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Persona Community Thread |OT9| SPOILER TAGS OR DIE
- Thread starter Dantis
- Start date
Green Mamba
Member
FES's opening has a funky song but the actual video is pretty blah. Actually, Persona 3's original opening is pretty bad too.
I think the Persona opening that sets up the game to follow the best is still Persona 4's original opening. Golden's was pretty bad and Persona 5's is just too abstract and bizarre (The characters are... skating? What the heck does that have to do with Persona 5?). Persona 4's hits all the important points of what the game is about, is a good showcase of the characters, and visually sells the game's motifs very well.
EDIT: I totally beat the Matador at like level 17 in Nocturne. Only took me like five tries.
I think the Persona opening that sets up the game to follow the best is still Persona 4's original opening. Golden's was pretty bad and Persona 5's is just too abstract and bizarre (The characters are... skating? What the heck does that have to do with Persona 5?). Persona 4's hits all the important points of what the game is about, is a good showcase of the characters, and visually sells the game's motifs very well.
EDIT: I totally beat the Matador at like level 17 in Nocturne. Only took me like five tries.
I'm the opposite
P3's original opening is arthouse nonsense. P3FES's recycling of footage legitimately gives me feels. The build up at the beginning is ace, and the successive clips of P3MC doing daily life stuff gives me chills every time I see it. The new anime cutscenes are totally misplaced though, lol
P3's original opening is arthouse nonsense. P3FES's recycling of footage legitimately gives me feels. The build up at the beginning is ace, and the successive clips of P3MC doing daily life stuff gives me chills every time I see it. The new anime cutscenes are totally misplaced though, lol
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Yeah that's how i feel about FES opening, a great song wasted on a bunch of gameplay clips and out of context cutscenes.
Funyarinpa
Member
I'm saying this totally due to sentimentality but I love Golden's the most. Watched that stuff every time it came up (Golden was my first Persona). I don't deny that artistically it sucks lol.
I really like P3's original though- I really dig the style and Burn My Dread is still unmatched.
I really like P3's original though- I really dig the style and Burn My Dread is still unmatched.
klabautermann
Member
Yeah, I'm not talking about the cinematic, it's not great. But the song is godtier.
the_sun_king
Member
It's a visual metaphor for the whole freedom theme.
The metaphor becomes blatantly obvious once Ann's part begins and you see her dancing in the middle of a bunch of traffic signs.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Still not finished with P5 but I'm already feeling post game depression in advance lol. I hope they have another team hard at work on P6 (the main staff at least moved on to that fantasy game right?) so it'd be ready for late this gen rather than another huge gap. They have the HD monsters ready after all.
eyeball_kid
Member
I feel P5 depression just because I'm still playing and have no one to talk about it with, haha. (most everyone here has finished it, and the OT is a spoiler death zone)
I'm loving it overall, but I've only just started palace 5 and I'm at 120 hours. O_O;
I do not love Mementos though, it feels like a slog every time I go in there.
5's opening is my favorite because Wake Up, Get Up, Get Out There is the best song of the bunch by a pretty big margin imo. The animation is neat too. 4's original opening is my second favorite, though Persona 3's has grown on me enough that I can't quite tell these days which one I prefer tbh. FES is my least favorite.
That sounds good and all, but I think I'll wait for SMT IV-3: Navarre Returns The Silver, where they add in more slice of life scenes and a new character by the name of Maria, who becomes the party's best friend and at the end of the game we find out she was Tokyo's Goddess all along and Nanashi's predestined lover. Asahi is somehow okay with this.
That sounds good and all, but I think I'll wait for SMT IV-3: Navarre Returns The Silver, where they add in more slice of life scenes and a new character by the name of Maria, who becomes the party's best friend and at the end of the game we find out she was Tokyo's Goddess all along and Nanashi's predestined lover. Asahi is somehow okay with this.
klabautermann
Member
Apparently it'll be a few years before we see it. They're hiring for it, but they don't want it to be a thing unless it can surpass P5.
I can't imagine I'll be properly excited for something again until either Re Fantasy or the next Persona game. Maaaaybe Last of Us 2? I dunno.
It gives me time to chill put either way, lol.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Cannon_Fodder
Member
Also, Maria is just Mara with a blond wig.
I love the song and animation for P5's opening the most, but the way they focused so much on the first few characters is weird. I'd say it's still my favourite opening though.
Before P5, the two games I got most hyped about were FFXIII and the original Dissidia. I enjoyed both at the time (especially Dissidia), but looking back they're nothing special. Re:Fantasy has my attention, it could be special for me. Might be the first game I import from Japan and play through in Japanese.
