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Pelosi declines to endorse Sen. Bernie Sanders' single-payer healthcare bill

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Armaros

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Sep 18, 2013
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This is my point, exactly. Should you have been against gay marriage laws 10 years ago, because "it's just not realistic to pass in the current political environment"?

That is, incidentally, what political hacks and phoneys like GAF darling Hillary did, only throwing their weight behind it years later, when it was politically safe to do so.

So you agree then that Bernie is just as guilty of that then?

Or you believe that 'state rights should decide gay marriage' Sanders supported gay marriage?
 
Aug 10, 2009
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The party's split in that one group is saying "we should expand the ACA" and the other is saying "we should do single payer" which isn't that split, all things considered.
 

Kyzer

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Jan 7, 2009
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This is my point, exactly. Should you have been against gay marriage laws 10 years ago, because "it's just not realistic to pass in the current political environment"?

That is, incidentally, what political hacks and phoneys like GAF darling Hillary did, only throwing their weight behind it years later, when it was safe to do so.

So did that guy Barack Obama who then proceeded to support^ gay marriage so...not sure this is as good an example as you think. Theres also Abe Lincoln who strategically flopped beliefs once he had the power to change things for the better
 

Cbajd5

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May 31, 2011
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A poor bill can easily then worse then no bill, look at the GOP repeal and replace debaucle. They looked better on the topic to the public when they didn't have a terrible bill on the table.

If the public get the wrong impression of universal healthcare with Bills such as these, then you set back the ability to actually get a real one.

Even with all the shit behind real and replace they still were literally one vote away from moving forward with it, and "just needing one more push from the people to get rid of those obstructionist democrats" will probably work well for them in the next election. Because people literally see the ACA as bankrupting them even if it helps them get health insurance they need.

The overall goal (universal health care) is what matters to people, not the details. It's an unfortunate truth, and not supporting this even if it won't pass just tells voters democrats don't really care about it.
 

E-Cat

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So you agree then that Bernie is just as guilty of that then?

Or you believe that 'state rights should decide gay marriage' Sanders supported gay marriage?
Of course I agree. What am I, "team Bernie" that should blindly approve of everything he has or hasn't done?
 

eBay Huckster

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In general, supporting a cause should not be contingent on the likelihood of a bill passing.

In general, House leaders do not engage in symbolic exercises.

Unless they're Paul Ryan.

Her record literally has an affirmative vote for single-payer on it. If that's not enough to be affirmative support, then I'm sorry, but you are being a fucking moron.
 

Kyzer

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We dont have a choice for this option right now, our current options are either successfully defend ACA or it dies, how the fuck are we gonna pass an even more liberal healthcare package than fucking obamacare while the republicans hold every branch?
 

Armaros

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Even with all the shit behind real and replace they still were literally one vote away from moving forward with it, and "just needing one more push from the people to get rid of those obstructionist democrats" will probably work well for them in the next election. Because people literally see the ACA as bankrupting them even if it helps them get health insurance they need.

The overall goal (universal health care) is what matters to people, not the details. It's an unfortunate truth, and not supporting this even if it won't pass just tells voters democrats don't really care about it.

People don't care about details until it pertains to money and taxes.

Which unfortunately is the one thing no one has answers for regarding single payer and more specially Bernies version of it.
 

Armaros

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In general, House leaders do not engage in symbolic exercises.

Unless they're Paul Ryan.

Her record literally has an affirmative vote for single-payer on it. If that's not enough to be affirmative support, then I'm sorry, but you are being a fucking moron.

And Paul Ryan is an AWFUL leader and Speaker.

Makes Boehner's Congress almost looks productive.
 

Trouble

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Jul 22, 2009
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So did that guy Barack Obama who then proceeded to legalize gay marriage so...not sure this is as good an example as you think. Theres also Abe Lincoln who strategically flopped beliefs once he had the power to change things for the better

Obama didn't legalize gay marriage.
 

