Support NeoGAF

[Asuterisuku]

Hi,

I'm editor for an italian website, www.multiplayer.it, and i'm bothering you to ask for your support for a petition that we are carrying out against a new law being studied in Italy, which would strongly affect the italian players.

This is no spam, no shit, no strange promotion, all the italian players really need any kind of support. I'd like to remark that this could affect all the european players, in a near future.

We are looking for maximum spread, below an excerpt from the petition:

"The Law Proposal No 3014 in the field of protection of minors in film and video games, currently under examination by the Commissione Cultura della Camera, proposed to create a National Committee with the task of "undersign" the classification given by the videogame Europe-wide system PEGI.

Italy could so become the only country in Europe where a system of double evaluation of videogames is imposed.

The Law could have two consequences:

1. Italian players discrimination than Europeans, needlessly extending the time in which games would be released, not just the "controversial" ones because the procedure of registration and national reclassification is scheduled for all releases without distinctions;

2. Could endanger the same protection of minors, because the procedure would encourage piracy, especially on the Internet, and the resort to parallel imports - perfectly legal - from other European countries which do not have this double control system. "

Link to the petition page and info: http://www.multiplayer.it/petizione/
press:
http://www.meristation.com/v3/des_noticia.php?id=cw47871c182ca92&pic=GEN

http://vitadigitale.corriere.it/

Sorry for my awful english and thank you for your time and attention.

Ludovica Lagomarsino

 

[PuppetSlave]

Would the Italian government really care for a petition filled with signatures by a bunch of foreigners?

Don't think this will work too well, sorry.

 

[Tyrannical]

I thought Germany had their own system?

Don't you care enough to want to protect minors?

 

[Bliddo]

I thought Germany had their own system?

Don't you care enough to want to protect minors?

You don't know the fucktards that are governing Italy

 

[Asuterisuku]

we DO want to protect minors, we already have a rating system. We would like to see more support to this system and a law that allowes control over the sellers and the application of ratings, not a stupid over-system that will only boost piracy and, in fact, expose more minors to unligit contents.

 

[Koren]

and the resort to parallel imports - perfectly legal - from other European countries which do not have this double control system.

Just a side question... Is it, really ? There's a lot of special rules for importing this kind of products (and even if it's possible, should a game be completely banned, I think the import is also illegal).

On the subject itself, I also think it's rather a matter of supporting (and enforcing) existing rating systems, or changing them, rather than multiplying measures that have no real effect.

 

[Asuterisuku]

I also think it's rather a matter of supporting (and enforcing) existing rating systems, or changing them, rather than multiplying measures that have no real effect.

That's the point.

 

[Jonsend]

Would the Italian government really care for a petition filled with signatures by a bunch of foreigners?

Don't think this will work too well, sorry.

Just put Mario instead of your real name, no one will notice.

 

[Walshicus]

"In Cinetheque SA v. Federation Nationale des Cinemas Francais case , the facts were that French law banned for sale of rental of videos of films during the first year in which the film was shown. This law applied equally to domestic and imported videos. The video-cassette distributors challenged the law as a violation of Article 30(now 28). The ECJ held that Article 30(now 28) of the EEC Treaty must be interpreted as meaning that it does not apply to national legislation which regulates the distribution of cinematographic works by imposing an interval between one mode of distributing such works and another by prohibiting their simultaneous exploitation in cinemas and in video-cassette form for a limited period, provided that the prohibition applies to domestically produced and imported cassettes alike and any barriers to intra-Community trade to which its implementation may give rise do not exceed what is necessary for ensuring that the exploitation in cinemas of cinematographic works of all origins retains priority over other means of distribution."

That's the most relevant information I can find at the moment.

 

[Mr YuYu]

Could this be against the EU law? There is this thing called free trade of goods in the EU and this Italian law could be seen as obstacle of trade.

(edit: Especially since there allready is an european rating system, this might be viewed as an obstacle of trade)

 

[nightside]

Would the Italian government really care for a petition filled with signatures by a bunch of foreigners?

Don't think this will work too well, sorry.

