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[Kintaro]

I had a nice reply for the author...then I remembered reading last night that she took offense to the lack of sexual hostility towards woman in some of her TV shows.

Whatever. In the future, PA should just ignore people like this.

 

[Neuromancer]

Trust me, you do not want to be trolled by the PA fanbase. Equating it to a traumatic experience of being violated is hardly a stretch.

Oh for ffs dude let it go.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Equating it to a traumatic experience of being violated is hardly a stretch.

 

[APF]

Showing hostility towards one's autonomy is an extremely broad classification to be swinging around when you're attacking another's artistic expression.

 

[Sqorgar]

Oh for ffs dude let it go.

He acted like it was an absurd connection to make, as if she were trivializing rape. I said it wasn't, suggesting that he was making assumptions without any real knowledge on the subject. I'm not sure where I stepped over a line here.

 

[Kintaro]

Showing hostility towards one's autonomy is an extremely broad classification to be swinging around when you're attacking another's artistic expression.

The voice against "rape culture" perpetuates it by objecting to others artistic expression?

I wonder if her head just exploded.

 

[LCfiner]

He acted like it was an absurd connection to make, as if she were trivializing rape. I said it wasn't, suggesting that he was making assumptions without any real knowledge on the subject. I'm not sure where I stepped over a line here.

during your ordeals with the harassment from PA's fanbase, did anyone ever repeatedly punch you in the face, rip off your pants, and, while you were too scared and tired to fight back, forcibly insert their penis into your anus?

if they did, then I apologize for assuming that the analogy was trivializing rape.

 

[Neuromancer]

He acted like it was an absurd connection to make, as if she were trivializing rape. I said it wasn't, suggesting that he was making assumptions without any real knowledge on the subject. I'm not sure where I stepped over a line here.

You didn't cross a line other than we all know your history with PA, you fought them and lost, and still have hard feelings over it. I'm just saying let it go man, just let it go.

 

[Sqorgar]

during your ordeals with the harassment from PA's fanbase, did anyone ever repeatedly punch you in the face, rip off your pants, and, while you were too scared and tired to fight back, forcibly insert their penis into your anus?

That's one kind of rape, but it's not even the most common kind. Rape is frequently between people who know each other - spouses, family members, coworkers, teachers, doctors, etc - and frequently involves no violence at all. Heck, sometimes it is even consensual of a sorts, though you can't consider it consensual when there is coercion at play. Do not make the mistake of thinking that rape is just done in alley ways by burly men in ski masks, because that kind of misconception leads to people misreading a situation and declaring it not rape when it most certainly is.

Second, the trauma associated with rape rarely comes from the sexual acts themselves. It's far too complex to get into here, but it is largely about how the violation was extremely personal, and the way it changes your self image and worth. The way it can change your identity and way of coping with the world. And yes, dealing with the Penny Arcade fans can lead to those kind of problems.

To answer you question directly, there have been no penises penetrating my anus, but there has been a couple photoshops of exactly that. Not sure if that counts as enough sexual assault for you.

How about death threats? Penny Arcade freaked out over one. I've had hundreds. And these weren't "funny joke: someone go to Mike's house and murder his family" comments. I'm talking about "I'm going to come to your house at 1234 XXXX Ave - the yellow house with the brown windows - and slit your throat before I rape your corpse". An offhanded comment suggesting your untimely demise isn't a death threat. It's the ones where they get detailed personal information that can really freak you out.

Was I raped? Of course not. Did I encounter abuse and threats to my safety? Yeah, I did.

 

[Coxswain]

Showing hostility towards one's autonomy is an extremely broad classification to be swinging around when you're attacking another's artistic expression.

Attacking someone's expressed art is not the same as attacking someone's artistic expression. At no point has she ever said that Penny-Arcade shouldn't be allowed to make comics she finds offensive; only that they shouldn't.

Nobody has the right to not be offended; everybody has the right to be offended.
A comedian (or any artist) has the right to express themselves however they'd like to; they do not have the right to receive only positive feedback on their work.



Edit: Whoops, I forgot about this post:

I would say that my particular assault was not particularly harrowing but it was the same kind of random attack that leads to cases like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster
or this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/halloween-reveller-beaten-to-death-1813479.html
or this:
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-norfolk/elderly-arizona-man-beaten-to-death-by-teens-virginia
or this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/student-beaten-to-death-for-taking-the-mickey-1497910.html

You're right. I probably diminished the severity of assault in my mind because it was convenient to my argument. Consider that specific angle to my argument dropped, although I do maintain my broader point, that rape is overall pretty differently regarded in culture from pure-violence crimes like assault and murder.

 

[Hellsing321]

This thread is just going around in circles.

