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[mambadragon]

I'm torn. I absolutely love how on Steam I have all my games installed and I can launch them with no disc swapping. It's also nice that I don't have all of the boxes around which I always feel guily about throwing away . On the downside, these days most of my purchases seem to come from the Target clearance rack. Steam sales are great but I just couldn't see MS, Sony, or Nintendo ever offering similar deals.

I also for whatever reason trust companies like Valve and Stardock in regards to DRM more than I ever would the 3 console companies. I can just see having to rebuy games every new console cycle (which has already started!)

 

[BananaBomb]

Psst, want to buy my copy of Assault Heroes for XBLA? Only $5, send money first plz.

You should not equate the ease of implementing DRM using a specific medium with the actual nature of the medium. I can give you fallout 2 from my GOG account on a USB drive right now if I wanted to - blame microsoft, not DD.

 

[Falagard]

They'll never launch a console without a way for you to open up a video game present on Christmas morning and start playing it immediately.

That means:

a) You still need to be able to buy a box at retail (in addition to being able to download it completely digitally).

b) You shouldn't have to wait to download a game to play it if you've bought it at retail.

My guess is that disc based media is replaced with a combination of flash memory and Smart Cards.

 

[KevinCow]

Copyright infringement is a pretty tricky concept in this thread, don't you think? I mean, why isn't selling used copies copyright infringement? Don't they ultimately amount to the same? In both cases, the original creator, or whoever the copyright holder is, gets no money for it.

:lol

 

[Version 3.0]

Copyright infringement is a pretty tricky concept in this thread, don't you think? I mean, why isn't selling used copies copyright infringement? Don't they ultimately amount to the same? In both cases, the original creator, or whoever the copyright holder is, gets no money for it.

It's not tricky at all. It's a very simple concept. If I buy a game, I'm allowed to sell it. the original creator got their money when the publisher bought it, who got their money when the store bought it, who got their money when I bought it, and so on. One game, one owner at a time. Emulation is making copies and giving them away to everyone for free. See the difference?

 

[FLEABttn]

I'm not "owed" games. What I'm "owed" is acknowledgement of my moral and legal rights. I have the right to own what I buy. If these publishers think they can sell me something but not allow me to own it, then as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off. I spend thousands of dollars a year on videogames. I buy most games on or near launch at full price, and almost never sell, trade, or give them away. In short, I'm their dream customer. And I'll remain so, as long as they simply allow me to own what I buy from them. Is that so much to ask?

It's not so much to ask. Though it's hard to own non-physical things, which is where I understand why you don't want a digital only future, and why publishers are cautiously for it.

However, assuming a digital only future, you pirating would come off as you feel obligated to have games. That's sort of my point. "I refuse to buy it in a way I don't like it, so I'm going to obtain it regardless neener neener".

 

[Kintaro]

What is with all you people being scared of not being able to "physically own" anything? A disk is no more "physical" than a damn hard drive. I really don't see a difference except for convenience.

You don't honestly believe this, do you? Because I weep for the future if true.

 

[7Th]

:lol

It's not tricky at all. It's a very simple concept. If I buy a game, I'm allowed to sell it. the original creator got their money when the publisher bought it, who got their money when the store bought it, who got their money when I bought it, and so on. One game, one owner at a time. Emulation is making copies and giving them away to everyone for free. See the difference?

Yeah, I know, my post was totally ridiculous. But so is the concept that people OWN a video-game. They own a permit to play it; nothing more. It's almost like buying a ticket to the movies. You can't compare buying a video-game to to buying a car because, unlike the car, the manufacturing process in the video-game is meaningless and the game itself is a product that will never "get old" or loss usability. It's impossible to compare video-games to physical, tangible goods and still perplexes me people insist in doing so.

 

[Minsc]

Copyright infringement is a pretty tricky concept in this thread, don't you think? I mean, why isn't selling used copies copyright infringement? Don't they ultimately amount to the same? In both cases, the original creator, or whoever the copyright holder is, gets no money for it.

Well, now you're turning away completely from my initial concern, of arguing that emulation is a good solution to getting a hold of games no longer available for purchase.

I'd say we damn well should be entitled to the same rights of selling digital copies of software as we do physical ones, but the law and technology hasn't caught up. You can gift digital versions of games (as it makes them money), but you can't sell your digital library and in many cases, not only can you not sell it, but it is actually illegal to do so.

But that's a whole separate issue from the idea that emulating or downloading older games you don't own and can't buy (other than used) is ok.

 

[Version 3.0]

The problem is that they are not selling you a video-game, they are selling you a license to play it. It's like going to movies, not like buying a car.

