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[see5harp]

How about NOT requiring installs and once a game is installed, it HAS to be played from the disk.

or you know the fucking system that has worked for decades?

They made something more difficult and restrictive than it needs to be.

This system won't stop piracy...so the only people that are fucked are legit customers.
NO OTHER INDUSTRY DOES THIS.

I can borrow a book from a library, I can/use to rent movies...hell I can even do that DD now.

so why does Microsoft think they can fuck shit up with this garbage?

fuck

IF, it's as easy as a 24 hour period for license transfer for the disc ID, to be honest I'd honestly be fine with a required install where the disc sits in the case in the closet for the lifetime of the system. That would still keep Gamefly in business and for games that I feel are actually worth buying, I'd never have to use the disc ever again.

EDIT: and to the crazy dude. I don't think many people would have an issue with requiring online for license if it offered the convenience of never having to stick the disc into the drive again.

 

[RustySpoon]

Which serve no purpose other than to carry digital content.



Then kindly propose a solution to the problem that allows you to install games on your own hardware but doesn't allow people to go around installing the same games over and over on other peoples hardware.

How about a system where a game is registered to my account but I can go into my account profile and "unregister" it whenever I feel like so I can trade/loan/sell however I see fit.

I came up with that idea in about ten seconds. It's not rocket science.

 

[Bleedorang3]

Why the fuck would I sell the game when I still want to keep it and just want to lend it to him for a few weeks? I still like the game and would still like to replay it. WTF is this having to rebuy things that I own in the first place? Do you have no concept of friendship and how it actually works?

Then have him transfer the license back to you when you want to play it! Christ what is so difficult to understand? This actually saves you the trouble of driving back and forth to hand the disc off to each other!

Can someone else try with this guy? I'm baffled here.

 

[Bleedorang3]

I'll tell you again since you appear to ignore my posts. NO FUCKING WAY you'll be able to resell a game on the marketplace without them taking a fee.

I really really really doubt that. Maybe they'll have a feature called "lend" which is effectively a 0$ license transfer, and maybe it'll be timed. Like a 1,5,10,30 day lending period.

 

[Evolved1]

Then have him transfer the license back to you when you want to play it! Christ what is so difficult to understand? This actually saves you the trouble of driving back and forth to hand the disc off to each other!

Can someone else try with this guy? I'm baffled here.

The things you are saying do not reflect reality... you are pulling massive assumptions directly from your... well... it's wishful thinking to put it politely.

 

[ultron87]

Sigh. What is stopping you from selling your friend the game on the marketplace for $0?

I've seen no indication that this is an available option on this system. If it is it would solve the majority of problems I have with how this is currently proposed to work. The issue of game availability in the super long term remains, but at least I could transfer my games to friends that want to try the,

 

[Bleedorang3]

EDIT: and to the crazy dude. I don't think many people would have an issue with requiring online for license if it offered the convenience of never having to stick the disc into the drive again.

Did you SEE the Adam Orth thread? People nearly threw themselves out of windows in rage over a RUMOR of always online.

 

[Shahadan]

I really really really doubt that. Maybe they'll have a feature called "lend" which is effectively a 0$ license transfer, and maybe it'll be timed. Like a 1,5,10,30 day lending period.

If they're making you pay to play an used game they'll make you pay to resell it, unless they let you magically sell a key without taking any profit on it, but then they'll just make the buyer pay the same fee he would have paid for an used disc.
All of that is born from publisher wanting a piece of the used market. They won't let you sell a game for your own profit alone. If they did they would have already said so and not "details to be announced"

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

i didn't know that neogaf members are so good friends, they are all worry about their friends who can't play their games for free...fu*k my friends i work hard to pay for my games and i have to be angry because no one can't play it for free? i don't think so....

What worries me is that i cannot sell my games, i want to know about their new system to trade games or how to be able to sell it...

if i can sell my games at good prices well that's just fine for me...

You must be a very pleasant individual and a great friend.

 

[Knux-Future]

I really really really doubt that. Maybe they'll have a feature called "lend" which is effectively a 0$ license transfer, and maybe it'll be timed. Like a 1,5,10,30 day lending period.

and if they don't?

The system that is rumor requires you to either log into your friends account or for them to pay full price.

If there is no free option for lending...then what?

You are crazy if you think there won't be a cost.

 

[see5harp]

Then have him transfer the license back to you when you want to play it! Christ what is so difficult to understand? This actually saves you the trouble of driving back and forth to hand the disc off to each other!

