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Original PS1 Tomb Raiders worth checking out?

By the way, Badassgamez streams every Saturday at 12 PST/3 EST.

http://www.twitch.tv/badassgamez

Should be starting soon.

He's playing Tomb Raider 3: The Lost Artifact blind. Last week he made it to Shakespeare Cliff and his chat saw signs in the game for the Chunnel, cuz level is set in the Chunnel, and they laughed thinking it was a typo or something :(
 
By the way, Badassgamez streams every Saturday at 12 PST/3 EST.

http://www.twitch.tv/badassgamez

Should be starting soon.

He's playing Tomb Raider 3: The Lost Artifact blind. Last week he made it to Shakespeare Cliff and his chat saw signs in the game for the Chunnel, cuz level is set in the Chunnel, and they laughed thinking it was a typo or something :(

Awesome! The Lost Artifact has the BEST level design of any TR game imo. Definitely watching, I didn't even know he streamed.
 
You can safely skip out on the PS1 Tomb Raider series as it's rooted in the pre-Mario 64 era of 3D gaming. That grid based movement system is awful. Even when they fixed the movement, like in Tomb Raider Anniversary, then you're just left with a very average and forgettable game.

Ok, I'll put the controls aside for a moment. In what sense is the TR games 'forgettable and average' outside of the controls? Seriously, I'm curious. You seem pretty sure about the view, so you must have some reasons for holding that position. From my view, they have some of the best level design of any game from its generation, and the level design still literally annihilates almost every modern game in the genre. I mean it's not even close. Compare to the grotesque TR2013. The game might as well hold your hand for what it pretends is 'exploration.' The game's platforming is so pathetically forgiving that it's basically one huge insult to gamers everywhere. The developers are saying: "We think you're terrible at games and have no motor skills, so we'll help you out!"

The game is filled with abundant challenges that force you to acquire skills and then actually apply them in sequence. There's some fantastically integrated puzzles which actual require lateral thinking in combination with quick reflexes. In TR2013, or Uncharted, or any game you can think of that's even remotely similar there's nothing even close anymore. Developers have given up trying to actually challenge gamers and design things that force people to think.

I mean the only thing I can say definitely sucks by today's standards is the visuals. I find them hard to stomach too, but it's OK with all the mods on PC. I guess we can say the combat isn't exactly appealing, but that's another bonus about the old TR games - they're meant to feel isolated, so you face much fewer enemies than you do in today's games. A lion or a bear here or there and a few other animals (or dinosaurs), and one or two humans per game. Combat is a tiny fraction of the whole game, you spend maybe 10% of your time ever in combat... and that's being generous.

On the controls ->

I can perform every function in the OG Tomb Raider series to pitch perfect perfection without any problems whatsoever. I could, if I wanted, map out every button combination you need to press in which order - which little variation for certain minute directional changes and running jumps - and if you followed it very nearly to the letter, you would be able to beat the game. The controls have a steeper learning curve than more modern analog controls, that is true. But the result is that mastery of these controls enhances the precision of the controls well beyond what we have in virtually any modern 3D platformer around. There's no disconnect between you and the controls once you understand the approach. You get to a point where you realize it's so precise that it's basically almost always your fault for dying, because you failed to properly apply what you've learned. Steeper learning curve, better overall control upon mastery. The controls are not awful, they simply require a higher than normal base level of skill to become proficient with.

Yes, the series existed in a pre-Mario 64 era. As a result, they made a control system that was centered around the strengths of d-pad, and the result is clear.
 
AHHH nothing in modern tomb raider is as exhilarating as climbing to the top of that big chandelier room in Bertoli's hideout
 
as a long-time fan of the original series, who's even created an humble and utterly forgettable custome level, it is heartwarming to see that there are still many players who enjoy the core games and realize how bad the new ones by crystal dynamics (how the mighty has fallen!) are...
 
FUCK i fell

you mean aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh *crack*

Also, if Tomb Raider were designed today

tomb-raider-iii-adveny0jgp.jpg
 
Ok, I'll put the controls aside for a moment. In what sense is the TR games 'forgettable and average' outside of the controls? Seriously, I'm curious. You seem pretty sure about the view, so you must have some reasons for holding that position. From my view, they have some of the best level design of any game from its generation, and the level design still literally annihilates almost every modern game in the genre. I mean it's not even close. Compare to the grotesque TR2013. The game might as well hold your hand for what it pretends is 'exploration.' The game's platforming is so pathetically forgiving that it's basically one huge insult to gamers everywhere. The developers are saying: "We think you're terrible at games and have no motor skills, so we'll help you out!"

