• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Perfect Dark’s Game Director leaves The Initiative

Status
Not open for further replies.
I can't read 19 pages but have people been defending the production issues on the fact that it's a small development team?

Why did MS allow a small team to deal with a big AAA game to start with???

It was a brand new AAA studio being built at the exact same time as they were looking into deciding what their first project would be. So there was never a case where we were dealing with a finished studio that was immediately ready to build AAA games back in 2018 when they were announced. They were still relatively brand new. This is what they were created to do back in 2018, AAA games.


The foundation we have in place for The Initiative is unique in many ways. We’ve been given the freedom to explore, try new things and operate like an independent studio, with the backing from one of the biggest companies in the world to do something bold and different. The industry is headed in an exciting direction, and we see an opportunity to create amazing new game experiences of the future.

Our immediate focus is expanding our team to bring that vision to life, and we are incredibly excited for what the future holds for The Initiative.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Damn why is this thread so huge? Could be good news or could be bad. Just wait to see it

It's negative news about a first party, that's why it's so big.

Yep, makes total sense. Giving Phil a new title of "CEO of MS Gaming"? Since he managed Rare so well. It's a legit question.

It's going to be so interesting to see where this has all landed in five years.

You have to imagine with Phil taking a more overseer role, they will assign more talented people into leadership roles to manage the studios individually while Phil is overseeing them broadly.
 
Last edited:

TLZ

Banned
Where in the heck did you come up with that conclusion? You pulled that out of your ass. Frankly this entire post is so absurd I'm not even sure how to address it. I think you entirely missed the point in regards to MS and Starfield and the comparisons. Like entirely.

Anyway ...

So does anyone objectively reading this thread find it odd that you have one group of people saying ...

"Lots of all star talent leaving. More than half the team. Sounds like there could be trouble in this game's development. Wonder what's actually happening?"

And then the other half saying ...

"No! This is fantastic. All of the ego driven people are now out, and Crystal Dynamics, the best game studio to ever exist, that Microsoft should also purchase, is perfect for making this game. We are now going to get a better game than ever, and sooner! Anyone who says otherwise is a console warrior fanboy."

I. mean that's how it feels to me. I'm sitting here, Xbox controller in hand, thinking "wtf just happened here." The insistence from the core dedicated here to not allow a single negative interpretation of anything related to Xbox is beyond anything I've personally seen on a forum before and it's mind boggling. Might be time to consider another short break from the ol' GAF.

Edit: Like clockwork, got the "laugh" response from Riky. You just keep doing your thing man.

Just for the record, I don't block anyone, I don't ever report posts, and I don't ever use the "laugh" emoji to indicate laughing at a post. I only use it when one of our fine fellow NeoGAFers makes a great joke. If clowns want to engage like that, be my guest, but the way to actually man up and have a discussion is to just respond with reason and data. And like I've always said, if you like something (like Xbox for example) you should actually hold it to a standard, not defend everything the group does.
You're a good, reasonable person. Don't leave.
 
Yo! I never thought of it like this, but you're right. They got Halo mostly right and Forza Horizon was awesome. But it's the same cadence for 10 straight years now. It makes total sense as to why they spent $75 Billion on Bethesda, Zenimax, Activision, and Blizzard.

They've done some great stuff with 3P devs too: the Ori games, Cuphead, and Flight Simulator specifically. Issue is they basically didn't seem to know what to do with those IP going forward so they've ever become disassociated with the Xbox brand (Cuphead, Ori to a lesser extent) or the original devs are no longer interested in working with them on the IP (Moon with the Ori series).

IP retention is just as important as getting quality IP in the first place.

Games have stagnated. Devs have stopped innovating. That isnt on Microsoft, Sony or Ubisoft. It's the devs. They need a kick up the ass, not nurturing.

There's so much wrong in this take, like sooo much (the comment in general, I just truncated most of it). You can feel what you want but just because a lot of games are crossgen doesn't mean new games AREN'T being released! What you want to say is that there's little current-gen only games from 3P and the Big Three. Fair enough.

But you're ignoring the fact a large reason for that is because of the very real console shortages for Series X and especially PS5, which are resulting from chip and wafer shortages and now certain logistics issues due to the Russia/Ukraine conflict. You can't just complain about a situation without acknowledging why that situation exists the way it does.

