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[Nickiepoo]

It's easy (and natural) to ignore an insult that isn't actually directed at you, so I get the feeling that some people don't get why Gabe was trolling because they haven't really put themselves in the shoes of those being trolled. Not all though, I also get that many of us are happy to simply laugh or whatever at people trying to be insulting towards us.

But that is probably what divides a lot of this discussion.

As far as I can see, almost all of us have taken the common-ground of 'the joke was good/not actually about rape' and 'Gabe didn't respond to criticism very well'. So everything comes down to simply which side the poster in question sympathises with more while otherwise agreeing on these core points.

But what we sort of have here is 'what happens if the cannon ball that can be stopped by nothing hits the wall that can't be broken' in that we have a small core of people who will always object to any reference to rape (or lack of reference to rape too, apparently) criticising someone who has always reacted badly to people being critical.

So the question is (and going on the basis that, often, nothing changes without someone getting hurt), has either side learnt anything about how to handle these situations or even (god forbid) anything about the other sides point of view.
I personally don't hold too much hope for the latter, but the former, at least in Gabes case, is something that he will hopefully be more mindful of in the future. At the very least he seems to have learnt that if he pulls too hard on the watermelon catapult then chances are that it will come back and smash him personally in the face. He's also probably learnt something about the crazy end of his own fandom.

But also, while it's horrible that he received threats of violence and it's good that our natural (publicly, anyway) response to this was to condemn it, it makes me wonder why some people, including Gabe, didn't automatically condemn the trolling or even acknowledge it as such in some cases. Yeah, they're on different levels, you don't have to 'you heard it here first folks!' me, because I know they don't compare directly, but you've basically got two groups of people basically just trying to antagonize each other because they, personally, have already been hurt.
And I just wish that people, as a whole, would get over this mode of behavior.
I'm not going to get into 'who hurt who first' because, honestly, once both sides have thrown their grenades it sort of doesn't matter to me who actually pulled their pins first.

But then, this is also why I try to avoid antagonistic language in my posts and find statements like 'if you'd actually read my post' to be pointless, counter-productive and a bit childish (is that antagonistic? Guffaw). But point is that someone who is being insulted is less likely to listen to whatever the person insulting them actually has to say and that also applies to both sides of this argument both within this thread and in general.

 

[Igo]

I'm sorry, but "what was she wearing" is absolutely never an acceptable question when discussing a rape. That's not pragmatic, it's offensive and presumptuous bullshit. The victim of a sexual assault is never partially to blame just because she insisted on believing in the silly notion that her body is her own. And obviously I'm not referring to "was she in a dark alley in the middle of the night with nobody around." I'm referring to when people suggest that if a woman goes without a friend to a party where there are a lot of young men and alcohol, isn't she asking for trouble really. That's offensive to both victims of sexual assault and the entire male gender as it seems to assume that in large groups with enough alcohol, all men will turn into rapists.

For the woman in question there are safer and smarter choices you can make in your day to day interactions because the world is unfortunately unfair, but unless you are her or her family/friend the issue of her clothing choices should never come up in conversation. Rape isn't the act of a normal man spurred on by the carelessness of a thoughtless woman. The suggestion that her choices in some way played a part in her rape implies that raping someone could happen to almost any man if properly provoked but if she plays her cards right he'll be a perfect gentleman.

It doesn't work that way.

I don't think what's she's wearing has anything to do with it either. It seems foolish to believe that rapists choose their targets based on the victims clothing choices. Then again, i'm not a rapist so I don't know what's going through their minds.

But I certainly don't agree that people outside of her family or friends shouldn't be allowed to talk about these things. It's basic human curiosity. It's not about assigning blame to the victim but understanding why, if for any reason, she was targeted. It's the same no matter what the crime. With domestic murders the first question is normally "Was he/she cheating". And again, it has nothing to do with "rape culture".

 

[Sqorgar]

There are far more poor white people than poor black.

There are far more white people than black, genius. That's why they call it a minority.

The study you linked to on Wikipedia covered only the national total statistics for rape. I think we can both agree that the number of black victims in, say, Montana is going to be lower than Georgia. When they say that the percentage of black victims was around 17%, that means 17% of the total rapes in the nation for that particular year, not 17% of black people. When you factor in that the black population is less than 15% of the total population of the United States, according to the most recent census data, then you can see that the number of reported rapes with black victims is higher than it should be. Factor in that marginalized minority groups are far less likely to report crimes to the police and you get a situation where even that 17% is not even close to an accurate statistic.

