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[MrNyarlathotep]

Chargebacks are a consumer right (even if they are abused)

No, sorry, as others have discussed; chargebacks are a VERY different thing to a refund.

A chargeback is a statement that there was a fradulent transaction, and not only does the vendor lose that money on that particular sale, it is also held against the vendor, and a certain amount of chargebacks in a given period result in fines by the credit card company against that vendor (in the amounts of thousands of dollars) and a longterm result of not being able to accept credit card payments at all.

THAT is why Steam locks accounts that have issued a chargeback; because a chargeback is a statement that fraudulent transactions are being made on that credit card, and most countries laws (and all credit cards regulations) require for that to be treated promptly to prevent any further fraud being committed.

So if you want to blame someone for that, blame the credit card companies, or - more fairly - the retards who don't understand the difference between a chargeback and a refund.

Chargebacks are a consumers last resort against fraud, not the first step if you fancy a refund.

Steamworks is not free for developers/publishers.

Yes it is.

By all definitions of the word free.

You can have steamworks enabled games that you don't even sell on Steam if you want.

 

[Minsc]

No, sorry, as others have discussed; chargebacks are a VERY different thing to a refund.

A chargeback is a statement that there was a fradulent transaction, and not only does the vendor lose that money on that particular sale, it is also held against the vendor, and a certain amount of chargebacks in a given period result in fines by the credit card company against that vendor (in the amounts of thousands of dollars) and a longterm result of not being able to accept credit card payments at all.

THAT is why Steam locks accounts that have issued a chargeback; because a chargeback is a statement that fraudulent transactions are being made on that credit card, and most countries laws (and all credit cards regulations) require for that to be treated promptly to prevent any further fraud being committed.

So if you want to blame someone for that, blame the credit card companies, or - more fairly - the retards who don't understand the difference between a chargeback and a refund.

Chargebacks are a consumers last resort against fraud, not the first step if you fancy a refund.

From wiki:

The chargebacks mechanism exists primarily for consumer protection. U.S. credit card holders are afforded reversal rights by Federal Reserve Regulation Z under the Truth in Lending Act. U.S. debit card holders are guaranteed reversal rights by Federal Reserve Regulation E under the Electronic Funds Transfer Act. Similar rights extend globally pursuant to the rules established by the corresponding card association or bank network.

Sounds like a right to me. No one here is arguing they are a first step, in fact most credit card companies require you to say you've done everything you can in resolving the matter with the merchant before they will issue one. And just because they issue a chargeback doesn't mean the company getting the chargeback can't fight it.

It sounds like Valve is doing everything they can to take that right away, which perhaps is in their best interest, but it is not in mine.

Even if they just disabled your account from making further purchases indefinitely, it would have the same effect, without ripping your entire collection from you at a whim. At least then during the resolution process, you'd still have access to successfully purchased games, which would make their incompetently slow customer service a bit more bearable..

 

[Stallion Free]

It sounds like Valve is doing everything they can to take that right away, which perhaps is in their best interest, but it is not in mine.

Even if they just disabled your account from making further purchases indefinitely, it would have the same effect, without ripping your entire collection from you at a whim. At least then during the resolution process, you'd still have access to successfully purchased games.

Give me a valid reason for needing to charge back something on Steam.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Sounds like a right to me. No one here is arguing they are a first step, in fact most credit card companies require you to say you've done everything you can in resolving the matter with the merchant before they will issue one. And just because they issue a chargeback doesn't mean the company getting the chargeback can't fight it.

The problems people have had with their accounts are precisely because certain middlemen (like paypal) who are not bound by banking and distance selling legislations (they're not banks or credit card companies) DO chargeback as a first resort.

There is very little vendors can do to dispute chargebacks short of not accepting credit cards. Which for an online only vendor of - effectively - a service rather than a product is commercially impossible.

It sounds like Valve is doing everything they can to take that right away, which perhaps is in their best interest, but it is not in mine.

Even if they just disabled your account from making further purchases indefinitely, it would have the same effect, without ripping your entire collection from you at a whim. At least then during the resolution process, you'd still have access to successfully purchased games.

If you chargeback a legitimate (ie you intended to make it) transaction, what else can Valve do?

It doesn't seem to me - at ALL - that they are trying to prevent legitimate use of chargebacks (ie the use pertaining to credit card fraud for which the legislation exists and for which it IS a consumer right).