I'd also suggest you step back and realize a game doesn't need to be AAA to be quality, and not all AAA games need to follow the exact same template to be considered good. You can think Metroid Dread is overrated (out of the 2.5D action-platformer releases that have been released or shown so far I thought Replaced looked more impressive, but that game could be stuck in dev limbo infinitely), but it being 2.5D doesn't make it a "lesser" game than a 3D open-world. Just because 2.5D games might share design lineage with side-scrollers from the '90s doesn't mean they're worth being suggestively labeled in a way that implies they're "lesser"; some of those side-scrollers are still among the best games ever made.

It sounds like you think games have stagnated out of laziness and lack of creative inspiration, when that isn't actually the case for the majority. Maybe some developers in AAA, sure, but not all of them. You can't just have that opinion and not take into consideration residual complications from adjusting around COVID, logistics issues from a developing conflict, and most importantly the lack of systems due to chip & wafer shortages affecting everyone across the industry.
Whoever owns the publishing rights of the game has the final say on which platforms it goes to, Phil was able to make a deal here with Todd to make it an Xbox console exclusive & got him bring it to XGP day one in return for the acquisition & full support of MS.

If you want an example of this in practice, just look at Bethesda TBH; the recent Skyrim release was not put in GamePass Day 1 (and to my knowledge, still isn't there). Special Edition is in GamePass and you can upgrade to Anniversary Edition for a fee, but Anniversary Edition still brings new content and features not in Special Edition.

If Zenimax/Bethesda were under XGS, that game would've gone into GamePass (or at least, it's additions) Day 1 for no added cost. But it didn't, because it's just as you said: they are treated as their own label under Microsoft Gaming, which Phil Spencer now runs. Phil said that all Xbox Game Studios games would be going to GamePass Day and Date, but that doesn't seem to extend to Zenimax/Bethesda nor will extend to ABK games if/when they are acquired, since they retain their own publishing labels managed under Microsoft Gaming separate from XGS.

Because of that I'm actually NOT expecting new COD games to go into GamePass Day 1, outside of probably the next Warzone (which is F2P anyway so Day 1 in GP wouldn't matter). I DO expect certain skins, weapons, maps etc. to come alongside GP subscriptions at no additional cost, whereas you'll need to pay for them on other platforms like PlayStation, but otherwise I don't see any business sense for them to put new mainline, standalone COD campaigns into GamePass Day 1 when those tend to sell ridiculously well on every platform with the current model, and possible GamePass subscription number growth wouldn't be enough to offset adding those new campaigns to GP Day 1, to make it worth doing.

At least, that's my read on their strategy WRT Zenimax and ABK content going forward; it'll most likely be a case-by-case (likely limited to new IP) as for which of their non-F2P games go into GamePass Day 1. Meanwhile, all XGS games will go into GamePass Day 1.

Did you just skip over the part where Todd Howard and Pete Hines apologized to Playstation fans that they are sorry that their games are no longer going to Playstation for the big releases? Likely only specific MMO type stuff will ever see Playstation release again.

That doesn't invalidate 3liteDragon's statement of not all Zenimax or ABK games going into GamePass, though. It's entirely possible Bethesda could make TES6 exclusive to Xbox/PC, but not put it in GamePass Day 1. That decision falls into Pete Hine's hands, as he's managing that label.

Meanwhile, Matt Booty manages the XGS studios and those studios are the only ones that have official statements of all of their output going to GamePass Day 1.

Phil Spencer made it clear. The deal was about bringing exclusives games to platforms where Game Pass exists. I don't see Playstation getting Game Pass anytime soon.

Exactly, 100% correct here. But again, this doesn't, nor did that roundtable, prove anything indicative of ALL of Zenimax (and by extension, ABK)'s games going into GamePass Day 1.

Because we already have examples of this happening with Skyrim: Anniversary Edition and Doom 3 VR Edition.
 
Last edited:

Pedro Motta

Member
I think most people will wait to see the actual game, if it releases Fall 2024 and is a 90+ game then obviously some good calls were made, if its 2026 and works out a 60% MC then the process can be pulled apart.
Since we haven't seen a single gameplay screenshot it's far to early to pass judgement.
But but, Starfield is GOTY!

Sorry, had to do it.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
But you're ignoring the fact a large reason for that is because of the very real console shortages for Series X and especially PS5, which are resulting from chip and wafer shortages and now certain logistics issues due to the Russia/Ukraine conflict. You can't just complain about a situation without acknowledging why that situation exists the way it does.