There's also the fact that, despite being based on the same template, Anniversary is so divergent from the original game in the specifics that someone's impressions of one doesn't project anything onto the other.
 
You forgot "secret tomb nearby"
That was one of the worst things about the reboot. Fair enough streamlining the main game but there's no reason the optional tombs couldn't have been hard to find. Plus the tombs themselves should have been more challenging since they were optional.
 
That was one of the worst things about the reboot. Fair enough streamlining the main game but there's no reason the optional tombs couldn't have been hard to find. Plus the tombs themselves should have been more challenging since they were optional.

god everything sucked about this shit except the visuals. never was more painful to play a game than TR2013. Every step was like seeing my childhood destroyed :(
 
Ok, I'll put the controls aside for a moment. In what sense is the TR games 'forgettable and average' outside of the controls? Seriously, I'm curious. You seem pretty sure about the view, so you must have some reasons for holding that position. From my view, they have some of the best level design of any game from its generation, and the level design still literally annihilates almost every modern game in the genre. I mean it's not even close. Compare to the grotesque TR2013. The game might as well hold your hand for what it pretends is 'exploration.' The game's platforming is so pathetically forgiving that it's basically one huge insult to gamers everywhere. The developers are saying: "We think you're terrible at games and have no motor skills, so we'll help you out!"

The game is filled with abundant challenges that force you to acquire skills and then actually apply them in sequence. There's some fantastically integrated puzzles which actual require lateral thinking in combination with quick reflexes. In TR2013, or Uncharted, or any game you can think of that's even remotely similar there's nothing even close anymore. Developers have given up trying to actually challenge gamers and design things that force people to think.

I mean the only thing I can say definitely sucks by today's standards is the visuals. I find them hard to stomach too, but it's OK with all the mods on PC. I guess we can say the combat isn't exactly appealing, but that's another bonus about the old TR games - they're meant to feel isolated, so you face much fewer enemies than you do in today's games. A lion or a bear here or there and a few other animals (or dinosaurs), and one or two humans per game. Combat is a tiny fraction of the whole game, you spend maybe 10% of your time ever in combat... and that's being generous.

On the controls ->

I can perform every function in the OG Tomb Raider series to pitch perfect perfection without any problems whatsoever. I could, if I wanted, map out every button combination you need to press in which order - which little variation for certain minute directional changes and running jumps - and if you followed it very nearly to the letter, you would be able to beat the game. The controls have a steeper learning curve than more modern analog controls, that is true. But the result is that mastery of these controls enhances the precision of the controls well beyond what we have in virtually any modern 3D platformer around. There's no disconnect between you and the controls once you understand the approach. You get to a point where you realize it's so precise that it's basically almost always your fault for dying, because you failed to properly apply what you've learned. Steeper learning curve, better overall control upon mastery. The controls are not awful, they simply require a higher than normal base level of skill to become proficient with.

Yes, the series existed in a pre-Mario 64 era. As a result, they made a control system that was centered around the strengths of d-pad, and the result is clear.

Get out here with those damned indisputable facts!

*ahem* But seriously, excellent. It makes me so happy to see that there do exist people who don't just like the older games, but they understand them, too. It gets lonely sometimes, thinking you're the only one who sees the genius.
 
AHHH nothing in modern tomb raider is as exhilarating as climbing to the top of that big chandelier room in Bertoli's hideout

i love how intricate that level is within like one building block and some canals as you weave your way up down under and around it. the city levels feel a little off to me because they shouldn't be that quiet and empty, other than the enemies there should be more hustle and bustle, whereas it makes perfect sense for a tomb or cavern, but it's such a cleverly designed use of space i don't mind.
 
I don't see what's wrong with the 2013 game, as shown in the GIF?

It's a different style of game compared to the first ones, but not a -bad- style of game. Of course it's a game much more like Uncharted than OG Tomb Raider, sure. But Uncharted is one of the best franchises of the previous console generation, so being favourably compared to it is nothing I can see as negative.

Complaints of "new game stinks, bring back the old style" are best saved for Resident Evil :(
 
Genuinely terrible controls by today's standards

But the atmosphere & music is better in TR1 than any recent TR. How?

