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[Renekton]

I think it is odd to welcome a paid modding scheme with such open arms without critiquing it, at least a little bit. The modding community is great because it is driven by creativity, curiosity, talent, and the love of the game. But sure, let's add corporate sponsorship and money into the mix. I'm SUUUUUURE this has never produced negative results in the past...

We won't know if we don't try. The best way to critique is to give it a chance in the sun and let the kinks come out, transparent to the community, then iron the issues out and reiterate.

"The modding community is great because it is driven by creativity, curiosity, talent, and the love of the game." <-- this is almost suggesting modders should be content with that and not get paid.

 

[foogles]

I'm fine with them setting this system up for their next game but there have got to be some rules.

But everyone's done a good job listing out good ideas, so I'll just mention my biggest one:

THE PUBLISHER AND DEVELOPER NEED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING THEIR GAME FROM CRASHING WHEN YOU RUN A BUNCH OF MODS. The overall health of the game itself is no longer the community's problem, not when companies like Bethesda would now be making money off of it. No one knows these developers' scripting systems better than they do, so they need to have people on staff that officially support the mod community on a daily basis by testing mods and ensuring that any mod list that a user tries has been validated (even if by some automated system) somehow. And STOP CRASHING TO DESKTOP WITH NO ERROR MESSAGE EVERY TIME THERE'S A SLIGHT CONFLICT BETWEEN MODS. Seriously, that's just the ultimate failure of programming ability, to not produce an error message or any clue as to what happened when an error appears, and I don't see how that can be anywhere near acceptable anymore if the publisher is going to start profiting off of mods sold. There needs to be added responsibility.

Every single time I set up a big modded Bethesda game I wind up spending many hours doing a bunch of research on well-established mod lists and running several utilities to change load orders, resolve conflicts, rewrite .esps, and try and ensure mod compatibility and it NEVER. WORKS 100%. I'm sure that I'm some noob that doesn't understand the intricacies of Wrye Bash but I'm supposed to be learning the intricacies of Bash, as in, bashing using a shield INSIDE THE GAME, not in some shitty GUI made by some guy who's desperately trying to hold a multi-million dollar company's game together with chewing gum and twigs because the developer can't be arsed to hire a dude or two.

All of that shit is almost acceptable when mods are 100% free. When they cost money? Fuck that - support them properly.

 

[EviLore]

What is this "deserve" word you are using? I agree that some modders put a lot of work into the stuff they do, and it even lands some of them jobs. But "deserve" seems rather...entitled. They bought a game and poured some love into it. And now corporations want to monetize it. Horray for modders?

That sure is an incredible context to invoke "entitled."

 

[Vallen Valiant]

We won't know if we don't try. The best way to critique is to give it a chance in the sun and let the kinks come out, transparent to the community, then iron the issues out and reiterate.

"The modding community is great because it is driven by creativity, curiosity, talent, and the love of the game." <-- this is almost suggesting modders should be content with that and not get paid.

You are assuming getting paid is what modding is about. Why not go and tell every not-for-profit organisation to start working for profit? By that argument I am sure the Red Cross can make a killing if they start charging through the nose for food and tents at Nepal's disaster area. I mean, why shouldn't the Red Cross get paid? Surely it would make no difference if the Red Cross decide that making money is the new priority of the organisation. It would not harm the purpose of the organisation at all... And think of the money! People might even be willing to sell their daughters to get medical help! Why let that opportunity pass us by, we could make a KILLING.

 

[FyreWulff]

You are assuming getting paid is what modding is about. Why not go and tell every not-for-profit organisation to start working for profit? By that argument I am sure the Red Cross can make a killing if they start charging through the nose for food and tents at Nepal's disaster area. I mean, why shouldn't the Red Cross get paid? Surely it would make no difference if the Red Cross decide that making money is the new priority of the organisation. It would not harm the purpose of the organisation at all... And think of the money! People might even be willing to sell their daughters to get medical help! Why let that opportunity pass us by, we could make a KILLING.

Comparing making game content to disaster relief... yo

 

[EviLore]

You are assuming getting paid is what modding is about. Why not go and tell every not-for-profit organisation to start working for profit? By that argument I am sure the Red Cross can make a killing if they start charging through the nose for food and tents at Nepal's disaster area. I mean, why shouldn't the Red Cross get paid? Surely it would make no difference if the Red Cross decide that making money is the new priority of the organisation. It would not harm the purpose of the organisation at all... And think of the money! People might even be willing to sell their daughters to get medical help! Why let that opportunity pass us by, we could make a KILLING.

Non-profit organizations have paid employees.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

We won't know if we don't try. The best way to critique is to give it a chance in the sun and let the kinks come out, transparent to the community, then iron the issues out and reiterate.