TurnipFritters
Member
I legit expected there to be, like, a second opening that unlocked after you got to a certain point in the game. In retrospect, I wish they hadn't revealed any of the other party members after the first five before the game was released, and hadn't included them in the opening/title screen.
klabautermann
Member
I miss when games used to do this stuff man, Wild Arms was the first series I ever saw do that and it like, blew my mind.
Mediking
Member
I made it to 11/20...
My head is spinning...
Just what the hell is going on here?
I had to put my PS4 controller down for a second...
The game pretty much told me its time to save because something big is about to happen...
So I saved... and went through a few choices...
I gotta figure out what's going on.
Edit: WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!?!
My head is spinning...
Just what the hell is going on here?
I had to put my PS4 controller down for a second...
The game pretty much told me its time to save because something big is about to happen...
So I saved... and went through a few choices...
I gotta figure out what's going on.
Edit: WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!?!
Mediking
Member
Okay so I just made it to the end of 11/20 and the game is acting like it explained everything so well but I got a question... Something just isn't making sense to me. Either explain it without spoiling or just tell me to finish the game to find out...
Just when the hell did Joker get a cognitive fake?! The only time a cognitive double was ever mentioned earlier was Kamoshida's bizarre version of Ann. Thats it! So when did all this congitive fake stuff come from? Joker never had a double to begin with! Am I missing something or is this a plothole?
Haru's dad had a cognitive version of her fiancee, too, remember?
Hell, all people you see in the Metaverse are cognitive versions of other people in some form. Sae's Palace is full of cognitive people gambling, remember? In this case, she just happened to have a cognitive Joker in the interrogation room, because her real-world cognition is that there is an investigation room, and Joker should be in it.
Hell, all people you see in the Metaverse are cognitive versions of other people in some form. Sae's Palace is full of cognitive people gambling, remember? In this case, she just happened to have a cognitive Joker in the interrogation room, because her real-world cognition is that there is an investigation room, and Joker should be in it.
Mediking
Member
Ohhhh.... so..... hmmm.... thanks. Lol I appreciate it. My mind is still doing flips and I'm still kinda confused. Maybe I'm just dumb or something. Lol
TurnipFritters
Member
Sae had never been in that room until she interrogated Joker, so her entire perception of the room is that Joker is inside it. So in the metaverse, her version of that room has Joker inside. The cognitions come up a lot in the game, actually:
Ann in Kamoshida's palace, Madarame's former students as paintings, the bank's walking ATMs, Futaba's mother, and Haru's fiance.
...but yes, it's kind of a stretch in that there's no way the characters should have been able to come up with a plan like that.
Ann in Kamoshida's palace, Madarame's former students as paintings, the bank's walking ATMs, Futaba's mother, and Haru's fiance.
...but yes, it's kind of a stretch in that there's no way the characters should have been able to come up with a plan like that.
Mediking
Member
Lmao I am terrible at grasping stuff...
But when did
real Sae capture Joker? Or was that entire thing Palace stuff aka not real?
I'm struggling with splitting who is exactly who... ;_;
the_sun_king
Member
Joker planned to get caught at the end of the Casino infiltration. But unbeknownst to the real world police & officials, he was placed into the fake interrogation room in the Metaverse.
Edit: TurnipFritters clarified it below.
TurnipFritters
Member
The game is... not super clear on this but:
Joker is arrested in the animated sequence you see at the beginning of the game (and then shown again after you beat Shadow Sae). At the beginning of the palace it indicates that the area outside looks exactly like the real world, and someone says he that the police were led into the Metaverse to arrest him. I'm assuming it was like the hallway stuff so the police were only there for a very short time and didn't realize it.
Yeah, and I can't imagine it'd cost them too much to reuse like 80% of the animation in place and just add/replace/complement a few here and there as you get new party members, or after you get all of them. Then again, that's budget that could be better spent on beach scenes!
Tbf you're not missing much. Discussion in the OT (every time I go there, at least) has devolved into complaining about dungeons or how long the game is. Maybe things are better in the spoiler thread, I dunno.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Yeah it's not exactly a great place to discuss the game. 25% of it is people screaming SPOILERS, 25% of it is complaints about dungeons, game length, dying or some "bullshit" thing, 25% of is people asking for help and 25% of is people attempting discussion. It's probably why I didn't participate in the P5 OT all that much other than helping people out or sharing silly persona builds I put together, I'd rather talk about persona in this OT with you guys.