 

[Neuromancer]

This thread is just going around in circles.

Yeah I know what you mean. I think I'm done.

 

[APF]

Attacking someone's expressed art is not the same as attacking someone's artistic expression.

You're not saying anything that hasn't already been discussed. I am discussing the point I referenced, you are not.

 

[Coxswain]

You're not saying anything that hasn't already been discussed. I am discussing the point I referenced, you are not.

Then which point are you referencing? The "Showing hostility towards one's autonomy" half of your post is more or less what she's applied to every aspect involved here, from her opinion of the original Dickwolves comic to the people trolling and ban-evading on her blog comments, so that's not really a 'point' so much as 'every single part of her argument'. The only 'artistic expression' I can think of that's involved anywhere in this whole ordeal are Penny-Arcade's comics. Please elucidate.

 

[APF]

Then which point are you referencing? The "Showing hostility towards one's autonomy" half of your post is more or less what she's applied to every aspect involved here, from her opinion of the original Dickwolves comic to the people trolling and ban-evading on her blog comments, so that's not really a 'point' so much as 'every single part of her argument'. The only 'artistic expression' I can think of that's involved anywhere in this whole ordeal are Penny-Arcade's comics. Please elucidate.

I have no idea what you just wrote. Infringing on one's autonomy and attacking one's artistic expression (the noun of that expression) are one and the same (because it's so broad). The rest of your (other) post was just a "free expression doesn't mean free from criticism," which has already been argued and answered by, "nor does ability to criticize immunize you from criticism"

 

[Coxswain]

Infringing on one's autonomy and attacking one's artistic expression (the noun of that expression) are one and the same.

You're going to have to explain how this is the case. "I think what you said is stupid" (an attack on your 'art') is in no way equal to "You should not be allowed to say things that I don't think are smart" (an attack on your autonomy).

 

[Tenkei]

No. The differences in context exist entirely in your head, to support your version of the argument. Statement A in a context where it is understood to be a joke is identical to Statement B in the same situation, and likewise for a situation where either statement should be taken seriously.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I encourage you to come up with an argument ending with both sentences that have equivalent power, because I really don't see it, especially considering how long the argument has been going on.

Well, first, I'm confused about why I'm supposed to be examining that blog post in a vacuum as if it has nothing to do with the comic that accompanied it (or as if it is suddenly the point of contention that my argument hinges on), which was posted on the exact same day and was meant to respond to the exact same complaints.

I am trying to understand your viewpoint, since you present the quote to validate anonymous death threats (from 4chan, for all I know. That place has made good on many of its threats before) as a response to immaturity on Gabe's part. For all we know, the sarcastic response comic was for all the email he received, not necessarily the blog post from shakesville. I think it's fair to interpret the response comic both ways, and I personally believe that the comic could have done better to illustrate the message of their blog response, but I'm not the one taking them to task for it.

My stance is that both sides should have stopped after the original comic, but everyone has to have the final say on the Internet for some reason, which is why I am quite aware of the irony of me replying to you. That xkcd comic ("Can't go to sleep. Someone is WRONG on the Internet.") I feel is an appropriate decomposition of the entire affair.

That aside, the blog post is not explicitly insulting, but was definitely highly ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) and completely irrational and dismissive.
Ignorant, in the sense that he clearly hasn't educated himself as to what his critics are talking about when they say that the original comic bothered them, and he states flat out that he doesn't understand it. If you find yourself in that position, you should definitely stop stirring up the argument, and go learn more about the arguments you're presented with or, at the very least, just shut your mouth and stop talking about the issue.

I do agree that one should refrain from arguing about a topic without some knowledge in that topic, but I disagree that the onus should be on him to educate himself when his opponents spring the topic on him from left field. As he states clearly in his response, long-time readers have been exposed to all sorts of horrible themes used as the punchline, so why does this comic in particular anger people when it's used in a non-minimizing way to frame the punchline? Somehow I doubt that those angry enough to raise their voice were civil enough to explain to him the difference, and how they perceived the comic to be minimizing an issue versus merely referencing an issue.

Irrational and dismissive, because he pretty directly insinuates that nobody is "allowed" to be offended by any particular strip if they aren't offended by every other strip that could be construed as offensive. That's meant to get across the idea that their viewpoint isn't worth considering because they're hypocritical.

I don't think it's irrational to state that you don't understand why people are angry with you. I do think it's irrational to conclude from that admission that you are attacking their views.

To end it with, "Well, we just find different stuff funny, I guess" is an acceptable thing to do if you just don't feel like getting involved in the argument. It's not acceptable when you release it alongside an insult and follow it up with further insults.

So you would agree then that ending the argument with the blog post and not with the response comic would have been appropriate?

