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Peter Moore likes Wii controller! (but no word on 360 remote yet)
- Thread starter jko
- Start date
Perhaps. I would more call it a case of Sony doing everything right. Sony did alot of things not only right with the PS2, they did it perfectly.inthezone said:
Gaming goes in cycles, as do peoples tastes. Bieng trendy one day,does not mean your trendy the next. There are alot of failec companies who were hot shit one second, and grasping at straws the next.
The videogame biusness seems completly different from other biusness's who fight for marketshare like Coke/Pepsi. They dont releases a brand new version of thier Soda every 5 years.
Its awesome is all im saying. Everyone starts at 0 units sold, and it goes from there. ONE hot game can catapult you into the stratosphere.
Exciting stuff.
soundwave05
Member
arne said:
No one gets any audience without earning it.
I think Sony/MS would like to take some risks with their hardware, but they just won't do it until someone else does, unless it's in the relam of combining some type of PC/electronics functionality into a console.
If it's that, then Sony/MS are all over it.
Nintendo's place in the industry is more important now than ever with Sega gone IMO. There needs to be a company that's willing to think outside of the box for the good of the entire business. Otherwise things will get too unbalanced.
Just like the arcade business ... hardcore players loved fighters and racers, but arcade game makers didn't make any more games that could appeal to anyone but that demographic. And when that demographic dried up, so did the arcade business.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
loosus said:
....You think that fewer DVD players would be sold if there were fewer companies making them?
DVD ownership is a legitimate, mainstream hobby. People aren't buying a Samsung DVD player because they are in love with Samsung, they are doing it because they want to buy DVDs. If Samsung magically disappeared, they'd buy a Toshiba instead.
This has nothing to do with the number of video game hardware manufacturers and everythign to do with the typical person's lack of interest in video gaming.
This is a fact. Now, whether you think fewer buttons will actually change the mainstream attitude towards gaming is an open debate.
Chris Remo
Member
Well, one guy doesn't speak for the whole forum.arne said:
Consoles are on the cusp of bieng mainstream. Mainstrem to me implies that everyone in the family, and everyone across all regions knows what they are, and have played them.BigBoss said:
TV is mainstream, DVD players are, movies, Low-carb diets, e.t.c. I bet you can ask 100random people on the street if they have ever heard about the atkins diet, or the xbox and you'll get more poeple who say atkins.
Videogame news is also not on the nightly news, like box office reciepts, and are treated as a childish form of entertaiment instead of mainstream.
Its close, but i'll have to agree with Soundwave. Put it this way, everyone knows that there is a new superman movie coming out. How many of those same people know about a new nintendo system coming out?
AdmiralViscen
Banned
rafman400 said:
If a hobby/behavior isn't typical, it's not mainstream.
Thanks for playing.
Yes, DVD players would almost certainly sell fewer units if fewer companies made them, because there would be fewer choices (especially in the budget market).AdmiralViscen said:
You're also neglecting the fact that DVDs can be played on any DVD player.
And like I said, you're also comparing the ENTIRE DVD player market to Sony. Compare the top DVDN manufacturer to the top videogame manufacturer.
Honestly, your comparison just doesn't make sense.
Chris Remo said:
I'm not debating the whole forum... I was just trying to point out that it seems that nintendo also has challenges to win the mainstream audience and that absolute statement he made was just a little off. Just as with any new radical change, it's going to take a little bit of convincing before people approach it with more open arms.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
loosus said:
You didnt' say anything about price, you spoke only of manufacturing. You could have 3 DVD manufacturers that could cover the whole spectrum of pricing and features we have today, and they'd sell just as much.
You aren't talking about the same thing I am.
THE COMPARISON IS BETWEEN TWO FORMS OF DIGITAL ENTERTAINMENT. One is clearly mainstream. The other is only thought to be mainstream by people who are in it. 180M sales (PS2 + XBox + Cube + Dreamcast) in the span of 8 years is not mainstream compared to other forms of entertainment. I'm making sense, you're just not listening.
rafman400 said:
People. In general. Look up "typical" in the dictionary.