If you sell someone something on account, and you get a report that that account has been stolen and is making unauthorised payments, you let them retain access to that account, despite that meaning that you will be unable to take credit card payments in the future for not taking sufficient action against fraud?

Or you lock that account until the matter has been resolved?

 

[poppabk]

Give me a valid reason for needing to charge back something on Steam.

If they failed to add the game you bought to your list of games and refused to refund your money or add the game. Or if a game was incompatible with hardware/software that they claimed it did work with.
I understand why steam handle chargebacks like they do, as a deterrent, but it is a little harsh if someone does have a genuine complaint.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

If they failed to add the game you bought to your list of games and refused to refund your money or add the game. Or if a game was incompatible with hardware/software that they claimed it did work with.
I understand why steam handle chargebacks like they do, as a deterrent, but it is a little harsh if someone does have a genuine complaint.

Has this ever happened?

I genuinely have never heard of such a case occurring.

 

[Stallion Free]

If they failed to add the game you bought to your list of games and refused to refund your money or add the game. Or if a game was incompatible with hardware/software that they claimed it did work with.
I understand why steam handle chargebacks like they do, as a deterrent, but it is a little harsh if someone does have a genuine complaint.

But there you go, you contacted Valve first. I have never heard of them refusing to refund money/make the game appear on your list. I have heard plenty of people with cases where the game didn't run and they got a refund.

 

[poppabk]

Has this ever happened?

I genuinely have never heard of such a case occurring.

I am sure if you looked around the forums you would find times where Valves system screwed up and someone was left without a game they had paid for. Valve would assuredly fix this - but what if they didn't? That is where chargebacks come into play - they are the safety net to prevent companies abusing the customers by bringing the power of the credit card company into play. Valve has effectively pulled that safety net from under the customer, and so far it hasn't been a major issue because they have dealt equitably with their customers.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Not if that version is not the most current one available.

Back up the folder of the version you want to play?

And to copy a game without Steam, all I have to do is copy a folder, regardless of my state of connectivity or the account that it will be used for. Also, when we LAN, we don't have an internet connection most of the time.

One of my computers is never connected to the internet; the ability to connect momentarily to the internet is frequently not there.

So the extra 30 seconds it will take you to move and verify a backup versus a folder is a deal-breaker? Gotcha. As for the internet argument, the internet connection is just the equivalent of a CD/DVD check. Physical media requires that you always have the disk, Steam requires that you always have an internet connection. The latter is more convenient these days by far, I can't think of a single reason why you would keep a computer around that isn't connected to the internet in all honesty.

Nope.

My point had nothing to do with whether or not you were being honest. Rather that Diablo 2 is a game from 10 years ago. Modern games will almost certainly provide a proper modding interface which doesn't necessitate the kind of duplication demonstrated in the above screenshot. Either way this is largely irrelevant anyway because Diablo 2 isn't even available on Steam, so your oddly specific requirements for it have sweet fanny-adams to do with the topic at hand.

Also, for the love of all things good in this world, organise your folders better. Those "Copy Of" folders make me want to punch babies.

 

[Minsc]

Give me a valid reason for needing to charge back something on Steam.

That's one way to end this argument. I have no answer for me personally, that I wouldn't go through their support first. I'm assuming any issues would be handled properly in due time.

My fear is just that in a moment of weakness I use paypal during a holiday sale if my credit card becomes temporarily invalid in their system like it did last year, but now I know better and I'd just use another account.

Which is another thing I'm not sure about, whether or not in their ToS they can ban your account if you have multiple accounts, and if so if it's even enforced, as I ended up gifting my main account games from a second account when I couldn't make purchases last holiday season for some weird reason.

 

[arstal]

Give me a valid reason for needing to charge back something on Steam.

They accidentally add a 0 onto your charge ,causing an overdraft if you don't fix it in due time, and their support is being slow as hell, and Valve support is typically underfunded as is.

They sell a game that doesn't work on your computer at all, and refuse to refund the money.
(Gamer's Bill of Rights- and despite the claims with Elemental- Stardock refunds 100% on those instances)

Banning for multiple accounts would be even more ridiculous- but they wouldn't do it, as it would deny revenue- this is why MMO's tend to not do this. cheaters getting new accounts is a source of revenue.