Oh laudy. Having flashbacks to Xbox One Defense Force circa April 2013 following Adam Orth. I can understand the sentiment. You realize, though, that the modding community (and by similar extention, the indie and demoscene) have been by their very nature a critique of gaming. It's a practical and tangible way for the fans to say "hey. Company. We like your game, but we like it more when we tweak x, y, and z".

I'm not exactly being original here. These are the same sort of arguments that've plagued other art forms for centuries (what? you sold out to a patron? Michaelangelo, what about the Renaissance Scene, bro?) but they were and still are valid questions that need to be asked. We shouldn't be so quick to let companies bulldoze our creative outlets.

I do not see any value in "trying out" the idea of monetizing that scene. I'm really puzzled (no I'm not; my unfounded hunch points to typical Valve/Gaben worship) why there is even the smallest amount of support for this idea. I get it. The carrot has been dangled. "Here lemme lift the sheets for you. Jump in. There's nothing wrong with modders getting paid. They deserve to get paid, don't you feel?"

No, "modders" as a community should not be paid. That's the whole point. It's unpaid creativity. Many modders are able to find a job because of their work, and most just get pleasure out of it from the act of creating something.

"The modding community is great because it is driven by creativity, curiosity, talent, and the love of the game." <-- this is almost suggesting modders should be content with that and not get paid.

"Modder" isn't exactly a job title. Hate to sound like the old man on the porch but get a job. Modders have gotten paid, but it wasn't because of some service doling out peanuts to them for their hard work. It was because they proved their skills and someone else saw the value of it. Tough life! You didn't get paid for every scrap of hard work you poured into something.

It is shortsighted to think that this will somehow empower modders or give them a living or enrich the modding community. Yes, money will be given out, but the long-term consequence is that you are placing a controlling stake of the modding community in the hands of the companies themselves. No one else sees the danger there? Heck, the low-level programmers who work for the companies are already frequently overworked, underpaid, and laid off once a project is completed. You think the modder's situation will be even a little bit better?

 

[Kama_1082]

Has this been posted

http://steamed.kotaku.com/some-peop...-paid-mods-are-gone-1700837400/+nathangrayson

 

[Savitar]

Bethesda will set up a system so they don't have to use steam for mod this. I fully expect the next elder scrolls game to have it.

This line from Valve said it all:

We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here.

So yeah, new games.

 

[Kalnos]

"Modder" isn't exactly a job title. Hate to sound like the old man on the porch but get a job. Modders have gotten paid, but it wasn't because of some service doling out peanuts to them for their hard work. It was because they proved their skills and someone else saw the value of it. Tough life! You didn't get paid for every scrap of hard work you poured into something.

That's because 'modder' is a general term that encompasses a whole bunch of different things. Programmers, artists, musicians, ui designers, all jobs. If something like this existed they could have a choice to monetize or to stay free (e.g. the status quo) while simultaneously proving their ability to companies. You don't sound like an old man on the porch, you just sound like a cunt.

 

[superseohyun]

Has this been posted

http://steamed.kotaku.com/some-peop...-paid-mods-are-gone-1700837400/+nathangrayson

wow valve did opened the pandora’s box......
no shit. Human are complex beings. When you put money into the equation, something that has been peaceful for 10+ years may still fuck up. Money complicate things everyday, happenning to your relatives, your friend etc. Money is great, but when not handled carefully, like the half assed approach Valve has been trying, it will have destructive effect.

Good job, valve and bethesda, I guess?

 

[FyreWulff]

No, "modders" as a community should not be paid. That's the whole point. It's unpaid creativity. Many modders are able to find a job because of their work, and most just get pleasure out of it from the act of creating something.

Have you ever made a mod?

"Modder" isn't exactly a job title. Hate to sound like the old man on the porch but get a job. Modders have gotten paid, but it wasn't because of some service doling out peanuts to them for their hard work. It was because they proved their skills and someone else saw the value of it. Tough life! You didn't get paid for every scrap of hard work you poured into something.

It's almost like people want to create their own job. You're proposing a setup/society where the only "real" gaming jobs are in big, pre-established companies. How do you propose new companies get a start in this system? You do know that companies can't afford to hire every modder ever themselves, right? Artists in other industries don't have portfolios stuffed with free work. They have portfolios filled with paid commissions because those were the ones that were successful and made them money. You are actually saying that the only companies allowed to deem what actual talent is are the ones that already exist. Why not let the community have a say in star-making?

Shit, you could potentially earn more working on a mod for Skyrim than working for Bethesda themselves. Because they're one entity that has to split their income amongst many workers, while you'd be one worker getting income from multiple entities.


Also, funny how you bring up Michelangelo as an example of a "scene". One of his greatest works, his art on the Sistine Chapel roof, was a commission. For money.

