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Pennello: "People just weren't ready for all digital Xbox One". Post #657 = ether.

People who say things like that want to be "disk free" while still being able to get the benefits of store deals that physical copies get.

I personally don't see the big deal of switching disks if you want to save money that badly, but whatev.
Yeah, I can understand that, but I don't see why they think prices would have dropped doing it Microsoft's way.

Infact, if anything, the prices would have stayed higher for longer as the second hand market would have been destroyed or forced through Microsoft approved vendors, thus fixing the price.
 
Somebody humor me. What's the downside of 100% digital? The only things I can think of is you can't (easily) share it w/ friends or family or whatever and you can't sell it back to Gamestop?

I don't disagree w/ 100% digital. It works fine w/ iTunes. Apple got it more right than wrong. It's just that Microsoft wasn't able to simplify their whacko and bizarre rules and regulations and they had a cataclysmic meltdown when they were challenged - and they were rightly challenged.

To the point though, I mean, why do we need all this plastic and landfill coasters? If Microsoft weren't so anti-consumer, they would have found a way to design this system and present (and sell) it but instead they were broadcasting from the "enviable position" and f'd the whole thing up.

Why can't you purchase a license for a game, any game, and then sell the license on an open market? You can with other pieces of software, though it is totally up to the developer/publisher to decide to allow this, or not, or whether to charge a transfer fee, etc. It's not rocket science, it happens all the time, every single day.

Can't wait for the MS post-mortem on this launch.

I traded in 6 older games to Amazon last week. One of them was dirt old (The Orange Box on PS3, which I have no idea why, but Amazon gave me a really good price for it). The others were 1-3 years old. I bought a couple of them new, but most used, with discounts on the advertised used price. Amazon gave me $72 store credit, and then gave me an extra $30 bonus towards an extra Dualshock 4.

You will never be able to sell or trade digitally and, as a consumer, get a deal anywhere close to that.

EDIT: Another big downside: When the time comes for network services on the console to end, you could lose access to your entire library. Your XBL Terms of Agreement mentions that Microsoft has no responsibility to provide you with content for any duration of time. In 15-20 years time, you might not be able to load up any of your digital purchases due to DRM checks and servers going off-line. Short of the Blu Ray disc or laser failing in some way, in 30 years, I'll still be able to insert the medium into the console and play my content.
 

Kitty

Banned
I've got no fucking clue. MS has collectively had its head up it's own ass for a while now. I want to critique this whole mess but frankly they've bungled this thing up so hard it's difficult to know where to start.

Albert, I know you read Gaf. You need to stop talking about this. Period. Full stop. No more. Shush.

Massive text.

/end rant

This is one of the most amazing posts I've ever read on a forum.

ycmPxA3.gif
 

Magwik

Banned
I've got no fucking clue. MS has collectively had its head up it's own ass for a while now. I want to critique this whole mess but frankly they've bungled this thing up so hard it's difficult to know where to start.

Albert, I know you read Gaf. You need to stop talking about this. Period. Full stop. No more. Shush.

Every time you or any other MS representative goes on the record to discuss the DRM policies you take an inherently anti consumer approach even if it's not your intent. Which at this point I'm going to assume it's your intent given the frequency with which you and your cohorts put this bungle on the consumer. You can't claim that consumers weren't ready for your vision of the future. We will never be ready for your vision of an all digital future because neither you nor anyone else at MS has never, not once, made it clear what exactly that vision is, or was, could be or will be.

Simply state that Microsoft misread the market. You operated in a vacuum under the assumption that your consumers wanted certain things that we didn't and now you're having to back track. That's fine. You guys made a mistake, it happens. It's time to reread your audience and try again. What you can't do is continue to allude to the fact that consumers weren't ready for your product. That's insulting, and it insinuates that you still have plans to fuck us over in the future. Consumers are naturally entitled. We have to be. We're paying large sums of cash, in this case a premium, for your product. We have certain expectations based on how you present that product and once that transaction is complete we're naturally entitled to complete ownership over that product. We also have expectations for your product based on competing products and services from other manufacturers. You do not operate within a vacuum and this relationship does not work in reverse. You are not entitled to my money.

The DRM strategy as we know it is beneficial to no one but Microsoft and its partners. This statement is true based on the information you have given us. You can claim that miscommunications and disorganization led to dissemination of inaccurate rumors, but the truth of the matter is that the only time you've detailed any consumer benefit was AFTER you shut the DRM down. We also had it on good insider authority that those claims regarding game sharing were complete bullshit and you're lying to us. All the "facts" you attempted to detail to consumers were completely contradictory during the period of time immediately following the initial announcement. Every further clarification only led to further confusion as your company continued to contradict itself. Repeatedly. These are not signs of miscommunications. These are signs of a critical lack of vision and fundamental misunderstanding of your target audience and it shows.