To protect yourself, you can always get a new account for each game you buy- and I know some who do that. It's ridiculous to do this, but Steam's policies are equally ridiculous to me.

The problems people have had with their accounts are precisely because certain middlemen (like paypal) who are not bound by banking and distance selling legislations (they're not banks or credit card companies) DO chargeback as a first resort.

It doesn't seem to me - at ALL - that they are trying to prevent legitimate use of chargebacks (ie the use pertaining to credit card fraud for which the legislation exists and for which it IS a consumer right).

The first thing is why Paypal should be boycotted. I'd use Steam before I'd use Paypal. At least Steam has an interest in doing the right thing.

However, it doesn't matter what their intent is- the fact is they are denying a legitimate consumer protection through bully-boy tactics (and above posts have said it's intentionally using market power inequality). No reasonable consumer can defend such tactics.

I agree it's not the first tool to use, but that doesn't mean it's a tool you never use.

 

[Fugu]

Back up the folder of the version you want to play?

The prevalence of automatic patching makes this impossible if you are looking for a version that is not current.

So the extra 30 seconds it will take you to move and verify a backup versus a folder is a deal-breaker? Gotcha.

That wasn't the subject of my post at all. Someone said that it was just as easy to transfer a Steam game; it's not. My argument is that Steam offers me all of these inconveniences and no conveniences, so why would I use it?

As for the internet argument, the internet connection is just the equivalent of a CD/DVD check. Physical media requires that you always have the disk, Steam requires that you always have an internet connection. The latter is more convenient these days by far, I can't think of a single reason why you would keep a computer around that isn't connected to the internet in all honesty.

If it's more convenient for you, good on you. It's not for me; I have a computer up north where there is no internet access. I'm also real good at keeping track of my discs, so that's never an issue.

My point had nothing to do with whether or not you were being honest. Rather that Diablo 2 is a game from 10 years ago. Modern games will almost certainly provide a proper modding interface which doesn't necessitate the kind of duplication demonstrated in the above screenshot. Either way this is largely irrelevant anyway because Diablo 2 isn't even available on Steam, so your oddly specific requirements for it have sweet fanny-adams to do with the topic at hand.

Any game that has significant patches will always, always have a dissenting community that either requires or prefers an older patch. Modern games are not immune from this simply because they address one concern and I assure you the problem of having people who disagree with balance patches will not go away; now, with automatic patching (and required updates to play online, but that's entirely outside of the scope of this thread), a player has a more difficult time accomplishing this.

Also, for the love of all things good in this world, organise your folders better. Those "Copy Of" folders make me want to punch babies.

sweet fanny-adams to do with the topic at hand.

 

[coopolon]

merchants have to protect themselves from dickhead customers who abuse the chargeback system.

Merchants already have ways to protect themselves. When you dispute a charge with your credit company, they don't just say "Hey, thanks for letting us know, here's your $100 back," they investigate the claim, investigate who is making the charge, etc. and they don't always side with the customer. And both times I've done chargebacks, I've actually had to sign forms, etc. which I imagine if I lied on I could be held liable. Somehow plenty of other major vendors, including online ones, manage to get by without having absurd policies about chargebacks, what is so different about Valve other than the fact that they feel comfortable being bullies because they have such a successful product?

Give me a valid reason for needing to charge back something on Steam.

One can easily conceive of a variety of reasons. Valve makes mistakes, perhaps not as often as other companies do, but they're not perfect. The VAC banning is a perfect example. What if I bought MW2, got VAC banned even though I knew I hadn't been hacking, contacted Valve to protest the claim, got told I was a cheater and deserved to be punished. I think that might be a legitimate reason to do a chargeback if you bought the game in the last 30 days, although I'd check with my credit company to make sure that met their definitions of unacceptable behavior before making a decision.

At the same time, Valve has a very good record of resolving problems amicably and hopefully that will continue. For that reason, I'm okay buying games on Steam (I own probably close to 120 by now), but I still think this is an unreasonable policy that should be changed. And it's one of the reasons I am very reluctant to buy anything more than $15-20 that is tied to Steam. I don't know anything about law, but I'd actually be curious to see if someone sued what the result would be. The courts would probably side with Valve, and I know TOS blah blah blah, but it'd still be interesting. (Again, I am woefully ignorant here, I am in no way trying to say Valve is doing anything illegal, I'm just curious.)