 

[yuraya]

You're going to have to explain how it is flushing money down the toilet by giving Bethesda their cut of a sale involving their property. Also just consider this for a moment. You can take option A, where you receive $300,000-$2,500,000 or you can stand by your "flushing money down the toilet" analogy and receive $100-1000.

Also, claiming Bethesda has no right to the money has 0 basis in law or reality. Just because they've made a lot of money off their game, doesn't mean they should no longer receive money from sales of the game or sales relating to the game. They didn't spend 80+ million dollars so other people could earn money off their game without them getting a share that they are legally entitled to have.

Sure, you're entitled to feel that maybe they don't deserve the money. And maybe you don't buy mods on that basis. That is your choice. But to say modders shouldn't be given the option to sell because bethesda takes a cut, is you imposing your personal restrictions on other people. People who both are willing to sell mods, and people who are willing to buy mods.

Maybe some day I'll understand the mentality of "they are too successful, they no longer deserve continued success - greedy corporations!"



They very easily deserve the chance to make their case for their mod if they choose to list it for sale. In other words, they deserve the choice to try and make money if Bethesda is willing to allow it.

I don't get what explanation you want about flushing money down the toilet? You brought up the six figure salary. Well the difference between making 100k and 400k per year is a lot. Even if you subtract valves 30% its still a lot. And I never said modders shouldn't be given the option to sell. All I said is that its a rip off. Its just my opinion. 45% is absurd. Not even unity or unreal devs charge that much when you publish game with their updated work. The fact that bethesda charges 45% for using an old game with an old engine is egregious. They ended support for the product. Most of that modding labor (if not all) has nothing to do with bethesda. Such a split basically means you are practically an employee for bethesda/zenimax. Except they aren't giving you medical/dental insurance, bonuses or any other retirement plans.

God forbid modders are allowed to negotiate their payout. Who cares right? Corporations know whats best everyone. This type of arrogance from both bethesda and valve is the reason why this entire workshop feature is dead in the ground now. They didn't think anything through. And Valve even admitted they didn't know what they were doing. They wanted the entire buffet instead they got nothing.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Having someone use the word inoculate on me is the most hilarious thing I've seen on GAF.

I just love the option of having paid mods. I really have seen a few great ones and knowing the time it takes to mod a game to be great (which I didn't when I was a kid) is humbling. Some of them were my age but spent their time creating instead.

Best part about is that no one is stopping you from making free mods, and there will be many. I just don't think it's a bad thing. Also you see, we can make a choice to support something by paying for it or not. No one is holding a gun onto your forehead for this.

Besides, it won't be the first time anyone will try to make money of one's back. I'm sure there were these arguments the first time someone tried to profit from a song cover or remix, or making a movie by adapting it from a novel.

So I don't mind spending my money on people who makes something worth having/downloading. Be it music, movies, games and even mods!

 

[Anthemios]

You are assuming getting paid is what modding is about. Why not go and tell every not-for-profit organisation to start working for profit? By that argument I am sure the Red Cross can make a killing if they start charging through the nose for food and tents at Nepal's disaster area. I mean, why shouldn't the Red Cross get paid? Surely it would make no difference if the Red Cross decide that making money is the new priority of the organisation. It would not harm the purpose of the organisation at all... And think of the money! People might even be willing to sell their daughters to get medical help! Why let that opportunity pass us by, we could make a KILLING.

This is such an extreme example not in an way analogous to games. The value of entertainment isn't compromised by the impropriety of a profit motive. It's either enjoyable or not. Whereas the credibility and viability of an organization like the Red Cross very much depends on its perceived dedication to philanthropy.

The more apt comparison, given everyone's screeching about the evils of profit sharing, would be to suggest that the Red Cross not pay for blood donations because most people don't actually donate blood for profit. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that monetary incentives discourage charitable behavior with respect to blood donations. But with entertainment, just the opposite is true.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

I'm extremely happy this has reversed, it felt wrong from the get-go and wasn't the right way to reward hard working modders.

There is a way for sure, but making it straight monetized is not it (as the PC community has stated in most part).

A clear-cut donation based system that is universal (Nexus/ModDB etc) would be amazing, I have donated to a few mods in the past, and am happy to do so to the ones that have truly benefited my gaming life. Making donating easier with a customisable split (like Humble) feels right IMO.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

That's because 'modder' is a general term that encompasses a whole bunch of different things. Programmers, artists, musicians, ui designers, all jobs. If something like this existed they could have a choice to monetize or to stay free (e.g. the status quo) while simultaneously proving their ability to companies. You don't sound like an old man on the porch, you just sound like a cunt.

I sound like a cunt because I don't want corporations to get into the modding scene. Okay. Seems like there's already a politically-correct narrative I'm supposed to be following here or something.

Have you ever made a mod?

Yes.

