ReplacementPelican
Member
'Islam' as in, the entire religion of Islam, needs to reform because of Pakistan? No, Pakistan needs to reform their laws to exclude dumb shit like blasphemy.
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Pakistan Sentences Man To Death For 'Blasphemy' On Social Media
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Red Liquorice
Member
We've got a long way to go, a LONG way to go. Sigh.
No, it needs reform because there are laws in the Scripture of Islam that are barbaric and Pakistan is following them.
Laevateinn
Member
Muslims can't display pictures of Muhammed for fear of turning him into a god yet insulting him results in the death penalty.
Religion is a mistake.
Religion is a mistake.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Everyone shirks their responsibility for this shit, but so many are responsible.
The moderates are responsible.
The blind nationalists are responsible
Those who support weaker blasphemy laws or lese majeste laws in other states are responsible.
It all contributes to an atmosphere than builds and allows this to happen.
Special mention to Ireland's blasphemy law (constitutionally required, though was off the books for years, brought back by a government because technically they had to, and due to be dismantled in the next referendum) which has been directly quoted by Pakistani politicians as a modern western blasphemy law, which makes theirs ok.
Anyone who held up the repeal of this is also responsible for this mans death sentence.
The moderates are responsible.
The blind nationalists are responsible
Those who support weaker blasphemy laws or lese majeste laws in other states are responsible.
It all contributes to an atmosphere than builds and allows this to happen.
Special mention to Ireland's blasphemy law (constitutionally required, though was off the books for years, brought back by a government because technically they had to, and due to be dismantled in the next referendum) which has been directly quoted by Pakistani politicians as a modern western blasphemy law, which makes theirs ok.
Anyone who held up the repeal of this is also responsible for this mans death sentence.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
You Are Viewtiful
Member
All the people who insult God have been possessed by the devil and have become evil or something such.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
This makes me so angry. Blasphemy is literally a victimless 'crime'.
You must feel really big with that insulting comment of yours. Guess you couldn't make your point without being a shit, huh?
AcademicSaucer
Member
Pakistan is not alone in having blasphemy/apostasy laws.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I'm extremely embarrassed for my country. No other way, won't even try and justify anything because this is pure BS.
Night Angel
Member
Religion is a hell of a drug. Thankfully in America Christianity is losing its grasp on our society (though it might claw some of that back in the next few years). Believe whatever you want, but don't force others to live by your imaginary friend's rules.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Aye, this shit is infuriating. True human stupidity at its greatest.
GameAddict411
Member
It's pretty common in Muslim countries due to Sharia law. But not a lot of countries enforce it like this. I guess Pakistan just wants to stand out among the most cruel countries in the region. It's also something we take for granted here in the west. We say and do somethings that we don't find important or significant, but in some countries it could get someone killed.
Netherscourge
Banned
Religion continues to be mankind's greatest mistake.
If imaginary beings and faith-based laws are enough to justify murder, then we've failed.
If imaginary beings and faith-based laws are enough to justify murder, then we've failed.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Almost every Muslim country has similar laws to this with similar punishments.
It's not extremism, this is the normal.
family_guy
Member
Religion of all forms needs to go.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
"Counterterrorism". Wow, I'm glad Pakistan is on its game fighting the real "terrorists" in the country. Instead of you, like, you know ISIS or Al-Qaeda hiding out in the country's north.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Just an important point: Pakistan is not a theocracy. It's very weird political system where the shari'a is defined by the Parliament. The parliament is not filled by religious scholars but by politicians.
So, as many people pointed, the issue is not secularism against sharia law. Most muslim majority country refer to shari'a law and don't have death penalty for blasphemy. The issue is this particular law.
This issue of "blasphemy" is often used to repress political opposition, like we saw in Indonesia recently. Sadly, the mob happily join in.
The people saying that "Islam need reform" because of this are ridiculous. Each country interpret Islam in it's own way and it's the responsibility of those countries. What a scholar says in Mauritania or Marrueco won't have any kind of effect on what occurs in Pakistan or India. Islam is a totally decentralized religion. So you cannot reform it as catholicism was reformed.
Islam is like judaism: there will always be very different trends inside the religion. Most important is to examine the factor that lead people to the more extreme/intolerant stance.
So, as many people pointed, the issue is not secularism against sharia law. Most muslim majority country refer to shari'a law and don't have death penalty for blasphemy. The issue is this particular law.
This issue of "blasphemy" is often used to repress political opposition, like we saw in Indonesia recently. Sadly, the mob happily join in.
The people saying that "Islam need reform" because of this are ridiculous. Each country interpret Islam in it's own way and it's the responsibility of those countries. What a scholar says in Mauritania or Marrueco won't have any kind of effect on what occurs in Pakistan or India. Islam is a totally decentralized religion. So you cannot reform it as catholicism was reformed.