Modern game designers need to spend more time thinking about what they want to express with an area rather than "THIS IS A CAVE, HOW MANY THINGS COULD BE IN A CAVE? LET'S LET THE MAXIMUM GRAPHICAL DETAIL DECIDE"
 
Shout out to the Gold level packs, especially TR3 Gold (The Lost Artifact), which was so well-designed that the manual for the Level Editor (released with TR5) used this particular game's design principles as a basis for its suggestions and advice.

vWcDJ.gif


Two key principles I still remember to this day are (1) gradually add possibility after possibility so the player's experience in a level unfolds with a nice arc of straight-forward -> confusion -> solution (or words to that effect); and (2) tantalise the player with out-of-reach areas that, when later reached from a totally unexpected path, educe a satisfying "ah-hah!" moment.

This sort of strong game design I feel is lacking in general, these days.

Yeah it is gone and that's is why when I first got my go at tomb raider 1 fell in love the game just has that special feeling that so little games are able to do and get now ..

Games now shot for the big set piece and and then the rest of the levels lack
While with tomb raider it was the level that was the star fuck I remember the Midas part in the game loved it
The huge one you had to flood too damn I loved that game may just go back and play it this weekend
 
Patrick S. said:
I don't see what's wrong with the 2013 game, as shown in the GIF?

It's a different style of game compared to the first ones, but not a -bad- style of game. Of course it's a game much more like Uncharted than OG Tomb Raider, sure. But Uncharted is one of the best franchises of the previous console generation, so being favourably compared to it is nothing I can see as negative.

Complaints of "new game stinks, bring back the old style" are best saved for Resident Evil :(

No, in this case it does stink. Really fucking badly.

OG Tomb Raider is literally the only series that played the way it did in the industry. Nothing else remotely does. It featured compelling puzzles, hardcore platforming and obstacle traversal and an unparalleled isolation atmosphere. What they replaced it with was yet another modern checklist game that played like any number of a billion other garbage modern titles.

The anger therefore is justified: we lost a true original for yet another copy cat piece of tripe.

Further, the game blows. It fucking sucks. The best I can say is that the actual Lara Croft jumping physics are decent. But that's all I can say... because not a single moment in the game is designed to care. You have such gargantuan windows of error that you basically require no skill whatsoever to proceed in the game. There's never a clever sequence of jumping challenges. You simply jump in a direction and you're likely to make it, the game compensates for you so hard.

The level design is so straightforward and unengaging that there's no longer a sense of mystery or exploration. You're in a series trademark for adventure and puzzles and tombs, and there is almost no adventure or puzzles or tombs. Just hours of torture porn and combat arenas. The few puzzles that there are - what, like six mini pathetic challenge tombs? - are so comically simplistic that the developers might have well have popped a dunce cap on my head and called it a day for what they clearly think of gamers.

The -only- thing that improved in Tomb Raider 2013, other than the visuals, are the combat. And I mean it only improved relative to OG TR, because TR2013 still features a very unimpressive arsenal with limited relevant strategy and hilariously simple enemies who pose no challenge whatsoever. The only neat thing is the arrow rope thing to pull down ledges, and you see all there is to that after the ninth time the game employs the fucking daft strategy. The rest is fucking gruesome finishing moves with PRESS BUTTON TO WIN.

But here's the thing: Tomb Raider was never about combat, ever. So you replaced a series that had almost no combat in the games with a game that is worse in every conceivable way but moves the meter up to "mediocre combat" instead of "shit combat."

Hurray for Pyrrhic victories!
 
When people say it's aged poorly I read "shits too difficult"

A lot of people say they like Tomb Raider 2013 because they don't have to think as much (at all) to play it. They don't want to "get stuck". I remember one guy in the TR 2013 thread when it came out got really upset because after hours of shoot-bang the game finally asked him to figure out a really really easy puzzle (opening the windows in the monastery to blow a bell to destroy wooden support columns). I've seen people say they've basically gotten older and don't want to invest that much effort into playing games anymore. They want to relax and have the game fed to them. But I've gotten older and I still want my games to challenge me. I want to actually play a game. If I don't want to play a game I can watch a movie. It's fine for these kinds of games to exist for the people that want them, but I feel like people that still want to be challenged are getting left out to dry as old franchises shift towards becoming essentially the videogame equivalent of summer blockbuster popcorn flicks.
 
And India is the first level! Those games just didn't care if you got stuck or felt dumb. If you didn't feel dumb, you weren't playing it right.