Edit: And just because Valve has a good track record doesn't mean they will continue to perform as well. Several things they've done in the last year have seemed to me like incredibly dick moves uncharacteristic of the best buddy Valve image some hobbyists like to cultivate. I'm not saying they will become corporate assholes, but not knowing any of them personally, I don't have any reason to know they won't either.

 

[brain_stew]

Steam hasn't used just 15mb of ram for years. I had to upgrade my machine because that bloated mess was chugging my machine.

You can't add features and expect the footprint to remain the same. I'm currently on 100mb just for having friends list and a chat window open.

Its using 18MB here and that's after being logged in for over a day.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Fugu, it's not only just as easy to move the install around it's the exact same process :lol Copy folder, select target, paste.

Anyway, I give up. You have insanely specific requirements which make Steam a poor choice for you, I understand that now. Good luck in all your future endeavours. For the record my comment about your folders was an attempt to inject some levity into the discussion by making fun of myself for being anal-retentive about the way people organise their PCs, so I apologise unreservedly if you took offense.

 

[Fugu]

Fugu, it's not only just as easy to move the install around it's the exact same process :lol Copy folder, select target, paste.

Anyway, I give up. You have insanely specific requirements which make Steam a poor choice for you, I understand that now. Good luck in all your future endeavours. For the record my comment about your folders was an attempt to inject some levity into the discussion by making fun of myself for being anal-retentive about the way people organise their PCs, so I apologise unreservedly if you took offense.

Offended? Of course not, I just thought it would be fun to reply with your own post. My computer is a giant mess, actually.

I am not trying to convince others not to use Steam; I came into this thread to reply that it was, in fact, very easily possible to be a PC gamer without using Steam. My primary complaint with Steam comes down to a lack of ownership of my own games and it's unlikely that that will ever change. That Steam is also entirely inconvenient for me without offering me anything in return (I don't want a client, I don't want auto patching) contributes to why I don't use Steam. The reason this is a pointless argument is because I know very well how Steam works (I have used it before, y'know) and I know that it's not what I want.

Games that have a Steam and a non-Steam version introduce problems.

 

[brain_stew]

It also requires an internet connection and subsequent connections to Steam to keep it up-to-date. I run LANs with up to sixteen people; most of these people do not use Steam regularly. It is also easier to back up a game that does not use Steam than it is to back up one that does.

Complete BS. Backing up a Steam game is as simple as copy/pasting, and that gives you a backup of the latest version. Backing up a disc game can be a huge pita if a game uses any sort of copy protection (and they invariably do) and even if I manage to back it up I've got to burn it to a CD or use a virtual drive to install it next time and then after that I have to go and download all the game patches.

Easy backup and transfer of games from one machine to the next is one of the biggest advantages of Steam. Its saved me dozens of hours in the past and will continue to do so, reinstalling my entire disc library when reinstalling an OS or moving to new hardware is a huge pita and can end up wasting an entire day. The net result, is that 9 times out of 10 I just don't bother which means I have easier and quicker access to games I own on Steam and thus I'm more likely to play them.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

However, it doesn't matter what their intent is- the fact is they are denying a legitimate consumer protection through bully-boy tactics (and above posts have said it's intentionally using market power inequality). No reasonable consumer can defend such tactics.

I'm sorry, I cannot see this viewpoint at all.

Any business that deals with accounts (ANY business, in ANY field) has best practices to conbat fraudulent usage of accounts, and best practice is to stop any use of that account untilt he matter is resolved as soon as is possible to prevent the consumer having additional fraudulent transactions made against them.

When you issue a chargeback, you are stating that you have been billed for a transaction that you never made, or were misled into making a transaction that misrepresented itself.

That is FRAUD. It is a clear legal term. How do you handle that as a business?

Allow the account to continue with nothing wrong with it, when the implication is that it has been hijacked (as purchasing games on an account subject to fraud is pointless if you do not have access to it) so that it can be sold on eBay?

Seriously, I can only assume you have never had to deal with credit card fraud in any respect to assume that Valves policy is some kind of 'we're big, we do wtf we want' customer treatment. It is the only policy you CAN have with what is effectively a service-based subscription business model.

What companies do NOT lock an account when a claim that it has been hijacked has been made until the matter is resolved?

