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[Zachack]

Yes, I am. I am buying a DVD that contains a certain amount of information, jsut like when I buy a packet of potato chips. The bag is simply the container for what I really want (most of the time), but that doesn't mean I don't buy the bag at the same time.

...Now I'm making stupid analogies. I blame this thread and the lack of sleep.

Your analogy is poor because if games actually behaved like bags of potato chips then I doubt there'd be any real hurry to DD. Potato chips degrade in value heavily the instant they leave the store and almost completely once you've "used" them. For games to behave like this they'd have to be made (assuming disc media) of a material that contains an expiration date at which point they'd be unreadable.

Or be like a PC game with a CD key, which is why the used PC game market is pretty much zilch compared to consoles.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

hmm, alright. the quote is pretty specific.

I think it's interesting that so many people here think a DD only console can't happen ten years from now when there already exists two DD only devices (iPhone and PSP go) plus tons of DD games on PCs and DD games on all major consoles.

10 years is a long time in the tech space. I would be shocked if there wasn't a DD only console in less than 7 years.

10 years ago the original iPod didn't even launch. No not when the iPod broke through mass market, but when this baby came out:

Digital Distribution was some fantasy imagination land back then that would only be seen in those sci-fi films. Not trying to say that the idea was super high tech or was cutting edge, I mean non-physical media obvious already existed by that point (CD Burning?), just that it was so foreign to consumers.

I'm not saying Digital Distribution will take over for sure, just that there is a significant chance for it. But no matter where this goes, in the future, digital and physical will both be standard in a gaming system for what we now call retail games.

Anyway, I'm done with the thread, I gotta get some sleep. We have this debate all the time and I think if there's one thing you can take away from it, it's that physical media isn't going to go without a fight.

 

[HAL_Laboratory]

No surprise here, been saying it for a while.

 

[7Th]

... I'd say you take the cake when it comes to idiocy, but you'd insist you don't own the cake, just the license to eat it.

Not the same thing at all. You don't get the same experience from eating a cake made out of chocolate as you do from eating a cake made out of vanilla. A cake is made out of tangible materials. You do, however, get the exact same experience from playing a DD game that was never contained on a disk as you do from playing a game you bought on a store and was contained on a disk. The game itself is information, the disk is only a medium.

Is it really so hard to stop the nonsensical analogies?

 

[Hesemonni]

If consoles go DD only I'll just move to a certain Bay populated by funny talking people with parrots, wooden legs and shit and start enjoying the same products for free.

 

[Pureauthor]

Your analogy is poor because if games actually behaved like bags of potato chips then I doubt there'd be any real hurry to DD. Potato chips degrade in value heavily the instant they leave the store and almost completely once you've "used" them. For games to behave like this they'd have to be made (assuming disc media) of a material that contains an expiration date at which point they'd be unreadable.

Or be like a PC game with a CD key, which is why the used PC game market is pretty much zilch compared to consoles.

That's not my problem - if the publisher is worried about resale value of the game the onus is on him to make a game I don't want to resell, or to balance dev costs where resales (which, once again, applies to every other facet of the industry involving physical goods) can be factored comfortably into the equation.

 

[Tobor]

So now we should be happy about the loss of physical media and its associated benefits AND cheerful about the gutting of popular content-heavy genres.

The content will still exist, but you might be buying it ala carte instead of in one giant serving.

 

[Warm Machine]

If consoles go DD only I'll just move to a certain Bay populated by funny talking people with parrots, wooden legs and shit and start enjoying the same products for free.

So you'll steal their work...

 

[devilhunterx]

"game case with the manual" >>> DD.

It feels more authentic.

 

[Hesemonni]

So you'll steal their work...

But I'll get a parrot and a wooden leg in exchange. I can still go see my favorite game developer live and buy some t-shirts the next time they'll come gig near my home town.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

The only argument I can see against DD is that somehow local game shops will be castrated and gaming culture set back, but seeing as those barely exist nowadays anyway, there really isn't anything to lose.

