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[SlayrUK]

How are people going to download 40-50gb dual layer blu ray games?

Me - on my 1 gb/sec Broadband connection when this shit becomes feasible.

 

[percephone]

It's us that are 'technically' breaking the law, it's just that license agreements of this nature are hard to enforce legally so they are often flaunted, all the publishers are doing is enforcing it themselves by means of DD, they are not taking away consumer rights.

Yes, they are. Stop putting your head in the sand. If we were infringing on their copyrights, EULA or TOS, Gamestop and most pawn shops would have been brought to court as they are reselling alot of "licensed" software products.

The first sale doctrine allow the re-sale of copyrighted works even for computer program with EULA and/or TOS. Want some court case? here and here. I got more if you want more.

 

[Night_Trekker]

It's kind of scary how many people don't fully understand what DD-only means.

Want to play that game you bought years later? You can't, sorry. Wait until your console giant of choice allows you to download and pay for it again. Is that game you love a niche game, the publisher of which went belly-up? Pray someone bought the rights, remembers it and also thinks it's worth releasing again in the online store or no re-play for you!

Going DD-only and getting more of my money to publishers and developers is not worth risking a future like that.

 

[Shambles]

"Moore also said he believes Microsoft will be the first of the three major hardware manufacturers to release an entirely digital-based gaming console, but that movement is still years away."

mhmm. mhmm.

Took 3 pages for you guys, I was starting to think I would have to post this myself.

 

[codecow]

Gaming exec endorses the format that will give them all the control and more profit. Shocker.

Actually EA would benefit most from strong traditional sales as the entire publishing organization is based around it. Not sure if you've tried EA's D2C stuff but I wouldn't say it's industry leading.

 

[Vangu Vegro]

Had to see it to believe it - People honestly believe that DD is more environmentally friendly than physical media? Really? Since when is the power required to keep servers up 24-7 not polluting? Or the power needed to keep your gaming machine on for as long as it takes to download a game? Laying the cables or installing the transmitters necessary for a connection good enough to smoothly download games (in the majority of the world where such connections don't exist yet) can't disturb ecosystems?
And what about physical media now? The box? Recyclable and often made from partly recycled materials. The manuals? The disc itself? Ditto.

DD is a great way to circumvent publishing risks, keep old and obscure games in the picture, and keep the indie scene thriving, and it's been a good thing for the industry too. But DD as the only way to get games? Well, let's just say that I hope I'll never live to see the day when that happens.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Took 3 pages for you guys, I was starting to think I would have to post this myself.

Eh, that's not a console...it's a portable...unless you guys are changing the definition. And if that's the case, plenty of things have beaten Sony to the punch...like the iPhone and others. Besides, Go is just Sony's questionable attempt at keeping a platform that they (and a lot of others) have sunk a ton of money into from sinking under the waves due to piracy and bad decisions.

 

[LCfiner]

Eh, that's not a console...it's a portable...unless you guys are changing the definition. And if that's the case, plenty of things have beaten Sony to the punch...like the iPhone and others. Besides, Go is just Sony's questionable attempt at keeping a platform that they (and a lot of others) have sunk a ton of money into from sinking under the waves due to piracy and bad decisions.

-__________-

it's a gaming device that is DD only coming from a big name player in the gaming world. it is significant.

and, perhaps to its detriment, many of the games on the device are console-like in length and scope.

 

[unomas]

XBL arcade games aren't physical media, do you feel ripped off by purchasing those games? Digital downloads just means less clutter in my living space, and digital downloads of music don't seem to have affected the consumer in any major way. I'm looking forward to our download future, but I do think physical media will hold for a period of time.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

How are people going to download 40-50gb dual layer blu ray games?

Who says they have to be that size when future consoles have hardware far in advance of the current set that allow for even better compression/decompression? What about broadband penetration and average speeds? Are they simply going to stand still when someone decides to have an all-DD console scenario release in around ten or less years considering that broadband penetration and average speeds were almost less than nothing ten years ago? Things change as they have quite dramatically in the last decade.