Cbajd5

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People don't care about details until it pertains to money and taxes.

Which unfortunately is the one thing no one has answers for regarding single payer.
Again, they'll say democrats are going to raise their taxes/take their money anyways.

It's not something that needs answering because Republicans will say it's happening regardless.
 

Inuhanyou

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Jul 26, 2014
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of course she does, she's one of the main 'fund raisers' of the party. can't piss off those donors, or atleast not yet. a lot of the senate dems are cowards who think the insurance lobby will crush any attempts just like in vermont and California.

(and yes, read up on the guy who killed the california bill's chances going back to the insurance lobby a few days later and laughing it off if you don't believe)

its something that becomes politically possible as you explain what actually is in a single payer system, how it is paid for, and how that relates to the consumer.

We already knew how sanders would pay for his bill during the campaign(6.2% payroll tax increase, 2.2% income surtax for those making over 28k, (those making above 250k will be raised in increments of 4 up to 10 million dollars ect), and he also outlined a long time ago what that would mean for the consumer (no more insurance premiums, no more being dependent on an employer to have healthcare, aka if you lose your job you don't lose your insurance, money taken out of paycheck to cover for employer based insurance goes back into employees pocket, no more being dependent on whether or not your insurance even covers certain procedures ect ect)

None of the actual boogeymen arguments are real boogeymen,they are just old right wing talking points that the democrats adopted when they got too cozy with big money and the lobbies that like the status quo.
 

Armaros

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Again, they'll say democrats are going to raise their taxes/take their money anyways.

It's not something that needs answering because Republicans will say it's happening regardless.

So the idea is to actually become the Strawman that the GOP use to attack Democrsts by making the voters worst ideas about them come true?

And that is a winning idea?
 

Plinko

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Again, they'll say democrats are going to raise their taxes/take their money anyways.

It's not something that needs answering because Republicans will say it's happening regardless.

Except this time it will actually be taking place.
 

gutter_trash

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I find it this symbolic shenanigans to be pointless at this point with a Republican congress and President.

Democrats are better served to defend and protect ACA in the present tense, help Dreamers.

2020 is far away, if anyone wants to bring up during the DNC nomination race, then do if by 2019/20.

Now, concentrate on the present and defend what you've got now.
 

Cbajd5

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So the idea is to actually become the Strawman that the GOP use to attack Democrsts by making the voters worst ideas about them come true?

And that is a winning idea?
Why not? Pretty much everyone sees democrats that way already, why not try to do something good if that's the case either way?

Except this time it will actually be taking place.
Why's that matter if people will believe so regardless?
 

E-Cat

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So the idea is to actually become the Strawman that the GOP use to attack Democrsts by making the voters worst ideas about them come true?

And that is a winning idea?
With single-payer, for once your tax money is actually giving you something back. Why is this so hard to understand?
 

whytemyke

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I find it this symbolic shenanigans to be pointless at this point with a Republican congress and President.

Democrats are better served to defend and protect ACA in the present tense, help Dreamers.

2020 is far away, if anyone wants to bring up during the DNC nomination race, then do if by 2019/20.

Now, concentrate on the present and defend what you've got now.

This is a really bad way to win back the Congress in 2018, fwiw
 

ATF487

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I know this is more of a litmus test than anything, but I don't know why we have to eliminate private insurance entirely. Medicare for all, private for the Illuminati
 

Cbajd5

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Because you need a majority of votes?
And we might be able to get there if we try? (I don't really believe it's likely, of course, but trying for it gives a better impression than not trying for it.) Then democrats can actually use this as a rallying cry to get people to vote and have something to show for it.

(My argument is less for Pelosi supporting it than against people dismissing it wholesale though. She definitely has bigger priorities to focus on, but if the democratic base can't even consider a bill for universal health care then why should I believe they'll ever pass any regardless of any incremental steps it'll take? Why are we against the end goal?)
 

Plinko

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Why's that matter if people will believe so regardless?