I'd also suggest you step back and realize a game doesn't need to be AAA to be quality, and not all AAA games need to follow the exact same template to be considered good. You can think Metroid Dread is overrated (out of the 2.5D action-platformer releases that have been released or shown so far I thought Replaced looked more impressive, but that game could be stuck in dev limbo infinitely), but it being 2.5D doesn't make it a "lesser" game than a 3D open-world. Just because 2.5D games might share design lineage with side-scrollers from the '90s doesn't mean they're worth being suggestively labeled in a way that implies they're "lesser"; some of those side-scrollers are still among the best games ever made.

It sounds like you think games have stagnated out of laziness and lack of creative inspiration, when that isn't actually the case for the majority. Maybe some developers in AAA, sure, but not all of them. You can't just have that opinion and not take into consideration residual complications from adjusting around COVID, logistics issues from a developing conflict, and most importantly the lack of systems due to chip & wafer shortages affecting everyone across the industry.
I am sick and fucking tired of people blaming lack of innovation and cross gen releases on covid. These decisions were made years before covid was a thing. Please stop falling for these excuses. Now we are bringing up the Ukraine Russia war? 2001 is the greatest year in video game history. GTA3, MGS2, DMC, Halo, FFX. No one phoned in that year and blamed it all on 9/11.

I dont care how good or bad a 2D Metroid is. I am talking about the fact that Nintendo has been unable to produce an AAA Metroid game in 14 years. An AAA Mario game in 5 years. Zelda BOTW2 has taken 5 years and will likely end up getting delayed another year. 2D games dont take as long. They should not be part of this discussion. It's unfair to Naughty Dog, Initiative and every other AAA studio who are spending far more time and resources on 3D games.

I have enjoyed plenty of games these last few years. If Horizon FW had released 50 days earlier, it wouldve been my GOTY. That's not the point. The point is that the game took 5 years to make and feels iterative at best. If the games are taking half a decade to make then they need to feel different. Play different. Offer next gen upgrades like destruction, physics, interactivity, A.I simulations that make them feel different. We have been playing games with the same blueprint that were defined in 2005 at the start of the PS360 gen. Halo Infinite and Elden Rings both very well reviewed, but how much different do they really feel compared to Demon Souls and Halo 3? They are open world now. Great. That's not enough. Not for me.

I wish Starfield and Avatar the best of luck. I admire them for targeting next gen way back in 2017 just like 343i, Polyphony Digital, and Guerrila Games should have. It is depressing to see third party developers who have ZERO incentive to sell next gen consoles value creativity more than first party, but I am glad someone was thinking ahead. Hope they succeed and are rewarded with GOTY awards and big sales.
 
Last edited:
I am sick and fucking tired of people blaming lack of innovation and cross gen releases on covid. These decisions were made years before covid was a thing. Please stop falling for these excuses. Now we are bringing up the Ukraine Russia war? 2001 is the greatest year in video game history. GTA3, MGS2, DMC, Halo, FFX. No one phoned in that year and blamed it all on 9/11.

Well first of all, saying 2001 is the best year in gaming is subjective. Secondly, the main reason for crossgen are due to console shortages from the chip & wafer issues, with demand far outstripping supply. COVID and the Ukraine/Russia conflict have added on top of that, but they aren't the main reasons. 9/11 isn't a good comparison because that was a single event in a very short window of time (relatively speaking) and the main things impacted were lives of those who died from the impacts (and complications from those), two buildings and some gold reserves.

Chip and wafer supplies weren't impacted, fabs weren't impacted, distribution channels & networks weren't impacted and workplace stability (in the gaming space, anyway) wasn't impacted. Bad comparison.

I dont care how good or bad a 2D Metroid is. I am talking about the fact that Nintendo has been unable to produce an AAA Metroid game in 14 years. An AAA Mario game in 5 years. Zelda BOTW2 has taken 5 years and will likely end up getting delayed another year. 2D games dont take as long. They should not be part of this discussion. It's unfair to Naughty Dog, Initiative and every other AAA studio who are spending far more time and resources on 3D games.

Look I have my own issues with some of Nintendo's games and I do think they get a pass for things visually that other companies would get dragged through the mud for and it isn't fair. I love seeing that stuff called out when it comes to Nintendo TBH.

However, a game's stature in terms of budget doesn't really determine its quality. Otherwise Cyberpunk would've been game of the generation and Halo Infinite wouldn't be facing anywhere near the level of complaints from core fans that it is. There are many AAA games better than most indies, and there are some indies better than many AAA games. It is what it is.