-__________-

it's a gaming device that is DD only coming from a big name player in the gaming world. it is significant.

and, perhaps to its detriment, many of the games on the device are console-like in length and scope.

Moore also said he believes Microsoft will be the first of the three major hardware manufacturers to release an entirely digital-based gaming console, but that movement is still years away.

Let's look at that quote again.

 

[Flachmatuch]

-__________-

it's a gaming device that is DD only coming from a big name player in the gaming world. it is significant.

and, perhaps to its detriment, many of the games on the device are console-like in length and scope.

It's a bad example not because of the console/handheld thing (that's completely irrelevant imo, looking at how things are going) but because a lot of the games aren't DD-only. The platform itself is both traditional and DD, and a lot (probably the majority) of traditional (non-PSN) game sales will happen in the UMD format. That in addition to the most popular hardware versions (normal PSPs with UMDs) you have a less-featured DD-only version doesn't really mean the platform is DD-only from the pov of developers/publishers.

 

[LCfiner]

Let's look at that quote again.

hmm, alright. the quote is pretty specific.

I think it's interesting that so many people here think a DD only console can't happen ten years from now when there already exists two DD only devices (iPhone and PSP go) plus tons of DD games on PCs and DD games on all major consoles.

10 years is a long time in the tech space. I would be shocked if there wasn't a DD only console in less than 7 years.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Right now I'm looking at a wall of phyiscal CDs that I wish I didn't own.

Nothing is stopping you from selling them. There's still plenty of record and cd stores that buy and sell used.

Music, and Movies both are quickly not having a second hand market. We have all essentially been living with DD television broadcasts for decades.

Music maybe, because of people's love with portable players. That said though music is a difference experience than games, and movies. Plus there's still a HUGE second hand market for movies. You're kidding yourself if you think that's going away. And no Cable TV is completely different than DD. You don't buy particular shows. You're not buying a season of Scrubs on Comedy Central. It is completely different. No where near being close to the same thing we're talking about.

Houses, Cars, Computers, TVs, all do not have such an incredible theft/piracy rate that pretty well justifys the need for a DD model.

New theft is a problem the publishers and developers have to deal wtih, the solution is not a big fuck you to the customers you want to support your goods. DD hasn't stoped the piracy of Music and it won't stop the piracy of games either.

If a new game was priced such that the value was minus what you would have gotten for a resale would people be so upset about this?

There is no equation for this though. If I sold it with in 10 days of buying it I might get 45 - 50 bucks for it, if I sold it 3 years later I might only get 10 bucks for it. Then there's the few games that go up in price even used, so will that be free for me on DD?

I think DD works for some mediums, like music. Though personally I still prefer having a physical media. While I don't buy much music any more, 9 times out of 10 I'll pick buying an actual CD than buying mp3s. The way people enjoy music now adays it makes sense for it. A home video game console it doesn't make sense for.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

10 years is a long time in the tech space. I would be shocked if there wasn't a DD only console in less than 7 years.

Ten years is a FUCKING ETERNITY in technology and video gaming. Console gaming, as we know it, has only been around since the mid 70s...just over three decades. Ten years ago, not many had 56k connections. Almost no one had cell phones. LCDs sucked ass for anything that moved. When this console hits, things will be far more advanced than they are now in important ways...broadband delivery will be one of those...and it's likely that wireless networks will be extremely fast by this time...fast enough that a DD-based console will simply be able to tap into that wireless network as well as improved traditional internet access.

 

[Kccitystar]

I think Disc-based gaming will still exist as long as broadband penetration continues to grow at a slower rate. The only change I would like to see is the speed in which data can go from optical drive to console, which for some weird reason isn't fast enough to eliminate or minimize most of the loading.

DD-based games have yet to really break through the surface when ISPs are putting caps on bandwidth for a lot of users.

If they upgrade their infrastructure to support the amount of bandwidth people would need to download 2-4GB games or what have you, then I can see DD take-off faster than normal.

Until then, it's Disc-based games for me. I like to have a physical copy of stuff that I own other than a download key.

