Ok, then that's one qualm I have with W8 dispelled. One.
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PCGamesN: "Why I'm uninstalling Windows 8"
- Thread starter alexandros
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Ok, then that's one qualm I have with W8 dispelled. One.
Prophet Steve
Member
It is not easily ignorable though. using Windows 8 Apps and every time when you would use the start button in Windows 7 (which is a lot for me), you are going to be presented the Metro part.
David H Wong
Banned
The thing about it being "faster" - so gaining 5 seconds on boot time is worth having to completely re-learn all of these totally arbitrary changes?
Maybe it's just the way I use it, but I don't notice Windows 7 being slow at anything, is the goal to make it take half a second to launch my email instead of the 1.5 seconds it takes now? And this makes it worth me spending half an hour trying to find the "off" button because they arbitrarily moved it to a completely unintuitive place?
Maybe it's just the way I use it, but I don't notice Windows 7 being slow at anything, is the goal to make it take half a second to launch my email instead of the 1.5 seconds it takes now? And this makes it worth me spending half an hour trying to find the "off" button because they arbitrarily moved it to a completely unintuitive place?
Prophet Steve
Member
I would use apps... because I like software or something? Even when I do not like Metro, there are probably apps that are enjoyable or useful for me.
The ability to global search anything without leaving the screen I was working on, and even the ability to drag and drop from there? Example: I'm writing a mail, and I want to attach a file I don't remember where it was located. In Win7 you can just hit the Win Key, search for it and directly drag-drop it to the mail window to insta-attach it. In Win8? You have that "Share" button in the charm bar but surprise! It doesn't interact with Desktop apps... and it doesn't show you a file path either so you can easily browse for it from the attach file dialog itself.
Yeah, the search change stinks. I only ever used it to launch programs though so losing that functionality while shitty isn't a terribly huge deal to me. I'm sure on launch day there will be a universal search utility from someone.
Yeah, but why wouldn't you just use the desktop alternative if you don't like the Metro interface?
From what I've seen (which is admittedly very little) it seems like immediately after startup you hit Win+D and go about your life with a bit snappier, slightly tweaked Windows 7?
Yeah, but why wouldn't you just use the desktop alternative if you don't like the Metro interface?
From what I've seen (which is admittedly very little) it seems like immediately after startup you hit Win+D and go about your life with a bit snappier, slightly tweaked Windows 7?
Dreams-Visions
Member
When you click that button it gives you an option to save the email as a draft or delete it.
All metro apps have to have a background/icon that fills the whole tile, which is why the desktop tile (and any other app) will fill their tile. Of course desktop programmes/apps were never programmed with metro in mind so all they have is a little icon. If you were to try to fill the whole tile with the small icon, obviously it would become pixelated.
With that said, that screenshot is from an old build. In the final build the desktop programmes look a little better.
Vinsanity.
Member
...and the annual award for weirdest website name is: "PCgamesN"
Of All Trades
Member
But pinned taskbar programs do that too, and faster. And I can pin things within the r-click menu. I literally never go into the start menu unless I'm trying to find something obscure.
Isn't it just as likely that the users are being too stubborn to attempt to learn a new paradigm? Considering that one's Windows 8 workflow can remain virtually identical to their Windows 7 workflow outside of clicking "Desktop" or pressing Win + D when they first boot up their computer, I just don't get the complaint. Elements of every interface can and will be unintuitive from a cold start.
Windows 8 doesn't have that assumption, considering the easy-to-use mouse hotspots that allow you to access everything that the keyboard shortcuts do. And there are only three of them! If it's explained (either by the OS or a third-party) on first use, then I fully believe anyone could pick it up. Some folks won't want to learn or get used to it, of course, and that's fine - they can stay with Windows 7 if they value that familiarity. But it isn't any more difficult to learn or teach these new features from scratch when compared to features that have existed within previous version of Windows.
