with CvS2, and when they got bought out by Playmore, their notoriety in the States went down the shitter, sadly.
I'd like to see those characters featured again, but they'll need to be toned down quite a lot.
Another thing I've noticed is that, if you look at Geese Howard by the time his story ends in FF and in KOF, he doesn't really come off to me as a villain. Other than killing Terry's father, he comes off as a cold businessman/anti-hero type. Hell, the reason he made Big capture Yuri was because of Takuma not paying his debts for his Dojo.
I don't know, I think it's because Geese is one of my favorite characters, but comparing him to like, Rugal and Yuga and Goenitz and Igniz, he seems about as grounded and realistic as any "villain" in a FG that released. Other than that Phoenix Scroll nonsense in Real Bout, he's essentially damn good at what he does, without the need of arbitrary powers or 'dark' influence.
Duck Duck Dub is one of the greatest Fatal Fury themes ever.
It could be argued that SNK and Capcom's popularity was really back and forth around the 90s. I mean, Garou and 3rd Strike released around the same time and they're often hearaled as one of the best 2D fighters of all time. And CvS2 is...well, it's the greatest crossover fighting game title second only to Marvel 2. But by the time Capcom fucked them over with CvS2, and when they got bought out by Playmore, their notoriety in the States went down the shitter, sadly.
Yep. Kane, Ripper, and Hopper too.
First time I saw and played on it was with the Ikari team's new (amazing) music theme playing in the background.
Mind was blown.
Meccanical
Member
They were thinking Bridget.
ihearthawthats
Banned
to op, can't say that i agree. they are good but pretty niche and are limited in variety if you look strictly at kof.
fatal fury and last blade imo are the standout series. terry and duck king are both awesome. kof is too "safe" for me and xiii saddens me with its roster selection.
Ash is a troll to the players. He showed up in 2003 as if he was the new main character and revealed himself as the villain in a secret ending. His new animations in XII and XIII do a great job expressing it.
KoF hasn't "caught up" with Garou yet, though, right? Although I dunno how the time is going forward in canon since they dropped the yearly thing.. if it is year by year then given he was about 7 or something in 2003 would mean he's 17 this year and Garou happened when he was 17.
Hmm.
Edit;
Also, regarding Rock Howard:
What a bizarre detail
Yeah, Ash and Duo Lon both made me scratch my head. Weird choices given how fleshed out the rest of the universe was at the point of their introduction.
I always joked about KoF being ""Battle of the Angry Fashion Models" and that was just when Iori decided to tie his legs together...still, he fit with the theme that the KoF participants are celebrities/super heroes.
Hwa Jai was a nice return to form, though.
I don't think KOF will ever reach to other storylines, considering Garou took place in....2006 canonically. Around that time Terry would be in his early thirties. In XIII he's still in his twenties. Hell I think they de-aged Andy for nostalgia purposes. (Wasn't he older during NESTS saga?)
EDIT: There should be a KOF/SNK canon thread. With how many circles people can go through with it, it'd be enough for like 2 OTs
its better to treat FF, AoF and KOF canon seperate, too many headaches otherwise
besides, thats all well and good, but i would love if SNK would focus more on their other IPs as well, it anoys me thats its all KOF now, i know its the bread winner but come on
Anyway, i would love to see a new Garou, SamSho or Last Blade
Speaking of stages, always loved Terrys from Garou, the train, the sun going up in the background, so great, Gatous, b Jenet and hotarus are personal favorites
besides, thats all well and good, but i would love if SNK would focus more on their other IPs as well, it anoys me thats its all KOF now, i know its the bread winner but come on
Anyway, i would love to see a new Garou, SamSho or Last Blade
Speaking of stages, always loved Terrys from Garou, the train, the sun going up in the background, so great, Gatous, b Jenet and hotarus are personal favorites
It's generally agreed nowadays that KoF is in its own continuity, separate from the one common to Last Blade -> Art of Fighting -> Fatal Fury -> Fu'un series; characterization still tends to be consistent across them, even if some story details aren't.
The differences mostly revolve around things like the age of the AoF characters (made to match the FF folks in KoF), Geese still being alive in the KoF timeline, maybe Yuri's kidnapping never having happened in the Kof timeline (the Sakazakis are completely indifferent to Mr Big and Geese in the non-AoF games they share).
Basically, KoF seems to work like a timeline where everyone gets to meet at their peak ability/popularity, or close to that - and given that the latest KoF story arc has to do with the attempts at time manipulation, it can sort of make sense.
thesolidshark
Member
I think everyone reverting back to their old looks (Terry, Athena, Andy, Kensou, Ryo, etc.) was originally part of the KOF 15th Anniversary back around XII, and it just extended to XIII.
With the exception of Kensou, I think it would've been better to see everyone in current (from XI) or newer outfits. On the plus side in XIII though, the color edit has given me more many older outfit/cosplay options than I know what to do with.
If the rumor is true, you might see news of a new SamSho too.
With the exception of Kensou, I think it would've been better to see everyone in current (from XI) or newer outfits. On the plus side in XIII though, the color edit has given me more many older outfit/cosplay options than I know what to do with.
If the rumor is true, you might see news of a new SamSho too.
SeventhSon
Member
Fatal Fury Special is my favorite fighting game of all time.
You can never have too much Wild Ambition Ryo - at least they brought his old AoF posture back, but still using his plain old looks doesn't help him when he has an alternative cooler and more mature design. Even his dialogue seems to be stuck in a rut in XIII, but at least you can edit his colors so he'll resemble his more badass self.
Amusingly, in XII he actually had a win quote against Ash where he claimed to have cut his treasured painted nails, which was a refreshingly assholish thing to see Ryo do, for once.
With the alternate designs some character for in KoF XIII, I do wish Terry had also been given the option to use his Garou look - his FF2 design did not age well IMO (his FF1 had a shorter ponytail and actual sleeves in his jacket, but never returned), iconic as it may be.
Gears of War Fighter 4 Arcade Edition did it. Why not?