Well, you have to take into mind the context with which many people are entering the discussion. Going back a year, I was completely against the notion of DD being the direction the industry should go, and there were several reasons for that. One is that I was a console gamer where there were very few instances of DD and retail being an option for the same product. Also, the DD option invariably would cost the same or more if it did exist. Being on a slower connection back then, the argument was a no-brainer. I could pay the same amount, wait hours for the game to download, and end up with a copy that couldn't be easily transported (if I wanted to take it over to a friend's house, for instance), couldn't be lent out, couldn't be traded in (and so on), or I could drive the measly three minutes to the nearest store, buy it, and be playing within fifteen minutes. It's for these reasons that I think DD-only is a non-starter for the current mindset of what console gamers have been used to for the last two to three decades.

But move over to the PC side, and it's a completely different story. But this is also why there's been a lot more progress for DD on the PC. Resale is practically an alien concept there, swapping discs is an annoyance since most people to a complete install to the hard drive, and the two to four players sitting around the TV for multiplayer setup commonplace on consoles is very rare, there (thus mitigating that 'I like taking the game over to a buddy's house for game night' argument). There, the concept of disc ownership is largely unimportant, and to that end I wouldn't really miss PC games not being at brick and mortar stores. It also helps that my internet connection is faster now (and uncapped), and I now live further away from the big box retailers than I used to.

 

[Tobor]

Well, you have to take into mind the context with which many people are entering the discussion. Going back a year, I was completely against the notion of DD being the direction the industry should go, and there were several reasons for that. One is that I was a console gamer where there were very few instances of DD and retail being an option for the same product. Also, the DD option invariably would cost the same or more if it did exist. Being on a slower connection back then, the argument was a no-brainer. I could pay the same amount, wait hours for the game to download, and end up with a copy that couldn't be easily transported (if I wanted to take it over to a friend's house, for instance), couldn't be lent out, couldn't be traded in (and so on), or I could drive the measly three minutes to the nearest store, buy it, and be playing within fifteen minutes. It's for these reasons that I think DD-only is a non-starter for the current mindset of what console gamers have been used to for the last two to three decades.

But move over to the PC side, and it's a completely different story. But this is also why there's been a lot more progress for DD on the PC. Resale is practically an alien concept there, swapping discs is an annoyance since most people to a complete install to the hard drive, and the two to four players sitting around the TV for multiplayer setup commonplace on consoles is very rare, there (thus mitigating that 'I like taking the game over to a buddy's house for game night' argument). There, the concept of disc ownership is largely unimportant, and to that end I wouldn't really miss PC games not being at brick and mortar stores. It also helps that my internet connection is faster now (and uncapped), and I now live further away from the big box retailers than I used to.

I don't disagree with this, but that's what MS and Sony have been chipping away at for the last few years. Slowly building up consumer confidence and dependence on digital delivery while trying not to provoke retail until it's past the point where retail matters. It's a relatively slow transition, slower than the music industry, but it's happening.

MS has ramped up XBLM masterfully, by the way. Look at the changes they've made to the online marketplace on a timeline and you can see the bigger plan in action.

 

[RurouniZel]

Not the same thing at all. You don't get the same experience from eating a cake made out of chocolate as you do from eating a cake made out of vanilla. A cake is made out of tangible materials. You do, however, get the exact same experience from playing a DD game that was never contained on a disk as you do from playing a game you bought on a store and was contained on a disk. The game itself is information, the disk is only a medium.

Is it really so hard to stop the nonsensical analogies?

Alright, I'm through with these petty games.

So if you declare bankruptcy and the Feds come to take everything you own, you think they're gonna pass over your games because you "you don't own them"?

So you're saying you can't file a report when someone breaks into your house and steals everything you own, you can't file a report because "you don't own them"?

It's legal property, period. Stop being stupid.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Not the same thing at all. You don't get the same experience from eating a cake made out of chocolate as you do from eating a cake made out of vanilla. A cake is made out of tangible materials. You do, however, get the exact same experience from playing a DD game that was never contained on a disk as you do from playing a game you bought on a store and was contained on a disk. The game itself is information, the disk is only a medium.

Is it really so hard to stop the nonsensical analogies?

This is sort of missing the point that when I buy a physical copy of the game, I am getting certain perks I won't have with a downloaded version. That amounts to a different customer experience.

If the game goes "out of print" or the publisher goes under and therefore isn't around any longer to authorize the sale of that game in an online store, I can still play my game. If I don't have my console connected to the internet, I can still play my game. If I get tired of the game or don't like it as much as I thought I would, I can sell that copy to someone else and recoup some of the money I spent to buy it. All of these are things I value about buying physical copies of games, and they are all things that factor into my purchase of those games.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

All in all, I guess digital distribution is the way to go, just that the law hasn't caught up with technology yet. These businesses will pull every stop to fuck over consumers where they can.