That's what they want to do, but it's not true. You're buying into their nonsense. The law is very clear on this point. And that's what I've been trying to say: publishers want to circumvent the law--and basic morality--by switching to DD. They've long since lost that fight with physical media, despite the lengthy EULA in every game. Now they're hoping to change that without any resistance.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

You should not equate the ease of implementing DRM using a specific medium with the actual nature of the medium. I can give you fallout 2 from my GOG account on a USB drive right now if I wanted to - blame microsoft, not DD.

Oh, so you're suggesting the DD future that doesn't involve Microsoft, Sony, Apple, or Nintendo. I like science fiction too!

 

[TunaLover]

DD is good for people like me who live in small countries with reatilers that don't carry great variety of games, and rape you left and right in prices. It will be interesting that future games don't pay import taxes, taxes are a stealth from the goverment, so I'm all for DD, the way I only pay to the developer/publisher the right price for the software piece.

 

[constableroark]

I will purchase major games digitally if and only if:

1) Publishers recognize that the game is purchased as opposed to licensed (doubtful), therefore allowing me all the benefits that traditionally come with personal ownership in the U.S.

2) I am not inhibited from backing-up this content, and it does not require internet authentication to play.

Despite courts consistently siding with consumers on point (1), I would rather that publishers altogether concede that purchased games are personal property and not simply licensed works over which they retain broad rights.

 

[BananaBomb]

You don't honestly believe this, do you? Because I weep for the future if true.

Tell me friend, I have Galactic Civilizations 2 archived on an external hard drive, and at any time, on any computer, I can install it and play it immediately. How is this different from a disk.

 

[Warm Machine]

Does anyone really think that Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, or Apple are going to go out of business in your lifetime?

Next MS console is likely going to retain your gamertag and all your purchases. Whether you can play your old games on that hardware is the big question. PS3 the same.

DD has the ability of retaining rights across consoles more so than physical media has. It isn't like you can plug a NES cart into a Wii, but give me the option of sending my carts back to Nintendo as proof of ownership in exchange for a DD license that extends forever into the future for play on all their upcoming consoles and I'll do it.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Yeah, I know, it's far-fetched and ridiculous. But so is the concept that people OWN a video-game. They own a permit to play it; nothing more. It's almost like buying a ticket to the movies. You can't compare buying a video-game to to buying a car because, unlike the car, the manufacturing process in the video-game is meaningless and the game itself is a product that will never "get old" or loss usability. It's impossible to compare video-games to physical, tangible goods.

Sorry, I've heard some of the company men use this line, and it's bullshit. Physical media degrades just like any other physical good. When my Final Fantasy 8 disc was scratched beyond all recognition, I didn't see SE sending me another disc to use with my "license". I had to buy another copy of the game.

Also pretty damn sure the batteries in most older cart games have died and replacing them isn't exactly a simple jobby. That's if they'll even play, after giving them a thorough blowjob.

 

[BananaBomb]

Oh, so you're suggesting the DD future that doesn't involve Microsoft, Sony, Apple, or Nintendo. I like science fiction too!

Microsoft is not an unchanging entity bound to one philosophy only. If you will only pay for DD if you're treated like you want to be, then they will adjust to meet your needs and your money.

 

[7Th]

That's what they want to do, but it's not true. You're buying into their nonsense. The law is very clear on this point. And that's what I've been trying to say: publishers want to circumvent the law--and basic morality--by switching to DD. They've long since lost that fight with physical media, despite the lengthy EULA in every game. Now they're hoping to change that without any resistance.

It's not "basic morality" to think you own a video-game, that's just being illogical and feeling entitled. You can't compare a video-game to a physical good because it isn't a physical good in the traditional sense. In fact, it is more akin to a service than to a good.

 

[Version 3.0]

"I refuse to buy it in a way I don't like it, so I'm going to obtain it regardless neener neener".

That's not quite right. It's more like "You think you can circumvent the law and not allow me to buy it, so I'm going to circumvent the law and get it without paying you." It has nothing to do with childish spite.

 

[7Th]

Sorry, I've heard some of the company men use this line, and it's bullshit. Physical media degrades just like any other physical good. When my Final Fantasy 8 disc was scratched beyond all recognition, I didn't see SE sending me another disc to use with my "license". I had to buy another copy of the game.

Also pretty damn sure the batteries in most older cart games have died and replacing them isn't exactly a simple jobby. That's if they'll even play, after giving them a thorough blowjob.

You can back-up, them, can't you? I mean, most of GAF would argue that digitally backing-up games you "own" is something you're pretty much entitled to do.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Sorry, I've heard some of the company men use this line, and it's bullshit. Physical media degrades just like any other physical good. When my Final Fantasy 8 disc was scratched beyond all recognition, I didn't see SE sending me another disc to use with my "license". I had to buy another copy of the game.