Made a full-length Mount & Blade mod back in the day (mostly focusing on branching dialog trees, higher-tier weapons and enemies, etc), some light tweaking of Total Annihilation and Spring, and some community maps back in the heyday of C&C, but nothing impressive. Does that validate my opinion now? Or should I go back and "do more modding" before I speak up?

It's almost like people want to create their own job.

That option is already available. No one is stopping modders from creating something and then selling it. In the case of mods, there's some trouble because that property belongs to the company. But a modder is welcome to pour that time and money into their own product, or to monetize mods via youtube, or to do what Minecraft modders have done and charge for the server privileges that hosts the mod but not the mod itself.

I am not against individuals getting paid. But I am against the idea of a pay scheme being in the hands of the companies who make the games.

It contradicts the modder/game relationship in a fundamental way. This is pretty much the crux of my argument. Do you disagree with the above?

You're proposing a setup/society where the only "real" gaming jobs are in big, pre-established companies. How do you propose new companies get a start in this system?

It's almost like there are indie company startups or something, to quote your own turn of phrase.

You do know that companies can't afford to hire every modder ever themselves, right?

Yes, and your point?

Artists in other industries don't have portfolios stuffed with free work.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA yes they absolutely, positively, completely do. It's how artists break into their respective industry, in fact.

They have portfolios filled with paid commissions because those were the ones that were successful and made them money.

You're proposing a setup/society where the only "real" artistic jobs are in big, pre-established companies. How do you propose new artists get a start in this system?

You are actually saying that the only companies allowed to deem what actual talent is are the ones that already exist. Why not let the community have a say in star-making?

I am not saying that at all. The community already has that power and has been exercising that power since the beginning.

Shit, you could potentially earn more working on a mod for Skyrim than working for Bethesda themselves. Because they're one entity that has to split their income amongst many workers, while you'd be one worker getting income from multiple entities.

They could. Or they couldn't. I don't see why the potential for income is a valid reason for why something should be done.

Unless you believe that the prospect of money supersedes all else. I don't believe that.

Also, funny how you bring up Michelangelo as an example of a "scene". One of his greatest works, his art on the Sistine Chapel roof, was a commission. For money.

The point was to be funny, but Michelangelo was not a "paid modder" in any sense of the word. The more important point was that artistic cultures have always struggled with the conflict between commissioned art and "true art", and I don't think we should so quickly shove that discussion beneath the carpet.

"This is a good thing because modders get paid. End of story" is the response I've gotten back so far. Surely we can go a bit more in-depth while discussing possible negative ramifications.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I don't get what explanation you want about flushing money down the toilet? You brought up the six figure salary. Well the difference between making 100k and 400k per year is a lot. Even if you subtract valves 30% its still a lot. And I never said modders shouldn't be given the option to sell. All I said is that its a rip off. Its just my opinion. 45% is absurd. Not even unity or unreal devs charge that much when you publish game with their updated work. The fact that bethesda charges 45% for using an old game with an old engine is egregious. They ended support for the product. Most of that modding labor (if not all) has nothing to do with bethesda. Such a split basically means you are practically an employee for bethesda/zenimax. Except they aren't giving you medical/dental insurance, bonuses or any other retirement plans.

God forbid modders are allowed to negotiate their payout. Who cares right? Corporations know whats best everyone. This type of arrogance from both bethesda and valve is the reason why this entire workshop feature is dead in the ground now. They didn't think anything through. And Valve even admitted they didn't know what they were doing. They wanted the entire buffet instead they got nothing.

My original point to the other person was that even 25% is about about a million times more than the amount he made through donations. You claimed it was flushing money down the toilet, a completely and utterly absurd analogy - that didn't need explanation but recognition of how utterly absurd it was. If any money was flushed down the toilet in that hypothetical situation, it was 4 years of lost revenue just so they don't have to share with bethesda who made it all possible in the first place.

You jumped on board to argue that bethesda shouldn't get a cut. Well, you're wrong, they deserve a cut, it is their product, you require their permission to sell. Their game that they created and most (if not all) mods are made using the tools/engine they developed to allow for modding in the first place. You can't say they have nothing to do with mods, they are extremely relevant towards mods and the labor involved. This whole "employee" thing, makes no sense. An employee relationship is not formed by listing a mod for sale. The agreement isn't even between the modder and bethesda, it is between steam and the modder. And then steam has already made a contract with bethesda to allow them to make that other contract. There are entities between the modder and bethesda, let alone some hypothetical employee relationship without benefits.

Most importantly, if you wanted to argue that modders should have more say in their cut, that is a different story to the conversation you jumped into.

 

[Renekton]

You are assuming getting paid is what modding is about. Why not go and tell every not-for-profit organisation to start working for profit? By that argument I am sure the Red Cross can make a killing if they start charging through the nose for food and tents at Nepal's disaster area. I mean, why shouldn't the Red Cross get paid? Surely it would make no difference if the Red Cross decide that making money is the new priority of the organisation. It would not harm the purpose of the organisation at all... And think of the money! People might even be willing to sell their daughters to get medical help! Why let that opportunity pass us by, we could make a KILLING.

