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Crazy that this is happening in 2017

In Pakistan, a court in Punjab province has sentenced a 30-year-old man to death over posting allegedly blasphemous content on social media.

Prosecutor Shafiq Qureshi confirmed the sentence against Taimoor Raza, according to The Associated Press and Reuters. It's the country's "harshest handed down yet for a cyber-crime related offence," according to Amnesty International.

Raza is a member of Pakistan's Shiite minority, his brother Waseem Abbas told The Guardian, and added that Raza inadvertently ended up in conversation with a government official on Facebook. "My brother indulged in a sectarian debate on Facebook with a person, who we later come to know, was a [counterterrorism department] official with the name of Muhammad Usman," he said.

It's not clear exactly what Raza said in his posts. The New York Times reports that he was initially charged "under a section of the penal code that punishes derogatory remarks about other religious personalities for up to two years."

But the newspaper reports that during the investigation, he was later charged under a law "specifically on derogatory acts against the Prophet Muhammad, which carries the death penalty."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...es-man-to-death-for-blasphemy-on-social-media

 

[Chuckie]

All blasphemy laws need to fucking die.

 

[Azoor]

A lot of Muslims will defend this unfortunately. Islam needs reform.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

If Muhammad feels insulted, he can damn well file a complaint himself.

 

[MetalliCabombination]

Someone needs to put an end to this blashpemy crap

 

[Sinfamy]

It must suck having a God who can't defend himself.

 

[azyless]

Oh, another thread for people to come say blasphemy laws have nothing to do with religion.

Pakistan doesn't seem to be on a good path sadly.

 

[BocoDragon]

TBH, this would be true even in the earliest Islamic societies. Treason is not tolerated in this ideology. It's considered the one proper model for state organization and dissent is punishable.

 

[cromofo]

Well, that's the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for ya.


Muhammad was an asswipe, whatchu gonna do Pakistan?

 

[Osahi]

Ah, blasphemy, laws to protect an all powerful being of getting its feelings hurt. Your beliefs in yiur God must be really insecure if you need to kill people who think differently

 

[kmax]

A lot of Muslims will defend this unfortunately. Islam needs reform.

The countries that are backwards need reform. Many Muslim-majority countries were actually a lot more progressive than what they are now.

These countries need to step up their game since it's embarrassing that many of them are actually moving backwards from where they were before.

 

[Always-honest]

Goddamn

 

[thetrin]

The countries that are backwards need reform. Many Muslim-majority countries were actually a lot more progressive than what they are now.

These countries need to step up their game since it's embarrassing that many of them are actually moving backwards from where they were before.

Yep. Iran is a perfect example of this.

 

[Dead Man]

TBH, this would be true even in the earliest Islamic societies. Treason is not tolerated in this ideology. It's considered the one proper model for state organization and dissent is punishable.

So fucking what?

 

[Azoor]

The countries that are backwards need reform. Many Muslim-majority countries were actually a lot more progressive than what they are now.

These countries need to step up their game since it's embarrassing that many of them are actually moving backwards from where they were before.

What does these photos supposed to tell me? Wearing western like clothing doesn't mean you won't have some regressive ideas in your mind.And I would like to remind you that just because people who did this were Muslims doesn't mean that it's okay in Islam to do it.

I was a Muslim for more than 20 years and Islam doesn't look kindly to apostates.


Edit: oh and by the way, you know why they were more progressive? Because they stayed away from Sharia law for most of its legislation.

 

[Master_Funk]

All of this news as well as the honour killing epidemic makes me ashamed to be of Pakistani descent.

And yes, most Muslim countries have regressed significantly in terms of tolerance and beliefs. A few hundred years ago, from what I've read, many Islamic counties were much more tolerant and accepting of different ideologies.

Extremist ideology unfortunately has completely taken that over in the last century.

 

[Azoor]

All of this news as well as the honour killing epidemic makes me ashamed to be of Pakistani descent.

Don't, I know many Pakistanis who want reform, but they're not the majority unfortunately.

 

[Contica]

Why are gods and prophets such fragile snowflakes? It doesn't instill confidence. I wouldn't put my faith in a god that throws a hissy fit and sends you to hell every tim you look at him funny.

 

[cameron]

The NYT article has a bit more info.