I mean, I don't know, something about having a server or network that keeps all of the games I purchase to download at any given time makes me skeptical. What if that server goes down and data gets lost? Would we have another incident like Danger/T-Mobile? That's a risk I don't want to take no matter how minute the chances are of it happening are.

 

[LutherT17]

10 years is a long time in the tech space. I would be shocked if there wasn't a DD only console in less than 7 years.

What about OnLive and the other streamed services? There's no physical media involved for the consumer. Isn't the whole concept of DD missing the point a bit, if its possible to stream our games? Perhaps Mr.Moore should be seeing the idea of "owning" a game as endangered.

 

[tak]

Please don't say those hateful words Peter. The only reason I can play as many games as I can is because stores mark down old games to make room for new ones.

 

[LCfiner]

What about OnLive and the other streamed services? There's no physical media involved for the consumer. Isn't the whole concept of DD missing the point a bit, if its possible to stream our games? Perhaps Mr.Moore should be seeing the idea of "owning" a game as endangered.

well, the difference is that DD works right now and it's a pretty simple extrapolation to see it expand greatly in the next 5 years and become the norm in 10.

streaming like Onlive isn't out yet and I'm super skeptical that it will work well outside of a trade show demo for the next couple years due to issues with broadband speeds.

so, yeah, I guess it could become a big thing eventually but I don't see it starting to gain steam for a while yet.

maybe in 15 years

 

[LizardKing]

Gaming will not go DD only in the foreseeable future. And really I can't see how anybody would really want it.

Pros:
Don't have to go to store/wait for delivery
Don't have to load game into device
Don't have games sitting around/cluttering up the house

Cons:
-Games will be selectively available (if publishers go belly up etc)
-Can't resell
-Can't lend/borrow
-Limited to broadband internet access
-How many hard drives are you going to own with 20GB+ games. Sure they're gonna want you to buy their 1TB HD, to hold maybe 40 games. So they're gonna make you pay more and you will be getting less.
-Pretty much forget about playing a game from 10+ years ago if you didn't buy it initially (or maybe even if you did dunno how they'd drm it)
-No competition in retail. No more toys r us 2 for 1, deals, trade ins etc. One entity determines the price.

Sure maybe it sounds appealing if you want someone else to have complete control over YOUR games that you bought and paid for. Or restrictions in games you want to buy. All this so you don't have to go to the store/store a few games? Why?

 

[RurouniZel]

Oh, music industry comparers... how quickly you forget.

Music downloaded to a computer can be backed up to a physical medium like a CD/DVD-R. What these people are describing offers no such ability.

Failed analogy fails.

 

[LizardKing]

Oh, music industry comparers... how quickly you forget.

Music downloaded to a computer can be backed up to a physical medium like a DVD-R. What these people are describing offers no such ability.

Failed analogy fails.

this too. nullifies song comparison

 

[Version 3.0]

I'll be willing to go DD only when publishers admit that I own what I buy, and have a system in place for people to sell or trade their digital games--in effect, an online "Gamestop" that they run (and profit from). I actually don't sell my games, but I'm not giving up my rights.

So, pretty much never. If the day comes when I have to choose DD or nothing, I'll pick a parrot on my shoulder with no regrets.

But I'm not worried about that future. People who expect physical retail to die are ignorant. So long as there are physical goods to sell, stores will also sell physical versions of digital content. Even downloadable music, as universally accepted as it seems to be, is still, in fact, smaller than the CD market. Any publisher who ignores physical stores is making a choice to become a niche player.

 

[semiconscious]

It's kind of scary how many people don't fully understand what DD-only means.

Want to play that game you bought years later? You can't, sorry. Wait until your console giant of choice allows you to download and pay for it again. Is that game you love a niche game, the publisher of which went belly-up? Pray someone bought the rights, remembers it and also thinks it's worth releasing again in the online store or no re-play for you!

Going DD-only and getting more of my money to publishers and developers is not worth risking a future like that.

yes! if you want a demonstration of people being brainwashed into buying into something which works completely against their own self-interest, the whole dd thing is a case study ...

 

[LCfiner]

Oh, music industry comparers... how quickly you forget.