Windows 8 is different, yes, but that doesn't automatically make it worse.
the only thing the start screen does not do that i have found is the recently used application list. Other than that, it does everything else.
Ya...I don't get the freaking out. The programs I use I have pinned to the taskbar, which still exists so I'm good.
lastflowers
Banned
That was the most bizarre complaint I'd seen as well. Steam's taskbar pin is amazing. My most common MP games are pinned to the steam icon, so I almost never have to open up the library.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Wrong, Windows icons haven't been fixed-res bitmaps for quite a while, try it yourself, go to a Windows 7 desktop and use Ctrl-Mouse ScrollWheel to scale up the icons and see for yourself.
secretanchitman
Member
i think it'll be fine. ive used it on windows 7 for a really long time without any issue and the developers are pretty fast when it comes to updating it (also, its open source).
LightofRohan
Member
Eh, you'll get used to it. And the metro stuff seems really optional so it wont be a problem, but it might work better for some things. I remember when I first started Windows 7, I loathed the Icons only (and stacked icons) of the task bar. So I reverted it to the orginal way of showing Text and each window gets its own tab, pretty quickly though I came around to just using the icons and stacked windows. Its much nicer. It could be the same for 8, but I wont ever get it 
secretanchitman
Member
It really, really isn't. Usability != obviousness.
Having to learn a new operating system for 15 minutes doesn't automatically make it unusable.
How about no? You know how there are these Windows 8 videos where people who don't know a thing about Windows 8 are put in front of a PC and fumble around for half an hour? Would you really expect better results putting them in front of a command line interface? Seriously?
And this is why I am not even slightly worried about Metro.
I used to do phone tech support for Bell Canada... I wish that call center still had the tech support line of business so I could hear stories of the first users calling in with Windows 8 trying to get their internet connected, or troubleshooting issues. There would be a lot of "Sorry, we don't support Windows 8 over the phone yet, we suggest calling Microsoft" for a while on this one... I suspect you can't even wing it like you could between the last few.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Ok, sorry I couldn't respond earlier. Is this supposed to be efficient?
Windows Key > Shutdown
Windows Key > Control Panel
That's efficient!
vasametropolis
Member
Besides Metro, I think people are missing what a lot of the negative comments have been surrounding Windows 8. Developers and hardware manufacturers are not in love with it because it's beginning to try and close down windows.
Sure, you don't have to make Metro style apps... but at the end of the day you kind of do. Since Metro is the first thing people see, there's a good chance a large percentage of them will adopt it in some way or another. These developers don't have much of a choice because they could miss a large part of the market if they ignore these users. Microsoft is forcing restrictions on these apps, which we only assume will get worse if the Xbox is any indication of where we could head.
Manufacturers don't love it because Microsoft is venturing into PC hardware manufacture, competing directly with their partners at a considerable advantage as it's their OS.
You should skip Windows 8 because it is the beginning of a possible closed platform. Metro crap aside, this is worse. Don't use it.
Apple is guilty of this too, minus the forced tablet interface. People are trying to close down your computer bit by bit, and if you have the power to avoid it, you should.
Sure, you don't have to make Metro style apps... but at the end of the day you kind of do. Since Metro is the first thing people see, there's a good chance a large percentage of them will adopt it in some way or another. These developers don't have much of a choice because they could miss a large part of the market if they ignore these users. Microsoft is forcing restrictions on these apps, which we only assume will get worse if the Xbox is any indication of where we could head.
Manufacturers don't love it because Microsoft is venturing into PC hardware manufacture, competing directly with their partners at a considerable advantage as it's their OS.
You should skip Windows 8 because it is the beginning of a possible closed platform. Metro crap aside, this is worse. Don't use it.
Apple is guilty of this too, minus the forced tablet interface. People are trying to close down your computer bit by bit, and if you have the power to avoid it, you should.
GayForMaster
Banned
Thank you Tim Edwards.
Windows 8 is terrible. I wish I'd VMWare'd it instead of sparing a 40 gig partition for it.