You are seriously asking what would be the difference between people saying you'll get huge chunks of your paycheck taken and people ACTUALLY getting huge chunks of their paycheck taken?
 

Condom

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We dont have a choice for this option right now, our current options are either successfully defend ACA or it dies, how the fuck are we gonna pass an even more liberal healthcare package than fucking obamacare while the republicans hold every branch?

How is not relevant now when the Democrats don't even think healthcare is a right. It starts with ideology, policies follow. The ideology of the Democrats is not in line with what the working class needs.

Where did people learn that policies come before ideology? How do you even know what your ambitions are if you always look at what is possible today? How can you then even put today in context and plan to change it and win?

Pelosi has done more for the working people of America than any 10 left wing idols you'd like to name in our lifetimes.

Yeah ok I'm done with this. You guys are so far gone, keep losing and incrementally going nowhere while people in the US starve and die.
 

Bolivar687

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Jun 13, 2014
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SCOTUS did because of the President. People really do underestimate how the power to nominate Judges can affect this country.

Barack Obama could not possibly have had less to do with it. Both his nominees replaced outgoing liberal justices. The swing vote and author of the majority opinion was a conservative Reagan-appointee who is responsible for nearly the entirety of the Court's gay rights jurispridence.
 

Aaronrules380

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And we might be able to get there if we try? (I don't really believe it's likely, of course, but trying for it gives a better impression than not trying for it.) Then democrats can actually use this as a rallying cry to get people to vote and have something to show for it.

(My argument is less for Pelosi supporting it than against people dismissing it wholesale though. She definitely has bigger priorities to focus on, but if the democratic base can't even consider a bill for universal health care then why should I believe they'll ever pass any regardless of any incremental steps it'll take? Why are we against the end goal?)
do you honestly believe a single republican will ever support a single payer bill? Let alone the amount needed to pass the bill? Let alone the amount needed to override the inevitable Trump veto?
 

legacyzero

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Feb 20, 2011
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Pelosi endorsing the bill would do more damage for mid terms than good
I really feel it would be the opposite. Right now the perception of the party is that they stand for noting but being anti-trump. That included working to defend existing laws like ACA. Is that really going to win elections?

Getting an actual platform with policy substance will do us some good.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Jun 12, 2004
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Obama didn't legalize gay marriage.

Well he did put Kagan and Sotormayor in the supreme court.

We couldn't get the public option through a democratic majority. Not sure how the hell we're supposed to get single payer/medicare for all through. If Bernie can pull it off, god bless him.
 

Cbajd5

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You are seriously asking what would be the difference between people saying you'll get huge chunks of your paycheck taken and people ACTUALLY getting huge chunks of their paycheck taken?
People won't unless the bill passes though. They'll say it regardless, and everyone is convinced it won't pass, so why not have something good for democrats to point to to say they're working towards since the overall goal is part of the platform regardless?
 

E-Cat

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She forces the hand of reps in places where single payer is unpopular due to her status as minority leader which leads to us losing seats in the mid terms that we could have kept?
https://hotair.com/archives/2017/08...ngle-payer-heavy-majority-republicans-oppose/

According to the this poll conducted just last month, 67% of Democrats support a single-payer system, along with a slight majority of Independents, and even 29% of Republicans.

The majority of the Dem representatives have NOT supported single-payer thus far, and they keep losing elections. Hmm, I wonder why? And your solution is, presumably, to move even further right in order to appease this huge conservative base (who are they, btw?) because it's been working out so well in the past? The opposite hypothesis has never been tested; maybe it's the built-in assumptions that are wrong.
 

Cipherr

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Or maybe this is a Republican tech we need to copy.

No.

Getting sick of this.

Far right carpet bags everything Hillary says and does... Section of the far left does the same.

Far right decided Pelosi is the devil, section of the far left does the same.

Far right engaged in pointless political theatrics (that led to nationwide embarrassment when they couldn't repeal but let's conveniently ignore that part) and now the far left wants to do that too.

