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Panasonic Exhibits Prototype of First Next Generation Blu-ray Disc Player At CES 2015

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captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
Can someone explain why this chart is wrong? I mean, when we're talking about an average sized television in a living-room setting, isn't there a point at which extra resolution becomes irrelevant?
I don't know that its necessarily wrong. I use it more of a guideline. Because, yes, at a certain point, if you're 30 feet away from a 50" screen, you wont be able to tell much difference if any, there is between 1080p and 720p.

Netflix Picture and Audio Quality is actually pretty terrible. So much compression.

This. Where were you in that "so Blu-ray has been out for 8 years thread" when essentially I was the only one that has seen Netflix compression. :(
 
This. Where were you in that "so Blu-ray has been out for 8 years thread" when essentially I was the only one that has seen Netflix compression. :(

lol, I was there talking about all dat blu goodness but maybe you didn't see me. Anyways, I'm excited and will support the format when I get a 4K TV in the future. Currently have 300+ bluray titles and it won't be stopping anytime soon.
 
Lol, I'm going to refrain from making fun of people that want 4K content like I did with people who want virtual reality but...

For 99% of people there is no need for this. Like the chart shows, most people can't tell the difference unless the TV is the size of the wall. Beyond that, to me, there's no point in buying a 4K TV anyway because there's not much content you're going to see for that TV anyway unless it comes through the internet or Blu Ray. Cable companies don't even really offer good 1080p content because it's extremely compressed. 4K is a huge waste of money to me, but if something good comes of it, it will be that 1080p televisions will be bumped even lower in price now. Their (wallet) pain is my gain I guess.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Can someone explain why this chart is wrong? I mean, when we're talking about an average sized television in a living-room setting, isn't there a point at which extra resolution becomes irrelevant?
IIRC, there are lot of assumptions being made by the author, including what the original source material is. This is geared more towards film content, not native rendering, and even then is questionable.



That all said, the resolution aspects of UHD aren't even the big advance. Which is why I've argued against purchasing 4K sets that are simply a higher res 1080p display. The important aspect moving forward is that they are 'better' pixels, not just more. UHD supports a dramatically larger gamut, higher dynamic range, and more color gradations. The reality is DVD, BD, and HDTV all used the same gamut, bit-depth, and dynamic range. They varied in resolution and amount of compression.

With UHD, there's a significant increase in those aspects ... and it is much closer to what we can actually perceive in reality. If you were to have two 1080p TV's side-by-side, with one getting a standard BD and the other getting a 1080p encode with these other features ... the difference is obvious and dramatic. So even for 'smaller' sets that support these features, the improvement is huge.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
Lol, I'm going to refrain from making fun of people that want 4K content like I did with people who want virtual reality but...

For 99% of people there is no need for this. Like the chart shows, most people can't tell the difference unless the TV is the size of the wall. Beyond that, to me, there's no point in buying a 4K TV anyway because there's not much content you're going to see for that TV anyway unless it comes through the internet or Blu Ray. Cable companies don't even really offer good 1080p content because it's extremely compressed. 4K is a huge waste of money to me, but if something good comes of it, it will be that 1080p televisions will be bumped even lower in price now. Their (wallet) pain is my gain I guess.

First of all, I would argue that your 99% is off.
But secondly, going with your 99% remark. 99% of people will never own a Bugatti Veyron, or Lamborghini, so should they just not make them? Never mind that the top of products like that, lead to better features for lower level cars.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Lol, I'm going to refrain from making fun of people that want 4K content like I did with people who want virtual reality but...

For 99% of people there is no need for this. Like the chart shows, most people can't tell the difference unless the TV is the size of the wall. Beyond that, to me, there's no point in buying a 4K TV anyway because there's not much content you're going to see for that TV anyway unless it comes through the internet or Blu Ray. Cable companies don't even really offer good 1080p content because it's extremely compressed. 4K is a huge waste of money to me, but if something good comes of it, it will be that 1080p televisions will be bumped even lower in price now. Their (wallet) pain is my gain I guess.
Lol, I'm going to refrain from making fun of you because you're ignorant to the facts of the matter.
 

Oersted

Member
IIRC, there are lot of assumptions being made by the author, including what the original source material is. This is geared more towards film content, not native rendering, and even then is questionable.



That all said, the resolution aspects of UHD aren't even the big advance. Which is why I've argued against purchasing 4K sets that are simply a higher res 1080p display. The important aspect moving forward is that they are 'better' pixels, not just more. [/img] UHD supports a dramatically larger gamut, higher dynamic range, and more color gradations. The reality is DVD, BD, and HDTV all used the same gamut, bit-depth, and dynamic range. They varied in resolution and amount of compression.

With UHD, there's a significant increase in those aspects ... and it is much closer to what we can actually perceive in reality. If you were to have two 1080p TV's side-by-side, with one getting a standard BD and the other getting a 1080p encode with these other features ... the difference is obvious and dramatic. So even for 'smaller' sets that support these features, the improvement is huge.


Amen. And I'm hyped for that. Yes, people en masse probably won't care, but I embrace the quality increase.
 
First of all, I would argue that your 99% is off.
But secondly, going with your 99% remark. 99% of people will never own a Bugatti Veyron, or Lamborghini, so should they just not make them? Never mind that the top of products like that, lead to better features for lower level cars.
Well, taking your analogy further, 99% of people will never be in a situation to push those cars to the full extent of their abilities, therefore the vast majority of them are wasting their money in my opinion. And innovation would occur in the space with or without those cars existing.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Well, taking your analogy further, 99% of people will never be in a situation to push those cars to the full extent of their abilities, therefore the vast majority of them are wasting their money in my opinion. And innovation would occur in the space with or without those cars existing.

just stop
 

Madness

Member

That will be it's downfall. They need significantly larger disc sizes to combat downloading and streaming. 200-500gb discs and you can show people, in the era of data caps, what it's like to fit all 3 lord of the Rings extended edition movies in 4K on a single 500gb disc, especially with larger audio requirements like the new Dolby Atmos etc.

Movies and television have it a bit better, because unlike music, you still need a quality visual medium . most people watch at home. It's one thing having a CD or record and having an mp3 player with 20k songs with no negligible quality difference.

One thing that needs to continue is easy backwards compatibility for all BD and 3D blu ray variants.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
That will be it's downfall. They need significantly larger disc sizes to combat downloading and streaming. 200-500gb discs and you can show people, in the era of data caps, what it's like to fit all 3 lord of the Rings extended edition movies in 4K on a single 500gb disc, especially with larger audio requirements like the new Dolby Atmos etc.

Movies and television have it a bit better, because unlike music, you still need a quality visual medium . most people watch at home. It's one thing having a CD or record and having an mp3 player with 20k songs with no negligible quality difference.
While I would love that to be the case, that's the same argument people made for BD when we were transitioning from DVD.

The reality is in the US, which to my knowledge has the largest streaming and on-demand adoption, we are only now hitting a 50/50 split between physical media and digital. And that's actually in large part due to rentals, which have all but dried up here for discs. With the demise of Block Buster and Netflix rental subscriptions dwindling, stuff like Red Box is pretty much the main way people rent physical media. Even more surprising, VOD services from cable/sat actually make up the majority of digital rentals - showing that Vudu, iTunes, Amazon, etc. still have a ways to go in the rental arena.

The point being, physical media is still the majority player when it comes to actual purchases - not digital. There is still plenty of money to be made there, and why we still see BD's hitting regularly. And even if it eventually shrinks to a minority, the up-front costs have already been sunk ... so it will continue to remain a profitable niche for quite some time. Printing a disc is cheap, and it's still popular particularly for purchases.

Moving to people that want 4K content, we're further pushing physical media's longevity due to the increase in bandwidth requirements digital requires.

One thing that needs to continue is easy backwards compatibility for all BD and 3D blu ray variants.
It's there - pretty much inherently. BD 4K is using the same laser wavelength, so creating assemblies that read all is trivial. The only real requirement is a decoder for the older codecs, but those cost next to nothing at this point. And moving forward will be included in the SoC's used in these players anyway ... so in reality it essentially comes with it.
 

tapedeck

Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
Like this one?

resolution_chart.jpg
This chart is complete bullshit.
 
While I would love that to be the case, that's the same argument people made for BD when we were transitioning from DVD.

The reality is in the US, which to my knowledge has the largest streaming and on-demand adoption, we are only now hitting a 50/50 split between physical media and digital. And that's actually in large part due to rentals, which have all but dried up here for discs. With the demise of Block Buster and Netflix rental subscriptions dwindling, stuff like Red Box is pretty much the main way people rent physical media. Even more surprising, VOD services from cable/sat actually make up the majority of digital rentals - showing that Vudu, iTunes, Amazon, etc. still have a ways to go in the rental arena.

The point being, physical media is still the majority player when it comes to actual purchases - not digital. There is still plenty of money to be made there, and why we still see BD's hitting regularly. And even if it eventually shrinks to a minority, the up-front costs have already been sunk ... so it will continue to remain a profitable niche for quite some time. Printing a disc is cheap, and it's still popular particularly for purchases.

Moving to people that want 4K content, we're further pushing physical media's longevity due to the increase in bandwidth requirements digital requires.


It's there - pretty much inherently. BD 4K is using the same laser wavelength, so creating assemblies that read all is trivial. The only real requirement is a decoder for the older codecs, but those cost next to nothing at this point. And moving forward will be included in the SoC's used in these players anyway ... so in reality it essentially comes with it.

Physical media also has frequent sales. With blu-rays as cheap as $1. Why would I want to go digital with lower quality and no decent sales. Digital is a ripoff.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Any chance the PS4 and Xbox One could be firmware upgraded to support this?

Both companies said their consoles would "support 4K".
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I wonder how many of our favourite movies will never see a 4K Blu-ray release?

Movies like Star Wars Episode 2+3 were only ever filmed in 1080p, so a 4K Blu-ray release would literally just be an upscale.

28 Days Later, The Blair Witch Project and Open Water came out on Blu-ray so I suppose anything is possible.
But with Blu-ray you were at least moving to lossless (and sometimes 24-bit) audio. Blu-ray even has Atmos now. There's really nowhere left for 4K Blu-ray to go on the audio front.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Any chance the PS4 and Xbox One could be firmware upgraded to support this?

Both companies said their consoles would "support 4K".
the PS4/XboxOne can play 4K BluRays right?

but do they support/or can support HDR down the road?

Possibly, but there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. To this day, I'm not sure we've ever seen specs on the HDMI bandwidth of either box, the bandwidth of the bus leading to the HDMI, nor information on what level of programability is available. Also I'm not sure what, if any, hardware requirements are necessary for HDCP.

Moreover, this unit isn't final since the BD 4K spec itself isn't final. Hell, we don't even know if HDCP 2.2 is even a requirement. Until all of the above is known, it can't be assumed one way or the other.
 

hirokazu

Member
Apart from the annoyance of having to upgrade all my movies, this is great news. Guess I'll jump into 4K in another 2-3 years when these discs start coming out.

And no, digital and streaming isn't even a good solution for quality 1080p yet, let alone 4K. People say digital distribution is the way to go, and it's probably "good enough" for the majority of consumers. But I think they'll always be a market for people who will want the absolute highest quality consumer technology can available.
 

hirokazu

Member
the PS4/XboxOne can play 4K BluRays right?

but do they support/or can support HDR down the road?
I don't think they'll make the cut this time. I mean, theoretically, they could fudge in support without having the required HDMI standards like Sony did with PS3, but this time round, I think the hardware limitations are too far off.

I doubt either can read Blu-ray Discs larger the 50GB, for example. Without seeing the specs, we don't know if UHD-BD uses standard dual layer Blu-ray for 50GB discs or whether they use whatever technique they use to get 100GB, but with only a single layer. Either way, it's highly unlikely for them to make a differentiationof what UHD-BDs can be played based on disc capacity.

More likely they'll release a revised model capable of doing it or skip it until next gen, if we're even still getting disc-based consoles next time round.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
I don't think they'll make the cut this time. I mean, theoretically, they could fudge in support without having the required HDMI standards like Sony did with PS3, but this time round, I think the hardware limitations are too far off.
Was the PS3 'fudged' though? I had what was essentially considered a prototype HDMI 1.3 board. What made it unique at the time though was how programmable it was, and the fact they were forward thinking enough to demand a high clock speed (bandwidth). Once the BD 3D spec came, it was able to be retrofitted because the drive already was fast enough (2x is required instead of the original BD 1.5x speed to get the extra bitrate). On the HDMI end they were already clocked fast enough, so it came down to programming the HDMI to properly sync to the new format. It wasn't missing any hardware.

So the question becomes what sort of HDMI chipset was used in these boards? I know at least for PS4 the HDMI is listed to support 4K for pictures and video, but we know nothing beyond that. HDMI 1.4 at max speed supports 4K30. I'd have to run the math whether it can 4K24 at 10-bit. Even if it can't though, BD 4K players will have the capability to downsample to 8-bit since there are already 8-bit 4K TV's available. Granted that defeats the purpose IMO, but it could still at least mean playback. But what if PS4 or XBone is actually clocked higher? For all we know these are prototype HDMI 2.0 boards. It's really weird a dev hasn't leaked this info.

In terms of bitrates, the BD drive in the PS4 (and I believe XBox One) is 6x. I guess it remains to be seen whether that is sufficient. I imagine so.

Probably the bigger question is HDCP 2.2. We don't know if BD 4K will require it. If it does, I actually don't know if there is required hardware for it, or if it is entirely a software implementation. And again, even if it's a hardware solution ... do either of the consoles have it? We don't know.

While Sony went the crazy route with PS3 and directly contracted the HDMI from Silicon Image IIRC, I'm not sure the that's the case here? It may have been entirely left up to AMD. That said, high programmability is the norm in HDMI boards now, and that's especially true for PC implementations (which this essentially is).

It's a big what if at this point.

I doubt either can read Blu-ray Discs larger the 50GB, for example. Without seeing the specs, we don't know if UHD-BD uses standard dual layer Blu-ray for 50GB discs or whether they use whatever technique they use to get 100GB, but with only a single layer. Either way, it's highly unlikely for them to make a differentiationof what UHD-BDs can be played based on disc capacity.
The assumed spec is the same as BD XL (up to 4 layers). The good news is that it's been openly stated that most BD laser assemblies can in fact be upgraded to the correct focal lengths for it. By design, the laser assemblies are programmable and the focal lengths being used are within the range of most modern BD ROM's. So assuming they aren't doing anything weird in terms of optics, this likely isn't a limiting factor for the consoles.

More likely they'll release a revised model capable of doing it or skip it until next gen, if we're even still getting disc-based consoles next time round.
Certainly I do see this happening if there are issues. Well at least for PS4. Not sure Microsoft gives one shit.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
What are you talking about? I regularly can and will buy BluRay movies that are well below 10 dollars.

A) But how much will they be on DVD for the same film? Thus keeping people buying the DVD version.

B) Everything in America is cheap and not everyone lives in America.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
This chart is complete bullshit.

Primarily the Y scale is off. The Y scale changes with viewer's visual acuity.

But the general concept is fairly sound; stand back far enough and you won't be able to perceive a difference between various resolutions.

Conversely, you'll need increasingly large TVs to provide full benefit of the rated resolution for any given seating distance.
 

Juz

Member
I think I'll stick with my 200+ regular blu-ray collection.

Don't see it as a big enough upgrade for me.
 

Theonik

Member
Amen. And I'm hyped for that. Yes, people en masse probably won't care, but I embrace the quality increase.
That actually remains to be seen. Once more HDR displays begin rolling out I think that will have a greater impact that higher resolution does, consumers might very well buy into that.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I think I'll stick with my 200+ regular blu-ray collection.

Don't see it as a big enough upgrade for me.

I love my tech, and upgraded my TV way too often, yet even I'm not tempted by 4k - mainly due to lack of content, but also the lack of understanding why I'd need that resolution.

When I go to the cinema, plenty of them still show 2k content - and that is blown up onto a huge screen and still looks great. Of course it is less compressed etc, but Bluray 1080p is pretty damn nice, and we now have lossless audio.

I'll take 'better' pixels but I'm unconvinced about HDR if it is anything like the usually godawful HDR photos you see. And that will require changes at the point of capture, so unless they upgrade cinemas to support HDR too, I don't see there being any meaningful content using those better pixels for at least 5 years, possibly longer.

I'm happy to wait and jump in once someone shows me something worth jumping in for.
 

Flappy

Banned
The best news for me is that the next generation will still be able to play my regular BR collection. So no need to replace them all.
 
4k looks great, but until there is a ton of content, or the PS5/Xbox Two come out and run games in 4K, I'm waiting it out.

4K Blu-ray is not going to sell it to me as I have never bought a Blu-ray and can't see myself ever buying a movie again.

I subscribe to Sky HD and even now they only transmit 1080i so 4K TV seems a mile off.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
I think I'll stick with my 200+ regular blu-ray collection.

Don't see it as a big enough upgrade for me.
This is the same old song and dance we heard with DVD ... then with BluRay.

No one is saying you have to replace your collection of existing movies if you don't want to.



No changes to capacity? At least some more layers would be nice.
Odd there's no mention of it.

The spec is expected to support 4 layers though.
 

televator

Member
This is the same old song and dance we heard with DVD ... then with BluRay.

No one is saying you have to replace your collection of existing movies if you don't want to.




Odd there's no mention of it.

The spec is expected to support 4 layers though.

Oh that's a relief. Compressing 4k into the space occupied by 1080p films sounded a bit shitty to me.
 
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