NYT: Pakistan, in a First, Sentences Man to Death Over Blasphemy on Social Media

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — An antiterrorism court in Pakistan has sentenced a Shiite man to death for committing blasphemy in posts on social media. The man, Taimoor Raza, 30, was found guilty of making derogatory remarks about the Prophet Muhammad, his wives and others on Facebook and WhatsApp.

Mr. Raza was sentenced to death on Saturday by Judge Bashir Ahmed in Punjab Province. It was the first time anyone has been given the death penalty for blasphemy on social media in Pakistan. Mr. Raza can appeal the sentence.

Counterterrorism officials arrested Mr. Raza at a bus station in Bahawalpur in April 2016. He was accused of having blasphemous content on his mobile phone, and officials said he had been showing the content to people at the bus station when he was arrested. Muhammad Shafique Qureshi, the prosecutor in the case, said that the court had found Mr. Raza guilty of blasphemy and that he had used Facebook and WhatsApp to spread the content.

”The forensic report of his mobile phone showed that he had committed blasphemy in at least 3,000 posts," Mr. Qureshi said. The police also said that at the time of arrest, 20,000 Iranian rials, or about 60 cents, was recovered from Mr. Raza.

Mr. Qureshi said that during police interrogations, Mr. Raza confessed to being a member of a banned Shiite group, Sipah-e-Muhammad. The organization was engaged in a deadly retaliatory campaign of violence against radical Sunni groups before being outlawed in 2001 along with the Sunni militant group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi.

Mr. Raza was initially charged under a section of the penal code that punishes derogatory remarks about other religious personalities for up to two years. Later, during the course of the investigations, he was charged under a law that focuses specifically on derogatory acts against the Prophet Muhammad, which carries a death penalty.

Mr. Raza's sentence comes amid a widening crackdown against blasphemous content on social media, especially Facebook and Twitter. This year, the country's interior minister asked Facebook to identify people suspected of committing blasphemy so that they could be prosecuted.

And from The Guardian, no one has been executed by the state for blasphemy, but several people are on death row:

While Raza is the first person sentenced to death for blasphemy on social media, several others are on death row for alleged blasphemy in public. Among them is Asia Bibi, a Christian woman convicted in 2010 after a row with two Muslim women in a village in Punjab. With a long-awaited final appeal adjourned, Bibi is still in solitary confinement.

Four people were sentenced to death for blasphemy last year, according to the HRCP.

 

[Carnby]

What does these photos supposed to tell me?.

Who knows. Especially when the first picture was taken in 1963, before the "liberation".

 

[NoblesseOblige]

All blasphemy laws need to fucking die.

A death sentence I can support.

 

[BocoDragon]

So fucking what?

So fucking what?

I don't have an agenda actually, I was just explaining the view of blasphemy in the basics of Islamic history because I study Islamic history. Summary: treason against the prophet and against Islam is considered not good in Islamic societies, and Pakistan has theological ground to stand on.

 

[orochi91]

I've noticed several of these stories keep coming out of that Punjab province.

There was that one Punjabi Governor that got shot to death when he sided with that Christian woman accused of blasphemy.

The countries that are backwards need reform. Many Muslim-majority countries were actually a lot more progressive than what they are now.

These countries need to step up their game since it's embarrassing that many of them are actually moving backwards from where they were before.

Lol, what?

In what ways are any of the people in these photos progressive? What do you know about their views on society and religion? Is it because they wore western clothes?

Not only that, those pics are misleading as hell considering only a westernized minority within urban centers and University campuses ever dressed like that; vast majority of the country was completely "traditional" and orthodox at the time.

 

[MisterFalcon]

No one has been executed by the state for blasphemy, but several people are on death row:

People are usually murdered by angry mobs or their bodyguard before it would ever come to an execution.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Anyone who tells you about supposedly progressive Muslim countries is lying out their ass.

I was born and raised in Malaysia, a so called moderate Muslim country. Yo, we might wear western clothes and watch Hollywood movies, but gay sex is still a criminal offence there and apostasy is illegal

 

[kmax]

What does these photos supposed to tell me? Wearing western like clothing doesn't mean you won't have some regressive ideas in your mind.And I would like to remind you that just because people who did this were Muslims doesn't mean that it's okay in Islam to do it.

I was a Muslim for more than 20 years and Islam doesn't look kindly to apostates.

I'll explain it to you. It has been demonstrated that Muslim majority countries can live peacefully with a progressive approach since history has proven that to be the case. Exactly how are you going to reform a religion that is being practised differently around the world? That's simply not going to happen.