You dislike Steam, and we know that, but to make any sort of implication that they are somehow attempting to abuse customer rights with this policy (which ironically is in place for the exact opposite reason) is - at best - paranoid.

I personally would have far less confidence in a platform that allows fraudulent transactions to be made indefinitely on an account with full access to my credit card details and without any safety net of having physcial goods shipped to my registered address.

I agree it's not the first tool to use, but that doesn't mean it's a tool you never use.

How is it a tool that you can never use?

It is a tool that has consequences for use, and if you chargebacked for an entirely legitimate reason that then caused your account to be locked unfairly, you have a lawsuit and legitimate claims for compensation if Steam try and 'blackmail' you into paying fraudulent fees.

I have however NEVER seen any complaints even implying this to be the case on any gaming forum I have ever visited in the entire time I have been using Steam (which is a long ass time without any problems) and something like that would - very quickly - be very common knowledge.

EDIT:

Merchants already have ways to protect themselves. When you dispute a charge with your credit company, they don't just say "Hey, thanks for letting us know, here's your $100 back,"

No, some credit card companies do EXACTLY THAT, and most do when dealing with larger corporate accounts (ie Paypal, which is where most of the people bitching about this particular topic should actually be aiming their ire)

Somehow plenty of other major vendors, including online ones, manage to get by without having absurd policies about chargebacks

Who?

Name them.

Online only stores that supply no physical product, and tie purchases to an account that saves credit card data. For any product.

 

[SturokBGD]

To protect yourself, you can always get a new account for each game you buy- and I know some who do that.

Wowee, that's some serious George Orwell shit right there.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

You should see the drives of my 3 computers and my Dropbox. Bloody immaculate. My bedroom on the other hand...

Yeah fair enough. You're right that it's possible, but in my opinion it's undesirable, while in yours it's the only option. Thinking about it I guess that this just reinforces that one of the best things about PC gaming is that it's not one-size-fits-all approach to the hobby. So PC gaming wins again.

 

[poppabk]

Merchants already have ways to protect themselves. When you dispute a charge with your credit company, they don't just say "Hey, thanks for letting us know, here's your $100 back," they investigate the claim, investigate who is making the charge, etc. and they don't always side with the customer.

The problem is if they have greater than 2% (international) chargebacks (regardless of viliity) then they get placed onto a monitoring program where they are charged $100 for every chargeback that is received (regardless of whether it is valid). This is for Visa, I am sure the other banks have similar regulations.
I'm guessing at some point chargebacks got so bad for steam due to people trying to scam free games that they got hit with some hefty fees.

 

[Fugu]

Complete BS. Backing up a Steam game is as simple as copy/pasting, and that gives you a backup of the latest version. Backing up a disc game can be a huge pita if a game uses any sort of copy protection (and they invariably do) and even if I manage to back it up I've got to burn it to a CD or use a virtual drive to install it next time and then after that I have to go and download all the game patches.

Huh? How is this in any way easier? Steam requires you to have the client on both computers, and non-Steam requires you to have the disc (but only if you needed the disc in the first place). You only have to download the game patches if you didn't have them in the first place. I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.

Easy backup and transfer of games from one machine to the next is one of the biggest advantages of Steam. Its saved me dozens of hours in the past and will continue to do so, reinstalling my entire disc library when reinstalling an OS or moving to new hardware is a huge pita and can end up wasting an entire day. The net result, is that 9 times out of 10 I just don't bother which means I have easier and quicker access to games I own on Steam and thus I'm more likely to play them.

Name me a game that doesn't store the save files in its root folder or within My Documents.

EDIT: I missed Appdata, but that's becoming commonplace enough now that most PC gamers know to look there for their saves if they can't find them elsewhere.

 

[Fugu]

You should see the drives of my 3 computers and my Dropbox. Bloody immaculate. My bedroom on the other hand...

Yeah fair enough. You're right that it's possible, but in my opinion it's undesirable, while in yours it's the only option. Thinking about it I guess that this just reinforces that one of the best things about PC gaming is that it's not one-size-fits-all approach to the hobby. So PC gaming wins again.

I am gradually phasing out my internet-less computer and that really hasn't changed my mind; I doubt that I will ever become a card-carrying Steam user.