I have enjoyed plenty of games these last few years. If Horizon FW had released 50 days earlier, it wouldve been my GOTY. That's not the point. The point is that the game took 5 years to make and feels iterative at best. If the games are taking half a decade to make then they need to feel different. Play different. Offer next gen upgrades like destruction, physics, interactivity, A.I simulations that make them feel different. We have been playing games with the same blueprint that were defined in 2005 at the start of the PS360 gen. Halo Infinite and Elden Rings both very well reviewed, but how much different do they really feel compared to Demon Souls and Halo 3? They are open world now. Great. That's not enough. Not for me.

Understandable sentiment; if you didn't basically say that games need to be current-gen only in order to have these advancements I'd agree, although even I would be torn on that. Reason why is because we actually did have some games in the past that did the things you're asking for, remember the Red Faction series? Lords of Mordor with its Nemesis system is another, and that was on hardware way weaker than PS5, Series X and even Series S.

The reality is that hardware power isn't in itself the issue and won't be the biggest motivator for seeing more of that type of stuff, though that doesn't mean devs are being "lazy", either. It's really down to economics; more and more of the mainstream market have asked for better graphics and production values chiefly, so that's what a lot of devs have prioritized, and to help manage budgets they've basically iterated on proven systems and mechanics while polishing them.

If more gamers are now demanding the things you're asking for, how many of them do you realistically expect to stay as invested in the hobby as they are if AAA games give them that, but scale back the graphics and fidelity, animations and overall production value and theatrics? Not many, I would say. See, most gamers would actually want both, and that costs money. A LOT of money. It might also need a new baseline, but the issue again comes back to the console shortages, and those are due to the chip and wafer shortages.

So once you start to think of it that way, it's easier to understand WHY we might not be getting as many AAA games doing quite the level of stuff you are looking for, at least not yet, and not across the wider spectrum of the AAA market.

I wish Starfield and Avatar the best of luck. I admire them for targeting next gen way back in 2017 just like 343i, Polyphony Digital, and Guerrila Games should have. It is depressing to see third party developers who have ZERO incentive to sell next gen consoles value creativity more than first party, but I am glad someone was thinking ahead. Hope they succeed and are rewarded with GOTY awards and big sales.

But now we're back at conflation; simply having a presence of more powerful consoles doesn't suddenly mean you're going to get more creative games! Does it help? Sure! But it's in no way a guarantee. Also if you look at the last few generations, many of the generation-defining games, the ones that helped moved elements of game design forward, came out starting closer to the midway point of those generations (or those consoles, depending on their release timing). There are only a few consoles where this is the exception IMO, such as the N64 and the Dreamcast, but otherwise I think it holds true.

So in reality, we're on normal course with this current generation, especially considering it could be a bit longer than the previous two (say, eight years vs. seven). Even aside that, I think there have been a good number of high-quality games released so far even if many are cross-gen, and some of those have some technological features in them bringing subtle innovations that would not have been possible (or possible at the fidelity level of the new systems) without the current-gen systems and technological benefits they bring.

I'm not going to go out of my way to say Starfield or Avatar deserve GOTY awards or massive sales just because they're current-gen only; they still need to actually be well-designed, fun, polished games first and we won't truly know if that's the case until they're in our homes being played on our consoles. Same can be said for pretty much every game, really, although we can assume certain games will likely be high quality going off track records of the developers and their previous works. I want games that earn their merit through high quality to get those GOTY awards, those big sales etc., regardless if they're current-gen exclusives or cross-gen titles.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
If we were updated about every devs hires and fires in real time, we'd think everything was in development hell.
This is true for your regular developer but seniors and leads tend to stick around more often and game directors don't typically leave before the game is printed
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Sony usually buys teams they have a close longterm relationship with, there are exceptions like Bungie
yea, i think the devs have to work very closely with Sony previously and understand how Playstation architecture works, before Sony acquires them, for most of the time except Bungie like you mentioned.
 
Maybe my expectations were kinda weird, but I was thinking maybe The Initiative wanted to make something more "unique" with this project and now with Crystal Dynamics taking a bigger role in the development it might end up being a more "tried and true" approach, but I agree that we will have to wait and see until they show some gameplay and give more details.
 
Lol, people come and go all the time in the gaming industry. The only reason this thread is big is because people want to make it seem bigger than it actually is.

It's this big because it's an Xbox first party, and people want to use it to spell doom for Xbox despite the future of Xbox never being more visibly bright and exciting in its entire history of existing. It's desperation.
 
Where in the heck did you come up with that conclusion? You pulled that out of your ass. Frankly this entire post is so absurd I'm not even sure how to address it. I think you entirely missed the point in regards to MS and Starfield and the comparisons. Like entirely.

Anyway ...

So does anyone objectively reading this thread find it odd that you have one group of people saying ...