What needs to happen is that the countries that have these barbaric laws need to change, and that change can only come from within. Many of them were progressive before, so they can become progressive again. If they do, there is a good possibility that other countries will pressure their governments to follow suit.

 

[Chuckie]

Anyone who tells you about supposedly progressive Muslim countries is lying out their ass.

I was born and raised in Malaysia, a so called moderate Muslim country. Yo, we might wear western clothes and watch Hollywood movies, but gay sex is still a criminal offence there and apostasy is illegal

Indonesia used to be quite moderate.


....used to be

 

[Kurtofan]

these guys have nukes

 

[Azoor]

I'll explain it to you. It has been demonstrated that Muslim majority countries can live peacefully with a progressive approach since history has proven that to be the case. Exactly how are you going to reform a religion that is being practised differently around the world? That's simply not going to happen.

What needs to happen is that the countries that have these barbaric laws need to change, and that change can only come from within. Many of them were progressive before, so they can become progressive again. If they do, there is a good possibility that other countries will pressure their governments to follow suit.

I never said that Muslims cannot be peaceful, I said that a lot of them subscribe to this barbaric way of thinking. These countries needs to get away from Sharia law and embrace a more secular set rules. Yes, not all Muslims are violent who want to harm nonbelievers, but that was never my argument.

 

[Joe Condor]

Don't, I know many Pakistanis who want reform, but they're not the majority unfortunately.

Well that could be because that's a dangerous opinion to have in that region and reformations perceived against Islam are forbidden. There's a verse that says that the religion has been perfected which is used against any attempts of reformation by many Muslims.

 

[sazzy]

Special thanks to Saudi Arabia for exporting its filth beyond its borders.

 

[vordhosbn]

What a way to go out.

But I don't understand how this law works, what if he apologised and retracted whatever he did..would the death sentence be dismissed?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I'll explain it to you. It has been demonstrated that Muslim majority countries can live peacefully with a progressive approach since history has proven that to be the case. Exactly how are you going to reform a religion that is being practised differently around the world? That's simply not going to happen.

What needs to happen is that the countries that have these barbaric laws need to change, and that change can only come from within. Many of them were progressive before, so they can become progressive again. If they do, there is a good possibility that other countries will pressure their governments to follow suit.

I think what you're missing here is that modern interpretations of the religion are highly resistant to change or debate, thanks to laws like these.

Hard to have a reasoned discussion on religious reform and moderation if a mob burns your house down and tears your body to pieces. And if they don't get you, you go to jail.

Religious protections have to be written into your constitution, otherwise laws like these are ripe for abuse and/or mob rule. Not to mention sectarian violence from groups that feel marginalized from whatever the "official" religion is.

 

[Azoor]

Special thanks to Saudi Arabia for exporting its filth beyond its borders.

Iran helped to radicalise people too for the sake of their "revolution".

 

[Breads]

Theocracies are a mistake.

 

[kmax]

Lol, what?

In what ways are any of the people in these photos progressive? What do you know about their views on society and religion? Is it because they wore western clothes?

Not only that, those pics are misleading as hell considering only a westernized minority within urban centers and University campuses ever dressed like that; vast majority of the country was completely "traditional" and orthodox at the time.

Iran was a lot more secular than after the Iranian revolution. Sure, there were many problems still at that time. The anti-western movement grew and people became more disenfranchised - but what is also true is that life was seemingly more easy going during those times under the Shah. The Iranian Revolution changed the game politically.

 

[Raonak]

Religion having any input into the laws of the country is always fucked.

 

[Monocle]

Killing people for pretend crimes is flat out evil. The concept of blasphemy is utter hogwash invented by people who want to use fear to suppress dissenting opinions. Fuck every aspect of this.

 

[orochi91]

Iran was a lot more secular than after the Iranian revolution. Sure, there were many problems still at that time. The anti-western movement grew and people became more disenfranchised - but what is also true is that life was seemingly more easy going during those times under the Shah. The Iranian Revolution changed the game politically.

Fair enough, I'll agree to that.

 

[kmax]

I think what you're missing here is that modern interpretations of the religion are highly resistant to change or debate, thanks to laws like these.

Hard to have a reasoned discussion on religious reform and moderation if a mob burns your house down and tears your body to pieces. And if they don't get you, you go to jail.

