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[nightowl]

IGN's lack of reporting doesn't surprise me. Whatever coverage they do could easily be construed as them dogpiling on their closest competitor.

I think that's more a matter of the (pardon the irony here) tone that they strike in discussing it. You can definitely use this as a springboard to discuss journalistic ethics as it relates to gaming sites and publisher influence without discussing or unfairly pointing fingers at CNet.

Having said that, I think you're right that their own skeletons probably have more to do with it than anything. As for the editors being out, their podcasts are still being produced so I assume those doing it are intelligent enough to discuss topical events.

 

[firehawk12]

I'd include:
- Not letting publishers tell you when you can post your reviews. What the hell is that? Do they work for the publisher and take orders from them now?

- Stop signing Non disclosure agreements in order to preview games. If you are a journalist your job is to report not to sign secret deals in order to get sneek peeks you can't talk about. "Yeah there is a great game coming out soon, but we can't talk about it. Just trust us!" WTF is that?

I think that's "our" fault though. "We" want the OMG EXCLUSIVE screenshots for a game and "we" want reviews to come out faster and faster.
Like Shawn Elliot said on the podcast, as long as that's what the readers want, they'll be forced to play by those rules.

 

[Zzoram]

Can someone summarize the IGN thing on GFW? I know I've heard that podcast but I don't want to listen to it again because I forgot something they said.

 

[nightowl]

I think that's "our" fault though. "We" want the OMG EXCLUSIVE screenshots for a game and "we" want reviews to come out faster and faster.
Like Shawn Elliot said on the podcast, as long as that's what the readers want, they'll be forced to play by those rules.

Great point of course, but what is the metrics for juding "our" culpability on something like this? Also, who's to say if previews were more honest about a game's faults that our "demand" for quicker reviews wouldn't be diminished to a certain degree?

I guess I'm just hopeful that the whole "the public like Jerry Springer so more Jerry Springer they get" mentality isn't used as an excuse by anyone not to make appropriate improvements like those that have been mentioned here (re: complete, full disclosure on articles/features/reviews, detailed posting of a sites policy in regards to conflict of interest and independent coverage).

Can someone summarize the IGN thing on GFW? I know I've heard that podcast but I don't want to listen to it again because I forgot something they said.

Basically it dealt with a GameSetWatch story that reported an anonymous source that illuded to how IGN was offered the Prey Exclusive if they could gaurantee a review in a certain range (9 or higher), etc.

 

[AstroLad]

I think that's "our" fault though. "We" want the OMG EXCLUSIVE screenshots for a game and "we" want reviews to come out faster and faster.
Like Shawn Elliot said on the podcast, as long as that's what the readers want, they'll be forced to play by those rules.

Well afaict, publishers push around media outlets because they can. There seems to be a uniquely asymmetrical power structure here that we've seen manifested in various ways: conditions on previews, conditions on reviews, pressure for scores, etc.

It's certainly not inconceivable that media outlets could simply refuse to accede to these conditions, and if enough powerful outlets did maybe it would effect a change. Even if previews were more honest, they would still be largely free advertising for upcoming games so the publishers get a lot out of the deal, but since they can ask for more they do.

For example if everyone took GFW's position of refusing to bargain for exclusive reviews because of the conditions attached (e.g., minimum scores), readers would certainly benefit. But since publishers are competing so hard and on so many fronts it'll likely never happen. I don't even bother with exclusive reviews anymore except to maybe find out basic information and facts about a game. To me the exclusive status of a review is a negative, but obviously I'm in the minority.

 

[firehawk12]

Let's face it. GFW places less emphasis on previews and reviews and they have lower numbers than PC Gamer, which has exclusive reviews and previews all the time.
There's a thread here for the one single screenshot of SF4 that 1up released.
People want this crap and in order to make money, the press will chase these people. If something is to change, it's the audience, not the press.

That said, we have Edge and Escapist Magazine that's trying to fill that gap. But even Edge has low sub numbers and most people see Escapist Magazine as the "place where Zero Punctuation airs every Wednesday".