No..they won't for the sample reasone the won't even know that there's any kind of petition:lol

These days, the only way to make this turd government care about something is:

-making a strike that put the country on knees (like truck drivers did: few days and italy ran out of gas, food and medicinal)

-burn something (like the garbage burnt in naples)

soo sad.


BTW I think GAF should know WHY our "lovely" governent what to do ALL this.

Some months ago a magazine named "Panorama" published an article about Rule of Rose named "Vince chi seppellisce la bambine" which means "Who bury the little gir winsl", the fun part is that the article was totally wrong (who played RoR knows how the game works) probably because who wrote the article never played the game at all, basically he just did a copy/paste of an user review found on a gaming forum (forumgamesradar.futuregamer.it) and did a "lifting" to the all thing to make it look like the game is REALLY about killing little girls. A lot of politicians took that article for true and started all this. Well..the Manhunt 2 case helped a lot....


And btw, the entire law sounds just stupid, I hope some italian gaffer would translate in proper english and let GAF know...

 

[cedric69]

This is no spam, no shit, no strange promotion, all the italian players really need any kind of support. I'd like to remark that this could affect all the european players, in a near future.

... quite frankly I'm not so sure about this kind of "promotion". Because it is a very clever way of promoting one's site, no doubt.

Furthermore, you mention this being unique across Europe... did you conveniently forget about Germany maybe (incidentally the largest country in the EC)?

The PEGI system is flawed for one very simple reason. It has *no* legal value. No store can deny a kid his 18+ game by law. The PEGI system doesn't mean squat for the law.
It's just a set of suggestions, nothing more. Now, one could think it's fine and I might even agree. One could say it's parents responsibility to check on their young ones, and I would surely concur.

On the other hand, this media is going sometimes in extreme directions and burying our heads in the sand is not going to make that go away.
And not having a system with legal value keeps this media in a position very easy to attack by senators, newspapers and what not, in search for easy media exposure or extra copies sold.

 

[Walshicus]

There is ... no valid reason why, provided that they have been lawfully produced and marketed in one of the Member States, alcoholic beverages should not be introduced into any other Member State; the sale of such products may be subject to a legal prohibition on the marketing of beverages with an alcoholic content lower than the limit set by national rules.

In simple words, this principle provides that if a product meets the standards of Member State of export, that product should be regarded as meeting the standards of the Member State of import. This principle is also confirmed in Italy v. Nespoli and Others case. The ECJ in this case held that as a general rule, if the imports are lawfully manufactured and marketed in one Member State, they are entitled to enter another Member State without obstacles of quantitative restrictions and measures having an equivalent effect.

The ECJ also stressed this principle in Wood-working machines case, Commission v. France by holding that "a Member State is not entitled to prevent the marketing of a product originating in another Member State which provides a level of protection of health and life of humans equivalent to that which the national rules are intended to ensure or establish".

The second principle is the Rule of Reason. The ECJ in Cassis de Dijon held that in case of no Community legislation, the exceptions of the free movement of goods principle arising from the disparities of the national legislations must be accepted if those exceptions are necessary to satisfy mandatory requirements relating in particular to the effectiveness of fiscal supervision; the protection of public health; the fairness of commercial transactions; and the defense of the consumer.

This is also confirmed in the latter case. In German Sausages case, Commission v. Germany , the facts were German law prohibited the sale of sausages containing prohibiting additives in Germany. This law applied to both German products and products from other EC Member States, even though, the additives were not prohibited by the law of origin in Member State. The ECJ held that the ban was an unlawful restriction under Article 28(formerly 30) and could not justified under the rule of reason because consumers could be adequately protected by means of proper labeling of products.

More info.

 

[guidop]

Write a letter to your look member of parliament or go speak to them, you can do that in Australia. I thought Prodi was suppose to be better then Berlusconi?

 

[cedric69]

Could this be against the EU law? There is this thing called free trade of goods in the EU and this Italian law could be seen as obstacle of trade.

(edit: Especially since there allready is an european rating system, this might be viewed as an obstacle of trade)

Germany says hi...