TheNotoriousAFG
Member
It's okay, I'm still playing Persona 5!!! Just beat the third dungeon and am ~loving it~. Still not too warm on the characters/overall plot yet, but everything else is aces. The gameplay is simply divine, and dem AESTHETICS. Now that I have 2 SP 3 Adhesives, I can finally do dungeons in one day :')
Mediking
Member
THIS is the kind of emotional reaction I want Joker to unleash on the traitor. I want him to drop the cool and calm guy thing and just bring back the pure anger and frustration he had when he activated Arsene.
Edit: Just imagine a guy yelling. Sorry for the Attack on Titan spoilers...
And thanks for all the replies helping me figure out my question earlier about the story ^_^
Edit: Just imagine a guy yelling. Sorry for the Attack on Titan spoilers...
And thanks for all the replies helping me figure out my question earlier about the story ^_^
A Dead Diehard
Member
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
WTF why are we having AoT spoilers here?!
Mediking
Member
Green Mamba
Member
The "Curse" element being something completely different in Persona 5 and Nocturne is throwing me for a loop.
EDIT: Babysitting a doofus who loses his cool at several points in the game would have made P5 unbearable. We already got Ryuji to overreact, spending over a hundred hours with an obnoxious character instead of a silent one would have driven me up the wall. I think P5 has the right idea for the protagonist.
EDIT: Babysitting a doofus who loses his cool at several points in the game would have made P5 unbearable. We already got Ryuji to overreact, spending over a hundred hours with an obnoxious character instead of a silent one would have driven me up the wall. I think P5 has the right idea for the protagonist.
Mediking
Member
It's moreso like... there's sections in Persona 5 where Joker should be saying something with voiced dialogue and the fact that he doesn't is very jarring... Give the man his portraits and voiced dialogue options like everybody else.
I pretty much grin like a fool whenever Joker says anything.
Green Mamba
Member
Persona is a game about making choices--nearly every in game day's activity is down to what choice the player chooses to make. The more you define the protagonist's character the more you have to consider "is this in character for the protagonist to do?" which I think is fundamentally at odds with the game design. Joker is poorly defined enough that literally any decision you make throughout the game is in character for him (save the ones that lead to bad endings, of course). I think Joker is at a good medium for what the series is--he shows enough character through his animations and expressions that he matches the game's established theme and plays off of it with his minimal backstory, but ephemeral enough that everything you the player chooses to do is in character.
No, you do not.
Reanimatoin
Member
Persona 4 Arena looks a little bit different than I remember....
I agree that he's good at letting you expressing yourself and matching the game's themes, but there are 3 distinct issues with Joker that made it clear to me that the typical silent protagonist format was detrimental to the overall experience.
1) Scenes are incredibly dense in Persona 5. They tend to run much longer than they did in 3 or 4, which makes Joker's general silence stick out more than his predecessors. Instances where he should absolutely be talking
such as when Morgana runs away
2) There is no choice. Dialogue prompts in the main story are exceedingly linear (moreso than they've ever been). When a character asks you a question in P5 the following prompt is the most pointless fucking thing ever, since you're presented with 3 variants of "Yes." It's different from how it was done in P4; when Yu was asked a question, you could A) Say the right thing, B) Say the wrong thing C) make some dumb joke. Sure, the end result is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things, but Yu was so good at letting the player consistently express themselves, while Joker is pretty much the same guy. P4 even had stat-locked dialogue prompts that could lead to numerous situations, while P5 outright removes them (barring like one instance?).
3) Yu's characterization in P4 is vague and ambiguous. Joker completely crosses that line. He's quiet in the real world and a flamboyant showoff in the metaverse. There's pretty much no room for interpretation here. In P3/P4, the protagonist's personality is kept vague, and characters rarely call out their relative silence. In Persona 5, well...
Ultimately, you can have a defined protagonist exist in a game about making choices. Catherine did it. Cold Steel does it. RPGs have literally been doing it forever with sidequests, and P5 even conveniently gives Joker a reason for wanting to spend time with people (incentive). In the end, Joker comes across as a character who wants to speak, but can't. Literally. Listen to some of his cut dialogue.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I get the feeling a lot of those cut clips would've been used if Morgana wasn't always cutting in with "OOOOH!! Do you want to do X??"
Yet another problem with a mute character, since that mandates someone else speaking for you, even if it's to you the player.
Oh dear, this hurts my head...
Yet another problem with a mute character, since that mandates someone else speaking for you, even if it's to you the player.
Oh dear, this hurts my head...
Mediking
Member
!!!! I edited it! Sorry you guys.
Thank you!!! Man, I know I keep saying this but hearing Joker actually speak in battles and some scenes is incredibly refreshing.