Also, don't get me wrong. There was a thread on the 1up Boards a long time ago when people were talking about the merits of Edge magazine. John Davison, who was still around at the time, said that magazine that just had features and editorials wouldn't sell and that each issue would probably cost more than 20 bucks. There were a fair number of people who said they wouldn't mind, because that's what they want.

Of all the American magazines, I find that GFW and Game Informer are the best when it comes to feature content. Now, GI does the crap that the GFW crew seems to hate as well - Holiday's buyer guide - but they did a TEN page feature on Starcraft in Korea. 10 pages that other magazines would have used to preview the latest Mario game or some bullshit like that. GFW regularly covers issues that other game mags don't care about - Christian gaming, Islamic gaming, Facade, etc. That's why I support those magazines by subscribing to them. But I honestly think that I'm in the minority, and unless that changes, the press has no incentive to use more features and fewer previews/reviews.

 

[railGUN]

Watching that "On The Spot", you'd think the guy died... saving orphans from a burning building...

The whole situation sucks, I wasn't a big fan of Jeff, but he did crack me up WAY more than anyone else on GS, and to be fired for this suit bullshit is pretty lame.

However, if I was in that situation, where a very good friend was fired after 11 years of hard work, for some shit reason... I'd quit, strongly encourage the rest of the staff to quit, and make a shit ton of noise on the way out.

 

[eshwaaz]

However, if I was in that situation, where a very good friend was fired after 11 years of hard work, for some shit reason... I'd quit, strongly encourage the rest of the staff to quit, and make a shit ton of noise on the way out.

The reality is that all of these people have families to support, bills to pay, etc. Storming out to make a bold statement is one of those, "wouldn't it be great if..." situations, but in the real world it's a very shortsighted thing to do. Very few people have the luxury of tons of savings or having another job all lined up that would make quitting immediately anything but screwing yourself.

 

[mosaic]

However, if I was in that situation, where a very good friend was fired after 11 years of hard work, for some shit reason... I'd quit, strongly encourage the rest of the staff to quit, and make a shit ton of noise on the way out.

And, to add to the above point... quitting doesn't put much burden on the management, apart from hiring new people, whereas it puts a heavy burden on the staff that do remain behind. These people are close-knit, almost like family, and they feel just as much responsibility to each other as they do for themselves. It's a tough, tough situation to be in.

Heck, it's forced rudds into a brutal chainsmoking habit!

 

[skip]

rudds, please don't damage your million dollar voice.

 

[railGUN]

The reality is that all of these people have families to support, bills to pay, etc. Storming out to make a bold statement is one of those, "wouldn't it be great if..." situations, but in the real world it's a very shortsighted thing to do. Very few people have the luxury of tons of savings or having another job all lined up that would make quitting immediately anything but screwing yourself.

I understand people with families being in a tough situation, but actions speak louder than words, and given the alternative being going back to business as usual, continuing to make the assholes that fired him money, and having to rebuild the integrity of the company on top of that... If I couldn't afford to quit on the spot, i'd find a new gig asap and leave at a time that would fuck over GS and Cnet the most.

Yeah, I'm kinda spiteful.

 

[Dirtbag]

wow that was pretty sad to watch.

I feel bad for those guys.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Hasn't Shoe written editorials on several occasions prior to now about how nobody on the EGM staff is allowed to keep anything a publisher gives them?

 

[Justin]

Hasn't Shoe written editorials on several occasions prior to now about how nobody on the EGM staff is allowed to keep anything a publisher gives them?

This was posted like 50 pages back by one of the ex GS staffers said this in their blog.

Hell, they don't even keep their review copies of games. Those games go into the library. I remember Greg telling me that he thought that was important so editors had to actually buy the games they wanted to have -- if they got it for free, their sense of value could be altered.

That is why Greg Kasavin was awesome.

 

[Blader]

Jesus Christ I thought MacDonald was going to cry, he was pretty close, AlexN is like barely holding it together. I'm not sure the site can recover, I know they'll try but this is such a downer and is going to be a downer for months.