Right now Sony is assaulting you with precision strikes in the market that matters the most during launches, the core gamer audience. You need to buckle the fuck down and figure out what your product is, and who it's for. Right now I can't figure out who this product is for, or why anyone should want it. If it's for the hardcore gamer what are the benefits of paying for XBL over PSN+? You're entering a new generation and Sony is catching up significantly. Voice chat is no longer an appropriate answer. You've failed to clarify on the future of the Games With Gold promotion. At first it was temporary, now it's not? The offerings have been substandard when compared to PS+ over the period of time since it was first announced. Your product is no longer the preferred place to play multiplatform titles and you have virtually no first party resources to draw from. The last entry of your largest IP, halo, was not received well by it's audience and you've lost a chunk of your third party exclusive content over the past generation. As a consumer why should I believe that this won't happen again? Why should I, as a gamer, buy a Xbox One when judging by your track record you've nearly abandoned the 360 halfway through it's life and let a massive series like Mass Effect go multiplatform. It seems to me like this will probably happen again and most major titles I can just wait for.

Is this for the casual gamer? If so why aren't we seeing more kinect games? If so why is it the most expensive console on the market? Where is the content that's going to blow the casual market away? The original kinect was successful because it was a novel add on. A new way of interacting with a product you already had in your household. This is not the case for you any more. The original Wii took off because it was something entirely new, original, and extremely affordable. It was a novelty. This is also not the case for the Xbox One. The family/casual market, if there's much of one left, is going to Nintendo. They have the stronger family friendly IPs. You either need to focus on them or drop the kinect.

Is this a device for the mass market? Designed to integrate into television and media services? It can't be, once again it's the most expensive console no the market. It can't compete in price to something like the Apple TV, or even the Vita TV, a device that at least makes sense as a cheap complimentary purchase to a product a consumer will already own. If that's the case then why haven't we heard more about these television and film products? Where is the info on Remedy's new game that's supposedly blending video games and television entertainment? We know virtually nothing about how it plays, and we know virtually nothing about the television series. Are there other projects like that in the works? If it's designed to compliment a cable subscription why can't it function as a DVR? What benefit is there to a $500 black box that functions as little more than a glorified TV remote? Why aren't you partnering with cable providers? Why are the TV services so severely limited globally?

Microsoft, who is this product for? On the surface you seem to be approaching this device as a jack of all trades type of console. The problem is that the title of "jack of all trades" implies a level of competency in these services that is glaringly absent from your strategy. You lack vision. Period. Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the consumers.

Shut the fuck up, buckle the fuck down, figure out who you're targeting, and fix this.

/end rant
gJgnhSW.gif
 

SRTtoZ

Member
Somebody humor me. What's the downside of 100% digital? The only things I can think of is you can't (easily) share it w/ friends or family or whatever and you can't sell it back to Gamestop?

I don't disagree w/ 100% digital. It works fine w/ iTunes. Apple got it more right than wrong. It's just that Microsoft wasn't able to simplify their whacko and bizarre rules and regulations and they had a cataclysmic meltdown when they were challenged - and they were rightly challenged.

To the point though, I mean, why do we need all this plastic and landfill coasters? If Microsoft weren't so anti-consumer, they would have found a way to design this system and present (and sell) it but instead they were broadcasting from the "enviable position" and f'd the whole thing up.

Why can't you purchase a license for a game, any game, and then sell the license on an open market? You can with other pieces of software, though it is totally up to the developer/publisher to decide to allow this, or not, or whether to charge a transfer fee, etc. It's not rocket science, it happens all the time, every single day.

Can't wait for the MS post-mortem on this launch.

I'm not going to go through everything, but the following statement was a bullet-point given to us from MS about the XB1 pre-DRM reversal.

"Share access to your games with everyone inside your home: Your friends and family, your guests and acquaintances get unlimited access to all of your games. Anyone can play your games on your console--regardless of whether you are logged in or their relationship to you."

Thank you MS! You will allow my family to play my games that I own?? OMG THANKS.
 

Dartastic

Member
holy fuck bro. What Microsoft needed was YOU in the office room when they were planning the Xbox One. Some of these questions should have stopped any planning of the XBO dead in its tracks with its vicious, heart-stopping clarity. It's really stark when viewed this way...

Forget Gies and Sessler. Microsoft, hire this man. You need someone that pulls no punches and tells it like it is.
While this is an excellent post, what he's talking about is kinda business 101. I'd be more interested in knowing what happened behind the scenes to have this huge breakdown in basic business strategy.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
I've got no fucking clue. MS has collectively had its head up it's own ass for a while now. I want to critique this whole mess but frankly they've bungled this thing up so hard it's difficult to know where to start.

Albert, I know you read Gaf. You need to stop talking about this. Period. Full stop. No more. Shush.

Every time you or any other MS representative goes on the record to discuss the DRM policies you take an inherently anti consumer approach even if it's not your intent. Which at this point I'm going to assume it's your intent given the frequency with which you and your cohorts put this bungle on the consumer. You can't claim that consumers weren't ready for your vision of the future. We will never be ready for your vision of an all digital future because neither you nor anyone else at MS has never, not once, made it clear what exactly that vision is, or was, could be or will be.