"Lots of all star talent leaving. More than half the team. Sounds like there could be trouble in this game's development. Wonder what's actually happening?"

And then the other half saying ...

"No! This is fantastic. All of the ego driven people are now out, and Crystal Dynamics, the best game studio to ever exist, that Microsoft should also purchase, is perfect for making this game. We are now going to get a better game than ever, and sooner! Anyone who says otherwise is a console warrior fanboy."

I mean that's how it feels to me. I'm sitting here, Xbox controller in hand, thinking "wtf just happened here." The insistence from the core dedicated here to not allow a single negative interpretation of anything related to Xbox is beyond anything I've personally seen on a forum before and it's mind boggling. Might be time to consider another short break from the ol' GAF.

Edit: Like clockwork, got the "laugh" response from Riky. You just keep doing your thing man.

Just for the record, I don't block anyone, I don't ever report posts, and I don't ever use the "laugh" emoji to indicate laughing at a post. I only use it when one of our fine fellow NeoGAFers makes a great joke. If clowns want to engage like that, be my guest, but the way to actually man up and have a discussion is to just respond with reason and data. And like I've always said, if you like something (like Xbox for example) you should actually hold it to a standard, not defend everything the group does.

Hardly. Mass Effect was produced by MS for the 360 and they were part of the 'creative process with making the title and working with Bioware as they did for Jade Empire, The game and the IP still went to EA.
Also if it's true that the team size was 50 main staff, that's not even big enough to make a AAA game, never mind the once touted AAAA game.

Let's see what the game is like and actually, Crystal Dynamics is a fine studio too and before you reach for Guardians (I doubt you've actually bought it) it's not a bad game and every studio makes a average game now and again
 

Topher

Gold Member
Let's see what the game is like and actually, Crystal Dynamics is a fine studio too and before you reach for Guardians (I doubt you've actually bought it) it's not a bad game and every studio makes a average game now and again

Perhaps you meant Avengers? If so, I disagree. I have played it and I think it is a bad game. What I will say about Crystal Dynamics is that they were a better studio under Gallagher and so, hopefully, reuniting them will be beneficial to both.
 
Perhaps you meant Avengers? If so, I disagree. I have played it and I think it is a bad game. What I will say about Crystal Dynamics is that they were a better studio under Gallagher and so, hopefully, reuniting them will be beneficial to both.
I doubt you bought it and it's not a bad game at all. It's far from brilliant or amazing, but it's very decent, with a charming lead character.
I also think Rise of Tomb Raider was one of the best games of the last gen. I tend to wish they would focus more on Tomb Raider

It's the double standards that get me mind, Perfect Dark is meant to be in all sorts of hell, while Prime 4 is 'take your time, I can wait'. That's for a game announced way before Perfect Dark and gone through 2 different studios. If Retro weren't good enough at the start, why are they good enough now?
 

Topher

Gold Member
I doubt you bought it and it's not a bad game at all. It's far from brilliant or amazing, but it's very decent, with a charming lead character.
I also think Rise of Tomb Raider was one of the best games of the last gen. I tend to wish they would focus more on Tomb Raider

It's the double standards that get me mind, Perfect Dark is meant to be in all sorts of hell, while Prime 4 is 'take your time, I can wait'. That's for a game announced way before Perfect Dark and gone through 2 different studios. If Retro weren't good enough at the start, why are they good enough now?

Yes, I bought the game and played it. We can disagree on how good/bad it was. I too loved Rise of the Tomb Raider. One of the reasons I was excited about Perfect Dark was Gallagher leading the game's reboot like he did with Tomb Raider at CD.

I haven't followed Prime 4's development so no comment on that.
 
Last edited:

Banjo64

cumsessed
Damn why is this thread so huge? Could be good news or could be bad. Just wait to see it

It's this big because it's an Xbox first party, and people want to use it to spell doom for Xbox despite the future of Xbox never being more visibly bright and exciting in its entire history of existing. It's desperation.
I’m glad it’s triggered some discussion, I can’t see anyone who’s posted in bad faith.
 
Yes, I bought the game and played it. We can disagree on how good/bad it was. I too loved Rise of the Tomb Raider. One of the reasons I was excited about Perfect Dark was Gallagher leading the game's reboot like he did with Tomb Raider at CD.