It's not like he's dead, you know.

 

[nightowl]

It's not like he's dead, you know.

Ed. - Insert slightly uncomfortable joke about CNet Management, GameSpot credibility, or overall journalistic ethics here.

 

[Druz]

Let's face it. GFW places less emphasis on previews and reviews and they have lower numbers than PC Gamer, which has exclusive reviews and previews all the time.
There's a thread here for the one single screenshot of SF4 that 1up released.
People want this crap and in order to make money, the press will chase these people. If something is to change, it's the audience, not the press.

That said, we have Edge and Escapist Magazine that's trying to fill that gap. But even Edge has low sub numbers and most people see Escapist Magazine as the "place where Zero Punctuation airs every Wednesday".

Also, don't get me wrong. There was a thread on the 1up Boards a long time ago when people were talking about the merits of Edge magazine. John Davison, who was still around at the time, said that magazine that just had features and editorials wouldn't sell and that each issue would probably cost more than 20 bucks. There were a fair number of people who said they wouldn't mind, because that's what they want.

Of all the American magazines, I find that GFW and Game Informer are the best when it comes to feature content. Now, GI does the crap that the GFW crew seems to hate as well - Holiday's buyer guide - but they did a TEN page feature on Starcraft in Korea. 10 pages that other magazines would have used to preview the latest Mario game or some bullshit like that. GFW regularly covers issues that other game mags don't care about - Christian gaming, Islamic gaming, Facade, etc. That's why I support those magazines by subscribing to them. But I honestly think that I'm in the minority, and unless that changes, the press has no incentive to use more features and fewer previews/reviews.

You nailed it till you reached Game Informer, the PC Gamer of the console world.

 

[wreckk]

I didn't see this posted, but Gertstmann is on today's episode of Tekzilla over at Rev3. He's reviewing game peripheral rip-offs, like fake wii-motes and such.

They only mention the whole gamepot issue for a quick second. His segment comes on about 15mins in.

The episode is here
http://revision3.com/tekzilla/gerstmann

 

[rollingstart]

I didn't see this posted, but Gertstmann is on today's episode of Tekzilla over at Rev3. He's reviewing game peripheral rip-offs, like fake wii-motes and such.

They only mention the whole gamepot issue for a quick second. His segment comes on about 15mins in.

The episode is here
http://revision3.com/tekzilla/gerstmann

he seemed fine.

 

[StopMakingSense]

I didn't see this posted, but Gertstmann is on today's episode of Tekzilla over at Rev3. He's reviewing game peripheral rip-offs, like fake wii-motes and such.

They only mention the whole gamepot issue for a quick second. His segment comes on about 15mins in.

The episode is here
http://revision3.com/tekzilla/gerstmann

Hmm, I could see Rev3 being a good home for Gerstmann if they gave him a fulltime gig to start a gaming show that they don't have yet...

Hmm, that sounds so infinitely plausible.

 

[rudds]

rudds, please don't damage your million dollar voice.

Heck, if anything the cigarettes have deepened it further!

 

[tanod]

he seemed fine.

Maybe recorded before the firing.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Maybe recorded before the firing.

Would be really hard for him to talk about his firing if it hadn't happened yet.

 

[AGFlamey]

Sadly, in the wake of this "scandal," every site that doesn't at least do these three things has credibility issues: 1. Post policy regarding the relationship between marketing and editorial.

Good idea. Since we're a small site the same person who handles marketing WRITES some editorial. We've now taken a stance of "we're no longer pursuing advertising or review copy deals with publishers"

2. Put in place a policy to at least mention when the game being reviewed was made by a big money advertiser.

Yep, from now on there'll be a disclaimer at the top of the review. (We don't really have a "big money" advertiser, but still)

3. Put in place a policy to reveal when the writer has received a big ticket "goodie" item during the course of their time with a game ($800 Halo swag, a trip to play a game that involves casinos or race cars, and so forth).

Definitely. I like the way Kotaku give away this stuff to readers. Maybe we should go that one extra step, although postage costs are a pain in the ass for a small site.