Simply state that Microsoft misread the market. You operated in a vacuum under the assumption that your consumers wanted certain things that we didn't and now you're having to back track. That's fine. You guys made a mistake, it happens. It's time to reread your audience and try again. What you can't do is continue to allude to the fact that consumers weren't ready for your product. That's insulting, and it insinuates that you still have plans to fuck us over in the future. Consumers are naturally entitled. We have to be. We're paying large sums of cash, in this case a premium, for your product. We have certain expectations based on how you present that product and once that transaction is complete we're naturally entitled to complete ownership over that product. We also have expectations for your product based on competing products and services from other manufacturers. You do not operate within a vacuum and this relationship does not work in reverse. You are not entitled to my money.

The DRM strategy as we know it is beneficial to no one but Microsoft and its partners. This statement is true based on the information you have given us. You can claim that miscommunications and disorganization led to dissemination of inaccurate rumors, but the truth of the matter is that the only time you've detailed any consumer benefit was AFTER you shut the DRM down. We also had it on good insider authority that those claims regarding game sharing were complete bullshit and you're lying to us. All the "facts" you attempted to detail to consumers were completely contradictory during the period of time immediately following the initial announcement. Every further clarification only led to further confusion as your company continued to contradict itself. Repeatedly. These are not signs of miscommunications. These are signs of a critical lack of vision and fundamental misunderstanding of your target audience and it shows.

Right now Sony is assaulting you with precision strikes in the market that matters the most during launches, the core gamer audience. You need to buckle the fuck down and figure out what your product is, and who it's for. Right now I can't figure out who this product is for, or why anyone should want it. If it's for the hardcore gamer what are the benefits of paying for XBL over PSN+? You're entering a new generation and Sony is catching up significantly. Voice chat is no longer an appropriate answer. You've failed to clarify on the future of the Games With Gold promotion. At first it was temporary, now it's not? The offerings have been substandard when compared to PS+ over the period of time since it was first announced. Your product is no longer the preferred place to play multiplatform titles and you have virtually no first party resources to draw from. The last entry of your largest IP, halo, was not received well by it's audience and you've lost a chunk of your third party exclusive content over the past generation. As a consumer why should I believe that this won't happen again? Why should I, as a gamer, buy a Xbox One when judging by your track record you've nearly abandoned the 360 halfway through it's life and let a massive series like Mass Effect go multiplatform. It seems to me like this will probably happen again and most major titles I can just wait for.

Is this for the casual gamer? If so why aren't we seeing more kinect games? If so why is it the most expensive console on the market? Where is the content that's going to blow the casual market away? The original kinect was successful because it was a novel add on. A new way of interacting with a product you already had in your household. This is not the case for you any more. The original Wii took off because it was something entirely new, original, and extremely affordable. It was a novelty. This is also not the case for the Xbox One. The family/casual market, if there's much of one left, is going to Nintendo. They have the stronger family friendly IPs. You either need to focus on them or drop the kinect.

Is this a device for the mass market? Designed to integrate into television and media services? It can't be, once again it's the most expensive console no the market. It can't compete in price to something like the Apple TV, or even the Vita TV, a device that at least makes sense as a cheap complimentary purchase to a product a consumer will already own. If that's the case then why haven't we heard more about these television and film products? Where is the info on Remedy's new game that's supposedly blending video games and television entertainment? We know virtually nothing about how it plays, and we know virtually nothing about the television series. Are there other projects like that in the works? If it's designed to compliment a cable subscription why can't it function as a DVR? What benefit is there to a $500 black box that functions as little more than a glorified TV remote? Why aren't you partnering with cable providers? Why are the TV services so severely limited globally?

Microsoft, who is this product for? On the surface you seem to be approaching this device as a jack of all trades type of console. The problem is that the title of "jack of all trades" implies a level of competency in these services that is glaringly absent from your strategy. You lack vision. Period. Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the consumers.

Shut the fuck up, buckle the fuck down, figure out who you're targeting, and fix this.

/end rant

Headshot.
 

Quote

Member
While this is an excellent post, what he's talking about is kinda business 101. I'd be more interested in knowing what happened behind the scenes to have this huge breakdown in basic business strategy.
Easy, they thought they could get away with it.
 
You can also buy CDs, but no one does that.

Yes, because after years of Microsoft-esque bullshit that was completely unappealing to consumers (and probably irreparably damaged the music industry in the process), the people selling music finally capitulated to selling the unencumbered MP3s people had been asking for since day one.

It's not hard to sell people on digital distribution: just offer them reasonable terms instead of unfriendly, restrictive bullshit!
 
Someone explain to me why we have to go all digital! Even with netflix and spotify I can still buy a copy of any album or movie at a store. Going all digital fucks up people's online caps, fills hard drives, and yes gets rid of our changes to return a copy. Why do we view this as so inevitable when this would be the only medium that this happens too?
 