You are damn right about that I can't remember how many times I felt dumb playing tomb raider 1 but fuck I kept going at it games now don't have that feeling any more

The LEVEL and it's puzzles were the stars back in the TR time and I miss that games keep going the wrong way now ...

A games like that can't and wouldn't be made now it's just too hard for 80% of gamers that crave big set piece BOOM explosion and on to a corridor
(Even of every one talks crap about FF13 most games are like that)

Damn lol I feel old lol and I'm just 27 lol just that I went from master system to Saturn and tomb raider came with my Saturn lol the days and days I put in that game but I can say I finished it !!!

But to the OT get the game and play it and when you feel dumb your doing it right pay attention to the sounds (pro tip) lol and things you go like naw can't be like that and it damn right it's is lol
Like on the T. Rex level get on top if that building thing yeah lol
 
what's everyone's favorite puzzles from the game?

Mine I think will always be that rad series of puzzles from St. Francis Folly, the one that had the Sword of Damocles, Atlas, Poseidon puzzles all together and you had to solve them all to proceed to your goal.

That was just the perfect mix of everything in the game, really thought it was brilliant.

Francis's Folly IS a classic. So unique and challenging while being tons of fun.
 
A lot of people say they like Tomb Raider 2013 because they don't have to think as much (at all) to play it. They don't want to "get stuck". I remember one guy in the TR 2013 thread when it came out got really upset because after hours of shoot-bang the game finally asked him to figure out a really really easy puzzle (opening the windows in the monastery to blow a bell to destroy wooden support columns). I've seen people say they've basically gotten older and don't want to invest that much effort into playing games anymore. They want to relax and have the game fed to them. But I've gotten older and I still want my games to challenge me. I want to actually play a game. If I don't want to play a game I can watch a movie. It's fine for these kinds of games to exist for the people that want them, but I feel like people that still want to be challenged are getting left out to dry as old franchises shift towards becoming essentially the videogame equivalent of summer blockbuster popcorn flicks.

Totally agree with you, I was so disappointed with the "tomb raider" aspect of TR2013.

I loved the challenge of the old ones, having to actually think and work out what you had to and where to go.

Its one area where TR2013 failed miserably.
 
The original Tomb Raiders are a bit of an anomaly... back in the day, Tomb Raider 2 was absolutely my favorite game of all time. Now, I can't stand to play it even for a minute. Really strange.

I would have to also recommend Anniversary. BUT Play TR Legend (ps360) if you never have though, it still plays really well and looks good.
 
So tomorrow Badassgamez is going to continue trying to beat TR2 in one sitting without using a medpack and without saving on Twitch. Last Sunday he got up to the ventilation puzzle in The Opera House and died because he got too close to the fan behind the jade dragon secret.
 
So tomorrow Badassgamez is going to continue trying to beat TR2 in one sitting without using a medpack and without saving on Twitch. Last Sunday he got up to the ventilation puzzle in The Opera House and died because he got too close to the fan behind the jade dragon secret.

Since they died getting a secret are they going for 100% too or just all secrets? If the latter then I guess they at least get the chance to skip some tricky parts/fights.
 
Yes it's great. I had the PC and Saturn versions. Tank controls and puzzles. Walk to the edge, hop back, run jump and grab...


Shimmy to the left.
 
Since they died getting a secret are they going for 100% too or just all secrets? If the latter then I guess they at least get the chance to skip some tricky parts/fights.

He's getting all secrets. He fought the T-Rex, too.

This puzzle is the work of Satan.

It may singlehandedly bring my score of the game down an entire point. I haven't been this frustrated by a video game in... years?
Posts like this from the reboot thread are depressing :(
 
No, in this case it does stink. Really fucking badly.

OG Tomb Raider is literally the only series that played the way it did in the industry. Nothing else remotely does. It featured compelling puzzles, hardcore platforming and obstacle traversal and an unparalleled isolation atmosphere. What they replaced it with was yet another modern checklist game that played like any number of a billion other garbage modern titles.

The anger therefore is justified: we lost a true original for yet another copy cat piece of tripe.

Further, the game blows. It fucking sucks. The best I can say is that the actual Lara Croft jumping physics are decent. But that's all I can say... because not a single moment in the game is designed to care. You have such gargantuan windows of error that you basically require no skill whatsoever to proceed in the game. There's never a clever sequence of jumping challenges. You simply jump in a direction and you're likely to make it, the game compensates for you so hard.