Right, so, just so I have this clear and in writing: Based not on evidence, not on context, and entirely on the fact that you're predisposed to liking and agreeing with a guy who you're familiar with, you assume that when he says something like, "You're batshit insane for having that reaction to my comic", or "Promoting rape culture feels pretty good", he is clearly joking.

Why would I assume anything about someone without any context? Your first paraphrased quote (which in context, I think you're wrong to interpret as such) could be a response to me throwing up and getting explosive diarrhoea after the Topicana snack strips, or me mounting an assault against my government because of the Splinter Cell strips. The second statement would make me think less of you if you said that out of nowhere, and in context, I'd still think you were being awkward when you use it as a sarcastic response to a stupid question. If you were Ricky Gervais, I automatically would assume statements taken out of context (and not horrible paraphrasing) were jokes, because you are a comedian. See what I did there?

You also assume, based on the same complete and total lack of evidence, and the fact that he is disagreeing with a guy who you like and are familiar with, that if a person you don't know says something like, "Man, it would be hilarious if your wife and kids died", then he is to be taken absolutely, 100% seriously at face value, and it is perfectly fair to characterize him as literally thinking of going out and killing several people. And that it is tremendously unlikely that he was thinking, "Boy, Gabe sure has bleated on and on about how people should just ignore jokes they find offensive; I wonder if he'll take his own advice when I make a joke that pushes his buttons?"

If I was in a heated argument with someone and they mentioned murdering me in jest, I would likely reply with, "WTF?" and depending on the context, I'd furiously think about why one would bring that into an argument. If someone wearing a balaclava walked up to me and said that he was going to murder me because of what I said to someone else, I don't think it would be irrational for me to run away and call the police.

So, without any evidence, can you say that whoever dropped the threat in jest was of the first type, or the second type?

 

[APF]

You're going to have to explain how this is the case. "I think what you said is stupid" (an attack on your 'art') is in no way equal to "You should not be allowed to say things that I don't think are smart" (an attack on your autonomy).

"Showing hostility towards one's autonomy"

 

[daegan]

sad, disgusting truths

To suggest that such a quality of stalking is exclusive or even semi-unique to PA's fanbase is ridiculous. Herd mentality, anonymity and the internet breed these activities in "fans" of a lot of different things; or in the case of 4chan's /b/ userbase, fans of nothing in particular except for causing others pain.

I think to take a look at the people who have harassed you and label them "the PA fanbase" is foolish. They may or may not actually read PA; however they are definitely fucked up in the head. They could've come from anywhere.

 

[Sqorgar]

To suggest that such a quality of stalking is exclusive or even semi-unique to PA's fanbase is ridiculous. Herd mentality, anonymity and the internet breed these activities in "fans" of a lot of different things; or in the case of 4chan's /b/ userbase, fans of nothing in particular except for causing others pain.

I never said it was exclusive to PA's fanbase. Heck, I've had unrelated abusive stalkers that were MY fans. And I do not, in any way, blame Penny Arcade for the actions of the more depraved of their fans.

I think to take a look at the people who have harassed you and label them "the PA fanbase" is foolish. They may or may not actually read PA; however they are definitely fucked up in the head. They could've come from anywhere.

Absolutely. There's a certain amount of this stuff that just comes with being a public figure. Every time I hear someone wish out loud that they were famous, I can't help but feel sorry for them. Being known does not mean being liked, and even if you are the nicest, most well liked person in the world, some crazy person is going blame you for their cat dying or something. But it is a lot easier to develop these insane followers when someone points them in your direction. There is such a thing as bad publicity.

And it was Penny Arcade's fanbase. Absolutely it was. My home address and phone number were posted in the PA forums, for example. And many of the worst emails quoted Mike and Jerry as if they were close personal friends. I don't think they would want anything to do with those sorts of people, but they simply don't know and don't care what people are out there doing in their name. It wasn't JUST the PA fanbase, mind you, since Penny Arcade's fighting words spread out to the webcomic community at large, and I was fighting off fans of other comics that joined the fight based on one sided misinformation. But certainly the worst of it happened from those who self identified themselves as fans of Penny Arcade.

The way I see it, Gabe was simply careless. He took a gross misunderstanding and painted it as some great injustice to the readers of his website. Like I said earlier, one of the worst things you can be seen as on the internet is some sort of censor, and that's exactly what they said I was. Some guy who "threatened to shut them down". I was an enemy of not only Penny Arcade, but also truth, justice, and the America Way, and some people don't need half that justification to act like assholes.