Also pretty damn sure the batteries in most older cart games have died and replacing them isn't exactly a simple jobby. That's if they'll even play, after giving them a thorough blowjob.

Except pretty much every company has a disc replacement process.

 

[mike0513]

If they want to go all-digital, the best way to counterbalance it would be to allow the consumer to burn one copy of the game they download.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

It's not "basic morality" to think you own a video-game, that's just being illogical and feeling entitled. You can't compare a video-game to a physical good because it isn't a physical good in the traditional sense. In fact, it is more akin to a service than to a good.

It *is* a physical good, at the present time. Just like a DVD. Just like a book. As such it is covered under the same laws that govern those products, and not some stupid "Game Industry is a Special Snowflake" law that only applies to feed those poor starving game publishers.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Except pretty much every company has a disc replacement process.

That's not what Square EA said at that time. They said it was my own fault, so they weren't obligated to replace the disc.

 

[7Th]

It *is* a physical good, at the present time. Just like a DVD. Just like a book. As such it is covered under the same laws that govern those products, and not some stupid "Game Industry is a Special Snowflake" law that only applies to feed those poor starving game publishers.

It is a physical good only due to a compromise of technological limitations, it isn't a physical good in the logical sense. Books are already going the way of DD with products such as the Kindle becoming more and more popular.

DD benefits writers, in fact, because they're able to sell their work without having to license it to a publisher that will get most of the profit. DD is also what, nowadays, allows for a surge of creative, independent music.

 

[AstroLad]

Also pretty damn sure the batteries in most older cart games have died and replacing them isn't exactly a simple jobby. That's if they'll even play, after giving them a thorough blowjob.

Blowjobs are violations of the explicit terms of the license.

 

[Hobbun]

It's not "basic morality" to think you own a video-game, that's just being illogical and feeling entitled. You can't compare a video-game to a physical good because it isn't a physical good in the traditional sense. In fact, it is more akin to a service than to a good.

And how isn't it a physical good? When you go to the store, pay money for your physical copy of the game, it is yours 100%.

Just like the car you buy is a copy of the prototype that was built. Of course you don't own the license to the game, but then you don't own the rights to build a Honda Accord (or insert car).

Both are physical goods. What you are thinking of in service is playing it online (like the upcoming OnLive). They can pull that at anytime and you lose access to your game.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

It is a physical good only due to a compromise of technological limitations, it isn't a physical good in the logical sense. Books are already going the way of DD with products such as the Kindle becoming more and more popular.

No, it's a physical good because it's a physical good, and as such things like used sales are treated the same way any physical good is. Remember, this line started with you saying used sales were pretty much the same as piracy. Legally speaking, they definitely are not, and there is absolutely no gray area in that at all.

If/when things go DD, that changes, of course. But think about why the first sale doctrine is there in the first place. Does the product not being physical really change the intention of that law? I wonder how long it will take the law to catch up with the tech, here.

 

[Kintaro]

Tell me friend, I have Galactic Civilizations 2 archived on an external hard drive, and at any time, on any computer, I can install it and play it immediately. How is this different from a disk.

I'm not your friend, buddy.

You obviously miss the distinction and perception of value behind a physical good and a hard drive with a digital file on it. Even if the physical good is a disc with a file on it. There is still a perception of value there that will always be there.

For example, there is a ton of difference between a paperback book and a digital file of the same book to a reader of books

So many factors that go into a DD only future as we move forward that hasn't even started to move yet. Govenment and lawmakers will not doubt turn their attention to it. Broadband providers will want a huge cut of the pie (because without them, there is no DD market. Period), and so on... I think that the gaming industry should be careful in what it wishes for.

 

[Zachack]

You can back-up, them, can't you? I mean, most of GAF would argue that digitally backing-up games you "own" is something you're pretty much entitled to do.

So you're saying you should be allowed to backup a game, destroy the original media, and then sell the backup provided you transfer the license with it?

I mean, I theoretically agree that's how it should work but it'll never happen for what should be obvious reasons.

 

[Tobor]

They'll never launch a console without a way for you to open up a video game present on Christmas morning and start playing it immediately.

I understand the posts lamenting the shift to DD as an affront to consumer rights. I understand the post's from atypical consumers who assume incorrectly that their absurd spending habits have any place in a discussion about the future of a mainstream medium.

What I don't understand is how anyone can look at all the trending and the vast changes that have occurred since the launch of the 360 and not see the inevitable conclusion.