Islam is like judaism: there will always be very different trends inside the religion. Most important is to examine the factor that lead people to the more extreme/intolerant stance.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Plainly false. Dark red is where death penalty exist against blasphemy. 9 countries out of 54.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Plainly false. Dark red is where death penalty exist against blasphemy. 9 countries out of 54.
*Almost every Muslim country has similar laws to this, many with similar punishments.
It's 12 btw. I think you missed Qatar, Bahrain and Brunei.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Doctor_Thomas
Member
If your god is so weak and insignificant that it needs to be protected by the laws of men, why worship it at all?
Blasphemy is not and never should be considered a crime.
Blasphemy is not and never should be considered a crime.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
That would be minimizing what's happening.
Muppet of a Man
Member
This. Never forget this. Hammer it into your head, regardless which religion entity is in power.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
The point of blasphemy law is not to protect God or religious figures but civil peace.
In islamic law, you cannot insult others religious figures, even if they don't mean anything to the religion.
It's pretty complicated to compare a largely secularized space like most western country where religion don't mean anything with countries with different religions that coexist and where faith is the central part of everybody's life.
I don't see any difference with the US law about blasphemy against the national flag, you can be jailed for this.
you cannot reform Islam because it's forbidden in the religion
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It would be true and avoid generalization, like the one you did in the first place.
HellforLeather
Member
Plainly false. Dark red is where death penalty exist against blasphemy. 9 countries out of 54.
So the dark orange ones just put you in prison for life?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
You're funny. Reformism is in the core of the islamic doctrine. The idea that the religion is altered, or need re-interpretation to fit to the current context have ALWAYS (and still) haunted the muslims scholars.
Just search about ijtihad, islah or ihya.
I don't get why people make this kind of statement without knowing anything about the issue.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I believe they call this "whataboutism".
Sending people to death or prison for harmless words is NOT okay. People's lives are more important than "faith".
Oh yeah, getting sent to prison instead. What progress. Islam has a huge problem with this, it can't withstand criticism. You're not getting off on technicalities.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
No, in jail. Up to 5 year in Indonesia. Israel 3 years. Jordan 3 years. Etc...
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
So, nobody should go to jail for blasphemy against the US flag ?
Comparison is not whataboutism. It's to show a secular country can do the exact same thing, so it's not religious. It's about the preservation of the social peace.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
I find that law equally ridiculous. I know the laws have nothing to do with protection of religion (or the flag) but the keep order by striking down dissenting opinions, more often than not, against the regime.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Of course not.
Wait, so you're actually okay with people going to jail over this? Incredible. And you're here trying to convince us Islam/religion is not the problem...
therealist
Member
FYI the Supreme Court struck down that law, it is not illegal to burn the American flag and hasn't been for decades.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's ridiculous until you have a riot (or a war) because a group decided to shout insult in a temple about this or this sacred figure. I think that in country where religion is very important, it make sense that it's punished because of the negative outcome, of course not by death penalty. Or like when christians missionary were looking for martyrdom by shouting insult against Islam in crowded markets, during the middle-age.
Of course, as we agreed, this is not the main reason is it used today. A famous political (and religious) leader was hanged in Sudan for "blasphemy against the Quran", not for his debatable theological positions, but because he was openly calling for justice.
In Iran, you can be hanged for blasphemy for opposing the supreme leader or the political system. Etc. Etc.
I agree to preserve the symbols which have importance to people, if it can preserve the social peace. I don't agree in the common use of those laws.
I believe that in a country like India for instance, a Muslim going inside a Hindu Temple and insulting Ganesh/Vishnu/Shiva should be punish.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Thanks for the info !
Anyway, it's still an offense that can lead you in jail in most western countries.
That's a weird argument considering our Supreme Court has already ruled things like burning the flag are protected under free speech. No, nobody should ever go to jail over blasphemy.
Social peace to me is letting people express their views without fear of anything more than being called out on it. So in most of those countries you won't get put to death for blasphemy but there's still significant jail time in many of them? That's backwards as fuck and you're instilling fear not peace.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
In an ideal world i would agree with you.
But i believe that what maintain social cohesiveness and public order is the fear of the punishment, in all humans societies. Just look at all those topics "Who would you kill if it would be without any consequences?". I would certainly make a rampage against the KKK.
But of course, in countries where there is no sensibility about religious issues, it's unnecessary and would lack purpose. But i understand the rationale behind the prohibition of burning the national flag, especially if you think of places like the Balkans.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
Bang on. These laws are absolutely absurd.
Theonik
Member
Did you just insult the laws of god? To the gallows with you.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Interesting. Given that many Europeans are sensitive about Muslim religious issues, would you advocate strong restrictions on Islam in the UK and France to maintain social peace?