4. Admit whether or not the site is making a concerted effort to fall in line with MetaCritic and GameRankings averages.

We've already declared that we're not going to do review scores any more. Instead we're doing "Hell yes buy this / 10", "You fail at life if you play this / 10", or "ScarletJohansson.jpg / 10". Review scores are meaningless so you might as well have fun with it

5. Editorial should NEVER take it upon themselves to tell a publisher or PR firm the content of a review or the score the game is getting BEFORE the review goes live.

Never have, never will.

Not that our little site matters to a hill of beans, but you got to start somewhere.

About the embargoes though - I dunno. I think that one has more to do with sites playing fair to each other than anything else. As much as I'd love to cover the site with daily Sensible World of Soccer coverage, it wouldn't be fair to other places. We don't really have much relationships with publishers, so I don't consider it being about being nice to them - most publishers don't even know we exist. Its better to have the respect of other sites than the fickle approval of publishers.

 

[firehawk12]

You nailed it till you reached Game Informer, the PC Gamer of the console world.

Oh, I know there are lots of problems with Game Informer. But I just ignore the reviews and the previews and some of the junk features. The 10-15 pages a month that are left are actually pretty good. The issue of exclusives, sales, focus groups, voice acting, the aforementioned Starcraft in Korea article, etc.
Yeah, subbing for 10 pages a month is kind of lame, but I want to support those 10 pages since that's more than most magazines will devote to non-preview, non-review issues.
Interviews I'm kind of down the middle on. I usually just get Game Developer and read the feature they have there where a dev goes back and comments on the development of the game. A lot of the times interviews end up being just another preview feature though.

 

[CriscoDisco]

Ha! That was pretty cool seeing him on Tekzilla. Good work, Jeff.

 

[firehawk12]

Just watched it. Yeah, he was pretty good on it. Almost a natural transition, honestly.

 

[nightowl]

PCGamer aren't the only ones to ignore this story so far either, as I believe IGN podcasts and website (except for editor blogs) have ignored it as well.

Update: While I haven't listened to it yet, apparently IGN's Game Scoop podcast is addressing the issue.

 

[SapientWolf]

The reality is that all of these people have families to support, bills to pay, etc. Storming out to make a bold statement is one of those, "wouldn't it be great if..." situations, but in the real world it's a very shortsighted thing to do. Very few people have the luxury of tons of savings or having another job all lined up that would make quitting immediately anything but screwing yourself.

But isn't the pay for journalism pretty much crap? I thought these guys were doing it because it was something they enjoy.

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

"They are urinating on Nolan Bushnell's grave and he's not even dead!" :lol

 

[suaveric]

The overall reaction from various outlets to this story has definitely been interesting. I was suprised that PCGamer on their podcast decided to ignore the entire thing. Even if you take the most pro-CNet line its hard to argue that Gerstmann's firing, the public reaction, and CNet's damage control isn't a compelling and relevant story to the gaming industry.

Likewise, with the exception of a side comment that Gary was able to slip in, they seemed to ignore the situation of Eidos getting caught posting what amounted to fake review scores on their website.

I'm not sure how interested or willing Garry would be in providing his insight on this, but was PCGamer's decision because they didn't feel they had anything to say about it, or were they trying to make a statement that it wasn't important enough to cover? I saw some comments on the podcast page saying that you got complaints on Game Theory about covering it so that you can't win either way, but if it is a relevant news story is that really a valid excuse?

Note: I realize that Gary is a guest on that podcast so it isn't up to him to dictate to them what should be covered on their podcast. Likewise, it may not be appropriate for him to provide any additional insight because he is a guest.

PCGamer aren't the only ones to ignore this story so far either, as I believe IGN podcasts and website (except for editor blogs) have ignored it as well.

Considering that they gave Hellgate London (the game that's on their cover this month) a score 20 points higher than it's average on gamerankings, it does make you wonder about them not talking about the subject on their podcast.

 

[Spire]

Considering that they gave Hellgate London (the game that's on their cover this month) a score 20 points higher than it's average on gamerankings, it does make you wonder about them not talking about the subject on their podcast.