Someone explain to me why we have to go all digital! Even with netflix and spotify I can still buy a copy of any album or movie at a store. Going all digital fucks up people's online caps, fills hard drives, and yes gets rid of our changes to return a copy. Why do we view this as so inevitable when this would be the only medium that this happens too?

People see their narrow world view as what everyone else experiences.
 

Dartastic

Member
Easy, they thought they could get away with it.
It's not that simple. You still need to have a target market that you focus on. This post perfectly explains that the Xbox One HAS NO REAL TARGET MARKET. Regardless of what they're "trying to get away with" you first need to know what you're trying to do.
 

Blader

Member
I was perfectly fine with their original policies sans the required 24 hr check in. I would have loved to install off disk and play from hdd and share my digital content with my friends and family. Hopefully they bring it back and restrict said policies to digital content.

"I would have loved to share my digital content with my friends and family" :lol, what a fucking phony sounding sentence.
 
/end rant

This has got to be up there as one of the posts of the year. Fantastic, and 100% agreed.

Every time Albert opens his mouth on this I feel like I'm being condescended to. Like Microsoft are treating me as if I'm a complete idiot who's just too stupid their amazing vision for the future. Never mind the fact that their proposed vision was a complete clusterfuck of vague and contradictory remarks, and promised nothing other than ways to fuck me over hard, and deprive me of consumer rights I'm damn fucking well entitled to, all in the name of the almighty dollar.


Newsflash Albert: you don't win business by alienating and insulting your customers. Show some humility, keep your mouth shut, and get back to the important step of fixing your product and providing a compelling offer. It wasn't that people weren't ready for your vision because it was ahead of it's time. People weren't ready for it and never will be because it's a pile of rancid shit, and you need to get that through your thick skulls. You crossed lines that should not have been crossed in the name of pure greed, and you still refuse to admit it was a mistake.

It's this unwillingness to listen that has seen Microsoft go from an industry leader into a stagnant mess desperately trying to play catch-up with its competitors. And while they have people like you in a position of prominence Albert, that isn't going to change.
 
IYou will never be able to sell or trade digitally and, as a consumer, get a deal anywhere close to that.

Yeah, but why? I can go any buy any number of pieces of software right now, use it (or them) for six months, and then sell it on the open market, via ebay, or some forum. Why can't we do that w/ video games and be done w/ Gamestop and the like? I'd rather have a free and open market for used games than whatever Gamestop, et al decides is "the price."

As I said, i should be up to the publisher or developer to decide the details. We're already seeing the equivalent of transfer fees, which are thus far, being foisted on the buyer. (Game pass or whatever it's called.) Really, what we want is the platform holders like Microsoft out of this equation and leave it to the publishers or developers if they are self-publishing.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
Yeah, but why? I can go any buy any number of pieces of software right now, use it (or them) for six months, and then sell it on the open market, via ebay, or some forum. Why can't we do that w/ video games and be done w/ Gamestop and the like? I'd rather have a free and open market for used games than whatever Gamestop, et al decides is "the price."

As I said, i should be up to the publisher or developer to decide the details. We're already seeing the equivalent of transfer fees, which are thus far, being foisted on the buyer. (Game pass or whatever it's called.) Really, what we want is the platform holders like Microsoft out of this equation and leave it to the publishers or developers if they are self-publishing.

No one is forcing you to trade at Gamestop. Sell to a friend, craigslist, ebay, amazon, best buy etc.
 
EDIT: Another big downside: When the time comes for network services on the console to end, you could lose access to your entire library. Your XBL Terms of Agreement mentions that Microsoft has no responsibility to provide you with content for any duration of time. In 15-20 years time, you might not be able to load up any of your digital purchases due to DRM checks and servers going off-line. Short of the Blu Ray disc or laser failing in some way, in 30 years, I'll still be able to insert the medium into the console and play my content.

I have iTunes and I have a small portion of my library local, the rest is in "the cloud." As long as I'm connected, I have access. I'm not worried about 15-20 years from now, because Apple isn't suddenly going to go away w/ my stuff. Never gonna happen.

What I'd be more worried about is that in probably 10 years, that Blu-Ray disc is going to be a coaster and unless you collect antiques (and can maintain lasers) you aren't going to be able to play that in 15 or 20 years... the time frame you're concerned about.
 
No one is forcing you to trade at Gamestop. Sell to a friend, craigslist, ebay, amazon, best buy etc.

In which case there should be no difference between selling a physical disc or a license code/serial #. I just don't understand why this is all tied to "physical" aside from the fact that Microsoft made this onerous.

The download thing, yeah, I get. If you want to go back and play some game that you haven't touched in a year, yeah, nobody wants to download even if it's smart-cacheing as you play. You just want to pop in a disc and that's where we aren't yet, download speed/bandwidth and local storage. The rest of this, I think is just MS fucking up what should be, by rights, a no-brainer: you buy something digital (or physical) and you should have the right to sell that license on the open market, by whatever agreement is laid out by the publisher when you purchase it. The platform holder, in this case Microsoft, shouldn't have any say or anything at all to do with what third-party publisher agree to with their customers. That's just monopolistic bullshit.