You missed the trick. Create demand, leak out supply quietly. I bet Atlus sold a fair few copies with those reprints, more than they would have if the games didn't have a legendary "buy it while you can" status.

Except Persona 4 is by far the best selling Megaten title in the States and it's been widely available since launch. Odin Sphere was one of Atlus USA's best selling games of all-time and it's always been widely available. And recalling the numbers Atlus USA has been far more successful, sales wise, with these games since adopting their new publishing model.

Not to mention reprints almost always sell less than the original first prints especially if the reprints are only available on sites like Amazon and Play-Asia. So I assume this is a rhetorical question?

I mean really they don't do that "create demand" gig and haven't done so for quiet some time with any of their games for a reason. It's because allowing demand to keep up is more profitable for the company.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

The content will still exist, but you might be buying it ala carte instead of in one giant serving.

Ala carte always costs more, no thank you.

 

[poppabk]

And how isn't it a physical good? When you go to the store, pay money for your physical copy of the game, it is yours 100%.

The disc is yours, the game is not. They can add DRM that prevents the disc being used on more than one console, hell pretty much all PC software works this way, at which point the disk version and the DD version are basically the same, if they turn off the activation servers the disk and its contents are useless anyway.
DD or disc, purchasing only gives you the (limited) right to play the game, not the game itself. A DVD is the same, you own that disk and can give that one copy to as many people as you want, but try setting up a projector in a public place for people to watch the movie and see how long it takes for you to be told you can't - you have the right to do whatever you want with the disk, the content on it has a completely different set of rights.

 

[Tobor]

Ala carte always costs more, no thank you.

An iTunes style model will hopefully be available. Buy episodes individually or buy a whole season for a discount, that sort of thing.

 

[TAJ]

So in these lights, the "problem" is only a viewpoint issue, as you will be paying for games 50+ years later in the future, so did you 30 years ago. I think that people who are growing up now will have no real issues with DD method, as it is just following trends already seen in the movie/music industry.

Sadly, the clearest trend there is reduced quality compared to physical media.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

An iTunes style model will hopefully be available. Buy episodes individually or buy a whole season for a discount, that sort of thing.

Some times "episodic" gaming works. Alot of times it doesn't. I'm not a fan of it personally. I'd prefer a coehesive fully planned out full game, to the episodic stuff. Plus I don't want to have to pay 10 bucks for each world of the next Mario game and end up spending 80 on it, instead of the 50 it would have been now.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I don't disagree with this, but that's what MS and Sony have been chipping away at for the last few years. Slowly building up consumer confidence and dependence on digital delivery while trying not to provoke retail until it's past the point where retail matters. It's a relatively slow transition, slower than the music industry, but it's happening.

Sure. The problem for them in the transition -- if their aim is to eventually be all DD all the time -- is that they're fighting a battle where it's difficult to convince consumers that DD is the superior option. CDs were replaced for music thanks to the emergence of the MP3 player. DD works for PCs because consumers have been trained for years to realize that the value is typically in the activation keys, making the discs practically worthless in their own right aside from being a means to an end (installing the game on my machine).

If things stayed exactly as they are right this very second, save for the fact that all retail games show up on XBLA and PSN as well, what's my argument for convincing people that DD is the superior way to purchase games?

They're making progress, but they still have a LONG way to go.

 

[Steaks]

DD rules because I don't have to deal with some kid telling me I should have preordered a game smugly when I can drive 5 minutes further down the highway to buy the same damn game on release day.

Shit, the fact that I don't have to either pay for shipping, wait 3 days, or go to a store to buy a game is enough incentive for me.

 

[Mailenstein]

They should just continue like they are doing right now. Replace the disc with a download voucher and everything is fine. I don't give a damn about discs to be honest, but I still want those boxes, coverarts and stuff. I don't see a big deal here.

 

[speculawyer]

"Burning"? Is that some cockney slang?

Sinking, dying, fading . . . but burning? Sounds hot.

 

[John]

This is sort of missing the point that when I buy a physical copy of the game, I am getting certain perks I won't have with a downloaded version. That amounts to a different customer experience.