Here's why you don't use Wikipedia to fight your battles. Wikipedia is like copying someone else's class notes. You aren't getting the information yourself, you are getting someone else's interpretation of the information. If you were actually in class yourself and asked questions, you'd have context. You'd be able to test your assumptions against a knowledgeable resource. You'd be given a bigger picture and a more complete understanding of how things work together. And perhaps most importantly, you'd win internet arguments more easily. And let's not even factor in the fact that Wikipedia is edited predominantly by white males, is frequently involved in absurd edit wars over stupid minutiae, and in an unpredictable quantum state of both right and wrong at any given time.

If you want to have this discussion, I'd absolutely love to. This is not a subject I'm particularly familiar with and the things I've learned over the past few days has opened my eyes in many ways. But I get the feeling that you are less interested in having this discussion than you are simply proving me wrong - I don't remember wronging you, but I've obviously annoyed you to some degree. You know what? That's okay too. But you are going to have to put a little more work into it than you have been so far.

 

[noire]

There are far more white people than black, genius. That's why they call it a minority.

Really? When did that happen?

The study you linked to on Wikipedia covered only the national total statistics for rape. I think we can both agree that the number of black victims in, say, Montana is going to be lower than Georgia. When they say that the percentage of black victims was around 17%, that means 17% of the total rapes in the nation for that particular year, not 17% of black people. When you factor in that the black population is less than 15% of the total population of the United States, according to the most recent census data, then you can see that the number of reported rapes with black victims is higher than it should be. Factor in that marginalized minority groups are far less likely to report crimes to the police and you get a situation where even that 17% is not even close to an accurate statistic.

This was the bit that I'm referring to:
"There were 194,270 white and 17,920 black victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2006"

The flip side of the high number of unreported is the high number of false reports.

Edit: I'm not sure if the stats include false reports orif those get dismissed before the tally, so that may be a non-factor.

Here's why you don't use Wikipedia to fight your battles.

Just telling you about the numbers, Mason. The source PDF was desne with data tables.

If you want to have this discussion, I'd absolutely love to. This is not a subject I'm particularly familiar with and the things I've learned over the past few days has opened my eyes in many ways. But I get the feeling that you are less interested in having this discussion than you are simply proving me wrong - I don't remember wronging you, but I've obviously annoyed you to some degree. You know what? That's okay too. But you are going to have to put a little more work into it than you have been so far.

I was more annoyed with all of the 'poor black people in the ghetto' shit. Not just from the surface stereotype, but also due to the 'dismissal' of rape to a ghetto problem. I grew up white and in the suburbs and have at least 4 family members that are victims of rape and sexual assault. Throw a trigger warning on that shit next time, I guess.

 

[Zen]

How dumb do you have to be to object to a rape comic and then talk about how funny it'd be if someone's family got murdered.

The second part was obviously sarcasm to make a point.

 

[The Technomancer]

The second part was obviously sarcasm to make a point.

And this

isn't sarcasm to make a point?

Like it or not, they're only getting this much grief because they're public figures. They're held to a higher standard then everyone else. That's just how it works.

 

[Sqorgar]

This was the bit that I'm referring to:
"There were 194,270 white and 17,920 black victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2006"

And if there were as many black people as white people, that would be an important distinction to make. But it is meaningless in discussing whether black people have greater issues with rape, in general, than whites. The percentage of black rape victims is much higher than whites when accounting for race. Similarly, minority groups are far less likely to report crimes to the police, so of that estimated 74% of of unreported rape, it is almost undoubtedly going to increase the numbers of minority rape - perhaps significantly so.

The flip side of the high number of unreported is the high number of false reports.

The U.S. Justice Department suggests that only 26% of rapes are being reported. I think we can assume that 0% of the unreported rapes are false reports. According to what I can find, the percentage of reported rapes that are considered false by the FBI is around 8%. So, 8% of those 26% are considered false.

Let's do the math. There were about 250,000 reported rapes according to that study, which means that nationwide, about 20,000 false reports. But if those are only 26% of the reports, then that's around 1 million rapes total. Not really the flip side, I'd say.

And I think you might run afoul of a feminist for that comment. They tend to think that saying that a lot of rape reports are fake marginalizes rape and makes it harder for the real victims to be taken seriously.