He also needs his own portraits for dialogue options too. He does have them but they aren't like everybody else. Hopefully this is fixed in Persona 5 Crimson.
Your great speech also explains why it was also really hard for me to see as Minato as moody and reserved like everybody else. I still see him as something different.
Green Mamba
Member
I would argue your first two points, PK, are more issues with the game itself and less with the actual character--P5 stumbles on its own theme more than a couple times, and I think its increased discussion linearity is in direct opposition to its theme of freedom--you, the player, should have more say in what goes on. And in these cases, having the character act more on his own would harm that even further.
On your third point I disagree that there's a strong characterization to Joker at all and there is absolutely plenty of room for interpretation. I'd say the only definite about him (other than being selflessly heroic as all Persona main characters are) is that he has two faces, just as you say, but they're absolutely not strongly defined faces. I think a lot of it is reading into some pretty basic animations, the same direction that P3's typical "lonely emo kid" interpretation comes from. I didn't see it as actual characterization but simply a reflection of the game's two gameplay faces.
Basically, I saw Joker not as a character but as a simple extension of the game itself, the one that you, the player, have the connection with. And I'm okay with that--speaking protagonists in RPGs tend to be far and away the dullest members of their casts specifically to allow player control to make the most sense, and I'd take a non-character over a dull (or worse, annoying) player character any day, especially in one as long as Persona.
But that's just my viewpoint on the matter.
On your third point I disagree that there's a strong characterization to Joker at all and there is absolutely plenty of room for interpretation. I'd say the only definite about him (other than being selflessly heroic as all Persona main characters are) is that he has two faces, just as you say, but they're absolutely not strongly defined faces. I think a lot of it is reading into some pretty basic animations, the same direction that P3's typical "lonely emo kid" interpretation comes from. I didn't see it as actual characterization but simply a reflection of the game's two gameplay faces.
Basically, I saw Joker not as a character but as a simple extension of the game itself, the one that you, the player, have the connection with. And I'm okay with that--speaking protagonists in RPGs tend to be far and away the dullest members of their casts specifically to allow player control to make the most sense, and I'd take a non-character over a dull (or worse, annoying) player character any day, especially in one as long as Persona.
But that's just my viewpoint on the matter.
Mediking
Member
I love Morgana. Easily one of my favorite characters. Voice acting is top notch too. Deserves an award.
But....
Atlus can never push the "you're too tired!" mechanic on a character ever again. Its a necessary mechanic but there has to be a better way than forcing Morgana to say it everytime.
I think it's a bit of both, honestly. A complete lack of brevity and an illusion of choice are issues that the game suffers, but sticking with the old style further compounded on them. I didn't mind not having complete control in a focused story like Persona 5, but they had to compensate me for it. I wanted to play as the mischievous Phantom Thief, not another cipher. As an extension of the game itself, he's pretty lacking in some areas. Which is a shame, since he seemed promising.
You can't tell me a character like that, one who's brimming with personality works as effective cipher. They should have gone for a Nathan Drake/Lara Croft type of protagonist over an incredibly passive one. The game's narrative is incredibly rigid anyway, so an open-ended experience was never in the cards.
I've definitely grown to dislike the "P3 protag is super emo based on dialogue choices" takes as well, but Joker's characterization is literally coded even into his Awakening scene. In P3 and P4, the protagonist's Awakening says nothing about their respective characters (because there is none). They're visceral power fantasies for the player to experience. It's different in P5.
Joker's Awakening is literally is in line with everyone else. It follows the same format (catalyst ---> PAIN ---> contract ----> Awakening) and it informs us on what kind of person he is. Granted "a reckless do gooder who always wants to help out others" is a bit generic (I never said his characterization was strong), but it's somethingcompared to the completely neutral awakenings in P3/P4. Joker walks this awkward line of being a character who can't speak, instead of a proper silent protagonist. Even during his confrontation with
Shido, the man who ruined his life. You're given 1 or 2 dialogue prompts but it's like fuck, that scene would have been so much better if he could actually speak to him.
I just wanted more.
Gonna have to agree with PK here. Joker has such personality that I found it impossible to not see him as his own character. He was definitely not an "extension of the game."
When it comes to this stuff, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either your character is an avatar representing the player (such as in an Elder Scrolls game), or they're an actual character within the story.
When it comes to this stuff, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either your character is an avatar representing the player (such as in an Elder Scrolls game), or they're an actual character within the story.
TurnipFritters
Member
the actual biggest difference between p3/p4 and p5 is that a lot of the descriptive dialogue is in first person rather than second. well, ok, it's split like 50-50 between "joker's thought bubble" and "morgana addressing him" but it's still a big difference!!