If the game goes "out of print" or the publisher goes under and therefore isn't around any longer to authorize the sale of that game in an online store, I can still play my game. If I don't have my console connected to the internet, I can still play my game. If I get tired of the game or don't like it as much as I thought I would, I can sell that copy to someone else and recoup some of the money I spent to buy it. All of these are things I value about buying physical copies of games, and they are all things that factor into my purchase of those games.

Unfortunately, there are physical games that demand this. I'm tired of lugging my rig up and down two stories to activate games I bought. I think these kinds of things are a bigger issue than DD vs. retail, but then again I don't sell games.

Of course, the biggest issue is that digital games don't go on 90% off clearance.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

They should just continue like they are doing right now. Replace the disc with a download voucher and everything is fine. I don't give a damn about discs to be honest, but I still want those boxes, coverarts and stuff. I don't see a big deal here.

That is a terrible idea. I know there are a couple of examples of this, but it's still lame. So, not only am I wasting my time driving to the store to buy the game, but I then have to go home and waste more time actually acquiring the data? What a horrible compromise.

 

[Hobbun]

The disc is yours, the game is not. They can add DRM that prevents the disc being used on more than one console, hell pretty much all PC software works this way, at which point the disk version and the DD version are basically the same, if they turn off the activation servers the disk and its contents are useless anyway.
DD or disc, purchasing only gives you the (limited) right to play the game, not the game itself. A DVD is the same, you own that disk and can give that one copy to as many people as you want, but try setting up a projector in a public place for people to watch the movie and see how long it takes for you to be told you can't - you have the right to do whatever you want with the disk, the content on it has a completely different set of rights.

I never said I owned the license to the game/movie and wanted to charge people to play a copy of my game or watch a copy of my movie. My point is I can do pretty much anything I want with my game or movie (barring charging people, which I was never arguing for in the first place, anyways) because I own that physical copy. If I want to loan my game to a friend of mine, I can. If I want to take my movie over to a friend of mine’s house and watch it, I can.

But as you even said, DRM prevents you from doing that with a DD copy. So no, physical media and DD are not the same in that regards.

 

[Vlightray]

The more I read about DD the more I hate the shit.Haven't bought any DD games nor DLC never will unless free stuff is given then I do but otherwise never. Box copy or NO Copy for me.

 

[percephone]

The problem is that they are not selling you a video-game, they are selling you a license to play it. It's like going to movies, not like buying a car.

I'll quote some case law..

Historically, the purpose of “licensing” computer program copy
use was to employ contract terms to augment trade secret protection
in order to protect against unauthorized copying at a time when,
first, the existence of a copyright in computer programs was
doubtful, and, later, when the extent to which copyright provided
protection was uncertain. (See Rice Decl. ¶ 6.) Computer program
copy use “licensing” continued after federal courts interpreted the
Copyright Act to provide substantial protection for computer
programs as literary works. (Id. at ¶ 7.) In Step-Saver Data
Systems, Inc. v. Wise Technology, the Third Circuit examined the
historical development of the use of licensing in the software
industry and concluded that subsequent changes to the Copyright Act
had rendered the need to characterize the transaction as a license
“largely anachronistic.” 939 F.2d 91, 96 n.7 (3d Cir. 1991).10

Furthermore..

In Novell, a software manufacturer was
pursuing a discount retailer for copyright infringement. Like
Adobe, CPU argued that it purchased the software from an authorized
source and was entitled to resell it under the first sale doctrine.
Novell claimed that it did not sell software but merely licensed it
to distribution partners. The court held that these transactions
constituted sales and not a license, and therefore that the first
sale doctrine applied. 2000 U.S. Dist. Lexis 9975 at *18.

Want more?

 

[Tobor]

Sure. The problem for them in the transition -- if their aim is to eventually be all DD all the time -- is that they're fighting a battle where it's difficult to convince consumers that DD is the superior option. CDs were replaced for music thanks to the emergence of the MP3 player. DD works for PCs because consumers have been trained for years to realize that the value is typically in the activation keys, making the discs practically worthless in their own right aside from being a means to an end (installing the game on my machine).

If things stayed exactly as they are right this very second, save for the fact that all retail games show up on XBLA and PSN as well, what's my argument for convincing people that DD is the superior way to purchase games?

They're making progress, but they still have a LONG way to go.