How about no. No, no no.
 

Aaronrules380

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I really feel it would be the opposite. Right now the perception of the party is that they stand for noting but being anti-trump. That included working to defend existing laws like ACA. Is that really going to win elections?

Getting an actual platform with policy substance will do us some good.
Which is useless if it costs seats in the mid terms because general support for single payer is shaky at best. By not endorsing it, she gives freedom to the individual reps to make their own decision on the act rather than forcing all of them to fall in line
 

Zap Rowsdower

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Oct 17, 2015
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Bernie Sanders can fuck right off.

We are in the middle of a fight to keep a million Americans from being deported by a fuckshit of a president and he wants to start in-fighting within the party to pull us left that will fracture the party further and make it harder to gain a majority in Congress.

And he is starting this fight over a bill that HE KNOWS is DOA and has no fucking chance of becoming law in the next 3 years because of principal™. He is the lefts Ron Paul.

Fuck that guy. He's not a fucking democrat. Go back to being an independent and getting your rocks off by being super liberal man (except for gunz) on your own time.
Yeah, it's clear that doesn't give a shit about actually passing more social democratic policies, he just wants the spotlight. And he's taken advantage of the fact way too many Americans don't know how their own government works to get his own cult of personality going. As someone who actually really wants leftist policies its very disappointing.
 

Fenderputty

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https://hotair.com/archives/2017/08...ngle-payer-heavy-majority-republicans-oppose/

According to the this poll conducted just last month, 67% of Democrats support a single-payer system, along with a slight majority of Independents, and even 29% of Republicans.

The majority of Dem representatives have NOT supported single-payer thus far, and they keep losing elections. Hmm, I wonder why? And your solution is, presumably, to move even further right in order to appease this huge conservative base (who are they, btw?) because it's been working out so well in the past? The opposite hypothesis has never been tested; maybe it's the built-in assumptions that are wrong.

Here's a better poll with more questions. Shocker it runs counter to your claim.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=248798252&postcount=231

(I wasn't lazy this time Pigeon.)

You'll note that people's opinion change by simply re framing the question to those who originally supported single payer.
 

Aaronrules380

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Feb 19, 2013
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https://hotair.com/archives/2017/08...ngle-payer-heavy-majority-republicans-oppose/

According to the this poll conducted just last month, 67% of Democrats support a single-payer system, along with a slight majority of Independents, and even 29% of Republicans.

The majority of Dem representatives have NOT supported single-payer thus far, and they keep losing elections. Hmm, I wonder why? And your solution is, presumably, to move even further right in order to appease this huge conservative base (who are they, btw?) because it's been working out so well in the past? The opposite hypothesis has never been tested; maybe it's the built-in assumptions that are wrong.
67% is not a huge majority and it ignores that opinions are more likely to go down than up once we get to actually discussing the costs. And supporting single payer doesn't necessarily tell you it'll sway their votes
 

MThanded

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I think a public option would be preferable to flipping the table. Like Hillary said in the Vox interview you are going to have a hard sell for a full single-payer bill.

Also the bill won't pass. They purity test just further divides the party.
 

Cbajd5

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do you honestly believe a single republican will ever support a single payer bill? Let alone the amount needed to pass the bill? Let alone the amount needed to override the inevitable Trump veto?
Honestly I think they'd support it if it technically was overturning Obamacare, even if it was replacing it with something more liberal. A huge part of the republican party is laser focused on undoing anything Obama did, Trump especially. But the support is less for actually passing it than letting democrats be the party saying they're working towards universal health care with tangible proof.
 

Aaronrules380

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Honestly I think they'd support it if it technically was overturning Obamacare, even if it was replacing it with something more liberal. A huge part of the republican party is laser focused on undoing anything Obama did, Trump especially. But the support is less for actually passing it than letting democrats be the party saying they're working towards universal health care with tangible proof.
You're incredibly naive if you believe this
 
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