I fully agree though that it's great that people have the choice to use it or not use it. I just hope that it stays that way.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

The problem is if they have greater than 2% (international) chargebacks (regardless of viliity) then they get placed onto a monitoring program where they are charged $100 for every chargeback that is received (regardless of whether it is valid). This is for Visa, I am sure the other banks have similar regulations.
I'm guessing at some point chargebacks got so bad for steam due to people trying to scam free games that they got hit with some hefty fees.

Online only businesses are usually targetted by organised crime for exactly this reason; iTunes was at one point the most common way of cashing in on stolen credit cards due to its nature of having no real way to tie a user of a credit card to the actual owner of a credit card.

I'm sure Steam has been hit by this hard too, especially as you can have multiple accounts on a single credit card, stack them up with purchases then sell them on for cents on the dollar.

EDIT:

Name me a game that doesn't store the save files in its root folder or within My Documents.

Actually, an annoyingly large number of games do hide their saves in multiple random places, including system folders hidden by default as I discovered when I formatted to Windows 7 >:|

 

[1-D_FTW]

Wowee, that's some serious George Orwell shit right there.

I've used paypal balance to buy some guys before, but when Steam is going crazy in the first couple minutes of a Christmas sale, I'll just wait 10 or 15 minutes till the servers have settled down again. I think a 15 minute cool down period is about as extreme as you need to get.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Name me a game that doesn't store the save files in its root folder or within My Documents.

I hate games that save games into a folder in the root of My Documents or Documents rather than the Saved Games folder.

But even worse are games that save somewhere in AppData. Seriously.

There are games that save in the Steam saves folder too.

 

[coopolon]

Who?

Name them.

Online only stores that supply no physical product, and tie purchases to an account that saves credit card data. For any product.

iTunes is the only comparable store I have personal experience with. Yes, I know it's part of Apple who ships products too, but the itunes store itself is a little like Steam (yes they probably do more business, but that also means more chargebacks), although I'll admit there are differences.

But someone used my account which had a CC tied to it to buy a bunch of iphone games, I contacted apple and said I didn't buy these things (I don't even own an iphone), they pretty much said fuck you (here Valve probably would have been nicer). I did a chargeback, it took about two weeks, I got my money back and the games were removed from my account. During those two weeks I was still able to watch and listen to content that is DRM'd up, I was even able to authorize a new computer to listen to music and television shows tied to the same account.

 

[Fugu]

But even worse are games that save somewhere in AppData. Seriously.

I was lumping this in with My Documents but then I remembered that they're not really the same place. It's seriously dumb to put your saves in a hidden folder; it doesn't seem to happen too much though.

 

[poppabk]

Name me a game that doesn't store the save files in its root folder or within My Documents.

Looking at my users/me/appdata/local folder
Mafia II (demo at least)
Burnout Paradise
FlatOut ultimate carnage
Supreme commander
sins of a solar empire
AvP classic
Saints row 2
how about in users/appdata/roaming
MLB2K10
NBA2K10
Beat Hazard
Bioshock
Torchlight
Assassins creed
Or in users/me/saved games
MoH:airborne

 

[arstal]

I'm sorry, I cannot see this viewpoint at all.

Any business that deals with accounts (ANY business, in ANY field) has best practices to conbat fraudulent usage of accounts, and best practice is to stop any use of that account untilt he matter is resolved as soon as is possible to prevent the consumer having additional fraudulent transactions made against them.

You dislike Steam, and we know that, but to make any sort of implication that they are somehow attempting to abuse customer rights with this policy (which ironically is in place for the exact opposite reason) is - at best - paranoid.

How is it a tool that you can never use?

It is a tool that has consequences for use, and if you chargebacked for an entirely legitimate reason that then caused your account to be locked unfairly, you have a lawsuit and legitimate claims for compensation if Steam try and 'blackmail' you into paying fraudulent fees.

Only Steam locks you out of things that you paid for legitimately as a consequence of a disputed purchase. If they cannot do it some other way, maybe their DRM model is flawed and wrong.

Stardock will lock you out, but can't ban you from what you paid for. If the type of crime described above was widespread, Stardock would be hit before Steam, due to being an easier target. I'd feel more confident about a service that if shit happens won't take my stuff from me.

As for suing Valve, I bet there's a mandatory binding arbitration agreement in the EULA somewhere (which is a kangaroo court that tends to side with businessees 95%+ of the time)- to prevent you from doing that. Either way, the cost of suing > the cost of most Steam accounts.