We basically agree, but the market is not a vacuum. You don't have to convince people over and over again. Once someone has switched over one medium, they will be far more receptive to switching others. Netflix is rapidly changing it's timeframe on switching over because the customers are moving faster than they anticipated, for example. Amazon is one or two more price cuts away from an explosion on Kindle uptake. The pace is starting to pick up on all fronts.

 

[Mailenstein]

That is a terrible idea. I know there are a couple of examples of this, but it's still lame. So, not only am I wasting my time driving to the store to buy the game, but I then have to go home and waste more time actually acquiring the data? What a horrible compromise.

Seriously, I can already download 5 gigs in an hour with my bandwith atm. Just imagine bandwidh in 10 years. It's not such a big deal. Think about it.
The idea I'm having might be a well off, but there could be some kind of preorder download where you can download, let's say 3/4, and the leftover 1/4 when you buy the code. So you won't need to wait that long if that is such an issue. Crazy ideas, I know, but who knows...

 

[Steve Youngblood]

We basically agree, but the market is not a vacuum. You don't have to convince people over and over again. Once someone has switched over one medium, they will be far more receptive to switching others. Netflix is rapidly changing it's timeframe on switching over because the customers are moving faster than they anticipated, for example. Amazon is one or two more price cuts away from an explosion on Kindle uptake. The pace is starting to pick up on all fronts.

Which brings me to another point. The two things you mention are aided by one of two things: small file sizes (e-books), or the ability to be streamed. I can have a book on my Kindle much, much faster than I can go to the book store, and I can have a movie streaming to my TV right this second (again more convenient than going to the video store or waiting for the disc to ship in the mail).

Games, or at least full retail ones, are handicapped right now by large file sizes and the lack of streaming. DD should satisfy an "instant gratification" demand for consumers. With gamers, that's only really possible if you just have a blazing fast connection.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Seriously, I can already download 5 gigs in an hour with my bandwith atm. Just imagine bandwidh in 10 years. It's not such a big deal. Think about it.
The idea I'm having might be a well off, but there could be some kind of preorder download where you can download, let's say 3/4, and the leftover 1/4 when you buy the code. So you won't need to wait that long if that is such an issue. Crazy ideas, I know, but who knows...

I would just much rather be able to download the data at a cheaper price than the box copy, and have the option to order in the physical niceties optionally at an additional cost (which I will opt not to do since I don't care about the stuff).

If I'm buying into the notion of digital distribution, I want the physical store out of the equation. One of the advantages of downloading stuff is NOT having to leave the house, not "now you get to do both!"

 

[gamergirly]

The more I read about DD the more I hate the shit.Haven't bought any DD games nor DLC never will unless free stuff is given then I do but otherwise never. Box copy or NO Copy for me.

I think it's going to be like music CDs with mp3s. The only time you're going to buy a game "disc" is for the artwork/covers/illustrations. Which you can get online or use software to print the labels. Everything game related will be virtual. Kinda like the Netflix movie selection, there will be games displayed in a virtual catalogue instead. Will be a hard change not having physical copies but it's eventually going to happen.

 

[speculawyer]

Seriously, I can already download 5 gigs in an hour with my bandwith atm. Just imagine bandwidh in 10 years.

Well, we hit a plateau. DSL & cable were the low-hanging fruit. Faster speeds will generally require more build-out that service providers hate doing unless they can be assured a pay-back.

AT&T U-verse is a nice new limited build-out. (Fiber to local neighborhood nodes and then high-speed DSL from houses to the neighborhood node due to its short distance.)

And pure fiber is even better but build-outs are limited except in very dense population zones like big cities.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Seriously, I can already download 5 gigs in an hour with my bandwith atm.

So can I, but you and I happen to be on really good providers. The majority of the country doesn't have that kind of speed. Plus there's a collection of stores 1.5 miles from my house. I can be to the store, buy what I want and be home playing the game in 15 minutes. That's my situation though and not everyone's in the country.

Just imagine bandwidh in 10 years. It's not such a big deal. Think about it.

It really depends on providers and pricing. Right now from my provider you can get 100+ mb/s but if I remember its close to 100 bucks a month. I get around 35 mb/s for like 40 bucks a month. My friend in the county next to mine is lucky if he gets 12 mb/s and pays 50 bucks a month. There's a lot of inconsistencies in bandwidth across the country. In 10 years it could be better, but it could also be way more expensive. Alot of ISPs want bandwidth caps, or want to start charging by how much you download. How many people are going to want DD on 50gb games when they have to pay for every meg downloaded?