Some publisher won't allow a resale or have exorbitant transfer fees? You boycott unit they change their policy.
 
Somebody humor me. What's the downside of 100% digital? The only things I can think of is you can't (easily) share it w/ friends or family or whatever and you can't sell it back to Gamestop?

I don't disagree w/ 100% digital. It works fine w/ iTunes. Apple got it more right than wrong. It's just that Microsoft wasn't able to simplify their whacko and bizarre rules and regulations and they had a cataclysmic meltdown when they were challenged - and they were rightly challenged.

To the point though, I mean, why do we need all this plastic and landfill coasters? If Microsoft weren't so anti-consumer, they would have found a way to design this system and present (and sell) it but instead they were broadcasting from the "enviable position" and f'd the whole thing up.

Why can't you purchase a license for a game, any game, and then sell the license on an open market? You can with other pieces of software, though it is totally up to the developer/publisher to decide to allow this, or not, or whether to charge a transfer fee, etc. It's not rocket science, it happens all the time, every single day.

Can't wait for the MS post-mortem on this launch.

For starters , not only you can't resell your game or lend them , but the real problem is that you kill the choice.

The choice to either buy digital or to buy retail ..

I won't lie i do both ..but i like that i can have the choice of picking the retail box for some games and go digital for others.

For gaming , IMO 100% digital sucks because it force me to download the game, sometimes you just want to play a game , and you just pick the disc and put in the console .. you might have an install , but in most case you'll be fine after a couple of minutes at worst. i can't choose to keep a game in my psysical library , because no matter what you do , even if you can redownload there will still be a problem if something happen.

What would have happenned during the sony 3 blank week if the ps3 was all digital ?
What would happen , in the next generation if everything is all digital ?
What happens to your game if something touch your account ?( resulting in thievery or ban ? )

None of the above is a problem if you have a retail copy.
 
I think the key quote in Penello's article was this:

AlbertPenello said:
"Sometimes the customer just says, 'No, I look at is this way, I'm done. I've made up my mind'"

If you delete that specific statement from the article, it doesn't sound AS bad. Granted it still reeks of MS planning to re-institute their "vision" at some point (hopefully next-next gen so the XB1 isn't screwed).

But with that specific statement, he's basically dismissing all 'customers' as if we all put on our blinders and refused to entertain any logical debate or discussion on the topic, when in fact the exact opposite is true.

MS decided what they wanted to do and put THEIR blinders on, completely ignoring the overwhelming prevailing sentiment in the market, and only finally changed course when someone put a big fat flashing neon sign right in front of them within the field of view that their blinders allowed for them to see. (Thanks for that, Mr. preorder numbers disparity.)

Then after the fact they kept blaming the customers for putting the sign there, instead of blaming themselves for not seeing the blazing inferno surrounding them on all sides that they couldn't see because of their blinders.
 

Saganator

Member
I love how Microsoft, the company who has been late to the party for every bit of new technology in the past decade, is trying to tell me what the future is. What a damn joke.

Oh if they had any damn clue what the future holds, why the hell are they pushing TV services? Everyone under the age of 40 knows cable TV is on its way out.
 

10k

Banned
I won't go all digital until these happen:

-The ability to sell my digital game or trade it in if I don't like it
-higher monthly bandwidth caps (I get 80gb a month)
-steam like sales on software
-cheaper then retail day one
-No DRM
 

Foxix Von

Member
Nice post Foxix. In the interest of full disclosure, though, I did hit the quote button to ensure that there was no email tag hidden in that message.

Aw, thanks and thanks for being honest! I'll have you know that despite tremendous temptations I've put a full stop on hiding stuff in my posts since my last tag was removed in that... incident.

That is, of course, unless your post is secretly a request...
I keed... I keeeed. I will have you know though, that I still frequently accidentally type "[/email]" out of habit every time I try and use spoiler tags.
 

Finalizer

Member
You can only hold off progress for so long.

For the love of god, stop referring to MS' scheme as "progress."

Steam? That's progress. What MS was doing was backwards in comparison.

And for fuck's sake, if you want an all-digital library, you can already do that. Even on the PS3 & 360, you can download digital copies of current games. At the same time, it doesn't infringe on consumer rights by destroying the options available to those who prefer physical media. Fancy that!
 

santeesioux

Member
I haven't read the whole thread, but what's stopping them from bringing the DRM back in an update, because that sure sounds like what they want to do. They should be trying to give me a reason to buy this thing, not confirming that i never will.
 
I haven't read the whole thread, but what's stopping them from bringing the DRM back in an update, because that sure sounds like what they want to do. They should be trying to give me a reason to buy this thing, not confirming that i never will.
Massive backlash and consumer distrust of any MS backed digital initiatives and services until the very heat-death of the universe.