1) Comparing game mod to disaster relief, come on.

2) People setting up organizations have the choice to be non-profit or for-profit. Modders don't have much choice in this regard. You don't want them to have one?

No, "modders" as a community should not be paid. That's the whole point. It's unpaid creativity. Many modders are able to find a job because of their work, and most just get pleasure out of it from the act of creating something.

"Many" <-- what data do we have? How many do we know where able to parlay this portfolio to fruitful careers? Some could be still at Waffle House for all we know.

It is narrow-minded, selfish and presumptious to decide for modders what they should get out of their work and what they hope their niche can turn out to be.

I sound like a cunt because I don't want corporations to get into the modding scene. Okay.

Because of not wanting modders to have a choice how to get paid for their work.

 

[Anthemios]

Honestly, it's as if the most extreme antagonism towards monetization in this thread comes from people who have never heard of a licensing agreement. Modding can assume many forms, none of which are mutually exclusive.

It can be a hobby.
It can be a resume building activity.
It can be charity.

It can also be a non-exclusive contract between the developer, Valve and the modder to license specific IP rights. But for some reason this last category is so offensive that people wish it never existed. Remarkable.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

"Many" <-- what data do we have? How many do we know where able to parlay this portfolio to fruitful careers? Some could be still at Waffle House for all we know..

Off the top of my head, just thinking about some of the LittleBigPlanet modders who got jobs to work on LBP2, or the folks who made Counterstrike (a mod) and then got careers out of it (not every single one of them, I'm sure).

It didn't take much googling to find a recent article on it:
http://www.develop-online.net/news/how-modding-can-land-you-a-career-in-games/0201739

It is narrow-minded, selfish and presumptious to decide for modders what they should get out of their work and what they hope their niche can turn out to be.

I'm not deciding anything. It has already been decided that they don't get paid for their mod work. What I'm arguing against is a system where the mod community is in the gaming company's back pocket. You seem to feel that there's some social injustice being finally rectified here. On this point we disagree.

But in another respect, I do agree: It is narrow-minded, selfish, and presumptious to place a monetary power over the modding community and put that in the hands of gaming corporations.***

What happens when certain modders - paid ones - get preferential treatment on the sites that host the content? Oh, say goodbye to third-party modding sites, by the way (at least, for any games that support this). But what happens? Does that mod just magically happen to find its way to the top of "most popular mods" lists? Does the company promote it? Does "SkyUI" come out in Elder Scrolls 6, right at launch, as a Bethesda-sponsored mod for $4.99? Sounds about right to me. Certain modders benefit but the majority will be pushed into obscurity. It's just a way to further monetize the mod scene. Valve Corporation has already been doing it for years so I guess it's all good...

Because of not wanting modders to have a choice how to get paid for their work.

You actually have this completely backwards. Money comes from customers. Customers buy the things they want. It's not like gaming companies have modders in a basement somewhere locked up doing free work. This is pro bono. Free. For fun. For the pleasure of doing it. Take your pick, but there's no product in there. Each and every modder has the choice to make the mod or to do something else. Maybe go to the park and meet a new friend, or learn chess, or whatever. There's nothing at all that is forcing modders to pick apart a game and change it.

As such, why should they be paid? I'm talking about basic business/economy here. Why should modders be paid? On the merit of the quality of their work? Yes, in an ideal world they should be paid for that. But that still doesn't answer the question of why a pay scheme should be placed in the hands of the corporations who make the games.

***EDIT: might as well further explain, for those who've decided to read my post. What happens when a voluntary community gets a bit less voluntary because money got involved? Does it thrive? Consider those who've gotten jobs from the mods they've created. From the company's perspective, why hire anyone when you can pay them a portion of that salary for their work with no liability and none of the stipulations that go along with hiring an employee? Paid mods would greatly reduce the number of people getting hired from the mods they created, while limiting them to a marginal existence making peanuts on fees from paid mods. It benefits the company and it benefits a very small segment of modders while cutting out a huge portion of the community with one fell swoop. And this is good for anyone how?

How would it affect gamers? Well, for certain you won't be getting any more mega-mods. You won't be getting cross-modder help trying to make such-and-such mod work with another mod. Goodbye to super-mods in Elder Scrolls or Minecraft that include all the extra weapons, and the UI tweaks, and the textures, etc that were made by other modders. Say goodbye to those little fan-made tweaks to existing mods that make them a little bit better. It's all paid, and other mods are your competitors. Instead of a collective spirit, you have a competitive spirit. Tell me where this is not the case. Show me an artistic medium where artists DON'T compete against one another once money gets involved. I'm sorry, but that is reality.