The level design is so straightforward and unengaging that there's no longer a sense of mystery or exploration. You're in a series trademark for adventure and puzzles and tombs, and there is almost no adventure or puzzles or tombs. Just hours of torture porn and combat arenas. The few puzzles that there are - what, like six mini pathetic challenge tombs? - are so comically simplistic that the developers might have well have popped a dunce cap on my head and called it a day for what they clearly think of gamers.

The -only- thing that improved in Tomb Raider 2013, other than the visuals, are the combat. And I mean it only improved relative to OG TR, because TR2013 still features a very unimpressive arsenal with limited relevant strategy and hilariously simple enemies who pose no challenge whatsoever. The only neat thing is the arrow rope thing to pull down ledges, and you see all there is to that after the ninth time the game employs the fucking daft strategy. The rest is fucking gruesome finishing moves with PRESS BUTTON TO WIN.

But here's the thing: Tomb Raider was never about combat, ever. So you replaced a series that had almost no combat in the games with a game that is worse in every conceivable way but moves the meter up to "mediocre combat" instead of "shit combat."

Hurray for Pyrrhic victories!

Your arguments are factually correct, but for me TR 2013 was a game I had a lot of fun with. I do like the original games, too, and I still have big box versions of TR 1 & 2. I like new and old :)
 
Posts like this from the reboot thread are depressing :(

The puzzle reminded me of how all of the puzzles TR's "tombs" seemed to revolve around really simplistic physics puzzles. That's one thing that really annoyed me with the game. Even if they were going to make the puzzles in the main campaign easy to complete, why wouldn't they give some sort of challenge to the optional tombs? You have to seek them out, so you'd think that they'd make them challenging. But nope, it's the same shit.
 
What's the best way to play TR1 on PC these days? I have the original CDs, and remember playing them with some unofficial DosBox port that had glide emulation but would have horrible slowdown and graphic corruption. And the ESC-menu would take ages to load while playing.
 
Your arguments are factually correct, but for me TR 2013 was a game I had a lot of fun with. I do like the original games, too, and I still have big box versions of TR 1 & 2. I like new and old :)

that's cool and all, whatever you enjoy, you enjoy... right? I mean I enjoy the godawful Kingdom Hearts games, so what does that say about me?

My only point is that in my opinion, this really is a case of "new game stinks, bring back the old shit." What was lost was irreplaceable in this industry because there is nothing else like it
 
Tomb Raider 3...it's merciless is all I'll say.

I'm a big fan of the Core Tomb Raiders, but this is accurate. The save system made it much more difficult to fully enjoy compared to the other entries. It's still a good game, but "merciless" is an apt adjective. Playing it on PC is probably a better idea.
 
I'm a big fan of the Core Tomb Raiders, but this is accurate. The save system made it much more difficult to fully enjoy compared to the other entries. It's still a good game, but "merciless" is an apt adjective. Playing it on PC is probably a better idea.
I agree. It's honestly my least favourite PS1 TR largely because of how frustrating the save system was. There's a lot I like about TR3 but the save system kills it for me.
 
Don't know if the topic starter is still paying attention at this point. But I believe the first Tomb Raider is worth it. It may not have the best level design or the most fluid controls of the series. But it is certainly the most interesting. There is a lot of mystery and isolation in the original. It inspires your imagination. It's rare that games leave you alone for so much time and give you just enough to look at and hear to inspire your imagination. The first few levels are difficult to get into. But there are a few really good levels like Midas's Palace and Colosseum that inspire your imagination as well as give you some solid gameplay.

Music is really good for the time too.
 
Most people dissenting aren't doing a very good job of it!

I'd really like to hear from those that prefer TR2013 over the original games. I enjoyed both of them, but I think combat was the only thing that 2013 did better than the originals from a gameplay point of view. The puzzles and platforming obviously took several steps backwards.
 
Tomb Raider 3...it's merciless is all I'll say. Similar to 2 except you have finite saves this time around, there's a sprint mechanic and there are poisonous enemies. There's also the option, once you beat TR3's intro section, to play the other sections in any order which is nice I suppose, but subtracts a little from the sense of direction.

I never beat TR3, I got stuck on the London boss. I think it was invincible and there was some trick to it. Level skipped past it but got stuck on the final boss too haha. Gonna replay it this year though, if I can find the time.
 
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