Music downloaded to a computer can be backed up to a physical medium like a DVD-R. What these people are describing offers no such ability.

Failed analogy fails.

??? how is this an issue?

tie the game to your account, not your hardware. if the hard drive in the console fails, get a new hard drive and re-download everything. ta-da!

plus, a lot of you guys are still talking in terms of 2010 technology. 1 TB hard drives and such. Moore is talking TEN friggin years from now. what was the largest hard drive 10 years ago? what was broadband penetration in the states 10 years ago?

 

[Mandoric]

lol, how are they breaking the law ?, what are they trying to go around ?, all they are doing to protecting their IP.



Uh ? I've already agreed that it is hard to enforce License agreements in a court of law, and please explain to me how they are taking away consumer rights ?, this is not a pair of shoes, IP is veritable mine field of legality's compared to most consumer products on the market as LEGALLY the IP holder owns the IP and is to a certain extent protected by the law, are you saying that I can purchase one copy of Windows 7 and install it on 10 system's using the same Product ID ?, because apparently my licensing agreement doesn't allow that.

It's also illegal to protect the sidewalk in front of my house with claymore mines.

It's not a matter of anti-resale clauses being hard to enforce, it's a matter of there being both settled case law and legislation in at least the US and EU that have said you can't do that for over a century. There have been several successful cases in which a reseller has sued the original manufacturer for costs incurred fighting their failed attempt to block a sale and won.
Creating new copies is certainly forbidden (in most cases) by the law, but in most jurisdictions the right to restrict further sale is not included in copyright and is legally forbidden as anticompetitive in cases of physical goods. There may be a clause in the EULA forbidding it, but there's also a clause in the EULA about it not trumping state or federal law, both of which (except for certain varieties of software in Maryland and Virginia) are unequivocal about a right to resale.

 

[Zachack]

Had to see it to believe it - People honestly believe that DD is more environmentally friendly than physical media? Really? Since when is the power required to keep servers up 24-7 not polluting? Or the power needed to keep your gaming machine on for as long as it takes to download a game? Laying the cables or installing the transmitters necessary for a connection good enough to smoothly download games (in the majority of the world where such connections don't exist yet) can't disturb ecosystems?

Electricity production for grid use is vastly more efficient than running a car. As for cables/transmitters, you're neglecting all the various other benefits that come with laying that cable, the least of which is DD use, as well as inflating the idea that countries without any sort of online infrastructure will suddenly skip over various stages and become large markets for modern DD gaming.

A big fiber pipe isn't going to be carved through the Congo just so diamond-mine slaves can play WoW in their spare time.

And what about physical media now? The box? Recyclable and often made from partly recycled materials. The manuals? The disc itself? Ditto.

Do you really want to play the "what about" game? Things you aren't including:
Energy to keep the lights/AC/etc on at the retail store.
Fuel expended by employees going to the store.
Fuel expended shipping the product to the store (multiple stages from manufacture to distro (could be multiple steps there) to retail).
Fuel expended by the customer going to the store.
Plus other various opportunity costs. Do you really think it's good for the environment to have someone running a cash register or stocking shelves at Best Buy? Do you think that recycled materials just magically appear at the recycling processing plant/box manufacturer/disc manufacturer/label manufacturer/instruction manual manufacturer/shrink wrap (or sticker) manufacturer?

 

[seb]

Oh, music industry comparers... how quickly you forget.

Music downloaded to a computer can be backed up to a physical medium like a CD/DVD-R. What these people are describing offers no such ability.

Failed analogy fails.

I'm not sure if this is what you want to say, but games downloaded to the PSP Go can be backed up to physical media as well. They're just there in your explorer when you connect the usb cable. Copy them, burn them, keep them in jewel cases if you want.
The DRM kicks in when you want to play them, and then it's still pretty permissive (up to 5 registered PSP).

 

[brandonh83]

One of my favorite novelties about being a gamer is seeing my huge collection every time I look in the direction of my entertainment center. I love having that stuff, I love playing games and I love to collect things, so it's like two hobbies in one. I like Steam, and downloading games and all, but I seriously hope that physical games don't ever go away.