The source PDF was desne with data tables.

That's because it was only tables. About 20 of them. And since it only covered black and white racial profiles and had no information on economic or social background of the victims or the offenders, I'm not sure how useful it was in this argument.

I was more annoyed with all of the 'poor black people in the ghetto' shit. Not just from the surface stereotype, but also due to the 'dismissal' of rape to a ghetto problem. I grew up white and in the suburbs and have at least 4 family members that are victims of rape and sexual assault. Throw a trigger warning on that shit next time, I guess.

Let me say that rape is a horrible thing that is a blight on our society - all our societies. It doesn't matter what race, religion, culture, or creed one belongs to, rape is unfortunately a commonality we all share, must all be aware of, and must all work against. That being said, low income minorities may or may not be at greater risk, but being unable and unwilling to seek support from the police in many cases, it is something they must ward against and be aware of, and thus a more obvious, more present danger in their lives.

Also, trigger warnings are for the victims who are suffering from PTSD, not generally their families. Again, I think a feminist might take offense at how you used it.

 

[Dyno]

rather than spark up and in all likelyhood go off the rape deep end and get myself shitcanned, i'll let doug stanhope do it for me:

Doug Stanhope on offensive comedy - HeraldScotland

(it's a cache url. scotland is quick to dispose of anything not made of lead or batter.)

Quoting on new page because it's an excellent assessment. Doug Stanhope is my favourite comedian, as damaged as he is intelligent. Look him up, his acts are hilarious and insightful.

Rape Culture and Rape Trigger were phrases that ran through my head all last night. I finally decided that don't believe they are actually real things, I think they are forms of hyperboli that set up a narrative as soon as you accept them into your lexicon. If you agree that Rape Culture is a legitimate phrase then you buy into a culture of rape that exists in society. There is mysogyny and there are straight out bad people. They don't form a culture.

Rape Trigger is simply a bad memory. Everyone has bad memories. Fireworks makes me depressed for some reason. It reminds me of my parents divorcing, probably because I saw fireworks around the time when the family meltdown happened. I would never catagorize it as a Divorce Trigger or a Single-Parent Child Trigger and the reason I wouldn't catagorize it as such is because I'm not out there looking for sympathy when it comes to the bad things that have happened to me.

Rape Trigger is however a killer name for a rock band.

 

[Coxswain]

Rape Culture and Rape Trigger were phrases that ran through my head all last night. I finally decided that don't believe they are actually real things,

l o l

 

[poppabk]

"Well they're both really, really bad crimes." The following conversation has never taken place, for instance:

"Hello. Is this the police? I... I'd like to report a crime."
"Alright, this is Sergeant Brown. What crime are you reporting?"
"Well... I-I was murdered."
"Alright. Well, what were you wearing?"
"... What?"
"Well, was it really murder? Maybe he thought you wanted it."

(There are a different set of injustices endemic to reports, investigations, and prosecutions based around murder, of course; the point is, they're still two very different matters.)

I have been physically assaulted and the conversation went something like:
"Hello. Is this the police? I... I'd like to report a crime."
"Alright, this is Sergeant Brown. What crime are you reporting?"
"I was physically assaulted by a group of teenagers"
"Where were you?"
"Walking back from a club"
"Yeah there have been a lot of assaults in that area"
"oh"
"You may want to avoid it or consider carrying a weapon of some sort. Maybe get a taxi next time"

They did take a statement, but unless I could literally tell them the name of who did it, it was clear that this was considered par for the course and there would be zero follow-up, and that really it was my fault for not being able to defend myself.

 

[malingenie]

Quoting on new page because it's an excellent assessment. Doug Stanhope is my favourite comedian, as damaged as he is intelligent. Look him up, his acts are hilarious and insightful.

Rape Culture and Rape Trigger were phrases that ran through my head all last night. I finally decided that don't believe they are actually real things, I think they are forms of hyperboli that set up a narrative as soon as you accept them into your lexicon. If you agree that Rape Culture is a legitimate phrase then you buy into a culture of rape that exists in society. There is mysogyny and there are straight out bad people. They don't form a culture.

Rape Trigger is simply a bad memory. Everyone has bad memories. Fireworks makes me depressed for some reason. It reminds me of my parents divorcing, probably because I saw fireworks around the time when the family meltdown happened. I would never catagorize it as a Divorce Trigger or a Single-Parent Child Trigger and the reason I wouldn't catagorize it as such is because I'm not out there looking for sympathy when it comes to the bad things that have happened to me.