 

[Walshicus]

Write a letter to your look member of parliament or go speak to them, you can do that in Australia. I thought Prodi was suppose to be better then Berlusconi?

He is... far better. But even though a politician can be superior to his predecesor in every matter that counts, doesn't mean that interest groups can't push through legislation that gamers find unattractive.

 

[Asuterisuku]

... quite frankly I'm not so sure about this kind of "promotion". Because it is a very clever way of promoting one's site, no doubt.

Is not.
Believe it or not

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Our politicians won't mind at all an online petition. And, frankly, Italy is so broken atm that I really don't mind if they hurt the gaming business. People will end up importing from Europe, wtithout giving moneys to SIAE too, and this can only be good.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Is not.
Believe it or not

If it wasn't you could have used one of the many independent online petition sites out there.

 

[TTP]

Our politicians won't mind at all an online petition. And, frankly, Italy is so broken atm that I really don't mind if they hurt the gaming business. People will end up importing from Europe, wtithout giving moneys to SIAE too, and this can only be good.

Quoted X10000

This is actually GOOD news :lol

 

[cedric69]

Is not.
Believe it or not

Ludovica, let's not fool around. If all you cared was the good of Italian videogame players you would have organized this petition together with other media outlets, both online and on paper. Instead one finds this petition on your website, clearly branded as an initiative by Multiplayer.it.

Which is understandable and clearly not "evil" at all. But it has obvious promotional repercussions, whether you realize it or not.

 

[Mr YuYu]

The second principle is the Rule of Reason. The ECJ in Cassis de Dijon held that in case of no Community legislation, the exceptions of the free movement of goods principle arising from the disparities of the national legislations must be accepted if those exceptions are necessary to satisfy mandatory requirements relating in particular to the effectiveness of fiscal supervision; the protection of public health the fairness of commercial transactions; and the defense of the consumer.

What kind of exception is this? Protection of public health?

 

[nightside]

Our politicians won't mind at all an online petition. And, frankly, Italy is so broken atm that I really don't mind if they hurt the gaming business. People will end up importing from Europe, wtithout giving moneys to SIAE too, and this can only be good.

I'm pretty curious to see what AESVI thinks about this law...basically the won't be able to advertise a game BEFORE it gets rated, and knowing Italian beurocracy times for doin ANYTHING, not only they won't able to put a game on shelves in time, they won't even be able to advertise it.

And a big question point will be: who will test and rate the game? someone who actualy KNOWS videogames, or just some fucktard from MOIGE and some politicians put there without any real reasons?

 

[Asuterisuku]

Ludovica, let's not fool around. If all you cared was the good of Italian videogame players you would have organized this petition together with other media outlets, both online and on paper. Instead one finds this petition on your website, clearly branded as an initiative by Multiplayer.it.

Which is understandable and clearly not "evil" at all. But it has obvious promotional repercussions, whether you realize it or not.

It is not.
I really don't care about such a controversy, by the way, i can only invite you all NOT TO SIGN the petition, we only want to raise public awarness of this issue.
I'd like to notice that m.it is an italian website. Written in italian, of course. Do you really think that i'm gaining only ONE SINGLE user from the international press or forums, who doesn't know a single italian word?
I really don't think so.

That's all folks

 

[cedric69]

It is not.
I really don't care about such a controversy, by the way, i can only invite you all NOT TO SIGN the petition, we only want to raise public awarness of this issue.
I'd like to notice that m.it is an italian website. Written in italian, of course. Do you really think that i'm gaining only ONE SINGLE user from the international press or forums, who doesn't know a single italian word?
I really don't think so.

You want to raise public awareness on international press and forums? What would be the outcome? Foreign pressure on your government? Are you deluded or what?

And as far as users gained or lost, we've already and recently had some threads here, with Italian readers only (they were even writing in Italian, for Pete's sake). One would expect hardcore gamers to be visiting foreign videogame forums and you know... opinion leaders, etc.

But again, you haven't touched upon my main concern: why is this initiative tied to a single media outlet? Furthermore, would this petition carry any sort of legal value, given that there's no proof of ID required?

 

[arhra]

Furthermore, you mention this being unique across Europe... did you conveniently forget about Germany maybe (incidentally the largest country in the EC)?