I haven't followed Prime 4's development so no comment on that.
Maybe Gallagher's work was finished and now it's just simply a matter putting in the design and pre-production work on the console. Marvel Avengers wasn't that bad in a poor broken game like Sonic 06, it just wasn't the AAA game we all were hoping for.
I'll wait until Xbox shows off Perfect Dark before worrying if the game is in trouble. I doubt it can be any worse than Perfect Dark on the 360
 

Interfectum

Member

"I was told from sources I can't mention, trusted sources I should add, that basically there was a big disagreement over how to proceed with Perfect Dark. The way The Initiative was set up was almost in a unique sort of studio format, I don't want to say flat structure, but they did build it to try and explore a different way of making a game studio. Anti-crunch, which is great, and a more sort of democratic development process structure.

Like I said days ago:
You can't hire all-star talent in a brand new studio and then put only a couple people in charge. It will implode. MS should know this. They are attempting to create their own Valve or whatever in-house and it doesn't happen this fast.
 

Interfectum

Member
Seems like you were right. But what did you mean? Don't all dev companies only have a few people in charge?
Yeah. Just seemed to me MS was trying to fill The Initiative with all-stars who would, of course, all want their voices heard. Then, surprise, surprise, there was internal disagreement and the studio head made a decision and half the team left. lol

Valve happened organically over the course of decades, you don't just create a studio like that out of thin air.
 
Valve happened organically over the course of decades, you don't just create a studio like that out of thin air.
And Valve is, relatively speaking, an incredibly unproductive company, almost comically so. You can't run a business like a commune, especially when you want to build something very complex like a big game. You need one visionairy who rules with an iron fist and employees who are on board with his vision.
 

Three

Member
It was a brand new AAA studio being built at the exact same time as they were looking into deciding what their first project would be. So there was never a case where we were dealing with a finished studio that was immediately ready to build AAA games back in 2018 when they were announced.
Only a AAA studio? Weren't they ready for AAAA?

The MS company line was that this studio is AAAA while things like Crackdown 3 are AAA. So that they can say they provide AAA games per quarter or something.

Jeff Grub used the company line too

"Microsoft also describes The Initiative as its “AAAA” studio."


We'll see what they produce but the director leaving tells us very little.
 
Last edited:

Interfectum

Member
And Valve is, relatively speaking, an incredibly unproductive company, almost comically so. You can't run a business like a commune, especially when you want to build something very complex like a big game. You need one visionairy who rules with an iron fist and employees who are on board with his vision.
I agree that you need a visionary and trying to create a Valve-like studio is doomed to fail. I disagree with you about Valve though. They are productive, just not producing what people want (ie sequels to Valve games). I like that Valve exists and are crazy enough to make shit like the Steam Controller and Steam Deck.
 

Zeroing

Banned
Only a AAA studio? Weren't they ready for AAAA?

The MS company line was that this studio is AAAA while things like Crackdown 3 are AAA. So that they can say they provide AAA games per quarter or something.

Jeff Grub used the company line too

"Microsoft also describes The Initiative as its “AAAA” studio."


We'll see what they produce but the director leaving tells us very little.
Ohhh so I wasn't mistaken... MS did called it an AAAA studio... yeah MS and the usual PR overflow.
 

kuncol02

Banned
I agree that you need a visionary and trying to create a Valve-like studio is doomed to fail. I disagree with you about Valve though. They are productive, just not producing what people want (ie sequels to Valve games). I like that Valve exists and are crazy enough to make shit like the Steam Controller and Steam Deck.
I don't agree. They produce what people want. They don't produce what people think they want (games). Their product is whole Steam ecosystem.
 

Lognor

Banned
Perhaps you meant Avengers? If so, I disagree. I have played it and I think it is a bad game. What I will say about Crystal Dynamics is that they were a better studio under Gallagher and so, hopefully, reuniting them will be beneficial to both.
Avengers is a bad game because of Square, not Crystal Dynamics. Square forced it to be a gaas and that's why it turned out the way it did. If it was closer to what Guardians was it would have been a much better game. CD is extremely talented so I'm still confident in Perfect Dark turning out well.
 

Interfectum

Member
I don't agree. They produce what people want. They don't produce what people think they want (games). Their product is whole Steam ecosystem.
Yeah I agree with you, probably worded it wrong. They don't produce what Valve-naysayers want or whatever.

Valve has singlehandedly revolutionized PC gaming. People can disagree all they want but even a trillion dollar company and OS platform holder can't beat Valve and tosses their games on there.
 
Last edited:

JTCx

Member
Avengers is a bad game because of Square, not Crystal Dynamics. Square forced it to be a gaas and that's why it turned out the way it did. If it was closer to what Guardians was it would have been a much better game. CD is extremely talented so I'm still confident in Perfect Dark turning out well.
Avengers even without the GaaS still fucking sucks. Janky ass combat, laughable animations, terrible systems, and boring ass campaign. The game is a fucking mess.
 