My problem with what Penny Arcade did, and continues to do, is not being aware of the consequences of their actions. Gabe causes trouble all the time, and when he gets in over his head, he makes his dispute public, giving an entirely one sided description of events, and knowing full well that his fans will continue the battle for him. Heck, even in this thread, we've got people coming in on page 25 confused about what the original complaint about the rapewolves comic actually was. When Gabe says you did something, nobody asks if you really did and nobody listens when you shout that you didn't.

What Gabe needs to do is... well, first, he needs to stop picking fights. Then he needs to stop making his fights public. And finally, when his fans go to far, he needs to step in and tell them to knock it off. That's a lot of ask of Gabe, but he'll get there.

(Tycho is the far more reasonable one, and if you have to deal with PA, deal with him alone and away from Gabe. I've had many good discussions with him in the years since. But you can't rely on Tycho alone to actually do something because Tycho is more of an observer than someone who actually goes forth and acts. Even his reasonable response to the dickwolves controversy basically amounted to, some stuff happened, I don't understand it, and I'm powerless to affect it. Whatcha gonna do?)

 

[Hylian7]

I haven't really been following this issue until now, but I really think this whole thing has escalated waaaaaaaaay on what it should have. I'm freaking reading "rape culture" in relation to this everywhere. What the fucking fuck does "rape culture" even mean?! This whole thing is a series of people overreacting, and now I'm not even sure what the last two pages of this thread are even arguing about anymore.

The bottom line however, is that they need to be consistent on their stance on it. Making the comic and then apoligising (ha) for it and then later removing the shirts from the store is not consistent!

Otherwise, this issue is pretty much worth ignoring and doesn't deserve near the attention it's getting.

 

[Kintaro]

Interesting how any dissenting opinion/comment to the Shakesville piece was modded away. Then the author gets upset when people email her asking why they were modded away. She writes...

General Thread Note: I don't know how to state this any more plainly: IF YOU ARE BANNED FROM THIS THREAD, IT IS NOT AN INVITATION TO TAKE YOUR ISSUES TO MY INBOX.

Responding to having your commenting privileges revoked in my public space by trying to contact me directly in my private space is exactly the kind of disrespect for boundaries that this post is about, for fuck's sake.

Hilarious considering her email is in a very public place (the very top right) and even has a pop up asking which email app you would like to us.

So, she puts her email right on the top of her website, then says that if you email her, its disrespecting her boundaries. It's pretty clear and this group just wants to pat itself on the back and not want to hear any differing opinions.

Then again, we're saying PA should have just done the same, so whatever.

 

[minus_273]

.

The way I see it, Gabe was simply careless. He took a gross misunderstanding and painted it as some great injustice to the readers of his website. Like I said earlier, one of the worst things you can be seen as on the internet is some sort of censor, and that's exactly what they said I was. Some guy who "threatened to shut them down". I was an enemy of not only Penny Arcade, but also truth, justice, and the America Way, and some people don't need half that justification to act like assholes.

your side is all about censorship. you are telling people to change the way they act and talk to tip toe around your fragile mental state. No one outside of the feminist community knows nor cares about "rape culture" its a code word for your political acolytes that outsiders dont get. You are the equivalent of a cult leader sounding the alarm because someone offended your alien god unknowingly. You cant expect us to know this stuff because we're not crazy.

Interesting how any dissenting opinion/comment to the Shakesville piece was modded away. Then the author gets upset when people email her asking why they were modded away. She writes...



.

nono they are all about free speech and an exchange of ideas, not censorship at all !

 

[Kintaro]

nono they are all about free speech and an exchange of ideas, not censorship at all !

My bad. Carry on.

 

[Wichu]

"If you're on PA's team, you're on the team of 'rape culture!'"

http://www.moonbattery.com/melissa-mcewan.jpg[IMG]

(This is the author of that article.)[/QUOTE]
Is it just me, or is her facial expression identical to Gabe's in the first panel of the 'apology' strip?

 

[Sqorgar]

your side is all about censorship. you are telling people to change the way they act and talk to tip toe around your fragile mental state. No one outside of the feminist community knows nor cares about "rape culture" its a code word for your political acolytes that outsiders dont get. You are the equivalent of a cult leader sounding the alarm because someone offended your alien god unknowingly. You cant expect us to know this stuff because we're not crazy.

What? I... MY SIDE? Where the hell are you getting this? Why do people just come in here with opinions based on fantasy and expect the things they say to be some sort of brilliance?

First of all, I do not, in any way, shape, or form, align myself with the feminist blogger in all this. As I've stated in this thread, repeatedly, I think she's crazy. I think rape culture is bullshit. I take rape seriously and because of that, I've had to spend more than ten minutes listening to her side of the story before coming to that conclusion, but that does not mean that I agree with HER. I do, however, think that some of the other people involved in this - the ones that have spoken privately and reasonably - have something of a valid point, or at the very least, have the right to make one.

Second, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything they don't want to. Even the crazy feminist blogger. Trying to change someone's mind through nonviolent, reasoned discourse and debate in not censorship. It's the very definition of free speech and the reason WHY we fucking have free speech in the first place. Do you even know why free speech is a protected right above all others? This. This right here. Discourse and debate. It's the foundation of every single important thing in your life, from science to politics to faith to society to family, and it would behoove you to learn the difference between debate and censorship.

Third, my position in all this is that I think Penny Arcade should, not change the way they make their comics, but change the way the engage in senseless, destructive internet battles using their fans as weapons. I'm not going to force them to mature and grow up, but gosh golly, I'd like to see it.

 

[Rolf NB]

Please stop perpetuating bonehead culture.

 

[Monroeski]

your side is all about censorship. you are telling people to change the way they act and talk to tip toe around your fragile mental state. No one outside of the feminist community knows nor cares about "rape culture" its a code word for your political acolytes that outsiders dont get. You are the equivalent of a cult leader sounding the alarm because someone offended your alien god unknowingly. You cant expect us to know this stuff because we're not crazy.



nono they are all about free speech and an exchange of ideas, not censorship at all !

I'm pretty sure he was talking about his dispute with PA 8 years ago in what you quoted, not this most recent "rape culture" thing.

Interesting how any dissenting opinion/comment to the Shakesville piece was modded away. Then the author gets upset when people email her asking why they were modded away. She writes...



Hilarious considering her email is in a very public place (the very top right) and even has a pop up asking which email app you would like to us.

So, she puts her email right on the top of her website, then says that if you email her, its disrespecting her boundaries. It's pretty clear and this group just wants to pat itself on the back and not want to hear any differing opinions.

Then again, we're saying PA should have just done the same, so whatever.

If this thing is as much about respecting ANY boundaries as it is about actual sexual assault, then she reeeeeally needs to come up with a name for it that's not as inflammatory as "rape culture." "Rape" has a very, very specific connotation, but she's trying to act like we should all just throw away the widely accepted usage of the term and go with her version.

 

[Orin GA]

I......cant....ah....oh god....

*closes thread*.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

sqorqer annihilated on this page

 

[V_Arnold]

Sqorgar, you are an amazing broken record.

PA fanbase is the weapon. Gabe is the hand who controls it, sipping whisky in dark alleys while planning how to harass you. Seriously now. You were the one going into that fight of yours with threatining legal action, and your case only has proven that internet information can be found on almost anyone, especially if he is an author of some sort. You pissed of a lot of people, therefore some idiots went too far. But this connection making with PA's "leading figures" and crazy persons... well, I do not know what I can conclude with which was not said pages ago here.

Stop it.

 

[Sqorgar]

Sqorgar, you are an amazing broken record.

PA fanbase is the weapon. Gabe is the hand who controls it, sipping whisky in dark allyes while planning how to harass you. Seriously now. You were the one going into that fight of yours with threatining legal action, and your case only has proven that internet information can be found on almost anyone, especially if he is an author of some sort. You pissed of a lot of people, therefore some idiots went too far. But this connection making with PA's "leading figures" and crazy persons... well, I do not know what I can conclude with which was not said pages ago here.

Stop it.

You know me so well - what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, what I need to do with my life - and yet you get basic, simple facts completely and dreadfully wrong. Truly, your omnipotence impresses me. I mean it. I am in awe here. OooOOOoooOOOooh <-- Sound of me being in awe.

 

[Zabka]

Sqorgar. Go out to a diner, get a nice brunch and move on.

 

[Dead Man]

You know me so well - what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, what I need to do with my life - and yet you get basic, simple facts completely and dreadfully wrong. Truly, your omnipotence impresses me. I mean it. I am in awe here. OooOOOoooOOOooh <-- Sound of me being in awe.

I know I am not supposed to find levity in this thread at the moment, but I just imagined your avatar saying that, and cracked up.

 

[Sqorgar]

I know I am not supposed to find levity in this thread at the moment, but I just imagined your avatar saying that, and cracked up.

This is not commonly known, but Dagon is also the eldritch lord of irony & sarcasm. Never invite a Deep One over for dinner. Hipsters. When they tell you that they like what you've done with the place... they don't.

 

[DrEvil]

Who is this Sqorgar and why does he think he's so popular?

I've tried to read the majority of this thread but it makes my brain hurt.

 

[Diffense]

I didn't get the joke.
I am also trying to imagine why this thread is so many pages.

Humour can be offensive and every comic should know he has to gauge his audience.
I can't imagine that most Americans would find jokes about the death of American soldiers very funny at all.
I can't see Jews chuckling at Holocaust jokes or African Americans laughing at lynching being made light of.
So if a rape victim finds it offensive for rape to be a punch line, I can understand that.

I think the PA guys miscalculated.
If you're trying to be funny and it's not funny, that's a bad joke.

 

[Monroeski]

Who is this Sqorgar and why does he think he's so popular?

I've tried to read the majority of this thread but it makes my brain hurt.

He had a webcomic vs webcomic tiff with PA 8 years ago. Penny Arcade threads are like the flame to his moth.

 

[DrEvil]

He had a webcomic vs webcomic tiff with PA 8 years ago. Penny Arcade threads are like the flame to his moth.

Wow.. talk about trying to hold on to your fifteen minutes...

 

[tiff]

Interesting how any dissenting opinion/comment to the Shakesville piece was modded away. Then the author gets upset when people email her asking why they were modded away. She writes...



Hilarious considering her email is in a very public place (the very top right) and even has a pop up asking which email app you would like to us.

So, she puts her email right on the top of her website, then says that if you email her, its disrespecting her boundaries. It's pretty clear and this group just wants to pat itself on the back and not want to hear any differing opinions.

Then again, we're saying PA should have just done the same, so whatever.

Not to disagree with your point, but if you get banned from her page you should really know why by this point. I don't see the point of e-mailing her except to annoy her.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

i ran into sqorqer once at a convention, he tried to grab my ass at a urinal

 

[Sqorgar]

Wow.. talk about trying to hold on to your fifteen minutes...

Let me get this straight. You make pronouncements on the character of another poster based on a thread you admitted you haven't read and can't understand?

Anybody who knows me - and apparently, you all know me very well - knows that I like to have long, in depth debates on controversial subjects. It's not an attention thing. I honestly, truly enjoy serious debates. I have had many of them with many different people on many different subjects. In fact, I'm having debates in email right now on atheism and flag burning. This one is about the responsibilities of public figures in how they deal with with fringe opinions and how they share the opinions of those who look up to them. It has, largely, been an excellent debate that I have enjoyed greatly.

I've been talking about my past experiences with Penny Arcade in this thread, something that I do not do often anymore, because it is relevant to the discussion at hand. I have burned an American flag in a very public way and I have not brought it up here because it is irrelevant. However, in debates about flag burning and the freedom of speech, I do draw from my own experiences such as that. When I discuss gay marriage, I bring up people I have known that were gay and their opinions on the matter as they have been shared with me. There are aspects of my life that help shape my opinions on matters and I feel that sharing them as part of a debate is a natural and helpful way of allowing others to understand where I am coming from. It is not an attention thing. It is a participation thing.

If you don't, yourself, enjoy participating in debates or think that debates are silly or useless, I find that to be a perfectly acceptable opinion, though one I disagree greatly with. I would just appreciate the ability to be left alone to engage in these debates without someone trying to make me out to be some sort of attention whore with a stick up their ass. I don't even AGREE with some of the things I'VE been arguing, but the point of a debate is to learn the viewpoints of others, not to win a silly internet argument.

I do not generally have debates on NeoGAF because it is rare to find someone in this forum who is willing to engage in such discussions seriously. Usually, a bunch of new posters pop in and say they haven't read the thread but here's their (uninformed) opinion anyway. But I've found a couple really excellent opponents with some great points that have illuminated me on viewpoints different than my own. And to those posters, I just want to say thank you and I hope we can talk again.

 

[Monroeski]

Let me get this straight. You make pronouncements on the character of another poster based on a thread you admitted you haven't read and can't understand?

Anybody who knows me - and apparently, you all know me very well - knows that I like to have long, in depth debates on controversial subjects. It's not an attention thing. I honestly, truly enjoy serious debates. I have had many of them with many different people on many different subjects. In fact, I'm having debates in email right now on atheism and flag burning. This one is about the responsibilities of public figures in how they deal with with fringe opinions and how they share the opinions of those who look up to them. It has, largely, been an excellent debate that I have enjoyed greatly.

I've been talking about my past experiences with Penny Arcade in this thread, something that I do not do often anymore, because it is relevant to the discussion at hand. I have burned an American flag in a very public way and I have not brought it up here because it is irrelevant. However, in debates about flag burning and the freedom of speech, I do draw from my own experiences such as that. When I discuss gay marriage, I bring up people I have known that were gay and their opinions on the matter as they have been shared with me. There are aspects of my life that help shape my opinions on matters and I feel that sharing them as part of a debate is a natural and helpful way of allowing others to understand where I am coming from. It is not an attention thing. It is a participation thing.

If you don't, yourself, enjoy participating in debates or think that debates are silly or useless, I find that to be a perfectly acceptable opinion, though one I disagree greatly with. I would just appreciate the ability to be left alone to engage in these debates without someone trying to make me out to be some sort of attention whore with a stick up their ass. I don't even AGREE with some of the things I'VE been arguing, but the point of a debate is to learn the viewpoints of others, not to win a silly internet argument.

I do not generally have debates on NeoGAF because it is rare to find someone in this forum who is willing to engage in such discussions seriously. Usually, a bunch of new posters pop in and say they haven't read the thread but here's their (uninformed) opinion anyway. But I've found a couple really excellent opponents with some great points that have illuminated me on viewpoints different than my own. And to those posters, I just want to say thank you and I hope we can talk again.

Do you have also have many leather-bound books and an apartment that smells of rich mahogany?

You sound like kind of a big deal.

 

[harriet the spy]

your side is all about censorship. you are telling people to change the way they act and talk to tip toe around your fragile mental state. No one outside of the feminist community knows nor cares about "rape culture" its a code word for your political acolytes that outsiders dont get. You are the equivalent of a cult leader sounding the alarm because someone offended your alien god unknowingly. You cant expect us to know this stuff because we're not crazy.



nono they are all about free speech and an exchange of ideas, not censorship at all !

While I don't necessarily disagree she is not open to other viewpoints, you cannot say that her asking/demanding people not to send her unwanted emails is akin to censorship in any way or shape.

 

[DrEvil]

Let me get this straight. You make pronouncements on the character of another poster based on a thread you admitted you haven't read and can't understand?

Anybody who knows me - and apparently, you all know me very well - knows that I like to have long, in depth debates on controversial subjects. It's not an attention thing. I honestly, truly enjoy serious debates. I have had many of them with many different people on many different subjects. In fact, I'm having debates in email right now on atheism and flag burning. This one is about the responsibilities of public figures in how they deal with with fringe opinions and how they share the opinions of those who look up to them. It has, largely, been an excellent debate that I have enjoyed greatly.

I've been talking about my past experiences with Penny Arcade in this thread, something that I do not do often anymore, because it is relevant to the discussion at hand. I have burned an American flag in a very public way and I have not brought it up here because it is irrelevant. However, in debates about flag burning and the freedom of speech, I do draw from my own experiences such as that. When I discuss gay marriage, I bring up people I have known that were gay and their opinions on the matter as they have been shared with me. There are aspects of my life that help shape my opinions on matters and I feel that sharing them as part of a debate is a natural and helpful way of allowing others to understand where I am coming from. It is not an attention thing. It is a participation thing.

If you don't, yourself, enjoy participating in debates or think that debates are silly or useless, I find that to be a perfectly acceptable opinion, though one I disagree greatly with. I would just appreciate the ability to be left alone to engage in these debates without someone trying to make me out to be some sort of attention whore with a stick up their ass. I don't even AGREE with some of the things I'VE been arguing, but the point of a debate is to learn the viewpoints of others, not to win a silly internet argument.

I do not generally have debates on NeoGAF because it is rare to find someone in this forum who is willing to engage in such discussions seriously. Usually, a bunch of new posters pop in and say they haven't read the thread but here's their (uninformed) opinion anyway. But I've found a couple really excellent opponents with some great points that have illuminated me on viewpoints different than my own. And to those posters, I just want to say thank you and I hope we can talk again.

Holy crap you have issues. I make a one sentence observation on your obvious cries for attention, and I get a short essay that I'm certainly not going to be bothered to read.

Get off your high horse and get a life instead of making meaningless debates on an online forum that you seem to love oh so much. Haven't you noticed that a vast majority of people don't want to speak to / at you any further? I don't care if you have debates via email about flag burning. I'm not American. If someone wants to burn a flag, that's their right. If someone wants to piss on a dollar bill, does that mean they hate whatever president is on that bill? Maybe. Who cares?

You can reply to me all you want, but know that I'm not even going to dignify your rampant attentionwhorism with a response from this point forward.

 

[stupei]

Interesting how any dissenting opinion/comment to the Shakesville piece was modded away. Then the author gets upset when people email her asking why they were modded away. She writes...



Hilarious considering her email is in a very public place (the very top right) and even has a pop up asking which email app you would like to us.

So, she puts her email right on the top of her website, then says that if you email her, its disrespecting her boundaries. It's pretty clear and this group just wants to pat itself on the back and not want to hear any differing opinions.

Then again, we're saying PA should have just done the same, so whatever.

If you're banned from GAF for calling something super gay or making fun of female drivers -- whether or not you think that gay is a completely innocent word and that women really do drive badly -- and you wanted to email EviLore about how wrong and unfair his policies are, how well do you think that would go over?

Anonymity online has given people this idea that they can apply their right to free speech to all spaces when in fact many online spaces are restricted by the rules of the people in charge. It's her space and she can police it however she wants. It's not a difficult concept really and emailing her to bitch about how wrong headed she is in her approach to discussion won't get you very far.

Holy crap you have issues. I make a one sentence observation on your obvious cries for attention, and I get a short essay that I'm certainly not going to be bothered to read.

Get off your high horse and get a life you self entitled idiot.

You do know that tl;dr is bannable, right? Not trying to backseat mod, just don't understand why you would admit to jumping into a thread without reading it and then act outraged when someone tries to engage with you. If you don't intend to read anything in a thread, you probably shouldn't post in it.

 

[DrEvil]

If you're banned from GAF for calling something super gay or making fun of female drivers -- whether or not you think that gay is a completely innocent word and that women really do drive badly -- and you wanted to email EviLore about how wrong and unfair his policies are, how well do you think that would go over?

Anonymity online has given people this idea that they can apply their right to free speech to all spaces when in fact many online spaces are restricted by the rules of the people in charge. It's her space and she can police it however she wants. It's not a difficult concept really and emailing her to bitch about how wrong headed she is in her approach to discussion won't get you very far.



You do know that tl;dr is bannable, right? Not trying to backseat mod, just don't understand why you would admit to jumping into a thread without reading it and then act outraged when someone tries to engage with you. If you don't intend to read anything in a thread, you probably shouldn't post in it.

You do realize that I earlier stated I tried to make sense of the 14 pages of this thread, right? I choose not to justify his lengthy response to an indirect observation because I'm not going to feed into his delusion of grandeur.

That's not a tl;dr.. it's me ignoring his ass.

 

[Nickiepoo]

So she gets critical emails and then makes a public post about how she objects to said emails.

...isn't that what Gabe did?

Now, I don't agree that he should have done it but this woman, in the singular, is an extremist with a 'my way or the highway' mentality.

As long as she and Gabe both have their fingers stuck in their ears they're never even going to be able to agree to disagree because they're both completely right as far as they're concerned.

Kinda sad.

 

[stupei]

You do realize that I earlier stated I tried to make sense of the 14 pages of this thread, right? I choose not to justify his lengthy response to an indirect observation because I'm not going to feed into his delusion of grandeur.

That's not a tl;dr.. it's me ignoring his ass.

Fair enough, but I really wouldn't say singling him out in the first place was the best approach to deflating any ego problems.

So she gets critical emails and then makes a public post about how she objects to said emails.

...isn't that what Gabe did?

Now, I don't agree that he should have done it but this woman, in the singular, is an extremist with a 'my way or the highway' mentality.

As long as she and Gabe both have their fingers stuck in their ears they're never even going to be able to agree to disagree because they're both completely right as far as they're concirned.

Kinda sad.

No. It's not.

She said she doesn't engage with a specific type of discussion, so don't bother trying to make her. Many sexual assault survivors have reached the point in their lives where they no longer feel it's their job or worth their time to educate people about the realities of rape and they don't want to deal with the emotional baggage of having someone tell them (yet again) that their experience of trauma is wrong. If that's how she wants to define her space, fine. If Gabe had simply said, "We don't respond to critics," that would have been one thing. They went in the opposite direction.

Gabe said that those who objected to the comic were reacting wrong, mocked triggers, and then made money off a product designed specifically to antagonize the people he claimed he had no interest in listening to. He decided to bring his campaign against people having the right to criticize his work -- since, yes, all most people did was criticize, not call for a ban or censorship -- to the PAX floor as well as twitter and never said a word when his words were retweeted by the likes of "teamrape."

So no, it's not the same thing. It's the opposite of the same thing.

 

[DrEvil]

Fair enough, but I really wouldn't say singling him out in the first place was the best approach to deflating any ego problems.

In hindsight, I agree. But this Penny Arcade situation (which I very clearly understand), has made this thread down spiral into a hot mess (which is why it gives me a headache). Largely due in part to posters like Sqorger...


For the record: I was not, and never have been, offended by a Penny Arcade comic. I also don't give two shits about how they've been handling the situation. They run a business, they also have to deal with the 'general internet public'. There are idiots out there. And as a result of their chosen profession, they can't please everyone.

The twitter replies, the 'apology' comic, all that, to me, had a comedic albeit sarcastic sincerity to it. I know they're not serious about advocating rape, but this is nothing new.

I understand the outcry of certain individuals, but it's gone much too far, especially when the situation itself is plainly rooted in comedy and was never supposed to be serious in the first place.