 

[Tobor]

Which brings me to another point. The two things you mention are aided by one of two things: small file sizes (e-books), or the ability to be streamed. I can have a book on my Kindle much, much faster than I can go to the book store, and I can have a movie streaming to my TV right this second (again more convenient than going to the video store or waiting for the disc to ship in the mail).

Games, or at least full retail ones, are handicapped right now by large file sizes and the lack of streaming. DD should satisfy an "instant gratification" demand for consumers. With gamers, that's only really possible if you just have a blazing fast connection.

Three options here. A change in content(smaller games, episodic games), a change in delivery method(Steam style pre-downloads, smart downloads(being able to start playing a game while the rest downloads)), or streaming(On live). Personally I think we'll see a combination of all three.

 

[Draft]

Disc media died.

Luddites cried.

See you in the future, cavemen.

 

[Stinkles]

I will never buy a console that is downloads only.

What if it's a solid state UltraDreamcast?

 

[Scrubking]

I'll quote some case law..

Historically, the purpose of “licensing” computer program copy
use was to employ contract terms to augment trade secret protection
in order to protect against unauthorized copying at a time when,
first, the existence of a copyright in computer programs was
doubtful, and, later, when the extent to which copyright provided
protection was uncertain. (See Rice Decl. ¶ 6.) Computer program
copy use “licensing” continued after federal courts interpreted the
Copyright Act to provide substantial protection for computer
programs as literary works. (Id. at ¶ 7.) In Step-Saver Data
Systems, Inc. v. Wise Technology, the Third Circuit examined the
historical development of the use of licensing in the software
industry and concluded that subsequent changes to the Copyright Act
had rendered the need to characterize the transaction as a license
“largely anachronistic.” 939 F.2d 91, 96 n.7 (3d Cir. 1991).10

Furthermore..

In Novell, a software manufacturer was
pursuing a discount retailer for copyright infringement. Like
Adobe, CPU argued that it purchased the software from an authorized
source and was entitled to resell it under the first sale doctrine.
Novell claimed that it did not sell software but merely licensed it
to distribution partners. The court held that these transactions
constituted sales and not a license, and therefore that the first
sale doctrine applied. 2000 U.S. Dist. Lexis 9975 at *18.

Want more?

Thank you for this. It deserves to be quoted even though few are going to bother reading it.

One reason the videogame industry is so brazen with their DD future is because up till now they've gone unchallenged. The day will come when they try to put their master plan into effect and someone will finally stand up to have the courts put the videogame industry in their place.

 

[Vlightray]

I think it's going to be like music CDs with mp3s. The only time you're going to buy a game "disc" is for the artwork/covers/illustrations. Which you can get online or use software to print the labels. Everything game related will be virtual. Kinda like the Netflix movie selection, there will be games displayed in a virtual catalogue instead. Will be a hard change not having physical copies but it's eventually going to happen.

Music tho is fine it's just sound. But Picture and Sound I want physical media my house would suck without a huge collection that you feel you own. The ownership feeling DD can't give.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Three options here. A change in content(smaller games, episodic games), a change in delivery method(Steam style pre-downloads, smart downloads(being able to start playing a game while the rest downloads)), or streaming(On live). Personally I think we'll see a combination of all three.

Sure, and that's why the first two work well on the PC. But for console owners used to physical ownership and the benefits therein (trade-ins, taking over to a friend's, lending out, etc.), this doesn't help. The third is also a ways off in my opinion.

 

[LCfiner]

"Burning"? Is that some cockney slang?

Sinking, dying, fading . . . but burning? Sounds hot.

I read it as a physical platform which is burning and will be turned to ash soon.

it’s an awkward phrase, to be sure.

 

[lowrider007]

What about this chap,

I've got a few games, and a couple of other software apps, I'd really LIKE to resell, but since the online codes are locked to a central server, and a new customer could not get their own account to use and update the software, i can't resell it...

I'm not talking about MMOs, which to my view ARE licneses (since they hav recurring and continual fees for access), I'm talking about things like Diablo II, Neverwinter Nights, Quickbooks, applications that require the creation of an e-mail or logon based account for which the username can not be changed once registered, and for which they do not approve the transfer of the account.