Hendrick's

If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Avengers is a bad game because of Square, not Crystal Dynamics. Square forced it to be a gaas and that's why it turned out the way it did. If it was closer to what Guardians was it would have been a much better game. CD is extremely talented so I'm still confident in Perfect Dark turning out well.
Square is one of the worst Publishers in existence. They are backward thinking and seem to have a general disdain for the West.
 
Lol, people come and go all the time in the gaming industry. The only reason this thread is big is because people want to make it seem bigger than it actually is.

Can you please tell me any other time in gaming history where half of a studio's core talent abruptly left in the course of a few months, on a game that was still early in development, that needed to pull in a whole other developer (not merely a support studio), which came out perfectly fine?

Okay so we've seen people leave studios all the time, but never at this scale, in such a short time frame. I've tried looking at this from the perspective of The Initiative basically being a Hollywood freelancing script writer, but I shouldn't have to turn to a practice in a completely different industry to make this make sense! It also doesn't help that we've yet to see anything official on the game. No gameplay screenshots, no gameplay footage either.

Something to show to people that the game's in a good state, rather than having secondhand accounts from insiders telling us these things. That's one of the first things you learn in writing class: show, not tell. But all I'm seeing from MS on this is a whole lot of telling, and no showing. Telling me "Oh, it's fine! I heard these same things and only decided to speak up on this once VGC wrote their article, never beforehand, but trust me everything's fine!!" isn't enough.

This stuff stacks on top of the Everwild situation, what's going on with Halo Infinite, etc. It's not something simply in isolation and it's going to raise some questions about how the XGS teams are being managed, it's natural. Believe it or not some of us have good intentions in bringing up the concerns.

It's this big because it's an Xbox first party, and people want to use it to spell doom for Xbox despite the future of Xbox never being more visibly bright and exciting in its entire history of existing. It's desperation.

1: This reasoning isn't true xD

2: As optimistic as I am for Xbox's future, I'm still going to be very critical of what I perceive as ongoing weaknesses. Lack of any VR solution on console, weak marketing for specific games (they seem to have no problem marketing GamePass tho!), poor upper management at certain XGS studios, potentially poor XGS management under Matt Booty, egotistical console power advertising (considering the results between Series X & PS5 with most multiplats so far), lack of 3P AAA exclusives (of high quality, timed or full-on), lack of any real presence in certain genres (fighters especially; the JRPG situation is improving glacially), and lack of good timing with showing more on 1P content outside of E3 and the TGAs.

They may be doing some things right and making some improvements, but there's still a lot of things they could be doing better, that their competition IS doing better, IMHO.
 
Last edited:

Topher

Gold Member
Avengers is a bad game because of Square, not Crystal Dynamics. Square forced it to be a gaas and that's why it turned out the way it did. If it was closer to what Guardians was it would have been a much better game. CD is extremely talented so I'm still confident in Perfect Dark turning out well.

That's fine, but even Tomb Raider took a dip in reception after Gallagher left which is why I think CD is better working with him. Hopefully they can get the same magic they had working on Tomb Raider going with Perfect Dark. I'm cautiously optimistic.
 
Only a AAA studio? Weren't they ready for AAAA?

The MS company line was that this studio is AAAA while things like Crackdown 3 are AAA. So that they can say they provide AAA games per quarter or something.

Jeff Grub used the company line too

"Microsoft also describes The Initiative as its “AAAA” studio."


We'll see what they produce but the director leaving tells us very little.

There's technically no such thing as a AAAA game lol, but I suppose if we're separating AAA titles into tiers then I know of plenty of AAA games that I would classify as being in an entirely different league than your typical AAA.

The whole AAAA stuff appeared in a single job posting and then that's where it took off from. But what they mean is top tier AAA games cause there is no definable AAAA in. If people want to harp on about AAAA, I say they can knock themselves out. I'm just looking forward to what gets made. Perfect Dark is the perfect franchise at the right time to come back. It could be huge if they get it right.
 

Three

Member
There's technically no such thing as a AAAA game lol, but I suppose if we're separating AAA titles into tiers then I know of plenty of AAA games that I would classify as being in an entirely different league than your typical AAA.