 

[7Th]

Want to play that game you bought years later? You can't, sorry. Wait until your console giant of choice allows you to download and pay for it again. Is that game you love a niche game, the publisher of which went belly-up? Pray someone bought the rights, remembers it and also thinks it's worth releasing again in the online store or no re-play for you!

That's what emulation is for. The creator of the original game gets as much money if you emulate it as if you buy a used copy years after it was originally related.b

 

[FLEABttn]

If the day comes when I have to choose DD or nothing, I'll pick a parrot on my shoulder with no regrets.

Why do you feel that you are owed games?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

XBL arcade games aren't physical media, do you feel ripped off by purchasing those games? Digital downloads just means less clutter in my living space, and digital downloads of music don't seem to have affected the consumer in any major way. I'm looking forward to our download future, but I do think physical media will hold for a period of time.

Actually, yes I did, once. I bought a game, it turned out to be junk, and I couldn't do anything with it. So after that I didn't buy any games anymore that I didn't already know were good.

 

[Tobor]

It's hard to imagine this given how all powerful it is now, but the iTunes store is only 6 years old. In 6 years the business model of the music industry has been completely blown apart and rebuilt. CD sales have plummeted in the same amount that digital sales have skyrocketed.

10 years from now? Kindles will cost $50 or even free and be everywhere. Netflix will have fully phased out disc rental and deliver 100% of it's content through streaming. You'll base your TV purchase on which streaming services are built in. Bandwidth will be dramatically increased. Cell phone networks will deliver speeds 10 times our current home ISPs provide and be available everywhere. Gaming will be completely transformed in 10 years. It's not just about changing the medium, the entire business model will change. How games are priced, distributed, and experienced will be fundamentally different than today. As somebody said above, 10 years is an eternity.

 

[Chittagong]

It's incredible how many DD haters here are. I, for one, welcome a fully digital gaming future. No, actually, I predicted one more than a year ago.

With the iPod, I stopped buying physical music. With the Apple TV, I stopped buying physical movies and TV series. I hope and believe that with the next Xbox, I'll stop buying physical games.

Nothing easier than having games tied to your account, available forever, and not needing closets after closets to store them. Missing the bargains, loans and re-sell is a price I'm willing to pay.

 

[Kintaro]

XBL arcade games aren't physical media, do you feel ripped off by purchasing those games? Digital downloads just means less clutter in my living space, and digital downloads of music don't seem to have affected the consumer in any major way. I'm looking forward to our download future, but I do think physical media will hold for a period of time.

Perhaps you should check the archives to see GAF's reactions to the slowly raising prices of XBLA games over the years.

It's incredible how many DD haters here are. I, for one, welcome a fully digital gaming future. No, actually, I predicted one more than a year ago.

With the iPod, I stopped buying physical music. With the Apple TV, I stopped buying physical movies and TV series. I hope and believe that with the next Xbox, I'll stop buying physical games.

Nothing easier than having games tied to your account, available forever, and not needing closets after closets to store them. Missing the bargains, loans and re-sell is a price I'm willing to pay.

Just as you're amazed by how many DD haters there are, I'm amazed at how many suckers there are.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Why do you feel that you are owed games?

I think a better question is why game companies feel they are owed purchases.

 

[FLEABttn]

I think a better question is why game companies feel they are owed purchases.

Until game companies can make copies of what you do for a living without paying for it, that's not really a better question.

 

[Night_Trekker]

That's what emulation is for. The creator of the original game gets as much money if you emulate it as if you buy a used copy years after it was originally related.b

Personally I agree (intellectually... I'm not admitting anything ban-worthy here), but it's not as if emulating those game is entirely legal either.

 

[LCfiner]

Actually, yes I did, once. I bought a game, it turned out to be junk, and I couldn't do anything with it. So after that I didn't buy any games anymore that I didn't already know were good.

this is generally sound purchasing advice for any product, from any medium.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Until game companies can make copies of what you do for a living without paying for it, that's not really a better question.

Ah yes, the old stripe of assuming the customer is a criminal.