I am offering nothing profound here. This is a very straightforward history lesson. This is how these sort of things tend to go. Tell me again why paid modding should be under the control of big companies?

 

[StrangeTaco]

Has this been posted

http://steamed.kotaku.com/some-peop...-paid-mods-are-gone-1700837400/+nathangrayson

Ouch, sounds like even with the paid mods removed Valve may have done some serious damage to Skyrim's modding community.

 

[Pancakes]

Ouch, sounds like even with the paid mods removed Valve may have done some serious damage to Skyrim's modding community.

This conversation needed to happen sooner or later but this is one can of worms that should not have been opened on an existing modding community.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

This conversation needed to happen sooner or later but this is one can of worms that should not have been opened on an existing modding community.

Oh it should. Better it being on a 4 year game than a new one like the new Fallout.

 

[Future PhaZe]

im shocked people thought modders wouldn't be upset by this

 

[Vallen Valiant]

im shocked people thought modders wouldn't be upset by this

Modders are free to be upset. Modders are free to pull mods and go elsewhere. That's always been the case. I don't care if they feel hard done by, if they want to quit no one would notice. The thing with mods, is that it is expected that the modder could always vanish and never be seen again. That's normal. That's just what happens in a voluntary community.

 

[Kama_1082]

Ouch, sounds like even with the paid mods removed Valve may have done some serious damage to Skyrim's modding community.

I don't blame the modders one bit for withholding their mods to only trusted friends. The y believe the the community fucked them.

 

[Vallen Valiant]

I don't blame the modders one bit for withholding their mods to only trusted friends. The y believe the the community fucked them.

What is there to blame? If they don't want to do this anymore no one would force them to continue. I rather a disheartened modder quit than soldiering on against his will.

 

[Savitar]

If some of them want to quit let them quit.

Others will simply shine in their place.

 

[yuraya]

My original point to the other person was that even 25% is about about a million times more than the amount he made through donations. You claimed it was flushing money down the toilet, a completely and utterly absurd analogy - that didn't need explanation but recognition of how utterly absurd it was. If any money was flushed down the toilet in that hypothetical situation, it was 4 years of lost revenue just so they don't have to share with bethesda who made it all possible in the first place.

You jumped on board to argue that bethesda shouldn't get a cut. Well, you're wrong, they deserve a cut, it is their product, you require their permission to sell. Their game that they created and most (if not all) mods are made using the tools/engine they developed to allow for modding in the first place. You can't say they have nothing to do with mods, they are extremely relevant towards mods and the labor involved. This whole "employee" thing, makes no sense. An employee relationship is not formed by listing a mod for sale. The agreement isn't even between the modder and bethesda, it is between steam and the modder. And then steam has already made a contract with bethesda to allow them to make that other contract. There are entities between the modder and bethesda, let alone some hypothetical employee relationship without benefits.

Most importantly, if you wanted to argue that modders should have more say in their cut, that is a different story to the conversation you jumped into.

And look where it got them. 3 days and the whole program gets shutdown. Their stupid agreements with each other led to failure. Instead of communicating with the community they just prematurely failed. Valve and Bethesda didn't know what they were doing. The modders are working for 25 cent on the dollar with this system. You can spin it however you want with ownership, breakdown and rights but thats not what it comes down to in the end. Modders are making bethesda money. There is a relationship.

You don't speak for all modders and neither does valve/bethesda. You just care about modders getting paid any little amount instead of being paid fairly for their work/talent. Bottom line is modders should have a say in the split. And in my opinion modders should be paid more than everyone else in this case. These aren't just some free mods anymore. They have to sell this stuff to people. And after selling them they have to constantly update the mods which creates even more labor. There is a lot of work involved.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

What is there to blame? If they don't want to do this anymore no one would force them to continue. I rather a disheartened modder quit than soldiering on against his will.

You realize they aren't disheartened from doing their craft, they are disheartened by the "well, fuck off" attitude of the "community" you are championing.

 

[remz]

Modders are free to be upset. Modders are free to pull mods and go elsewhere. That's always been the case. I don't care if they feel hard done by, if they want to quit no one would notice. The thing with mods, is that it is expected that the modder could always vanish and never be seen again. That's normal. That's just what happens in a voluntary community.

I think you'd notice when your mods stop working and no one is there to fix it.

 

[Vallen Valiant]

You realize they aren't disheartened from doing their craft, they are disheartened by the "well, fuck off" attitude of the "community" you are championing.

And? If they are no longer willing to work for free then what difference does it make? They don't want to do it, fine. Stop. That is their right.

I think you'd notice when your mods stop working and no one is there to fix it.

That happens all the time. When it occurs I just uninstall the mod. You act like this is new, don't tell me you don't play the game?

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

You realize they aren't disheartened from doing their craft, they are disheartened by the "well, fuck off" attitude of the "community" you are championing.