Rape Trigger is however a killer name for a rock band.

I would have agreed with this 100% a few weeks ago. My ex told me about places in Africa where lesbians are raped consistently to "fix" them. That seems like a cultural element of rape, so at the very least it does apply to an actual phenomenon.

However, I agree with it being a little hyperbolic to have names for triggers.

 

[Dyno]

I would have agreed with this 100% a few weeks ago. My ex told me about places in Africa where lesbians are raped consistently to "fix" them. That seems like a cultural element of rape, so at the very least it does apply to an actual phenomenon.

However, I agree with it being a little hyperbolic to have names for triggers.

Right, I see what you're saying. I didn't take into account other, far-flung countries like those found in Africa. I only thought in terms of North America because that's what I know. Still I would rather say that rape is predominant in one place or another as opposed to saying there is a Rape Culture.

 

[Dyno]

l o l

I don't take anyone seriously who quotes only a portion of a sentance. That was a comma, not a period. Rather than cherry picking you should commit to a full rebutle if you are going to laugh in my face over the internet, ya little jerk.

 

[ultron87]

I would have agreed with this 100% a few weeks ago. My ex told me about places in Africa where lesbians are raped consistently to "fix" them. That seems like a cultural element of rape, so at the very least it does apply to an actual phenomenon.

The existence of cultures like this where rape is literally an accepted part of the culture is why I find applying the term "rape culture" to North America somewhere between hyperbolic and offensive.

 

[charlequin]

Rape Trigger is simply a bad memory. Everyone has bad memories. Fireworks makes me depressed for some reason. It reminds me of my parents divorcing, probably because I saw fireworks around the time when the family meltdown happened. I would never catagorize it as a Divorce Trigger or a Single-Parent Child Trigger and the reason I wouldn't catagorize it as such is because I'm not out there looking for sympathy when it comes to the bad things that have happened to me.

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is a real, widely-agreed-upon psychological condition that is a common result of experiencing violent or emotionally scarring trauma resulting from extreme situations such as abuse, war, natural disasters, or terrorist attacks. It is not in any way limited to rape, but rape is one situation that can lead to this condition. People with PTSD can experience severe psychological symptoms as a result of fairly inocuous stimuli bringing back a memory of their trauma, and generally these effects can only be mitigated with a long ongoing process of psychiatric treatment.

"Rape culture" is a much more nuanced question, but there isn't really a question about triggering effects: they do exist, and they're not limited to people who have been raped. Your mental association of something with a negative past experience is misleading here in that the experience of people who have suffered severe trauma (from a variety of sources) is very different.

 

[Nickiepoo]

While rape-culture is complex concept (and as a concept, has to exist) the arguments to it being a relevant concept can go back and forth.

But claiming that triggers don't exist. I mean, wut?

 

[Zenith]

Yesterday's Daily Show had an entire segment dedicated to rape jokes. I laughed my ass off.

 

[Sqorgar]

Yesterday's Daily Show had an entire segment dedicated to rape jokes. I laughed my ass off.

They were not making fun of rape or rape victims. They were making fun of the people who trivialize them for political gain. If you can't tell why that is okay and wearing a dickwolves t-shirt in an act of defiance against offended rape victims is not, then maybe you don't have as much to contribute to this thread as you think.

 

[twinturbo2]

Yesterday's Daily Show had an entire segment dedicated to rape jokes. I laughed my ass off.

Link? I missed it.

 

[PBalfredo]

I'm sure triggers exist, but what about the PA webcomic is a rape trigger, really? It's not dickwolves. They're fictional. Is it the mention of rape? Highly unlikely. Rape triggers are personal and largely related to the experience of the attack. Things seen, smelled or heard during the attack. If the attacker was wearing scented deodorant, then your Old Spice is more likely to send a rape victim into a flashback than any webcomic.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

They were not making fun of rape or rape victims. They were making fun of the people who trivialize them for political gain. If you can't tell why that is okay and wearing a dickwolves t-shirt in an act of defiance against offended rape victims is not, then maybe you don't have as much to contribute to this thread as you think.

Correct. The segment was showing the absurdity of attempting to reclassify rape. That said, it could still trigger PTSD episodes in the same manner that the original PA strip could. The difference here is that I doubt Jon Stewart will go deliberately antagonize anyone offended by the segment.