 

[Animal]

Peter is right. I've been waiting for the DD future for a long time now and I'm glad we're finally making it happen.

 

[7Th]

Just like the car you buy is a copy of the prototype that was built. Of course you don't own the license to the game, but then you don't own the rights to build a Honda Accord (or insert car).

The "copy" of the prototype car costs much more to produce than the "copy" of the "original" video-game you're being sold. That's just a silly, non-sense analogy.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

DD benefits writers, in fact, because they're able to sell their work without having to license it to a publisher that will get most of the profit. DD is also what, nowadays, allows for a surge of creative, independent music.

Okay, now tell me how it benefits me. Because the chances of me taking a risk on purchasing anything new, creative, or independent are pretty damn minimal if I can't resell it in the case that I don't like it, so it's not like I'll be enjoying all this astonishing creativity.

 

[BananaBomb]

I'm not your friend, buddy.

You obviously miss the distinction and perception of value behind a physical good and a hard drive with a digital file on it. Even if the physical good is a disc with a file on it. There is still a perception of value there that will always be there.

For example, there is a ton of difference between a paperback book and a digital file of the same book to a reader of books.

Yes, there is a difference in value between a file on a book reader and an actual book. But like you said, what's the difference between a file on an optical disk and a file on a solid-state drive? The method used to interface them with the computer? Please.

 

[mrklaw]

Surely a pro is that you can have a Market for niche games? What's the PSP shelf like at your local store? I know that PSN- as much as it gets criticised - has a wider selection of games than any of my local stores

As for games magically exploding ten years down the line- what happens when your SNES gives up the ghost and replacements get hard to find? Obsolescence is built into all of these closed platforms

and whose to say the DRM will be unfair? If eg Sony ever drop out of gaming and shut their servers down, couldn't they do something like steam have suggested?

I do wonder about competition though. Maybe there is no issue because you don't *need* a console, but I do think if all consoles go DD only there will need to be some regulation. Maybe forcing open stores, or some way to ensure competition

 

[camineet]

I say we should go to solid-state removeable physical media for the next-generation (2011 ~ 2019)

physical media will not be gone in the coming generation.

The generation after that (Xbox4, PS5) yeah, by then DD-only could be a reality. With the Xbox3 ,PS4 gen, it'll prolly be hybrid of physical media and DD with a more even split between the two. This current generation is physical media and DD with the slant still very much towards physical.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

What I don't understand is how anyone can look at all the trending and the vast changes that have occurred since the launch of the 360 and not see the inevitable conclusion.

Which conclusion, that everyone except Activision, Nintendo, and Capcom are going to go bankrupt?

 

[Version 3.0]

It's not "basic morality" to think you own a video-game, that's just being illogical and feeling entitled. You can't compare a video-game to a physical good because it isn't a physical good in the traditional sense. In fact, it is more akin to a service than to a good.

Yes, I can compare. And so can our legal system. It's been done, and the law is very clear on this point: you do own games that you purchase. You're not leasing them or buying a service. Please stop parroting the EULA nonsense you've seen. It's absolutely invalid.

Now publishers want to treat DD as a license purchase--just like they tried years ago with cartridge and disc games. They think they have a chance to stop selling games and start leasing them. I refuse to relinquish my rights just because the media changes, and I'm sure the issue will be addressed specifically in courts sooner or later. Meanwhile, you seem to want to give up now, and also surrender the rights that you already have by law.

 

[Hobbun]

The "copy" of the prototype car costs much more to produce than the "copy" of the "original" video-game you're being sold. That's just a silly, non-sense analogy.

You sure about that? Depends on the game. A lot of games cost well into the millions now to produce.

But besides that, you were the one who made the comparison to the car in the first place and the price is irrelavent. Both have originals and what you buy is the copy. So my point is there is no difference in buying a car than video game, the copies of them are both something that you own. Whether the original for one costs a billion dollars to produce and the other one a dollar.

 

[7Th]

Okay, now tell me how it benefits me. Because the chances of me taking a risk on purchasing anything new, creative, or independent are pretty damn minimal if I can't resell it in the case that I don't like it, so it's not like I'll be enjoying all this astonishing creativity.

That's what demos, reviews and word-of-mouth serve for. When you go to the theater, do you think that they should give you your money back if you didn't like the movie?

Yes, I can compare. And so can our legal system. It's been done, and the law is very clear on this point: you do own games that you purchase. You're not leasing them or buying a service. Please stop parroting the EULA nonsense you've seen. It's absolutely invalid.