Windows 8 is terrible. I wish I'd VMWare'd it instead of sparing a 40 gig partition for it.
you have no idea what you are talking about. I do.
If you can use an interface from the get go without having to do any "training" or using some constant reminders... or by memorizing functions... then the OS works. The UI works, UX is good. If things are clear, concise and easy to understand within steps then it works.
If you launch an app and have no clue in how to close it, then it fails. right from the get go. WinRT can get away with it because there's only one button. But on the desktop? LOL
I just launched an app for my dad... he eventually hit the bottom portion of the screen and out popped the app bar with a home button. He pressed it... it just went to the app main menu. He could not figure out how to close the app. This is an example of UI and UX fail. I hand my ipad to my dad, he figures out how to close the app within 5 seconds. I hand him a keyboard and mouse and launch the desktop app... open up my computer and asked him to close it. He figured it out within 5 seconds.
My dad hasn't touched a computer since the screens were green and monochromatic so he's a great test case.
Usability is obviousness. If you can't figure out how to something then the operating system is working against you, not for or with you. It's a fairly basic premise. Remember the scope of these operating systems is HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
Obviousness is everything.
I did it. Everyone I know in tech did it. My mom can't figure out windows 8 and she used to use DOS.
Computers were kinda popular before the invention of GUI if you didn't know.
Just because there's pretty graphics doesn't mean it's automatically easier to use.
That's pretty sexy.
My mistake. But then again trying to scale up desktop icons isn't something I do on a regular basis
I know your opinion on Windows 8 and nothing I say will change that, but why not just press the Windows key on the keyboard? You say WinRT can get away with it because of the Windows key on the front, similarly the iPad can do it with the home button. What's the difference between pressing a button on the devices themselves versus pressing the Windows key on the keyboard? It's not like one is necessarily more obvious than the other.
br0ken_shad0w
Member
This is the same reason why I don't want to switch. I can accomplish what I need in 1/6 of the space with the start menu and it doesn't detract from what I'm currently looking or doing.
I don't care how better or easier Metro is, that's something I just can't adjust to no matter how many times Win8 users tell me otherwise.
One button sitting by itself is a lot more obvious than another button among 100+ other buttons of similar size and shape. Non-power users rarely use the windows key, if ever.
Haunted
Member
On a purely practical level, I realised that 90% of my problems are with the concept of "Windows 8 apps". If the metro screen just replaces the start menu, I suppose it's not all that different except for one extra click to get to the desktop.
I mean, still, obviously that's not a good reason to upgrade "if you ignore what's new it's almost just as good as the old one", but yeah.
And then we get into the whole principle debate...
and yeah, that, too.
Every time some marketing person says "just like on your Xbox" or "just like on your smartphone" when referring to a Windows 8 feature, I cringe a little.
Computers are complex systems. They have to be learned. The fact that you choose to learn something by poking at it instead of RTFMing is terrible. As a programmer, this mentality is absolutely infuriating. I design a consistent, well-document application and instead of spending 2 minutes to learn by reading, people spend 2 weeks sending me the same dumbass questions over and over until they're done with what they need to do. I'll get the same fucking questions exactly 1 year later. I don't have a manual people need to read. Everything they need to know is right there on the screen, right next to the shit they're wantonly clicking away at.
Nothing about a computer is intuitive to a human. Everything has to be learned. When people say "intuitive" they really mean "like that other thing I used before and already know".
Not only do I not believe that you were mastering DOS via help or /? at 4 years of age (well before most kids know their ABCs), I don't believe a kid who could do that could become absolutely lost in Windows 8.
ALL interfaces and designs have to be explained, detailed, and taught. To say that Windows 8 takes more than 2 minute of explanation to anyone who is familiar with Windows 7 or a modern phone is absolute horse shit. If you have an interface that needs zero explanation than you either have an incredibly simple set of actions a user can perform or you have simply designed it to look like things people are already familiar with - things that have been detailed and explained to them in the past.