It's not that I dislike Steam- it's that I feel that their business practices are potentially anti-consumer moreso then their competition, and that they get away with it. Steam's draconian policies may be the only way you THINK it can be, but it isn't. Also, why should the consequences for using a chargeback be things you paid for?

RL example: OK, I swindle your bank account. While you complain to the police, because you could be making this up, I'll take your car also. That's what Steam does.

I don't think Valve is out to be evil- but I think they set up their system in a way that would allow them to be evil very easily, and in a way their competitors don't.

 

[Fugu]

Looking at my users/me/appdata/local folder
Mafia II (demo at least)
Burnout Paradise
FlatOut ultimate carnage
Supreme commander
sins of a solar empire
AvP classic
Saints row 2
how about in users/appdata/roaming
MLB2K10
NBA2K10
Beat Hazard
Bioshock
Torchlight
Assassins creed
Or in users/me/saved games
MoH:airborne

Note the edit. I was including appdata as being in documents and settings but then I wrote my documents.

 

[brain_stew]

Huh? How is this in any way easier? Steam requires you to have the client on both computers, and non-Steam requires you to have the disc (but only if you needed the disc in the first place). You only have to download the game patches if you didn't have them in the first place. I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.

You were talking about making backups of your games. I can do this with any game on Steam with a simple copy/paste action (and I get to backup the latest version) but with disc games, its complete pot luck. Sometimes you can create a working ISO, sometimes you can't, often you'll be required to use some very dodgy software. So if my discs are damaged or lost, then I'm fucked, and even if I have a backup, I'm going to have to waste half an hour or more to get it installed this is not the case with my Steam games, I can copy/paste the data and be done with it.

 

[coopolon]

You were talking about making backups of your games. I can do this with any game on Steam with a simple copy/paste action (and I get to backup the latest version) but with disc games, its complete pot luck. Sometimes you can create a working ISO, sometimes you can't, often you'll be required to use some very dodgy software. So if my discs are damaged or lost, then I'm fucked, and even if I have a backup, I'm going to have to waste half an hour or more to get it installed this is not the case with my Steam games, I can copy/paste the data and be done with it.

trying to restore Steam backup games at least was a crapshoot. I haven't done it in several months, but earlier this year I had to reformat my PC several times, and I would say well over 50% of the time when I tried to restore a Steam game from a back up (either just copy and paste or actually using the Steam backup utility) Steam would just try to redownload the entire game. Also frequently happens when you try to install Steamworks games from discs.

Edit: Actually, with copy and paste, the problem wasn't redownloading, the problem was games weren't getting entered into the registry appropriately and stuff started getting weird to the point where I had to redownload the games. the backup utility was what frequently had to redownload stuff.

 

[Fredescu]

How do you store your home videos and 10MP+ pictures off your camera/camcorder? Maybe you don't use a camcorder much, but video can be even larger than game images, and I can easily shoot 500MB+ worth of pictures in a day and there's no free Steam service to save it all.

I'm just curious what people who don't trust physical media do for storing their most irreplaceable memories.

You don't back them up? That stuff should be stored in at least two places, and using offsite storage for the more important stuff. If it's only stored in one physical place it's temporary at best.

 

[Stallion Free]

And just because Valve has a good track record doesn't mean they will continue to perform as well. Several things they've done in the last year have seemed to me like incredibly dick moves uncharacteristic of the best buddy Valve image some hobbyists like to cultivate. I'm not saying they will become corporate assholes, but not knowing any of them personally, I don't have any reason to know they won't either.

Do enlighten me.

I am gradually phasing out my internet-less computer and that really hasn't changed my mind; I doubt that I will ever become a card-carrying Steam user.

I fully agree though that it's great that people have the choice to use it or not use it. I just hope that it stays that way.

Things are going the way of DD so within a couple years it's very likely that you only have digital storefronts to get PC games from.

trying to restore Steam backup games at least was a crapshoot. I haven't done it in several months, but earlier this year I had to reformat my PC several times, and I would say well over 50% of the time when I tried to restore a Steam game from a back up (either just copy and paste or actually using the Steam backup utility) Steam would just try to redownload the entire game. Also frequently happens when you try to install Steamworks games from discs.