I think you should just ignore soundwave05, to be honest. He seems to have his dick in his hand while he praises Nintendo.arne said:
Gaming is definitely mainstream. If you don't think so, I'm certainly not going to argue with you about it because it's extremely obvious.AdmiralViscen said:
Chris Remo
Member
I completely agree, I was just pointing out that you were comparing one person's statements about Nintendo with a thread started by and posted in by other people.arne said:
arne said:
arne, Nintendo is the most predominately faith based organization known to mankind. It has more dedicated and hardcore fanatics than the entire Roman Catholic church combined. It doesn't need solid third party support or anything like that, it just needs Mario and Zelda and Nintendogs. Because Nintendo has always had successful handhelds - and the latest is successful too - their paradigm shift in the industry means everyone, including dead dogs, ferets and homeless people want to join the fun. Brain Training and, by extension, sports games with waggle are what non-gamers have been waiting for their entire life. It is not, in fact, that games just don't appeal to them on any level. It is not the fact that games are fundamentally toys, and movies and television aren't. No, it's because they were not free to swing their arms wide with all the child-like joy of retardism.
No, a system with 100,000,000 units sold or an industry with over 280,000,000 units sold this past gen ~ including handhelds - with average business totalling over $11,000,000,000 (topping movie box-office sales and siphoning television viewers) - is not yet mainstream.
You must believe, arne. This stuff takes faith.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
loosus said:
I could bring a DVD to someone's house, and they would almost definitely have the equipment to play it, and would almost definitely be open to the idea of watching it.
I can bring a game (and to account for the 3 platforms we have today, I could bring all three versions of it) to someone's house, and they would have a much lower chance of having a console, and of being open to the idea of playing it.
The games market is larger than it used to be, but it is still catering to a particular niche. It is not mainstream.
purnoman3000
Member
Moore's daughter must be retarded..... I'd bang her.
AdmiralViscen said:
It's mainstream. It's about as mainstream as could possibly be.
Do you wanna know why DVDs and TV are MORE mainstream? Because they're not toys. Games are TOYS. And that's all they ever will be to the vast majority of people.
arne said:oh forgive me father for I have sinned, it has been 11,010 days since my last confession.
liar, you don't even go to church!
soundwave05 said:
They're all shitting their pants. There is a market to lose here. You don't think Nintendo is shitting their pants right now? The Wii could very well be a failure. There is a risk. Innovation does not always equate success.
Sony has been copying their way in the industry for a decade and now we're all complaining? You could say MS took the idea of the 2 packs from Sony too. The Japanese PSP launch saw 2 PSP packs, that was a year before the X360 hit the market. We shouldn't act as if the "2 packs" strategy is recent.
The E3 conference was a bust yeah. But like Moore said "Winning E3 is overrated", yeah it may sound dumb but its true. Nintendo "won" several E3 yet you don't see the GC at the top of the charts, do you?. Winning E3 is just important to the hardcore gamers, to the casuals E3 is far from being a household name.
My only complain is that people in the forum, especially Ninfans, believe gaming is not mainstream when in fact it is.
Sure is not in the same league as, say, the mainstream popularity of water! But to say it isn't an accepted and widely recognized form of entertainemeent is retarded.
Then we can all say that even the Ipod isn't mainstream.
Plz....
soundwave05
Member
Amir0x said:
People always use numbers like this.
Why don't we compare global box office for five years and DVD player + DVD disc sales over a five year period and compare, shall we?
moku said:
You don't honestly believe that do you? otherwise your jaw-droppingly naive. Theres a reason why the X360's fortune in Japan is so dire, and thats because its riding the 'success' of its little brother over there. The same can be said for the flipside, with it riding high and gaining marketshare from the people it 'claimed' with the Xbox.
Playstation is a household name, and so many sales will be picked up from that. People are completely wrong when they say gaming is 'on the cusp of mainstream', especially then going on to say mainstream would be getting our parents and grandparents to play. How absurd. The young adult bracket makes the decisions for the future, not those already set in their ways and adverse to electronic entertainment already. And almost every young adult has played video games these days and continues to do so even after getting a job and moving out.