Windows 8's UI isn't a failure any more than any modern tablet or phone UI is. Grandma doesn't need the Windows key or shortcuts to do anything. Those are for experienced users. If you need to find something, you just search for it, in the simplest manner possible. Start. Typing. Nothing a normal user would need to do is "buried". Start. Typing.
And Windows has always hidden away plenty of things. Windows has always had undocumented shit to tinker with. The fucking registry is pretty much the definition of "Hide shit away so normal users don't fuck shit up because they don't know what the fuck they're doing because they're too damned lazy to RTFM". Windows has always hidden stuff away, and it's for the benefit of users. Advanced users who want extra control and system administrators do all sorts of shit on a daily basis that normal users consider to be "magic".
You're intentionally confusing "I refuse to take 2 minutes to learn where the things regular users need are" and "hidden".
You're right. An average user only learns what they frequently use. And they only use what they need. An average user will learn how to do what they need to do over time. I don't give a shit that my dad doesn't remember how to create a picture-in-picture effect when he's making DVDs of family videos. And neither does he. Because he doesn't use it and doesn't need it. If he wants to do it he can ask me and I can show him and he'll write down notes on how to do it if he thinks he'll use it in the future. You're acting as if people are incapable of learning when the problem is people are lazy and will learn as little as possible to do what they need to do.
Yes, people should know how to type. My dad doesn't know what the fuck Nero Vision, Nero Recode, Nero SoundTrax, etc. all do. He opens up the Start menu and types in "DVD" and sees "Create a DVD using Nero..." or whatever the fuck it says. You don't need to remember actual executable filenames, or even program names.
Yes, there are two layers. And the vast majority of users will be perfectly fine spending the vast majority of their time in the dumbed down UI browsing the internet and looking at their Facebook updates. And that UI is far simpler, easier, and more intuitive than the traditional desktop.
Windows 8 is streamlined for "core" functions. The vast majority of users will be fine sitting in Metro all day long. People will have to learn the nuances of interface by using it just as they had to for their phone. People will be just fine, and everyone crying about it is just yelling at the wind. For you, the desktop is still there. I know I plan to be on the desktop 100% of the time, as I absolutely fucking hate the new interface. But that doesn't make it a bad interface by any means. It's going to be great for the masses once people like you stop scaring them into thinking it's a unnavigable minefield.
I'll pay $40 for better load times and supposedly better general performance.
Haunted
Member
I'd never pay money for the first version of any Windows OS, but that's a different discussion altogether.
Um... it is. One, on RT or iPad or iPhone - is one button. That's it. That's all you see on the front of the device except for the screen itself. One button. Now look at your keyboard - there's a lot more than one button. To someone unfamiliar with what to press, it's not obvious at all.My mistake. But then again trying to scale up desktop icons isn't something I do on a regular basis
I know your opinion on Windows 8 and nothing I say will change that, but why not just press the Windows key on the keyboard? You say WinRT can get away with it because of the Windows key on the front, similarly the iPad can do it with the home button. What's the difference between pressing a button on the devices themselves versus pressing the Windows key on the keyboard? It's not like one is necessarily more obvious than the other.
wtf... is this for real? share button instead of drag and drop??
KittyKittyBangBang
Member
All this hate because you dont want to learn how to use the Windows interface efficiently? Do you guys understand how easy it is to never EVER have to see the Metro UI? Sorry guys but the start button is for grandmas and babies and has been since XP. Grandmas and babies will probably like this interface more anyways.
I think this is all blown ridculously out of proportion and is really a non-factor. Its still Windows 7 at its core, which should be what matters.
I think this is all blown ridculously out of proportion and is really a non-factor. Its still Windows 7 at its core, which should be what matters.
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
Uno Venova
Banned
Everyone listen to this guy.