 

[Zenith]

Link? I missed it.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/wed-february-2-2011-matthew-perry

2nd half with the female curly-haired presenter.

then maybe you don't have as much to contribute to this thread as you think.

wah wah. Who made you king of the thread? and most of their rape jokes were only tangentially related to the Rep "forcible rape" story. Lots of jokes about rape are funny. There's an entire sub-genre dedicated to dead baby jokes. You can make jokes about anything.

 

[malingenie]

I'm sure triggers exist, but what about the PA webcomic is a rape trigger, really? It's not dickwolves. They're fictional. Is it the mention of rape? Highly unlikely. Rape triggers are personal and largely related to the experience of the attack. Things seen, smelled or heard during the attack. If the attacker was wearing scented deodorant, then your Old Spice is more likely to send a rape victim into a flashback than any webcomic.

Maybe if the rapist was wearing a "Dickwolves" t-shirt!

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I'm sure triggers exist, but what about the PA webcomic is a rape trigger, really? It's not dickwolves. They're fictional. Is it the mention of rape? Highly unlikely. Rape triggers are personal and largely related to the experience of the attack. Things seen, smelled or heard during the attack. If the attacker was wearing scented deodorant, then your Old Spice is more likely to send a rape victim into a flashback than any webcomic.

All things considered, I don't think the original objection was that the comic could cause a trigger. I think it was submitted as an example of a culture that trivializes rape.

And let's face it - if there's a culture that trivializes the use of the word "rape," it's gamer culture. But that's another discussion.

 

[Haunted]

They were not making fun of rape or rape victims. They were making fun of the people who trivialize them for political gain. If you can't tell why that is okay [...]

Pretty sure the original comic was not about making fun of rape or rape victims, either. They were making fun of the questionable morality of your stereotypical RPG quests.

I'm sure the people who got offended by the dickwolves comic and started the debate on this whole thing were deeply offended by the Daily Show segment last night as well.

 

[Coxswain]

I have been physically assaulted and the conversation went something like:
[...]

They did take a statement, but unless I could literally tell them the name of who did it, it was clear that this was considered par for the course and there would be zero follow-up, and that really it was my fault for not being able to defend myself.

Right. I don't mean to single rape out as the only crime that's ever been met with police indifference. But, and I don't mean to belittle your experience here, I'm sure you'd agree that assault is generally a few steps down the ladder from rape and murder in terms of severity. It's obviously not really okay for the police to do that with any serious crime, but the worse the crime, the more egregious it is for the police to take that attitude with it, and things are definitely a bit out of balance in the case of rape.

I don't take anyone seriously who quotes only a portion of a sentance. That was a comma, not a period. Rather than cherry picking you should commit to a full rebutle if you are going to laugh in my face over the internet, ya little jerk.

Well that's a problem with your shitty grammar, chief. Grammatically, that should have been a period, or at least a semicolon. What I quoted was a complete statement.

More to the point, I've made a number of lengthy, serious rebuttals in this thread. There's a reason yours didn't warrant the effort. I've seen hundreds of people go through the cognitive dissonance that occurs when "I consider myself to be pretty intelligent, aware, and a good person" meets "If this unfamiliar new concept is true, then it follows that I have been a part of something very bad" and the end result is, "Therefore, this unfamiliar new concept must be wrong, and stupid." I don't think I've ever seen it hit someone so hard that the conclusion becomes "Therefore, this unfamiliar new concept must not exist."

 

[Future]

All things considered, I don't think the original objection was that the comic could cause a trigger. I think it was submitted as an example of a culture that trivializes rape.

And let's face it - if there's a culture that trivializes the use of the word "rape," it's gamer culture. But that's another discussion.

Gamers or anything competitive trivializes everything. When you lose badly at anything, you get slaughtered, maimed, raped, destroyed, killed, etc. It's clear that anyone that uses these terms aren't really promoting death and crime. It's pretty damn obvious what people mean, so I hate it when people try to create mountains out of nothing.

People will continue using these terms till the end of time. Why? Cuz they get the point across. No one will ever care how insensitive they may be because being sensitive is not the goal when talking smack.

That rant is a bit off topic, considering this comic. But even this is Getting exaggerated. People just dig arguing and creating problems when there should be none. Penny arcade has always had offensive comedy, and it's been very successful. But with success comes mainstream backlash as evidenced here. Dealwithit.gif

 

[charlequin]

I'm sure triggers exist, but what about the PA webcomic is a rape trigger, really?

The phrase "raped to sleep," actually, is my guess. That phrase is evocative in a way the word "rape" alone isn't (because it's so specific) and it could easily bring back specific memories for people who were abused as children or suffered marital rape.

Again, I don't generally feel that trying to police content for triggers is very effective, specifically because they're often innocuous things (although it also can't really hurt to provide warnings for suicide, rape, and abuse in most contexts) and I don't, broadly, think the criticism of Penny Arcade for the original strip was in proportion to what actually happened, but it's not hard for me to believe that someone could read that strip and have a triggered reaction.

 

[Nickiepoo]

We should change the title of this thread so that new people jumping into it don't automatically assume that anyone here actually thinks that the Dickwolf comic was offensive.

 

[Sqorgar]

Pretty sure the original comic was not about making fun of rape or rape victims, either. They were making fun of the questionable morality of your stereotypical RPG quests.

That's not what this is about. Someone got offended at it, yes. They overreacted, yes. But Penny Arcade's response is what really caused this brouhaha. Nobody gave a crap about what a crazy person on the internet thought of that comic until Penny Arcade created the response comic which was offensive and insulting even to people who aren't reactionary feminists. And following that, creating a dickwolves t-shirt? That can't be seen as a "fuck you" to rape victims at all. Mocking rape triggers? Not offensive in the least. They'll begrudgingly remove the shirt from the store, but then Gabe announces proudly that he'll wear his anyway? Who could see that as an asshole thing to do?

I'm sure the people who got offended by the dickwolves comic and started the debate on this whole thing were deeply offended by the Daily Show segment last night as well.

Actually, I'd bet money that they were more offended by the people trying to redefine and trivialize rape - the very people the Daily Show was rallying against.

 

[twinturbo2]

I don't think this is going to go away any time soon...

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/02/my-point-here-it-is.html

 

[Haunted]

We should change the title of this thread so that new people jumping into it don't automatically assume that anyone here actually thinks that the Dickwolf comic was offensive.

That's not what this is about. Someone got offended at it, yes. They overreacted, yes. But Penny Arcade's response is what really caused this brouhaha. Nobody gave a crap about what a crazy person on the internet thought of that comic until Penny Arcade created the response comic which was offensive and insulting even to people who aren't reactionary feminists. And following that, creating a dickwolves t-shirt? That can't be seen as a "fuck you" to rape victims at all. Mocking rape triggers? Not offensive in the least. They'll begrudgingly remove the shirt from the store, but then Gabe announces proudly that he'll wear his anyway? Who could see that as an asshole thing to do?

Ah, ok. I didn't know there was a consensus on the original comic. That's good, that satisfies me.

I've little interest in what followed after, people involved on both sides (Gabe and the blog lady going back and forth) are being stupid and inconsiderate. Arguing on the internet, lol.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I don't think this is going to go away any time soon...

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/02/my-point-here-it-is.html

She's right about one thing: the asshole internet trolls are just reinforcing her position.

 

[Future]

I don't think this is going to go away any time soon...

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/02/my-point-here-it-is.html

Goddamit. I imagine the core of this thread is debating whether or not there is any "approval of rape culture" as this is where no one will ever agree

 

[Calcaneus]

I don't think this is going to go away any time soon...

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/02/my-point-here-it-is.html

Eh, they're basically at the closing arguments stage of this debate. She does make a few good points, she never really went beyond her blog when voicing her feelings on the comic. If PA's side can use the argument "don't go to the site if you don't want to see stuff like that", she can use the same argument on her side. Its not like she was pushing this or starting a campaign to censor PA or anything. I may disagree with a lot of her other points, but I can respect that.

 

[LCfiner]

I don't think this is going to go away any time soon...

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/02/my-point-here-it-is.html

she wrote this:

"When I ask a person not to engage in rape apologia in this space, because it is my space and I have not only not consented to host rape apologia here, but have also explicitly and repeatedly deemed it off-limits, and that person continues to engage in rape apologia nonetheless, without regard for my boundaries or personal autonomy, that's not exactly someone who's demonstrating a commitment to the notions of consent, autonomy, and respect.

That's someone who's leveraging the values of a rape culture to violate my boundaries.