Now publishers want to treat DD as a license purchase--just like they tried years ago with cartridge and disc games. They think they have a chance to stop selling games and start leasing them. I refuse to relinquish my rights just because the media changes, and I'm sure the issue will be addressed specifically in courts sooner or later. Meanwhile, you seem to want to give up now, and also surrender the rights that you already have by law.

Law isn't logical or objective. Treating video-games as physical goods isn't logical, it is something that benefits the consumer. And that's fine, but it isn't logical at all.

 

[Minsc]

No, it's a physical good because it's a physical good, and as such things like used sales are treated the same way any physical good is. Remember, this line started with you saying used sales were pretty much the same as piracy. Legally speaking, they definitely are not, and there is absolutely no gray area in that at all.

If/when things go DD, that changes, of course. But think about why the first sale doctrine is there in the first place. Does the product not being physical really change the intention of that law? I wonder how long it will take the law to catch up with the tech, here.

Seeing how you can't re-sell your purchased mp3s / itunes songs, and the law and general public don't care about that, I doubt the law and general public will care about reselling rights with video games either.

 

[Kintaro]

Yes, there is a difference in value between a file on a book reader and an actual book. But like you said, what's the difference between a file on an optical disk and a file on a solid-state drive? The method used to interface them with the computer? Please.

The feeling of ownership for one. The feeling of worth. Of value. Digital files downloaded over some network aren't nearly worth as much. I understand that this generation has fucked up everyone's sense of value and worth but I do see flickers of it everyday.

By running as fast as they can towards a DD only future, all they are doing is lowering the worth and value of their product. There is no feeling of ownership over a digital file. I don't feel the same after buying an album over itunes and buying a CD from my local music shop. I don't feel the same buying a game over PSN as I do buying it at my local store and having it in my hands. Just like I don't feel the same talking to someone over text messaging as I do face to face.

So, by speeding towards this future, all they will end up doing is devaluing their products at an increased rate while continuing to convince you it's worth just as much. Well, maybe to you. Those who have fucked up this gaming generation, but not me.

All of this comes from a devout minimalist. One who sees the value in decluttering your life. However, I'm also not about to be screwed up the ass just to have less things around.

 

[mrklaw]

They'll never launch a console without a way for you to open up a video game present on Christmas morning and start playing it immediately.

iPod touch might not be a 'console' on the strictest sense but it's actively marketed around games

both it and the PSPgo take effort to get anything on them, and both will be under trees this Christmas

I'd expect to have to set it up in advance of the big day, but many parents won't realise this

 

[Tobor]

Which conclusion, that everyone except Activision, Nintendo, and Capcom are going to go bankrupt?

That's certainly a possibility. I read your earlier posts on Atlus. I don't see it the same way. There's no reason why digital distribution would preclude "limited editions". Buy a new release in the first week and get a DLC item or MP3 soundtrack for free, for example.

If a company is creative and can build a loyal community, they can move to this new world relatively painlessly. If not, then I agree, they're in trouble.

 

[FLEABttn]

That's not quite right. It's more like "You think you can circumvent the law and not allow me to buy it, so I'm going to circumvent the law and get it without paying you." It has nothing to do with childish spite.

It's not necessarily circumventing the law. It hasn't been tested in court very well (at all?) to see if first-sale is applicable to digital licenses. If you don't own a thing, you may very well not really have a right to it.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

That's what demos, reviews and word-of-mouth serve for. When you go to the theater, do you think that they should give you your money back if you didn't like the movie?

If you leave before the movie is over you can definitely get your money back. That's standard practice at pretty much any more theater I've been to.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Seeing how you can't re-sell your purchased mp3s / itunes songs, and the law and general public don't care about that, I doubt the law and general public will care about reselling rights with video games either.

How much do individual tracks cost on iTunes? You buy a song you don't like and you're out very little money. Not so with games.

 

[bryehn]

A year ago I was completely opposed to digital-only distribution. Now I am completely and utterly accepting of it.

I find myself playing for XBLA/PSN/iPhone/WiiWare games than retail ones these days and if I can move towards downloading all my "retail" games without ever setting foot in a store or waiting through stupid delays caused by living in Canada I will.

I would like to see more digital bonuses though, like soundtracks, viewable manuals such as the booklets you get in iTunes and video extras.

I also live in a place where I pay $40/mo for a 20 mbps connection with no bandwidth cap, so that obviously skews my opinion a bit. If I was still on a regular cable or DSL connection, I certainly wouldn't be in a hurry to download 5-10 GB games.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Seeing how you can't re-sell your purchased mp3s / itunes songs, and the law and general public don't care about that, I doubt the law and general public will care about reselling rights with video games either.

Again that's not an apples to apples comparison. The way people "consume" music and the way they do video games is completely different.