Religious protections have to be written into your constitution, otherwise laws like these are ripe for abuse and/or mob rule. Not to mention sectarian violence from groups that feel marginalized from whatever the "official" religion is.

I agree. That's why it's important that these countries change from within. Ever since the Western world introduced a separation between church and state, we've become more advanced. It's not like the religions changed. The dogma and the scripture are still the same. It's we that changed, and I think that it's possible for these countries could have a similar effect on each other. Since Islam is so political, it's much harder for reform to happen as the affinity to the way of life is incredibly strong.

No one of us wants to see these places be in the state that they are. I think it's important that the people there have that discussion though. How they do that is the question.

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman]

Yet another reminder of how incredibly lucky anyone born in a secular country is.

 

[Chairman Yang]

No one of us wants to see these places be in the state that they are. I think it's important that the people there have that discussion though. How they do that is the question.

Unfortunately, I think discussion has become basically impossible in Pakistan. It's not just the government--a significant segment of the population will gladly take it on themselves to slaughter blasphemers, apostates, or religious minorities. What room is there for discussion?

It's a totalitarian country at this point. Not because of the state, but because of a strange social totalitarianism, driven by religion and enforced by the people.

 

[Krombopulos_Michael]

Unfortunately, I think discussion has become basically impossible in Pakistan. It's not just the government--a significant segment of the population will gladly take it on themselves to slaughter blasphemers, apostates, or religious minorities. What room is there for discussion?

It's a totalitarian country at this point. Not because of the state, but because of a strange social totalitarianism, driven by religion and enforced by the people.

What do we do then? I think encouraging tolerant Muslims to reform the religion from within is really the only option. They certainly aren't going to listen to western voices. I don't think violence would make anything better either, so what other options are there?

 

[lucebuce12]

Iran was a lot more secular than after the Iranian revolution. Sure, there were many problems still at that time. The anti-western movement grew and people became more disenfranchised - but what is also true is that life was seemingly more easy going during those times under the Shah. The Iranian Revolution changed the game politically.

The sad thing about it is that Pakistan was almost exactly the same way. From articles and pictures I've seen of decades ago to stories told by older people I know, Pakistan used to be a pretty damn progressive place (in the cities, at least).

Airlines and restaurants could serve alcohol, women went where ever they pleased with no issues, Western literature was highly promoted, education was very western focused. We encouraged foreigners to come to our lands, people dressed however the fuck they want.

Most people agree it's when General Zia-ul-Haq took over that things started going down the shitter.

 

[Menchi]

Again more evidence that religion as an institution is disgusting and needs to be excised from any part of civilisation. Religion in itself is fine, having a belief in something, formed on your own convictions personal to you and which impedes no one else. The moment it becomes an institution, it forms things like this that peddle hatred for not following things in the "right way"

 

[waveuponwave]

I think in a lot of Muslim majority countries there was a huge divide between cities (pretty secular and liberal) and the rural regions (traditional, strict religion). What happened in the last decades (in addition to all the political upheavel) is that a lot of people moved to the cities from the rural parts for jobs and that changed the city populations and made them a lot more traditional

 

[UrbanRats]

All blasphemy laws need to fucking die.

Capital punishment too, while you're at it.

 

[MisterFalcon]

I think in a lot of Muslim majority countries there was a huge divide between cities (pretty secular and liberal) and the rural regions (traditional, strict religion). What happened in the last decades (in addition to all the political upheavel) is that a lot of people moved to the cities from the rural parts for jobs and that changed the city populations and made them a lot more traditional

It also turned out, against all sorts of predictions, that technology helps radical ideologies far more then it hurts them.

 

[Chairman Yang]

What do we do then? I think encouraging tolerant Muslims to reform the religion from within is really the only option. They certainly aren't going to listen to western voices. I don't think violence would make anything better either, so what other options are there?

I don't know what the solution is. Suppression of Islam by the government can work--like in Turkey while secularists still had power, or China in Xinjiang--but then it's just swapping one sort of oppression for another.

Encouraging tolerant Muslims to reform the religion seems to be doing nothing. In countries like Pakistan, genuine reformists are simply silenced, and will rarely speak up unless they have a death wish. In the West, reformists like Maajid Nawaz are mocked or ignored by a large part of the Muslim community.

 

[Azoor]

Capital punishment too, while you're at it.

Yeah, capital punishment is immoral IMO.