And the UK, as it's mandatory for videogames with certain themes to be submitted for a BBFC rating:

Under the Video Recordings Act, most video games are exempt from BBFC classification. However, they may lose this exemption - and therefore require a formal BBFC classification - if they depict, to any significant extent, gross violence against humans or animals, human sexual activity, human urinary or excretory functions or genital organs, or techniques likely to be useful in the commission of offences.

 

[cedric69]

And the UK, as it's mandatory for videogames with certain themes to be submitted for a BBFC rating:

:lol So it's just UK and Germany, the two largest videogames market in Europe, if I'm not mistaken...

 

[Asuterisuku]

They have THEIR OWN rating system, not TWO different rating systems

And btw, we never said that italy is the only country affected with censorship problems or whatsoever. We always gave our support and gave infos about the problems of the bbfc system, with the manhunt 2 controversy, for example, or the germany way of apply bans and censorship, or even the U.S. politics (jack thompson is the one, but not only the one).
So, do we have the right to talk and let talk about our country's problems, too?

 

[Arthas]

Let us hope the process of EU integration speeds up and Italy becomes a province subservient to EU laws regarding video games, and then let us hope those laws are more logical than this crap being proposed in Italy.

Petitioning the government is like protesting peacefully in the streets, it all falls on deaf ears.

 

[arhra]

They have THEIR OWN rating system, not TWO different rating systems

Games still have PEGI ratings here, if they're exempt from BBFC rating (and the body responsible for administering the PEGI ratings here in the UK is also the body that advises on whether or not a game needs to be referred to the BBFC).

We always gave our support and gave infos about the problems of the bbfc system

Except... it doesn't really have many problems, and is sometimes even beneficial, in that it results in a lower rating than PEGI would have granted (well, beneficial as long as you don't think that legally-enforcable ratings are fundamentally a Bad Thing(tm)). Their ratings diverge at times from the PEGI ratings (partly due to different age ranges - the BBFC scale is 12/15/18, whereas PEGI is 12/16/18, and partly due to differences of opinion and cultural standards), but it's not always a Manhunt 2 banning-type situation - to give an example of one ruling that went in completely the opposite direction, Mass Effect, which was given a PEGI 18 rating everywhere else in Europe, was passed with a BBFC 12 certificate here.

 

[cedric69]

And btw, we never said that italy is the only country affected with censorship problems or whatsoever.

I wasn't sure but... Google is telling me that you are in fact stating that Italy would be alone in having a double layered control system, which is simply untrue AFAIK.

L’Italia potrebbe diventare l’unico paese in Europa, dove viene imposto un macchinoso sistema di doppia valutazione dei giochi.

The Italy could become the only country in Europe where it is imposed a cumbersome system of double evaluation of the games.

 

[Neko]

I wasn't sure but... Google is telling me that you are in fact stating that Italy would be alone in having a double layered control system, which is simply untrue AFAIK.

L’Italia potrebbe diventare l’unico paese in Europa, dove viene imposto un macchinoso sistema di doppia valutazione dei giochi.

The Italy could become the only country in Europe where it is imposed a cumbersome system of double evaluation of the games.

Right on the spot, cedric69. They pulled this chain for so long now they don't even know what they're talking about anymore. That "petition", let's call it that way, is filled with such utter bullshit (and typos, WTF!) you wouldn't expect from someone who calls himself a "journalist".

Anyway, let's break it down:

the establishment of a national committee with the task to "countersign"

No one's asked to "countersign" anything, you fools, the committee will have the authority to ask PCB (PEGI Complaints Board) to re-evaluate the original rating.

Italy could become the only European country where it is enforced a cumbersome double evaluation system...

Wrong, UK and Germany are already doing this, and Finland too IIRC. At least check Wikipedia before polluting the Internet with your shameless self-promotion, thanks.

Oh, and good luck with your petition anyway, the signers list is filled with high profile signatures like "Super Sayan Goku" and "Sephirot", I'm sure your Government will feel totally owned when confronted with such eminent personalities supporting your "cause".