Correction: a corporation said "you finally want to be paid, modders? Heeeeeere! Jump into bed. We've kept it warm. You can get 25% of the money for all your hard work *snicker snicker*"

And then the customers - the ones who pay for the game - said "Uh, hell to the no".

Then the company literally said "Ok. we'll stop. We don't know what we're doing".

And then some modders got angry. Because although they weren't willing to chase their own customers, the prospect of money being given to them for work they're already doing was too much. This - alone - should be evidence of why the system shouldn't be put into place. Even the tease of it, the mere prospect of it is enough to poison modders against something they've loved doing for decades.

 

[superseohyun]

I think you'd notice when your mods stop working and no one is there to fix it.

since Bethesda already stops updating skryim, he probably wont notice in most cases.

 

[Savitar]

Correction: a corporation said "you finally want to be paid, modders? Heeeeeere! Jump into bed. We've kept it warm. You can get 25% of the money for all your hard work *snicker snicker*"

And then the customers - the ones who pay for the game - said "Uh, hell to the no".

Then the company literally said "Ok. we'll stop. We don't know what we're doing".

And then some modders got angry. Because although they weren't willing to chase their own customers, the prospect of money being given to them for work they're already doing was too much. This - alone - should be evidence of why the system shouldn't be put into place. Even the tease of it, the mere prospect of it is enough to poison modders against something they've loved doing for decades.

Yeah pretty much this.

 

[Dunkley]

Has this been posted

http://steamed.kotaku.com/some-peop...-paid-mods-are-gone-1700837400/+nathangrayson

So unless they are removing donation links I don't see how any of these people complaining could just not opt for donating to their favorite modders like before.

And yes, I read Edhelsereg's post, and honestly if donations are as low as he says then really that isn't something magically going to be fixed by introducing paid mods and backing it up by complaining about how "people not knowing how much work it takes".

I mean sure I would be upset too, but only if I really entered this community expecting any payment in return for things I am doing out of my own passion. It's like volunteering for work and then complaining about not getting paid.

You realize they aren't disheartened from doing their craft, they are disheartened by the "well, fuck off" attitude of the "community" you are championing.

Which, saying this as a hobby artist, is a good reason to quit a community. If their craft matters to them but they can't work with the community, they can always continue doing their craft for themselves.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

Modders are free to be upset. Modders are free to pull mods and go elsewhere. That's always been the case. I don't care if they feel hard done by, if they want to quit no one would notice. The thing with mods, is that it is expected that the modder could always vanish and never be seen again. That's normal. That's just what happens in a voluntary community.

What you describe is a really shitty way of doing things. People are so deathly afraid of change they don't even see the status quo for what it is. I think the prospect of professional modders is an exciting idea. People already come up with amazing stuff just for the fun of it. Imagine what kind of output we'd see from the top modders if they were able to do it full time.

 

[Vallen Valiant]

What you describe is a really shitty way of doing things. People are so deathly afraid of change they don't even see the status quo for what it is. I think the prospect of professional modders is an exciting idea. People already come up with amazing stuff just for the fun of it. Imagine what kind of output we'd see from the top modders if they were able to do it full time.

It is not shitty, it is how TES mods became what it is today. We already have modders doing this full time; they are called videogame developers. Modders are not the same as videogame developers, you can be both but the two tasks are different.

 

[Savitar]

What you describe is a really shitty way of doing things. People are so deathly afraid of change they don't even see the status quo for what it is. I think the prospect of professional modders is an exciting idea. People already come up with amazing stuff just for the fun of it. Imagine what kind of output we'd see from the top modders if they were able to do it full time.

And what your saying is what a good many people rejected. They have to pay for a game, they pay for various DLC which is already crazy enough. Take a look at the new Batmans DLC for example. Now mods too. People feel like they are being charged enough as it is, nickeled and dimed. Gamers are paying more and more and some times for less and less it feels like.

As much as modders can feel free to try and get money for what they do gamers have every right to outright reject it.

Want to support mods? Do so.

Don't want too? Then don't.

 

[Anthemios]

And then some modders got angry. Because although they weren't willing to chase their own customers, the prospect of money being given to them for work they're already doing was too much. This - alone - should be evidence of why the system shouldn't be put into place. Even the tease of it, the mere prospect of it is enough to poison modders against something they've loved doing for decades.

What a twisted argument. You make it sound as though you're just being a good samaritan, protecting modders from the corrupting influence of money so they don't hate their hobby. Or perhaps it's more straightforward: you don't want to pay for things if you can avoid it. I suppose that's a rational view, but be honest.

 

[Kalnos]

What a twisted argument. You make it sound as though you're just being a good samaritan, protecting modders from the corrupting influence of money so they don't hate their hobby. Or perhaps it's more straightforward: you don't want to pay for things if you can avoid it. I suppose that's a rational view, but be honest.