Edit: Actually, with copy and paste, the problem wasn't redownloading, the problem was games weren't getting entered into the registry appropriately and stuff started getting weird to the point where I had to redownload the games. the backup utility was what frequently had to redownload stuff.

Sounds like it's likely an issue on your end. I copy-pasted a 1.2 TB Steam games folder back into the fresh install after a format (I resinstall Steam on my games drive so that it does have the appropriate registry entries) and it worked flawlessly.

 

[brain_stew]

trying to restore Steam backup games at least was a crapshoot. I haven't done it in several months, but earlier this year I had to reformat my PC several times, and I would say well over 50% of the time when I tried to restore a Steam game from a back up (either just copy and paste or actually using the Steam backup utility) Steam would just try to redownload the entire game. Also frequently happens when you try to install Steamworks games from discs.

Edit: Actually, with copy and paste, the problem wasn't redownloading, the problem was games weren't getting entered into the registry appropriately and stuff started getting weird to the point where I had to redownload the games. the backup utility was what frequently had to redownload stuff.

I've done it at least half a dozen times an its worked perfectly every time. *Shrugs*

 

[coopolon]

I've done it at least half a dozen times an its worked perfectly every time. *Shrugs*

When you open the games up in steam after pasting them into the steamapps folder the games get added to your registry?

 

[1-D_FTW]

I've never had a single problem using the backup/restore feature of Steam either. Other than being slow to compress/decompress, it's had a 100 percent success rate for me.

Of course, I recently moved on to just copying the folder. Copied the folder onto a separate partition and didn't have to do a single thing to any file. Everything moved over and worked flawlessly.

 

[brain_stew]

When you open the games up in steam after pasting them into the steamapps folder the games get added to your registry?

Yes.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I don't even move my folders, I just set Steam to not start automatically and symlink my steamapps folder to a network or portable drive folder depending on the computer. Feels good man.

 

[coopolon]

Do enlighten me.

L4D2, VAC bans, and DOTA were the ones I was thinking of.

I've never had a single problem using the backup/restore feature of Steam either. Other than being slow to compress/decompress, it's had a 100 percent success rate for me.

Of course, I recently moved on to just copying the folder. Copied the folder onto a separate partition and didn't have to do a single thing to any file. Everything moved over and worked flawlessly.

Yes.

Awesome, glad to hear it's working better then. Hopefully next time I have to use it I won't experience the same problems

I don't even move my folders, I just set Steam to not start automatically and symlink my steamapps folder to a network or portable drive folder depending on the computer. Feels good man.

This is a very good idea.

 

[The Technomancer]

L4D2, VAC bans, and DOTA were the ones I was thinking of.

You mean the time they decided to release a sequel a year after and fans were butthurt until they realized how much new content and features were in the new game?
Or the time they accidentally banned MW2 players, and so apologized profusely and gave them all copies of Left 4 Dead 2?
Or the time that they hired the developer of a popular mod to take it and turn it into a full project, which is exactly how stuff like Team Fortress 2 and Portal were created?

 

[Stallion Free]

L4D2, VAC bans, and DOTA were the ones I was thinking of.

The only issue I see there were the bans and that was fixed.

 

[Fredescu]

The DoTA trademark thing is definitely morally shady, but there's a thread on that. L4D2? A new game, oh no, save us :lol

 

[jambo]

Clutchin' for straws!

 

[Stallion Free]

Clutchin' for straws!

Meh, that was a long time ago when they were coming up with ornate hypothetical situations.

 

[Araxen]

Steam is the only place I buy digital games from on my PC. I feel they are the only store I don't have to worry about them going bankrupt and losing all my games. Piece of mind is a big sticking point for me with digital goods.

 

[coopolon]

Nevermind.

 

[Gully State]

If you want to think of it that way, then all games are long term rentals. Cartridges go bad, so do discs...Hardware including consoles/software become obsolete....etc.. etc..

 

[SlickVic]

I didn't use Steam a whole lot the past year since it was blocked on my campus network and managed just fine. Found a lot of games on sale at Amazon/Amazon Marketplace and GoGamer. The games I really wanted to play Day 1 (like Mass Effect 2) thankfully did not require Steamworks so I got RDD from Amazon and played it at launch. Still, I never avoided Steam outright. If they had a good deal (as they often do), I'd just buy it off their webstore and download it when I went home. My campus recently unblocked Steam though so it's no longer an issue to me.