That's someone who's acting like a fucking rapist."


equating internet trolls and harassment to rape. and meaning it

fucking perfect.

yeah, it's definitely best for PA to ignore these people.

 

[Grecco]

Imagine that—a bunch of dipshits who find a comic about rape funny have no respect for boundaries or consent.

Doesnt sound to me like "it was about the fallout, nobody thought the original comic was about rape".

 

[ultron87]

I don't think this is going to go away any time soon...

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/02/my-point-here-it-is.html

Oh my gosh, people posted things that she didn't like on her blog that allows open unmoderated commenting! And then when she banned them they just made new accounts!

It's almost like she was standing on a street corner saying her opinions and someone came up and told her something she didn't like! And then when she asked them to get off this street corner they didn't and kept talking to her!

Damn, these open forums of public opinion need to stop propagating rape culture.

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

I don't think this is going to go away any time soon...

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/02/my-point-here-it-is.html

I couldn't care less about this controversy, but put me on PA's team by default if people like this are the opposition.

 

[noire]

And if there were as many black people as white people, that would be an important distinction to make. But it is meaningless in discussing whether black people have greater issues with rape, in general, than whites. The percentage of black rape victims is much higher than whites when accounting for race. Similarly, minority groups are far less likely to report crimes to the police, so of that estimated 74% of of unreported rape, it is almost undoubtedly going to increase the numbers of minority rape - perhaps significantly so.

Just crunching some census numbers. 155.6 million women in the US. 73% white/hispanic, 12.5% african american. That's 113.59m and 19.45m respectively. Taking 90% (female portion) of the earlier numbers for reported rape (194,270 and 17,920) leaves you with 174,843 and 16,128. Which means that 0.17% of white/hispanic women have reported being raped and 0.09% of black women have reported being raped.

While I agree that poverty and race play a role in reporting crimes, I would argue that the personal nature of rape greatly reduces the role that socioeconomics play here. Unfortunately, I can't find any information to back this up. It's just based on anecdotal evidence and extrapolation from other data.

The U.S. Justice Department suggests that only 26% of rapes are being reported. I think we can assume that 0% of the unreported rapes are false reports. According to what I can find, the percentage of reported rapes that are considered false by the FBI is around 8%. So, 8% of those 26% are considered false.

Let's do the math. There were about 250,000 reported rapes according to that study, which means that nationwide, about 20,000 false reports. But if those are only 26% of the reports, then that's around 1 million rapes total. Not really the flip side, I'd say.

And I think you might run afoul of a feminist for that comment. They tend to think that saying that a lot of rape reports are fake marginalizes rape and makes it harder for the real victims to be taken seriously.

I don't worry about offending people in general. Much less so when it's something that is relevant. The bigger offenders here are the people making the false claims. The issue shouldn't be 'we need to stop people from talking about fake victims' to 'we need to educate people not to fake this, because it marginalizes the real victims'. I'm guessing that's something we can agree on.

Let me say that rape is a horrible thing that is a blight on our society - all our societies. It doesn't matter what race, religion, culture, or creed one belongs to, rape is unfortunately a commonality we all share, must all be aware of, and must all work against.

Again, agreed.

Also, trigger warnings are for the victims who are suffering from PTSD, not generally their families. Again, I think a feminist might take offense at how you used it.

Again, I am not worried about offending, because I am an asshole. That said, it was me dismissing the notion that you can warn against triggers. The first experience I had with a rape trigger was an unset VCR flashing 12:00. You can't forsee the shit that is going to awaken a memory. And while I appreciate people trying to be sensitive about them, it's futile. The subject is just too broad.

Good discussion, but I've said way more than I've wanted to say on the subject. I have to deal with enough of this shit in my daily life. I'm getting back to video games.

 

[Nickiepoo]

Doesnt sound to me like "it was about the fallout, nobody thought the original comic was about rape".

Well someone had to get offended originally, but they are a small core of people who will get offended over anything like this being in the mainstream. That's not why there was a huge backlash from people who've never otherwise shown any interest in the rape-culture argument.

I couldn't care less about this controversy, but put me on PA's team by default if people like this are the opposition.

Well, if you look at the ring-leaders on each side it's 'all men are encouraging rape-culture with their humour!' vs 'encouraging rape-culture feels pretty good, buy a team-rape shirt!' so take your pick.

These are not what they're actually saying, mind, just what members of the other side are saying that they're saying.