It was also an exclusive first review.

 

[Dot50Cal]

Update: While I haven't listened to it yet, apparently IGN's Game Scoop podcast is addressing the issue.

I believe 3 red lights bleeped the entire section out when one of the editors brought it up. After the long bleeping one of them just said they couldn't talk about it.

 

[Rlan]

I believe 3 red lights bleeped the entire section out when one of the editors brought it up. After the long bleeping one of them just said they couldn't talk about it.

And they can't swear anymore [Though I didn't hear the show before that one, did they swear uncontrollably or something?]

 

[firehawk12]

I'm always wary of Cover story exclusive reviews. Maybe for the average person, that's an incentive to buy the mag, but that's a huge disincentive for me.
Half way into the OXM podcast, they seem to have ignored the issue as well. I guess Future US doesn't want to talk about it at all.

GameScoop did talk about it and like GFW Radio, went into how there's a clear divide between editorial and advertising.

 

[mosaic]

But isn't the pay for journalism pretty much crap? I thought these guys were doing it because it was something they enjoy.

You'll find that when you have a job for 5 years or more, you come to, you know, depend on the income. Most adults, no matter how bad the pay is or how slighted they feel, can't just call bullshit and leave. That goes double if you have a mortgage, children, etc.

Though the GameSpot guys sure don't get paid crap. Might not be huge by San Francisco standards, but it's still a thick chunk of coin. Nonetheless, instantly quitting and saying goodbye to that will render you homeless real quick in San Francisco...

... which is why most people stuck in jobs they hate line up another one first while quietly stewing their remaining days at the old one... haven't we all at one point done an interview and said to the hiring manager, "save my current job ref for last, they don't know I'm applying?"

 

[nestea]

I guess by now the staff are just so worn out over the whole thing that the small increase in readership, apologies from the management and the fact that Jeff is doing fine that they've just about given up fighting.

 

[StranGER]

You'll find that when you have a job for 5 years or more, you come to, you know, depend on the income. Most adults, no matter how bad the pay is or how slighted they feel, can't just call bullshit and leave. That goes double if you have a mortgage, children, etc.

Though the GameSpot guys sure don't get paid crap. Might not be huge by San Francisco standards, but it's still a thick chunk of coin. Nonetheless, instantly quitting and saying goodbye to that will render you homeless real quick in San Francisco...

... which is why most people stuck in jobs they hate line up another one first while quietly stewing their remaining days at the old one... haven't we all at one point done an interview and said to the hiring manager, "save my current job ref for last, they don't know I'm applying?"

and that is one reason you should always stash money away so that you can live off savings after you tell a boss to shove it right up his own arse!!!

it also makes you more grown up to have what they call a "nest egg" ha ha ha

 

[MC Safety]

and that is one reason you should always stash money away so that you can live off savings after you tell a boss to shove it right up his own arse!!!

it also makes you more grown up to have what they call a "nest egg" ha ha ha

It's sort of naive to expect Gamespot editors to stand up en masse and walk out on their jobs after burning bridges with their old employees. It's also pretty dumb to suggest they could quit and live on savings while they find a new job writing about games.

San Francisco is not like other places in the known universe. Anywhere else, it may be possible to live off a nest egg set aside from the salary of an editor, but San Francisco is the most god-awful expensive place to live.

Plus, where would all these righteous editors go? It's not as if there are five game editorial jobs for every one applicant.

 

[mosaic]

No more sticky!

Anybody know what, if anything, came about of the plan to hold a demonstration outside of CNet HQ in San Francisco today (tomorrow, and Monday?). Everyone I know actually works inside the building, and since they're not inside on weekends, I don't even know if anyone showed up to protest...

... or that anyone noticed, since, like I said, no one is in the building.

 

[SouthernDragon]

No More Stickies.

Anywho, who decided to protest on a Sunday? Saturday would have been way better, who's going to be in the office on a Sunday?

Perhaps it is to raise public awareness?