You know, there's only one other industry that treats its customers with as much disdain as the video game industry, and it's not one anyone should want to emulate. Developers and publishers really fucking need to remember who's paying whose wages, because continuing down this path will only take them to complete ruin.

I didn't notice initially the guy was talking about going for piracy as an option, rather I thought he was just going to give up the hobby, but still, my point stands. Just... not so much as a response to you.

 

[Minsc]

That's what emulation is for. The creator of the original game gets as much money if you emulate it as if you buy a used copy years after it was originally related.b

Emulating commercial software you don't buy/own is illegal and a quick way to get banned. It doesn't matter if it's not available for purchase in a store or online. That's copyright infringement

Spoiler

or stealing

.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

this is generally sound purchasing advice for any product, from any medium.

The difference is, with physical media he could have sold the game, and probably gotten back 80 - 90% of what he paid for it.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

this is generally sound purchasing advice for any product, from any medium.

Well, I guess it's sound, but it means a couple of things. First, that I'm going to miss out on any sleeper games, because there's no way I'm going to take a risk like that when I can't resell, and secondly, the companies that make games like that are going to lose sales from people like me.

 

[FLEABttn]

Ah yes, the old stripe of assuming the customer is a criminal.

I made no such assumption. The person I quoted said that if DD is the inevitable future, he will turn to piracy. There's no leap of logic, he said it himself.

Which makes me wonder why he feels like he's owed these games.

edit

I didn't notice initially the guy was talking about going for piracy as an option, rather I thought he was just going to give up the hobby, but still, my point stands. Just... not so much as a response to you.

Acknowledged.

 

[BananaBomb]

What is with all you people being scared of not being able to "physically own" anything? A disk is no more "physical" than a damn hard drive. I really don't see a difference except for convenience.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I made no such assumption. The person I quoted said that if DD is the inevitable future, he will turn to piracy. There's no leap of logic, he said it himself.

Which makes me wonder why he feels like he's owed these games.

Yes, I fucked up.

 

[7Th]

Emulating commercial software you don't buy/own is illegal and a quick way to get banned. It doesn't matter if it's not available for purchase in a store. That's copyright infringement.

Copyright infringement is a pretty tricky concept in this thread, don't you think? I mean, why isn't selling used copies copyright infringement? Don't they ultimately amount to the same? In both cases, the original creator, or whoever the copyright holder is, gets no money for it.

 

[Version 3.0]

Why do you feel that you are owed games?

I'm not "owed" games. What I'm "owed" is acknowledgement of my moral and legal rights. I have the right to own what I buy. If these publishers think they can sell me something but not allow me to own it, then as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off. I spend thousands of dollars a year on videogames. I buy most games on or near launch at full price, and almost never sell, trade, or give them away. In short, I'm their dream customer. And I'll remain so, as long as they simply allow me to own what I buy from them. Is that so much to ask?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

What is with all you people being scared of not being able to "physically own" anything? A disk is no more "physical" than a damn hard drive. I really don't see a difference except for convenience.

Psst, want to buy my copy of Assault Heroes for XBLA? Only $5, send money first plz.

 

[7Th]

I'm not "owed" games. What I'm "owed" is acknowledgement of my moral and legal rights. I have the right to own what I buy. If these publishers think they can sell me something but not allow me to own it, then as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off. I spend thousands of dollars a year on videogames. I buy most games on or near launch at full price, and almost never sell, trade, or give them away. In short, I'm their dream customer. And I'll remain so, as long as they simply allow me to own what I buy from them. Is that so much to ask?

The problem is that they are not selling you a video-game, they are selling you a license to play it. It's like going to movies, not like buying a car.

 

[Night_Trekker]

What is with all you people being scared of not being able to "physically own" anything? A disk is no more "physical" than a damn hard drive. I really don't see a difference except for convenience.

Want to play that game you bought years later? You can't, sorry. Wait until your console giant of choice allows you to download and pay for it again. Is that game you love a niche game, the publisher of which went belly-up? Pray someone bought the rights, remembers it and also thinks it's worth releasing again in the online store or no re-play for you!

There's a difference that could matter.