The whole AAAA stuff appeared in a single job posting and then that's where it took off from. But what they mean is top tier AAA games cause there is no definable AAAA in. If people want to harp on about AAAA, I say they can knock themselves out. I'm just looking forward to what gets made. Perfect Dark is the perfect franchise at the right time to come back. It could be huge if they get it right.
There's technically no such thing as a AAA studio either but this thing was supposed to be a "higher than top tier" game studio and going back to what you replied to:

I can't read 19 pages but have people been defending the production issues on the fact that it's a small development team?

Why did MS allow a small team to deal with a big AAA game to start with???

The answer is that most of it was just probably empty hype. You can't then now say "well it was never expected to be ready for AAA" when MS were calling it AAAA in 2020.
 
Is perfect dark even AAA? I recall the last one didn't set the world on fire. And that was 2005?! Old glory from N64 doesn't mean shit for non old people.
 
Can you please tell me any other time in gaming history where half of a studio's core talent abruptly left in the course of a few months, on a game that was still early in development, that needed to pull in a whole other developer (not merely a support studio), which came out perfectly fine?

That sounds all well and good if you ignore that The Initiative was a totally brand new studio announced in 2018. They were still in the building phase. They weren't some already established developer with hundreds that suddenly lost half their team one day while making a game. They were barely 50 people for much of the time we were getting updates about their hires, and it barely exceeded 70 people for much of its entire existence.

Better to say they lost about half of the early phase of development creative team before a full development studio was brought onboard. They haven't lost over 200+ game developers, that would constitute about half of the Perfect Dark development team, which including The Initiative now constitutes upwards of 500 employees.
 

Lognor

Banned
That's fine, but even Tomb Raider took a dip in reception after Gallagher left which is why I think CD is better working with him. Hopefully they can get the same magic they had working on Tomb Raider going with Perfect Dark. I'm cautiously optimistic.
I'm not familiar with him, but isn't he at The Iniative now? So what's the problem? I thought Rise of the Tomb Raider was great, which it looks like he was still at CD at that point? And Shadow was lacking, sure. But if he is at The Initiative now shouldn't that give us some optimism?
 

Topher

Gold Member
I'm not familiar with him, but isn't he at The Iniative now? So what's the problem? I thought Rise of the Tomb Raider was great, which it looks like he was still at CD at that point? And Shadow was lacking, sure. But if he is at The Initiative now shouldn't that give us some optimism?

That's exactly what I've been saying.
 
That sounds all well and good if you ignore that The Initiative was a totally brand new studio announced in 2018. They were still in the building phase. They weren't some already established developer with hundreds that suddenly lost half their team one day while making a game. They were barely 50 people for much of the time we were getting updates about their hires, and it barely exceeded 70 people for much of its entire existence.

Which makes losing almost half of their people in a short span of time all the more concerning IMO

Better to say they lost about half of the early phase of development creative team before a full development studio was brought onboard. They haven't lost over 200+ game developers, that would constitute about half of the Perfect Dark development team, which including The Initiative now constitutes upwards of 500 employees.

I get what you're saying, but what you're saying also proves just how far away this game actually is. The 2024 estimates were unrealistic for the game if it's going to be a AAA full product, since the studio (Initiative) wasn't even properly staffed up until sometime in 2020. I'm suspecting the CGI trailer was both a proof of concept and a tool to attract more talent onto the project, and any actual work on the game proper (outside of concepts typed up and maybe some concept art) didn't start until around the time that trailer was being completed (but before it actually premiered at the TGAs).

That's why once this information came out, the game easily went from 2024 to 2026 for me; even 2025 is possibly too aggressive. The only way I see the game coming earlier than 2026, especially if they have a target for 2024, is if it's episodic (like the Hitman games), or they're just going to eschew any major focus on narrative story and make it a live-service GaaS (which I doubt most people looking forward to this game want).

At the very least it still points to this game being shown off way too soon, same with Everwild. And I'll also say, if there's no Avowed gameplay at their June showcase, that game probably isn't coming in 2023. If there's no more gameplay for Hellblade II this year, that isn't coming 2023. If we don't get a deep-dive for RedFall similar to what FH5 got last year, I doubt that is coming this Fall.

So once again I think there's a lot riding on MS with this showcase IMHO, second year in a row. They're going to need more than Starfield IMO in order to show that these XGS games are on track and at least some could be coming in a timely fashion. But hey, that's just me.
 

kingfey

Banned
Which makes losing almost half of their people in a short span of time all the more concerning IMO
This is very normal.
You get all kind of drama, when you open a new studio. These aren't friends. They are people from different fields, all under 1 roof.

Outside of the PR fully news, this studio was doomed to have problems with profiles like that.

The fact that another was studio was brought in, shows how dysfunctional the team is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom