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[Kazza]

Oh, ffs! This is going to be crazy awesome if they don't fuck it up. Please don't fuck it up. The art style is so unique it needs someone who gets it to remake it, low budget or not, they need to be spot-on!

Yeah, the art style for these games was so amazing. They were partly inspired by the 1970s Azarch comic strips of Jean Giraud:

The same artist, also known as Moebius, would later design the front cover for the original Panzaer Dragoon (as well as other artworks):

Here is a great article on the topic.

As great an achievement as the original trilogy of games were considering the hardware, they never seemed quite able to really express the world, as envisioned by their creators. I really hope these new versions can.

 

[captainraincoat]

I hope they're good first, then we'll see if fans should get it or not, lol. I'd have been way more confident with HD ports as ugly as they'd be for most, a random external studio doing full remakes seems risky.

Would love Saturn collections ported umpteenth times.

Man I loved that game on my Saturn.....was such a wonderful game to play and a big nod back to space harrier

 

[Kazza]

Oh, and we have what seems to be the first acknowledgement from someone at Sega (well, from one of the guys at Atlus/SoA responsible for the Yakuza localisations anyway):





For thise without twitter, he basically says that it's the same situation as with Streets of Rage 4 (ie, not Sega developed)

 

[cireza]

Despite owning a Saturn at the time, I somehow managed to miss the whole Panzer Dragoon series (to my eternal shame). After playing (and loving) Panzer Dragoon Orta for the first tie a couple of years back, I found the original and Zwei a little hard to go back to. These are the innovations introduced in Orta that I would like to see in these remakes:
1. Frame rate increased to 60 fps
2. 3 forms of the dragon. This takes a little getting used to at first, but it also adds a huge amount of depth to the gameplay, as you have to decide which of the three to use in any given situation (which also increases replayability). The original and Zwei seemed a little simplistic without this feature.
3. Berserk attack (although I believe this may have been first introduced in Zwei)
4. Branching paths
5. Ability to upgrade the dragon using genes captured from defeated enemies



This could be a dumb question from me, but since these are remasters rather than remakes, doesn't that imply that these will be re-coded from the ground up anyway? In that case, the lost Saga code doesn't seem very important.

Zwei has branching paths, berserk and dragon evolution. Zwei has awesome game-design. Each time your dragon evolves, he actually loses life, making the game harder. You need to take the most difficult paths and have a very high kill-ratio to unlock the final form against the final boss.

The game runs at a perfectly smooth 30fps which is a huge achievement for the Saturn considering all the 3D stuff displayed.

It was an incredible jump ahead after the first game, as much as Phantasy Star I to Phantasy Star II : it helped forge the series and define it even more precisely. Orta is an absolute master-piece gameplay wise, but it took too much liberty about its universe.

 

[Alexios]

Orta's side story with the imperial soldier was more faithful to the tone and mood of Panzer Dragoon Zwei/Saga than the main game. But I didn't enjoy its gameplay. I was also disappointed not just with the main story but also the new interpretation of the classic art. Technically it was marvelous but only a few areas and new monster designs were as good to me. Not to mention the dragon design itself.... Yikes. No idea what they were thinking with that. At least some of the evolved forms in certain modes were less offensive. On the other hand it was cool that they incorporated Saga's tactical positioning into the boss fights of a real rail shooter and the mode switching from agility to attack to whatever. But I don't think I want the latter at least in a Zwei remake, the above explained systems were cool too. The positioning could work perhaps but design is probably tighter without it as the bosses wave around switching sides and therefor weapons and moves and phases in Zwei a lot. No need to give faux-freedom like that.

 

[Mr Hyde]

but since these are remasters rather than remakes, doesn't that imply that these will be re-coded from the ground up anyway? In that case, the lost Saga code doesn't seem very important.

Yeah I guess, but I think the source code is always important, even if you are building a new game from the ground up. There is a lot of work there, assets, scripts and so on that could make the work on a remake a lot easier. And the statement given in the OP says that these games will be remakes rather than remasters, so who knows how they move forward with the development. Either way, I hope Sega has something in the works when it comes to Panzer Dragoon Saga, it would be a shame if it was lost forever. It´s a gem not many of us have played.

 

[Kazza]

Zwei has branching paths, berserk and dragon evolution. Zwei has awesome game-design. Each time your dragon evolves, he actually loses life, making the game harder. You need to take the most difficult paths and have a very high kill-ratio to unlock the final form against the final boss.

The game runs at a perfectly smooth 30fps which is a huge achievement for the Saturn considering all the 3D stuff displayed.

It was an incredible jump ahead after the first game, as much as Phantasy Star I to Phantasy Star II : it helped forge the series and define it even more precisely. Orta is an absolute master-piece gameplay wise, but it took too much liberty about its universe.

Oh, thanks for the info. I only played a little of Zwei (my basic laptop can't really handle emulating 3D Saturn games, so I stopped). Did it have the boost/slow mechanic from Orta as well? (you often used it to avoid getting hit, or to move around bosses)

Orta's side story with the imperial soldier was more faithful to the tone and mood of Panzer Dragoon Zwei/Saga than the main game. But I didn't enjoy its gameplay. I was also disappointed not just with the main story but also the new interpretation of the classic art. Technically it was marvelous but only a few areas and new monster designs were as good to me. Not to mention the dragon design itself.... Yikes. No idea what they were thinking with that. At least some of the evolved forms in certain modes were less offensive. On the other hand it was cool that they incorporated Saga's tactical positioning into the boss fights of a real rail shooter and the mode switching from agility to attack to whatever. But I don't think I want the latter at least in a Zwei remake, the above explained systems were cool too. The positioning could work perhaps but design is probably tighter without it as the bosses wave around switching sides and therefor weapons and moves and phases in Zwei a lot. No need to give faux-freedom like that.

Orta was the first Panzer game I played, so I have no beef with the design or story. With a lot of games you just finish them and that's it, they kind of just drift out of memory. With Orta however, I was really sucked into the world and have some great memories:

Spoiler: Orta spoilers

- the first level when you escape from prison during a big storm
- the level where you're travelling through a lush river valley, encountering all kinds of biologic weaponized creatures
- running through the desert on your injured dragon until, whoosh, it's flying again
- that weird statue boss who tries to shoot you down with lasers
- the time during the big battle where you manage to sneak a way into the mother ship, catch the enemy unawares and then proceed to blast away at their attack craft while they're still on the landing pad.
- and many, many more

Obviously, with these first two titles they'll have to balance the adding of new features with not changing too much so as to alienate old fans. I think the boost to 60fps will be the main benefit (especially for the first one).

Yeah I guess, but I think the source code is always important, even if you are building a new game from the ground up. There is a lot of work there, assets, scripts and so on that could make the work on a remake a lot easier. And the statement given in the OP says that these games will be remakes rather than remasters, so who knows how they move forward with the development. Either way, I hope Sega has something in the works when it comes to Panzer Dragoon Saga, it would be a shame if it was lost forever. It´s a gem not many of us have played.

I hope Sega don't base a decision whether or not to remake Saga on the performance of these remasters. Even great rail shooters (such as this, Sin & Punishment, and Rez) don't seem to sell too well. RPGs on the other hand have much more sales potential. Given that fact, I'm pleasantly surprised that they are remastering the first two at all. Hopefully, we'll see all Panzer games on modern systems eventually.

 

[Oemenia]

Orta's side story with the imperial soldier was more faithful to the tone and mood of Panzer Dragoon Zwei/Saga than the main game. But I didn't enjoy its gameplay. I was also disappointed not just with the main story but also the new interpretation of the classic art. Technically it was marvelous but only a few areas and new monster designs were as good to me. Not to mention the dragon design itself.... Yikes. No idea what they were thinking with that. At least some of the evolved forms in certain modes were less offensive. On the other hand it was cool that they incorporated Saga's tactical positioning into the boss fights of a real rail shooter and the mode switching from agility to attack to whatever. But I don't think I want the latter at least in a Zwei remake, the above explained systems were cool too. The positioning could work perhaps but design is probably tighter without it as the bosses wave around switching sides and therefor weapons and moves and phases in Zwei a lot. No need to give faux-freedom like that.

As many people have said in this thread, I started with Orta (and played the first game with it) and was mesmerised by the world that they had built. Is Zwei in your opinion the pinacle of the franchise and does Saga have the same sense of awe to it?

 

[ienjoyrawfish]

After playing (and loving) Panzer Dragoon Orta for the first tie a couple of years back, I found the original and Zwei a little hard to go back to. These are the innovations introduced in Orta that I would like to see in these remakes:
1. Frame rate increased to 60 fps
2. 3 forms of the dragon. This takes a little getting used to at first, but it also adds a huge amount of depth to the gameplay, as you have to decide which of the three to use in any given situation (which also increases replayability). The original and Zwei seemed a little simplistic without this feature.
3. Berserk attack (although I believe this may have been first introduced in Zwei)
4. Branching paths
5. Ability to upgrade the dragon using genes captured from defeated enemies

Zwei had the beserk attack and also branching paths. You can upgrade your Dragon too, although it doesn't work in quite the same way as Orta.

That said, I agree that Orta is the better game mainly for points 1 and 2 that you raise and also because it has so much more content and a greater level of challenge (Zwei is a little on the easy side for a Panzer Dragoon game). I'm in the minority though as most people who played the Saturn games first, as I did, tend to regard Zwei as the best of the rail shooters. Either way, both are comfortably in the top 10 best games Sega have ever made (as is Panzer Dragoon Saga of course).

 

[Alexios]

As many people have said in this thread, I started with Orta (and played the first game with it) and was mesmerised by the world that they had built. Is Zwei in your opinion the pinacle of the franchise and does Saga have the same sense of awe to it?

Zwei and Saga are the best in my opinion. Zwei solidified the style, Saga enhanced it in a number of ways. To me Orta was a good game but a watered down look at the Panzer Dragoon universe and its art. Except for the imperial side story and other cool bits here and there like the encyclopedia. I'm actually not a big fan of the original game either.

Even if you like Orta after looking past the older quality outdated CG style of the previous games you can see the art style is quite different even in this one central bit. You could also see the final view Zwei forms in Saga's style but only with in-game graphics.

 

[BANGS]

I'll definitely keep this on my radar as I still play 2 every now and then, but I'm really surprised they announced BOTH games and no Saga. Saga is the game everyone wants remade, not these two... it's just a weird decision...

 

[cireza]

Did it have the boost/slow mechanic from Orta as well?

No it did not. I find that the boost mechanics is actually inherited from Saga, where you could rotate around the enemies. In Orta, it is also used in some places to evade hazards or enemy bullets.

Even if I like the boost mechanic, I would like it to be reserved for the boss fights.

 

[RoboFu]

Zwei is definitely the best of the series. If they nail that one without too much change then I will be all over this.

 

[Kazza]

Speaking of Orta, it seems to be half price at the moment for Xbox Live Gold members. It's a steal at just $5.

 

[Elfstar]

I think Sega has been pretty good with this in recent years. SoR4 seems to be in very competent hands and Shenmue is with Yu Suzuki, so I have no reason to complain. Even the team who did the 3DS Shinobi game a while back did a good job. That said, no developers have been announced yet and until then I'm going to be a little nervous for this one too.

Honestly, I don't know.
Yeah, Shenmue 3 is being handled by Yu Suzuki himself, and thank god for that, but it wasn't Sega's initiative, they just agreed to hand over the rights.
What they actually did was to give the task of remaking the first two games to some small, unknown european indie studio (does this ring you a bell?), only to shut it off when they found out it wasn't good enough. Then they made them release an undercooked, bug-ridden hd conversion.
Problem is, this kind of approach can be extremely hit and miss.
Sonic Mania was pretty great, but of course, it was made by one the most experienced and talented fan-developer of the series.
And, ok Westone is now long gone so the Wonder Boy series might've needed outsourcing, even thought they ultimately turned it into a franco-belgian comic.
But why couldn't freaking Ancient make freaking Street of Rage 4? Why did it have to be made by some other no-name western studio that only released a decent indie beat em up?
Why couldn't Sega of Japan iself handle something so important as a Panzer Dragoon full remake?
I get that they figured out that western fans don't really give a shit about anything but brands alone, but they care so little about their identity and the integrity of their history that it hurts.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Honestly, I don't know.
Yeah, Shenmue 3 is being handled by Yu Suzuki himself, and thank god for that, but it wasn't Sega's initiative, they just agreed to hand over the rights.
What they actually did was to give the task of remaking the first two games to some small, unknown european indie studio (does this ring you a bell?), only to shut it off when they found out it wasn't good enough. Then they made them release an undercooked, bug-ridden hd conversion.
Problem is, this kind of approach can be extremely hit and miss.
Sonic Mania was pretty great, but of course, it was made by one the most experienced and talented fan-developer of the series.
And, ok Westone is now long gone so the Wonder Boy series might've needed outsourcing, even thought they ultimately turned it into a franco-belgian comic.
But why couldn't freaking Ancient make freaking Street of Rage 4? Why did it have to be made by some other no-name western studio that only released a decent indie beat em up?
Why couldn't Sega of Japan iself handle something so important as a Panzer Dragoon full remake?
I get that they figured out that western fans don't really give a shit about anything but brands alone, but they care so little about their identity and the integrity of their history that it hurts.

SEGA has pivoted into the role of publisher instead of developer. These are valid questions and they make perfect sense when you realize the previous statement. They're making casholah from stuff like Total War, Alien, most of Platinum's library, etc.

Why risk a lot of money and resources remaking their own games when eager Western devs will handle it for them? That's right in line with their business model.

 

[frogger]

Panzer Dragoon Orta is on sale for $5 at xbox store right now, it is BC on 360 and one

 

[goldenpp72]

What

 

[CloudStrife_ca]

Wow this is the biggest sleeper announcement of 2018 by far. Can't wait! I used to love playing on my Sega Saturn back in the day.

 

[Vitacat]

NIce. Shame that Saga's source code was lost. Amazing how little care companies took with their code back then.

I guess it never occurred to them they were creating something with any real cultural value, that they themselves could capitalize on in the future. It's not like preserving code takes a whole lot of resources. They just didn't give a damn.

Anyway, great series and glad to see 1 and 2 getting a revival.