I know its an exciting time to be a ninthing, but really, lets that get carried away with this madness. Things aint starting at '0', no matter how conveniant that'd be for you NPD maniacs. Nintendo is coming in from placing 3rd, and I pretty much expect them to stay in that position.
On topic: MOORE STOP SHOWING WEAKNESS. It sickens me! Stick to your guns and dont pander to this "too many buttons" nonsense. Slap your daughter and tell her she's a retard if the x360 controller confuses her!
AdmiralViscen
Banned
loosus said:
Crack open your local newspaper. Compare the size of the movie section to the size of the game section.
Turn on your TV. More people watch Roger Ebert's show than watch anything on G4. If you don't get the SPECIAL, NICHE G4 channel, you aren't going to be watching any video game shows.
Oh, except for SpikeTV's game awards, which are dwarfed by pretty much any movie award show. And SpikeTV is itself a niche channel.
Bust out your Game Boy on the subway and compare it to how many people are reading books.
Go to an adult party with Halo 2 and see how many people are interested in playing it, or even know how to hold a controller.
Compare competitive video gaming to televised sports, even the low-interest ones.
There are clearly two distinct levels of popular interest here.
Amir0x said:
Thanks for agreeing.
Amir0x said:
You're right on that part. DVDs and TV have reached this level of pervasive ubiquitousness in society. Even if it's not true, it's almost like, "you can't live a complete life if you don't have a TV and a DVD player at home." And it's an understood "necessity" for the vast majority of people who aren't despondent in the economical sense.
Video games have yet to reach that level despite the massive amount of money coming in and massive amount of product being bought. I think we need to come up with a new term, clearly the "games" in video games is what's doing it. It's up to you GAF to come up with a new vocabulary for this hobby of ours!
Amir0x said:
Add up the days...
AdmiralViscen
Banned
loosus said:
Their particular niche (children) absolutely loves them, and probably can't imagine how anyone could be disinterested in playing with them.
Bring your Beast Wars toy to the office and see what the reaction is.
Pick the most acceptable/successful phrase to say on a Friday night:
"Hey, let's go see a Spider-Man 2."
"Hey, let's go play Grand Theft Auto."
"Hey, let's go play with Legos."
There are large number of people who would like to do numbers 2 and 3, but the most universally appealing (aka typical, aka mainstream, what have you) is the first.
There is a very, very large market out there that has NOT been tapped into yet. The question isn't whether that market exists, it's whether any video game company will ever be able to crack it.
soundwave05 said:
I'm sorry, first of all movie box office sales are not the same as DVD sales. Games, unlike movies and music, don't have 'theatres' or 'concerts' to display their products in... inherently, it will always be inferior overall when you compare every single aspect of the respective markets. And as you know, arcades are almost totally dead in the states - nor do arcades accurately reflect what's coming out to consoles product wise.
so the point is moot. The simple indisputable fact is that games are mainstream, and good ol' Nintendo finally has to catch up and be mainstream themselves now. But it's ok, soundwave05, according to you that will be extremely simple for them with Wii. Since it's MICROSOFT and SONY who want the mainstream - not Nintendo - it would indicate Nintendo already owns that spectacular market. In that case, I wouldn't be surprised to see them selling 200,000,000 units by the end of the first year!
arne said:
Shit, 11,000 days seems so short for some reason. God life is short :lol
Chris Remo
Member
Amir0x said:
That's not true at all. Look how much the perception of games has already changed in the last 10-15 years. It's ridiculous to think that in coming decades, it won't continue to change. Hell, look at practically any other new form of entertainment. Even the novel, when it was first coming to prominence, was seen as frivolous and not deserving of respect.
Kobun Heat
Member
Don't tell your bosses that you think that. The reason you have a job is because people high up the food chain at Microsoft believe that interactive entertainment is ready to grow and expand out of the games-as-toys mindset.arne said:
Amir0x is half right; games are perceived as toys now, but "that's all they will ever be"? No serious person who understands the nature of media truly thinks that.
Chris Remo said:
Who said games perception wouldn't change? I simply said the reason they will never reach movie/TV status is because games are toys - that aspect will never change. How much the toys are popular will change, but you can decide whatever label you want for them but that's the defining difference. That's why, in reality, the grandmas and Velocity girls and dead dogs won't ever want to play games - it's not appealing to them. They're toys.