This looks awesome. Couple of questions for anyone that's used it (I haven't installed Win8 yet so I can't test it out myself just yet):
1. Does pressing the Windows key with classic shell installed launch the classic shell start menu, or the Metro start screen?
2. Does having classic shell installed still launch the Metro start screen when you click the bottom left of the screen, or will that just pop up the classic start menu?
I don't think there are windows in Metro, but you can have two apps side by side in some sort of 2/3rds one app, 1/3rd the other mode. Win8 includes a desktop mode, which is just like Windows 7 except for having no start button (unless you use classic shell) - so in that mode you still have multiple windows the same as with previous versions of Windows.
Amen.... this is a key point. You put a user in front of a mouse for the first time in windows and they had an equally hard time adapting..... what happened over the next 20 years we learned how to use it and the same thing will happen with metro because this is the interface for the next 20 years.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Sorry but that's just not true and is serious revisionism. Mice were already in use on Home computers (Amiga & Atari, Apple etc.) and PC's (i.e. GEM etc.) before Windows, the problem was that applications all had their own way of doing things, Windows didn't introduce the mouse to the PC user, it standardised it by making the GUI part of the PC operating system.
There was no major "sudden jump" from command line to GUI for PC users, it was more gradual than you allude to.
Sorry but I just don't get this whole "it's so hard to find" thing. Once you know what button to press (i.e. the one that has a Windows logo on it, that will always be near the bottom left hand corner) that's it. No matter how old/young/computer illiterate a person is surely they can remember one thing?
Yup, you cannot drag and drop stuff back and forth Desktop and Metro. I think not even from one Metro app to another, it's one of the first horrifyng surprises I found early on. Ok, so... well, here are the search results, now let's drag this Desktop app to the taskba-oh shit. Yes, you heard right: they completely got rid of one of the oldest and easiest to "catch" paradigms for file handling since GUIs were created, and probably one of the most useful, and replaced it with a button that roughly means "move this shit to this other app" that only works inside Metro, making Start Menu Search useless if you want to do something else that just "Open", or maybe "Pin to Metro Start".
Anecdotal evidence: I know some people (my mother is one of them) with Android phones that constantly forget that you can drop down the notification bar to check individual notifications and either open or dismiss them. And the status bar is ALWAYS there as a reminder you have pending stuff to check. Microsoft is expecting out of those same people to remember not only one but FOUR different swipes from different sides (top to close, right for charms, down for extra options (or right click with mouse), left for task switching) with NO reminder or visual cue at all. Recipe for disaster IMHO.
It is just as efficient as using the start menu to shutdown, same number of clicks. There are of course shortcut keys for the settings menu. Win i or something.
and searching for apps is just the same as 7. You can always pin the cp to the taskbar, startscreen, desktop or go to settings on the desktop or right click in the bottom right to get the cp.
Actually, it's not terrible at all. I don't ask questions and eventually I figure out everything. The most learned part about the OS is the direct (human) interface. Beyond that, interfaces ARE supposed to be intuitive. They have to be as transparent and as easy to access as possible. Have everything conveyed in a simple manner without overwhelming the operator (information condensation). For a lot of programmers, they don't understand ease of use, how much a few pixels can throw off UX. how a minor change can alter the use of something by orders of magnitude.
Manuals exist for two reasons. Either for reference, or the program wasn't designed well enough. Typically it's both. There is a lot of thought and work that has to go into making a UI. There is quite a difference between learning and having to be told. That's what intuitive means. Propagating relevant info into a manual and obscuring this data as well as the path to the denouement is counterintuitive and counterproductive.
I didn't say i was lost. And FYI I did master DOS at age 4. I was making games in QuickBasic by age 8. (Primarily text based games with basic graphics)
That is simply not true.
You break things down
(display) -> (language) -> (person) -> (intent) -> (language) -> (action) -> (result)
Language is the common denominator. We are all told how to speak. So a failure to convey an OS to someone or any program is on the programmer. (Or team) Now considering a person must operate a piece of equipment but might not be there from the start... The language has to be consistent. What the person sees on screen must be able to lay out to them what their options are. They should be able to figure out what they need or want to do and extended use allows them to become more efficient at doing it, but the task should not be impossible to do from the get go.