Can someone else try with this guy? I'm baffled here.

The issue is that there is no indication that MS actually has and will implement some sort of user friendly license transferring solution. I don't think the issue is coming up with a solution. It's getting retailers, consumers, publishers and developers on board (not to mention coming up with the technical solution).

 

[Replicant]

Then have him transfer the license back to you when you want to play it! Christ what is so difficult to understand? This actually saves you the trouble of driving back and forth to hand the disc off to each other!

Can someone else try with this guy? I'm baffled here.

Why would I have to go through the extra step of selling the game when I can just give the disc to him? And you know, people *do* go to their friend's house to play game together and then leave the game if their friend likes it. That's the whole fucking point.

Yeah, you're making a lot of sense.

 

[Catchpenny]

To paraphrase Sarah Palin: So, how's that system accounty thing workin' for ya?

 

[Arkham]

I really really really doubt that. Maybe they'll have a feature called "lend" which is effectively a 0$ license transfer, and maybe it'll be timed. Like a 1,5,10,30 day lending period.

Oh, so effectively timed like a 1,5,10,30,perma ban period?

 

[rockman zx]

[*]If your friend wants to play this game without your login, he/she will need to pay for it full price.

[/LIST]

Fuck this shit.

 

[liquidtmd]

Then kindly propose a solution to the problem that allows you to install games on your own hardware but doesn't allow people to go around installing the same games over and over on other peoples hardware.

This is where I think the current system works well. Install to HDD, needs disc to boot.

I understand there's people who say 'but I don't want to change discs / I just want them on my HDD' but if getting up and taking 20 seconds to walk over and open a disc tray is the alternative to this clusterfuck, I'll take it.

Equally - the online verification system they're proposing could do this without being so disingenuous. The way Microsoft are fielding questions about this is just insane.

 

[Bleedorang3]

The things you are saying do not reflect reality... you are pulling massive assumptions directly from your... well... it's wishful thinking to put it politely.

They've already confirmed a user-driven resale market. The only thing I'm assuming is that there will be a 0$ license transfer option. Call it lending or just make 0$ the lowest price you can put for a resale either one serves the same purpose.

 

[see5harp]

Did you SEE the Adam Orth thread? People nearly threw themselves out of windows in rage over a RUMOR of always online.

There would be some people who wouldn't buy based on principle and would be mad. I'm not convinced those people couldn't be swayed ASSUMING there's some great reason to do it (like allowing people to install and run everything from the system).

a user controlled resale market sounds unbelievably stupid to me.

 

[Branduil]

The thread title should really be "Phil Harrison tries(again) to muddy the waters on used games." I've seen better clarity from politicians.

 

[Knux-Future]

They've already confirmed a user-driven resale market. The only thing I'm assuming is that there will be a 0$ license transfer option. Call it lending or just make 0$ the lowest price you can put for a resale either one serves the same purpose.

why do we have to jump through all of these hoops tho?

if they allow that...then why not just keep our current system?

 

[Bleedorang3]

Why would I have to go through the extra step of selling the game when I can just give the disc to him? And you know, people *do* go to their friend's house to play game together and then leave the game if their friend likes it. That's the whole fucking point.

Yeah, you're making a lot of sense.

Why would I go through the trouble of driving over to my friends house to give him the disc when I can just digitally transfer the license using some crazy lend button in the UI? It really is that simple. Honestly I'm not trying to troll you I'm just trying to bring some common sense into this discussion.

 

[Shahadan]

why do we have to jump through all of these hoops tho?

if they allow that...then why not just keep our current system?

Because they'll recieve a part of any transaction made on the market place. That's usually how a user driven marketplace works.

 

[Miles X]

IF, it's as easy as a 24 hour period for license transfer for the disc ID, to be honest I'd honestly be fine with a required install where the disc sits in the case in the closet for the lifetime of the system. That would still keep Gamefly in business and for games that I feel are actually worth buying, I'd never have to use the disc ever again.

EDIT: and to the crazy dude. I don't think many people would have an issue with requiring online for license if it offered the convenience of never having to stick the disc into the drive again.

Also, for games bought digitally, it wouldn't need to go online every 24 hours to continue to play them.

 

[Father_Brain]

They've already confirmed a user-driven resale market. The only thing I'm assuming is that there will be a 0$ license transfer option. Call it lending or just make 0$ the lowest price you can put for a resale either one serves the same purpose.

We'll see, but I don't see any way that allowing consumers to determine trade/resale value wouldn't be completely at odds with their other decisions on the used game issue.