Basically they'd go kaboom worse than their current gen launch consoles.
 

clem84

Gold Member
He is completely right.

I don't like it. But we don't have a choice.

It may be inevitable but the longer we keep buying retail games, the longer it will take for this digital future to get here. 95% of the games I buy are physical games. As long as there's a market for it, they won't ignore us.
 

Foxix Von

Member
I haven't read the whole thread, but what's stopping them from bringing the DRM back in an update, because that sure sounds like what they want to do. They should be trying to give me a reason to buy this thing, not confirming that i never will.

Barring the natural powers of competition and consumer rebellion? Jack shit. They're probably planning on it if their comments as of late are anything to go by. At least it'd seem like that if they could pull off the illusion of having a plan put together in the first place.

Also, wow. Was not expecting my post to get that much attention. Thanks for the love, guys.
 
The fact that Microsoft has been repeatedly stating that DRM is the future, especially with their vision, is why I feel console DRMs will never work, at least with intrusive methods. I also worry that Microsoft will attempt to bring back these policies in their original form eventually. I am fine with a digital-only future, but not in the way Microsoft is presenting.

Also, Foxix's post is brilliant. One of the best gaming-related posts I have seen in a long time.
 
So, how many tech industries still sell/use physical media versus digital? Music, movies, tv, books are all going digital. Games will as well, and probably sooner rather than later. Microsoft was right that things are going digital but so so wrong about how to accomplish that idea.
 
In my opinion the future should be publishers to work on budgets of games, work out better strategies rather than let initial investments spiral out of control whilst actually giving the gamer new and fresh ideas rather than seeing ten plus first person shooters chasing the Call of Duty money. Price games accordingly rather than the standard $60 for the vast majority retail release. Worried the consumer may think a lesser prices game is shit? Market accordingly, use the investment smartly. It's your job.

The DLC plan, that needs a better future. Offer the gamer value for money rather than offer day one downloads such as weapon skins and new characters for $5-10 which could of easily have been on the original package.

A lot of publishers piss and moan about sales which in some cases leads to job losses. Perhaps they should look at themselves rather than screwing the consumer.

People will never be ready for a future that offers no viable alternative to their needs. Music offers digital and CDs, movies the same so why should games be different.

The consumer is getting the blame, it's not right.
 
You mean like the option available on alternate platforms? Buy those instead. No consumer rights were trampled on. You still had a choice. Consumer rights are not mutually exclusive to a single platform. Come on, guy.
People were buying those instead, that's why Microsoft shit themselves when they seen their preorder numbers and reversed all their policies.
 

Cess007

Member
I've got no fucking clue. MS has collectively had its head up it's own ass for a while now. I want to critique this whole mess but frankly they've bungled this thing up so hard it's difficult to know where to start.

Albert, I know you read Gaf. You need to stop talking about this. Period. Full stop. No more. Shush.

Every time you or any other MS representative goes on the record to discuss the DRM policies you take an inherently anti consumer approach even if it's not your intent. Which at this point I'm going to assume it's your intent given the frequency with which you and your cohorts put this bungle on the consumer. You can't claim that consumers weren't ready for your vision of the future. We will never be ready for your vision of an all digital future because neither you nor anyone else at MS has never, not once, made it clear what exactly that vision is, or was, could be or will be.

Simply state that Microsoft misread the market. You operated in a vacuum under the assumption that your consumers wanted certain things that we didn't and now you're having to back track. That's fine. You guys made a mistake, it happens. It's time to reread your audience and try again. What you can't do is continue to allude to the fact that consumers weren't ready for your product. That's insulting, and it insinuates that you still have plans to fuck us over in the future. Consumers are naturally entitled. We have to be. We're paying large sums of cash, in this case a premium, for your product. We have certain expectations based on how you present that product and once that transaction is complete we're naturally entitled to complete ownership over that product. We also have expectations for your product based on competing products and services from other manufacturers. You do not operate within a vacuum and this relationship does not work in reverse. You are not entitled to my money.

The DRM strategy as we know it is beneficial to no one but Microsoft and its partners. This statement is true based on the information you have given us. You can claim that miscommunications and disorganization led to dissemination of inaccurate rumors, but the truth of the matter is that the only time you've detailed any consumer benefit was AFTER you shut the DRM down. We also had it on good insider authority that those claims regarding game sharing were complete bullshit and you're lying to us. All the "facts" you attempted to detail to consumers were completely contradictory during the period of time immediately following the initial announcement. Every further clarification only led to further confusion as your company continued to contradict itself. Repeatedly. These are not signs of miscommunications. These are signs of a critical lack of vision and fundamental misunderstanding of your target audience and it shows.