To be intuitive is something that gives you every necessary cue, every necessary piece of information and every possible option while maintaining a high level of simplicity. So that if you sit down, look at an interface, you can understand what it's showing you. You don't get that in metro.
Ok cool, I'll just wait here and wait for the charm bar to show up. I'll just figure out what to do, I'll remember exactly what's on my computer and start typing. Grandma will get lost, is what will happen.
Registry is a terrible example. If I know what the registry is, how to access it, what's in it then at my level of expertise it's something that falls under my domain. (Also, I did find the registry myself, accessed and edited things myself) that's called choosing how far you want to go. Quite a bit different than restricting simple functions and hiding simple functions from the screen. We are talking interface here for rudimentary functions and scenarios, not the registry. You shouldn't have to read a manual to browse the Internet. You shouldn't have to read a manual to use MSN Messenger. You shouldn't have to use a manual to figure out what to do when the interface keeps changing drastically before your eyes.
And windows shouldn't be having problems that phone interfaces have because it's a damned DESKTOP OPERATING SYSTEM
Ok... So gets lucky it had the word DVD in it. The problem is when they can't figure out what the hell to do or where to go when the interface is working against them. That's a massive problem. Typing isn't the problem. It's about what is being told to you, how it's being told to you, what you do to tell the PC what to do and what the PC does. In windows 7... It was "let's tell them everything" in windows 8 it's "lets tell them some things and hope they figure out the rest"
Until they are like "how the fuck do I close this app" or "where is the app settings" or "how to I turn off windows"
Also the apps are embarrassing. Going from windows 7 to 8 mail is a bigger leap than excel to lotus 123. people will notice when something is that castrated.
And there's nothing intuitive about windows 8 metro except "click the button", once you get past that stage, the requirement for memorization rockets through the roof. Much more memorization than what is required in the daily routine of using windows 7. Everything is shown to you, unlike in metro.
And then we have the 2 layers... That's two interfaces. One complex in its density, the other complex in its obsufaction.
So you now have one interface which is stupid easy to use but contains a mass amount of information which causes people to struggle. Then there's another interface which tells you fuck all and will cause people to struggle far more than ever. Not having cues is such a terrible design concept.
So streamlined means that having do multiple more steps to provide the same result or function that just because its prettier that it's easier to use? The fuck? The interface usability outright ends at launching an app. FACT. Then it becomes a mess. Everything is more complicated by its simplicity, right? Right. Everything is more complicated to perform actions within the scope of the app or within the scope of multiple apps... Correct? Correct. Is it more complicated to use search while referencing something on screen? You bet. Is it more complicated shutting down the system? Yes. Is it more complicated adjusting things across the two control panels versus one? Oh you bet. Is it more complicated to jump from one application to another in windows 8 relative to windows 7? Yup. Everything about windows 8 outside of launching an app is more complicated. More actions, more things to memorize, more things to think about to achieve less. That's streamlined, alright.
I opened win 8 and totally forgot I could swipe apps in. Seriously. No cue. No nothing. I was just clicking around on the desktop when an app flipped in - "ohhhh yeahhhh" and I KNEW it existed but totally forgot the option was available.
not psycho
Member
Exactly.
The people defending this change just don't use that much stuff. "I never have anything on the screen anyway, so taking up the whole screen for search is cool". "I never have anything open, and I never want to open anything, so putting the few things I ever use on the taskbar is great and doesn't clutter it up and ruin switching".
Guess what... that just means anything would work for you. You don't need anything, so you'll be happy with anything.
I do have a bunch of stuff open to switch between (using the taskbar). I never see the desktop because I have things open. And I need to be able to search and open folders/files/programs on PART of the screen without the power going out and blacking everything out.