Why has the law not came down on the companies that have these kinds of practices that are common with PC games and applications ?, are you guys saying that these company's are breaking the law (US) with their strict DRM policies ?

 

[Tobor]

Sure, and that's why the first two work well on the PC. But for console owners used to physical ownership and the benefits therein (trade-ins, taking over to a friend's, lending out, etc.), this doesn't help. The third is also a ways off in my opinion.

Which leads us back to the Trojan Horse MS and Sony have been wheeling into our living rooms inch by inch.

We're talking about a 10 year window, anyway. A sea change in bandwidth is a certainty in that time.

 

[poppabk]

I never said I owned the license to the game/movie and wanted to charge people to play a copy of my game or watch a copy of my movie. My point is I can do pretty much anything I want with my game or movie (barring charging people, which I was never arguing for in the first place, anyways) because I own that physical copy. If I want to loan my game to a friend of mine, I can. If I want to take my movie over to a friend of mine’s house and watch it, I can.

But as you even said, DRM prevents you from doing that with a DD copy. So no, physical media and DD are not the same in that regards.

But DRM can prevent you doing it with a disk version as well, it hasn't happened on consoles yet, but it is certainly possible. Likewise DD doesn't have to be protected by DRM, and can be amenable to permanent copies. The only difference is the protection provided by the DVD drive, which can allow only official copies to be played.

 

[kodt]

I am fine with DD but we need to ability to transfer content licenses and make backups. I should be able to sell my Steam games to other steam accounts for any amount I want. Or if Steam doesn't want to deal with the financial part of it (which is understandable) I should be able to send my game to another account and then it removes it from my account.

Ideally all digital content would be 100% DRM free. Of course piracy would be extremely easy then. But 100% DRM free is the only fully consumer friendly model. As long as you make a backup of your game you will always be able to install and play it with or without an internet connection, with or without the service you purchased the game from, and you can still use it if the company goes under and all of their servers blow up. You can also sell it to someone else (although that's on the honor system I guess).

What I fear is that everything will become subscription based. You will pay a monthly fee for the service. You will then buy game licenses which let you access the game online for somewhere between 1-5 years. This would likely cost $30-50. You can renew your license for full cost. This way you never own the game, but just "rent" it for a while. Then once the internet infrastructure is there services like OnLive will be normal for consoles. You will only be streaming a rendered video of the game so piracy will be impossible. Playing will be completely dependent on the internet connection, the service being up, and your having paid a subscription fee.

 

[soul creator]

on a related note, I'm surprised more industries don't lobby harder for improved broadband infrastructure. Seems like it would be in their benefit to push for something like that, even if Verizon/AT&T/TWC don't like it.

Then again, it would be in most businesses' benefit to lobby for government health care, but that doesn't seem to happen either...

 

[poppabk]

Thank you for this. It deserves to be quoted even though few are going to bother reading it.

One reason the videogame industry is so brazen with their DD future is because up till now they've gone unchallenged. The day will come when they try to put their master plan into effect and someone will finally stand up to have the courts put the videogame industry in their place.

But this doesn't apply to DRM. It doesn't matter if you completely own the software on the disk if it requires authentication from a server to operate and will only authenticate once per copy. The quoted legislation says nothing about this and the DMCA is pretty clear that circumvention of DRM is not allowed in nearly all circumstances.

 

[TAJ]

I always figured MS would test the water with a stripped down Arcade 360 that has DD only that was PURELY for Arcade, On Demand and Xbox Originals with like a 1 or 2TB HDD.

Sell Download cards at retail, and it gives them another presence in the market.

I doubt they'll do it, but I thought they MIGHT since it wouldn't cost them that much.

That's just stunningly dumb. You'd eliminate the DVD-ROM drive but add terabytes of extra HDD space to save money? Then you'd cut off most of the market for your games by leaving the drive out.

What I don't understand is how anyone can look at all the trending and the vast changes that have occurred since the launch of the 360 and not see the inevitable conclusion.

I've spent about $800 worth of points on XBLM. (I "only" paid about $500 for those points, but MS doesn't know that.) If they look at my purchasing habits and assume that I'd welcome a DD-only console, they're sadly mistaken.