 

[Jinaar]

http://www.theweinerworks.com/?p=344.

All sorts of brilliance here. Does it relate to this? A group of people having issue with someone else? Read it if you have time and use the links to see the comic in question.

 

[Coxswain]

equating internet trolls and harassment to rape. and meaning it

Did you read past those sentences? It's actually a very coherent and reasonable piece of work. In particular, these two paragraphs outline her point of view on "rape culture" as an issue of "consent, autonomy, and boundaries" rather than strictly referring to sexual assault:

The rape culture is not just about actual and attempted acts of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment, but also about all the other ways in which contempt and/or indifference toward other human beings' consent, autonomy, boundaries, and right to halt any unwanted interaction in their personal spaces are violated.

[...]

The act of rape itself is not just about sexual violence; it is also about hostility toward another human being's consent, autonomy, and boundaries—and you don't have to actually be physically violating another person to show hostility toward hir consent, autonomy, and boundaries. And that is the point of the rape culture.

You may or may not think it's appropriate for her to attach a charged word like "rape" to any and all interactions that violate consent, etc - it's definitely a framing device designed to shock the senses and stir up an emotional reaction - but as she's using the term, it's pretty clear she's not implying that trolls on her website are literally the same thing as physical rapists.


(Personally, she lost me at the end in the absolutely-positively-zero-tolerance, with-me-or-against-me rhetoric, but everything up until that point is pretty reasonable and insightful, as long as you don't kneejerk on the framing.)

 

[GatorBait]

I couldn't care less about this controversy, but put me on PA's team by default if people like this are the opposition.

"If you're on PA's team, you're on the team of 'rape culture!'"

(This is the author of that article.)

 

[APF]

I don't think it's reasonable to hold creators responsible for possible PTSD responses to their work. A person's recovery is personal; it is their own matter, it's not on the rest of the world to heap-on pity and lament--nor should it be--and it's certainly not on the rest of the world to stop creating because someone somewhere might react poorly to those creations. There's such a big difference between saying, "hey I think you stepped over the line there and maybe you aren't aware that people can find that triggering or traumatic," and saying you are a prime example enhancing a culture that minimizes the seriousness of traumatic events, and expressing disappointment that you have a moral failing in that regard. Before we argue it's not the act it's the response, lets look at what the response was responding to and apply that principle equally.

 

[Christine]

The rape culture is not just about actual and attempted acts of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment, but also about all the other ways in which contempt and/or indifference toward other human beings' consent, autonomy, boundaries, and right to halt any unwanted interaction in their personal spaces are violated.

That's a bit of a high bar. With standards like that, it's no wonder that she perceives the presence of a rape culture. I'm not saying that there isn't one, but I don't think her viewpoint is a good measure to use. It's arguable that she'd perceive a rape culture in any society that might conceivably exist.

 

[LCfiner]

Did you read past those sentences? It's actually a very coherent and reasonable piece of work. In particular, these two paragraphs outline her point of view on "rape culture" as an issue of "consent, autonomy, and boundaries" rather than strictly referring to sexual assault:

I found essentially none of her writing in that post to be insightful or reasonable, no.

 

[poppabk]

Right. I don't mean to single rape out as the only crime that's ever been met with police indifference. But, and I don't mean to belittle your experience here, I'm sure you'd agree that assault is generally a few steps down the ladder from rape and murder in terms of severity. It's obviously not really okay for the police to do that with any serious crime, but the worse the crime, the more egregious it is for the police to take that attitude with it, and things are definitely a bit out of balance in the case of rape.

I would say that my particular assault was not particularly harrowing but it was the same kind of random attack that leads to cases like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster
or this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/halloween-reveller-beaten-to-death-1813479.html
or this:
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-norfolk/elderly-arizona-man-beaten-to-death-by-teens-virginia
or this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/student-beaten-to-death-for-taking-the-mickey-1497910.html

 

[Sqorgar]

equating internet trolls and harassment to rape. and meaning it

fucking perfect.

Trust me, you do not want to be trolled by the PA fanbase. Equating it to a traumatic experience of being violated is hardly a stretch.

 

[LCfiner]

Trust me, you do not want to be trolled by the PA fanbase. Equating it to a traumatic experience of being violated is hardly a stretch.

yes, we get it. they fucked you up.

it's still a shit analogy from someone who doesn't want people to trivialize rape.