 

[tokkun]

I believe 3 red lights bleeped the entire section out when one of the editors brought it up. After the long bleeping one of them just said they couldn't talk about it.

Why would you need to bleep out an entire section of a podcast? It's not like it's live.

 

[ElyrionX]

Considering that they gave Hellgate London (the game that's on their cover this month) a score 20 points higher than it's average on gamerankings, it does make you wonder about them not talking about the subject on their podcast.

PC Gamer doesn't give a shit about what goes on in the console space because PC gaming is teh l33t and console gaming is for n00bz.

 

[Shamrock]

No more sticky!

Anybody know what, if anything, came about of the plan to hold a demonstration outside of CNet HQ in San Francisco today (tomorrow, and Monday?). Everyone I know actually works inside the building, and since they're not inside on weekends, I don't even know if anyone showed up to protest...

... or that anyone noticed, since, like I said, no one is in the building.

I didn't even think about that. Who's brilliant idea was it to hold a protest over the weekend when probably the entire management/marketing staff is off.

 

[mosaic]

I didn't even think about that. Who's brilliant idea was it to hold a protest over the weekend when probably the entire management/marketing staff is off.

Some well-meaning guy who probably figured he'd drum up some media support and build up to a big Monday; just a guess. Not the greatest idea for organizing a vocal protest, but then it IS better than I could ever do from the midwest. So, hey...

Who knows what Monday will bring. I was just curious if it even registered a blip Saturday. None of the people I know were in the building, but I figured GAF might be big enough that somebody from here might have walked past (or even intentionally went down to see if there was a stir).

 

[Captain N]

Any chance we'll see Jeff on a future Bonus Round?

 

[Justin Bailey]

Sorry for the bump, but this was just posted on thestreet.com - it's a huge site in the financial investing world:

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/new...ml?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

Are Game Reviewers Jerking Our Joysticks?

Four months ago, David Gornoski, an editor at Video Game Media Watch, a Web site that tracks media coverage of video games, raised questions about the ethical implications of a video-games journalist who negotiates for exclusive access to a game in exchange for good review scores.

The post drew strong reactions from his readers, some of whom complained that they faced similar pressures in their publications, but it caused few ripples in the games industry or among other media watchdogs.

Fast forward to last week when bloggers were buzzing over the allegations that CNET (CNET - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr - Rating) had fired a veteran reviewer.

Jeff Gerstmann was allegedly asked to leave CNET after writing a negative review of **** & *****: Dead Men, an action game published by Eidos Interactive. Neither Eidos nor CNET responded to requests for comment.

Shane Satterfield, editor-in-chief of GameTrailers.com, a division of Viacom's (VIA - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr - Rating) MTV Networks, says the recent development is disturbing.

"Regardless of whether this incident is true or not, the effect on the industry is huge," he says. "It makes people question the validity of every single outlet in games media and their reviews."

That has significant implications for the video-games industry. Reviews are a high-stakes business. They are important to both gamers trying to choose between many releases and investors making bets on the game developers and publishers, experts say.

It's good to see that this is getting more mainstream exposure.

Edit: Ok, now they changed the title to a much more inflammatory one.

 

[Salazar]

People 'questioning the validity' of news and reviews is a positive development. It's the alternative that is disturbing.

 

[Shamrock]

So I take it the protest didn't get much attention since no one has posted about it?



It's kind of sad this this whole incident is going away after about two weeks and it will be business as usual again. I'm very weary of IGN after pretty much choosing to ignore this whole situation and edit out the guy who was talking about it on their podcast. That seems very strange almost as if they are worried this whole situation could wake up people and start them looking in their direction.

 

[DrXym]

IMO, game journalists shouldn't take promotional items/trips that have more than a nominal value (what's a fair value, I don't know... but it's probably less than $50).

My company doesn't allow gifts totalling more than $150 in a year and you have to pretty much declare everything except promotional crap like pens & mugs. Not that anyone ever sends me anything BTW I'm not in the games biz, I'm in the finance sector and they're ultraparanoid about any hint of taint.