Right now Sony is assaulting you with precision strikes in the market that matters the most during launches, the core gamer audience. You need to buckle the fuck down and figure out what your product is, and who it's for. Right now I can't figure out who this product is for, or why anyone should want it. If it's for the hardcore gamer what are the benefits of paying for XBL over PSN+? You're entering a new generation and Sony is catching up significantly. Voice chat is no longer an appropriate answer. You've failed to clarify on the future of the Games With Gold promotion. At first it was temporary, now it's not? The offerings have been substandard when compared to PS+ over the period of time since it was first announced. Your product is no longer the preferred place to play multiplatform titles and you have virtually no first party resources to draw from. The last entry of your largest IP, halo, was not received well by it's audience and you've lost a chunk of your third party exclusive content over the past generation. As a consumer why should I believe that this won't happen again? Why should I, as a gamer, buy a Xbox One when judging by your track record you've nearly abandoned the 360 halfway through it's life and let a massive series like Mass Effect go multiplatform. It seems to me like this will probably happen again and most major titles I can just wait for.

Is this for the casual gamer? If so why aren't we seeing more kinect games? If so why is it the most expensive console on the market? Where is the content that's going to blow the casual market away? The original kinect was successful because it was a novel add on. A new way of interacting with a product you already had in your household. This is not the case for you any more. The original Wii took off because it was something entirely new, original, and extremely affordable. It was a novelty. This is also not the case for the Xbox One. The family/casual market, if there's much of one left, is going to Nintendo. They have the stronger family friendly IPs. You either need to focus on them or drop the kinect.

Is this a device for the mass market? Designed to integrate into television and media services? It can't be, once again it's the most expensive console no the market. It can't compete in price to something like the Apple TV, or even the Vita TV, a device that at least makes sense as a cheap complimentary purchase to a product a consumer will already own. If that's the case then why haven't we heard more about these television and film products? Where is the info on Remedy's new game that's supposedly blending video games and television entertainment? We know virtually nothing about how it plays, and we know virtually nothing about the television series. Are there other projects like that in the works? If it's designed to compliment a cable subscription why can't it function as a DVR? What benefit is there to a $500 black box that functions as little more than a glorified TV remote? Why aren't you partnering with cable providers? Why are the TV services so severely limited globally?

Microsoft, who is this product for? On the surface you seem to be approaching this device as a jack of all trades type of console. The problem is that the title of "jack of all trades" implies a level of competency in these services that is glaringly absent from your strategy. You lack vision. Period. Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the consumers.

Shut the fuck up, buckle the fuck down, figure out who you're targeting, and fix this.

/end rant

I got nothing else to say, except "Bravo". It's like you just put in words whats on the mind of almost everyone of us regarding MS policies.

(The Orange Box on PS3, which I have no idea why, but Amazon gave me a really good price for it). .

As note. It seems the PS3 version of Orange Box is kinda rare or something, 'cause i've seen some people sell their used version at a very good price.
 

BigDug13

Member
I've got no fucking clue. MS has collectively had its head up it's own ass for a while now. I want to critique this whole mess but frankly they've bungled this thing up so hard it's difficult to know where to start.

Albert, I know you read Gaf. You need to stop talking about this. Period. Full stop. No more. Shush.

Every time you or any other MS representative goes on the record to discuss the DRM policies you take an inherently anti consumer approach even if it's not your intent. Which at this point I'm going to assume it's your intent given the frequency with which you and your cohorts put this bungle on the consumer. You can't claim that consumers weren't ready for your vision of the future. We will never be ready for your vision of an all digital future because neither you nor anyone else at MS has never, not once, made it clear what exactly that vision is, or was, could be or will be.

Simply state that Microsoft misread the market. You operated in a vacuum under the assumption that your consumers wanted certain things that we didn't and now you're having to back track. That's fine. You guys made a mistake, it happens. It's time to reread your audience and try again. What you can't do is continue to allude to the fact that consumers weren't ready for your product. That's insulting, and it insinuates that you still have plans to fuck us over in the future. Consumers are naturally entitled. We have to be. We're paying large sums of cash, in this case a premium, for your product. We have certain expectations based on how you present that product and once that transaction is complete we're naturally entitled to complete ownership over that product. We also have expectations for your product based on competing products and services from other manufacturers. You do not operate within a vacuum and this relationship does not work in reverse. You are not entitled to my money.

The DRM strategy as we know it is beneficial to no one but Microsoft and its partners. This statement is true based on the information you have given us. You can claim that miscommunications and disorganization led to dissemination of inaccurate rumors, but the truth of the matter is that the only time you've detailed any consumer benefit was AFTER you shut the DRM down. We also had it on good insider authority that those claims regarding game sharing were complete bullshit and you're lying to us. All the "facts" you attempted to detail to consumers were completely contradictory during the period of time immediately following the initial announcement. Every further clarification only led to further confusion as your company continued to contradict itself. Repeatedly. These are not signs of miscommunications. These are signs of a critical lack of vision and fundamental misunderstanding of your target audience and it shows.