Kobun Heat said:
Games are not like other media, though. I think people who constantly try to make them analgous are the ones who will inevitably fall flat. And calling it a 'toy' is not an insult, it's just the nature of what we do. It's never gonna be as big as TVs and Movies.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
I think the common perception of games is more likely to change when people who grew up on PlayStation are raising their own kids than by any radical shift by manufacturers/developers in the next 5 years.
Kobun Heat
Member
You can say it over and over, but it doesn't make you correct. I don't see any reason why the addition of interactivity to a storytelling medium automatically makes it a toy.
200,000,000? That's not mainstream! The current population is about 6.5 billion, so 200 million would only be about 3% of the population!Amir0x said:
Clearly not mainstream!
Don't tell your bosses that you think that. The reason you have a job is because people high up the food chain at Microsoft believe that interactive entertainment is ready to grow and expand out of the games-as-toys mindset.
And you do, of course. I wish I were in the know like you.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
Amir0x said:
This isn't even about Wii.
Kobun Heat
Member
So when I said Microsoft, you read Nintendo?Amir0x said:
Starts to explain things.
Chris Remo
Member
Amir0x said:
Game retail sales are even less similar to box office sales, but you seem perfectly happy to compare those. You want to compare a $10 movie ticket to a game that costs two, three, four, five, or even six times as much as that? Those figures are meaningless. Even the president of the Entertainment Software Industry has admitted that, despite how often people love to trot them out. It's arguable whether gaming is "mainstream," but no matter how you slice it, there's a LONG way to go. Neither of my parents could name a single video game, outside of maybe "Mario" or possibly "Grand Theft Auto." Most of my friends don't play video games, and my job is writing about video games. All of them watch movies. All of them read books. All of them watch television. All of them listen to music. There's a huge, huge, huge difference.
Amir0x said:
Nope, that's simply not true. Whether something is a "toy" is entirely a matter of perception. People here can't even decide what to count as a "game," and now you're saying that the whole world already has a set in stone definition of what a game is that's going to endure for all time? That's absurd.
Books have NOTHING in common with music, but they're both hugely, hugely popular. One requires mental activity to experience, one doesn't (though both can). One is generally narrative, one isn't. One is generally experienced in its entirety in an hour or less, one can take anywhere from a day to months. One requires some level of education to experience, one doesn't. One requires special equipment to experience, one doesn't. One must be experienced in a particular organized fashion to comprehend, one mustn't. Yet the audiences for both are absolutely enormous and have a huge degree of overlap.
AdmiralViscen said:
no, it's about Nintendo opening the floodgates to the totally non-mainstream videogame market.
now that it's glossy and iPod like, within the next generation the thin veil of 'videogames as toys' will gently pass away, catapulting it to heaven status
only things that look like iPods are mainstream
AdmiralViscen
Banned
loosus said:
Chris Remo said:
I bolded the correct parts.
Amir0x said:
Here:
AdmiralViscen said:
You are the one making this about Wii and Nintendo, not the people who are arguing against the notion of games having achieved mainstream appeal.
Chris Remo said:
Of course you can't directly compare them, but it's the closest analog we have. And of course, my parents can't name that shit either - just like they sure as hell can't name the latest line of malibu barbie.
AdmeralViscen said:
The initial response was to soundwave05, clearly your statement is very little to do with most of what I've commented on atm.
I agree. How anyone can agrue this is beyond me. Bineg mainstream, means that mainstream society knows about vieogames, knows who makes them, they play them, e.t.c.Chris Remo said:
This argument would make more sense if we knew what market your talking about.
If videogames cant get more mainstream as someone put it, explain Japan? They are a HELL OF ALOT more mainstream in Japan then in the United States.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
Amir0x said:
At the moment, this is what you're commenting on, and what I was quoting:
Amir0x said:
Putting on Rescue Me now. You guys can go back to talking to your parents and grandparents about who's going to preorder Super Paper Mario and MGS4 (less so Amir0x).