Not to mention it's lame to call it 'poison'. Some of the modders (Chesko) have seemingly taken a step back because the community literally harassed them over their decision to charge. Guess that's still Valve/Bethesda's fault for poisoning the pure art of modding.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

What a twisted argument. You make it sound as though you're just being a good samaritan, protecting modders from the corrupting influence of money so they don't hate their hobby. Or perhaps it's more straightforward: you don't want to pay for things if you can avoid it. I suppose that's a rational view, but be honest.

It's neither of those things strictly, but a bit of both.

Yes, I do want the mod community to remain separate from corporations. I've enjoyed mods for decades and I'd still like to see the scene thrive.

No, I don't want to pay for things if I can avoid it, but it's more than that. I don't want the payment scheme to be in the hands of the company that makes the games, or worse, a distribution service that doesn't even seem to make games anymore (Valve Corp).

This issue is not black-and-white. You're not either pro-paid-mods or anti-modders-ungrateful-swine. You're not either pro-freedom-of-art or corporate-controlled-mod-enslavers. There are shades of discussion here, but you seem to be stuck in the above mindset.

I'm cool with modders getting paid, even if it's in unconventional ways. I mean, modders DO have plenty of ways to get paid which have already been discussed in this thread, but I'm all for new ways and new ideas.

What I'm against is the method of giving modders money being in the sole hands of the game companies. I'm against the modders getting a trifling 25% of the profits (if keeping 75% of a modder's profit doesn't set off alarm bells, I don't know what would. It's like people worship Valve or something...)

Not to mention it's lame to call it 'poison'. Some of the modders (Chesko) have seemingly taken a step back because the community literally harassed them over their decision to charge. Guess that's still Valve/Bethesda's fault for poisoning the pure art of modding.

Then what else would you call it? The end result is poisoning the community. Valve/Bethesda publicly proposed an idea (did they go to community leaders? Did they approach the modders? Did they do this in private? No. They said "we are the kings of this domain and you should be grateful for our proposed system".) and then the customers said "no". The modders didn't propose the idea and create the drama. The customers didn't propose the idea and create the drama. Valve Corp did.

You think some modders like Chesko had a bad experience? Hahaha oh boy. Then they should be grateful this fell apart. Imagine the nagging and harassment they'd get if mods were paid and perhaps the mod didn't live up to expectations, or a feature wasn't included, or the mod wasn't compatible with another mod? If that's why Chesko has taken a step back, good for them. This was a good lesson in basic business: not every decision to go after money is a good one and it can upset your consumers. I hope Chesko learns that lesson well.

 

[Forsaken82]

so what happens now? do they replace it with anything tweaked, or just go back to business as usual and put this behind them?

I hope they do replace it with something.

I disliked the anti-consumer movement that this concept seemed to lean towards, however I am all for the modder receiving a share of the profits for the work that they do, especially in cases where months or years go into developing something completely unique. I think the problem was not enough thought put into the idea and it spiraled out of control.

They just need to figure out a way to make premium mods consumer friendly.

 

[cdyhybrid]

They just need to figure out a way to make premium mods consumer friendly.

It's simple: cut Bethesda out of it.

They'll never go for it though, so good luck with that.

 

[FyreWulff]

Modders are not the same as videogame developers, you can be both but the two tasks are different.

Making game content is not game development now.

People winning gold medals in the mental gymnastic olympics.

 

[Vallen Valiant]

Making game content is not game development now.

People winning gold medals in the mental gymnastic olympics.

The difference between a painter and someone who paints. This isn't just semantics.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

And? If they are no longer willing to work for free then what difference does it make? They don't want to do it, fine. Stop. That is their right.

I think your attitude shows zero gratitude to the individuals who put in the work for you to enjoy. And that disgusts me. But at least you're being honest.

The difference between a painter and someone who paints. This isn't just semantics.

No, you're being ridiculous. Someone who works on mods for a living is a game developer as much as a developer for a full standalone product. There are degrees of professionalism from amateur to professional that separate the hobby modder from someone who takes it a lot more seriously and is a lot more experienced.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Non-profit organizations have paid employees.

Can we have Modbot reply this to every post that contains the word non-profit organization. I swear to god, everytime...

 

[Vallen Valiant]

I think your attitude shows zero gratitude to the individuals who put in the work for you to enjoy. And that disgusts me. But at least you're being honest.



No, you're being ridiculous. Someone who works on mods for a living is a game developer as much as a developer for a full standalone product. There are degrees of professionalism from amateur to professional that separate the hobby modder from someone who takes it a lot more seriously and is a lot more experienced.

I give all the gratitude I can. But since they don't want to do it any more it is clear we don't have a relationship with each other in the community as it stands. I don't demand anyone to work for free, if they refuse they can stop. I never begrudge anyone for that.