Right now Sony is assaulting you with precision strikes in the market that matters the most during launches, the core gamer audience. You need to buckle the fuck down and figure out what your product is, and who it's for. Right now I can't figure out who this product is for, or why anyone should want it. If it's for the hardcore gamer what are the benefits of paying for XBL over PSN+? You're entering a new generation and Sony is catching up significantly. Voice chat is no longer an appropriate answer. You've failed to clarify on the future of the Games With Gold promotion. At first it was temporary, now it's not? The offerings have been substandard when compared to PS+ over the period of time since it was first announced. Your product is no longer the preferred place to play multiplatform titles and you have virtually no first party resources to draw from. The last entry of your largest IP, halo, was not received well by it's audience and you've lost a chunk of your third party exclusive content over the past generation. As a consumer why should I believe that this won't happen again? Why should I, as a gamer, buy a Xbox One when judging by your track record you've nearly abandoned the 360 halfway through it's life and let a massive series like Mass Effect go multiplatform. It seems to me like this will probably happen again and most major titles I can just wait for.

Is this for the casual gamer? If so why aren't we seeing more kinect games? If so why is it the most expensive console on the market? Where is the content that's going to blow the casual market away? The original kinect was successful because it was a novel add on. A new way of interacting with a product you already had in your household. This is not the case for you any more. The original Wii took off because it was something entirely new, original, and extremely affordable. It was a novelty. This is also not the case for the Xbox One. The family/casual market, if there's much of one left, is going to Nintendo. They have the stronger family friendly IPs. You either need to focus on them or drop the kinect.

Is this a device for the mass market? Designed to integrate into television and media services? It can't be, once again it's the most expensive console no the market. It can't compete in price to something like the Apple TV, or even the Vita TV, a device that at least makes sense as a cheap complimentary purchase to a product a consumer will already own. If that's the case then why haven't we heard more about these television and film products? Where is the info on Remedy's new game that's supposedly blending video games and television entertainment? We know virtually nothing about how it plays, and we know virtually nothing about the television series. Are there other projects like that in the works? If it's designed to compliment a cable subscription why can't it function as a DVR? What benefit is there to a $500 black box that functions as little more than a glorified TV remote? Why aren't you partnering with cable providers? Why are the TV services so severely limited globally?

Microsoft, who is this product for? On the surface you seem to be approaching this device as a jack of all trades type of console. The problem is that the title of "jack of all trades" implies a level of competency in these services that is glaringly absent from your strategy. You lack vision. Period. Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the consumers.

Shut the fuck up, buckle the fuck down, figure out who you're targeting, and fix this.

/end rant

This has to be one of the greatest articulations of the XBO's problems I've ever seen. And this is coming from a 2x generation Xbox guy that has been converted to PS4. Fact is the Xbox name has been synonymous with "most powerful" since day 1. Being far removed from "most powerful" simply does not suit the brand.
 

Finalizer

Member
Someone explain to me why we have to go all digital! Even with netflix and spotify I can still buy a copy of any album or movie at a store. Going all digital fucks up people's online caps, fills hard drives, and yes gets rid of our changes to return a copy. Why do we view this as so inevitable when this would be the only medium that this happens too?

Of course it's not at all necessary, just more convenient in some respects if you're capable of making the transition. Publishers want all-digital because it cuts out manufacturing, distribution, retail, and other supply-related costs. MS wanted all-digital because it gave them an additional revenue stream through the used-games market with their resale fees, and also gave MS themselves had much more control over the Xbox market in general.

All-digital can be cool, but it was glaringly obvious in MS' implementation that consumer interests were never a part of the equation.


Still at it I see.
 
I loved the 360. I was a huge Xbox fan last gen but now i just don't know what they are doing. it's like there is no communication or leadership within the XBOX division. It really hard to defend this company right now unless you close your ears with your hands and start yelling LALALA while ignoring everything that has been going on..
 

Finalizer

Member
You mean like the option available on alternate platforms? Buy those instead.

Judging by how quickly MS tore down their DRM scheme, seems like folks were doing just that. Closed platforms sure are swell like that, huh?

EDIT: Just to touch on the consumer rights bit, here's a fun analogy: Room A is full of murderers. Room B is not. People go to Room B and aren't murdered. This does not excuse the folks in Room A for being murderers. Get the picture?
 

Biker19

Banned
What I'd be more worried about is that in probably 10 years, that Blu-Ray disc is going to be a coaster and unless you collect antiques (and can maintain lasers) you aren't going to be able to play that in 15 or 20 years... the time frame you're concerned about.

As long as you take care of your discs, you don't have to worry about that problem. Heck, my PS1 & PS2 discs still works on my PS2, despite being much older.

And in case of lasers failing, you can always either find someone to fix it, or buy a replacement console.
 

Yagharek

Member
So, how many tech industries still sell/use physical media versus digital? Music, movies, tv, books are all going digital. Games will as well, and probably sooner rather than later. Microsoft was right that things are going digital but so so wrong about how to accomplish that idea.

We can still buy physical books, cds, music, tv shows, films and games. Those markets all allow for choice.

Microsoft is anti-choice.
 
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