 

[lenovox1]

Of course it is. I imagine it was to PC gamers as well.

The difference being that there is a law restricting what we can and cannot do with computer software.

The same cannot be said for video game software.

http://www.copyright.gov/reports/software_ren.html

What Microsoft is doing is shifty as hell.

 

[jackal27]

Whelp, renting games is out of the question then. Fun!

 

[Bleedorang3]

why do we have to jump through all of these hoops tho?

if they allow that...then why not just keep our current system?

Because its more modern. If my buddy already has the bits on the system why should I need to drive over and give him the disc when I could just hit a 'Lend Game' button in the UI that transfers the license?

Give us time limits: 1, 5, 10, 30 days. And let us set prices on it, all the way down to 0$ boom Gamefly still exists

 

[Replicant]

Why would I go through the trouble of driving over to my friends house to give him the disc when I can just digitally transfer the license using some crazy lend button in the UI? It really is that simple. Honestly I'm not trying to troll you I'm just trying to bring some common sense into this discussion.

Because half of the time, I actually play games with my friend/bring games that I'd recommend to him. And then he'd either say "Never mind, I'd buy it myself/never mind it sucks" or "Hey, mind if I try it for a few days?". I know! What a shocking concept! And why should I sell something that he may not even like and then having to wait to rebuy it again?

 

[Knux-Future]

Because its more modern. If my buddy already has the bits on the system why should I need to drive over and give him the disc when I could just hit a 'Lend Game' button in the UI that transfers the license?

Give us time limits: 1, 5, 10, 30 days. And let us set prices on it, all the way down to 0$ boom Gamefly still exists

If that happens, then ok (i think?).

Honestly, if Gamefly still worked..I'm cool with whatever.

I don't trade in as much and I don't led out as much anymore..but I do rent.

Clear up that rentals are still cool...then I'll be fine.

Not 1 hour or one day trials either.

 

[Bleedorang3]

We'll see, but I don't see any way that allowing consumers to determine trade/resale value wouldn't be completely at odds with their other decisions on the used game issue.

Well I think its rational to assume that any user not using the service for lending purposes (I.e. selling a game they're never going to play again) will set a non-zero price on it. Publishers could take a cut of that.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

The difference being that there is a law restricting what we can and cannot do with computer software.

The same cannot be said for video game software.

http://www.copyright.gov/reports/software_ren.html

What Microsoft is doing is shifty as hell.

Xbox One, home of computing game software. It has a Windows OS built in. Problem solved.

You guys really want that? well, why not leave everything as it is then, Phill? there's no need to "fix" something that isn't broken. This is bullshit

If game publishers came out and said it is broken, would you care or agree?

 

[Pikma]

"Our goal is to make it really customer-centric, really simple and really understandable and we will announce those details in due course."

You guys really want that? well, why not leave everything as it is then, Phil? there's no need to "fix" something that isn't broken. That's bullshit

If game publishers came out and said it is broken, would you care or agree?

You mean if they told the truth? I would just shut up. I'd still ignore their console because that wouldn't justify it for me. That's not the point here though, because said aspect isn't broken for the consumer, which he is focusing on.

The problem is them trying to disguise the truth, you are blocking used/rented/lended games, you can twist that into something "consumer-friendly", no matter how hard you try.

 

[Bleedorang3]

Because half of the time, I actually play games with my friend/bring games that I'd recommend to him. And then he'd either say "Never mind, I'd buy it myself/never mind it sucks" or "Hey, mind if I try it for a few days?". I know! What a shocking concept! And why should I sell something that he may not even like and then having to wait to rebuy it again?

Call it a lend option then if that's more appealing to you. Pick a friend, pick a game, pick a time limit. License is transferred to him to use it as he pleases (except for reselling on the marketplace). If he decides he doesn't like it he ends the lending period and the license is transferred back to you seamlessly. No driving involved, no disc swapping needed.

 

[Dang0]

So, basically he said the exact same thing he said before, in a slightly different way. The only thing that seems to be different is who you can trade games too, instead of doing it online you can do it at a store, but they didn't say whether you can do it at any store or if they'll make it exclusive to a specific retailer (which, if they do go exclusive, probably means you'll get back less then you would have if multiple stores were competing).

 

[Father_Brain]

Well I think its rational to assume that any user not using the service for lending purposes (I.e. selling a game they're never going to play again) will set a non-zero price on it. Publishers could take a cut of that.

Since MS will be controlling the market for "used" games via the generation and sale of activations, I suspect the cut the publishers will get will be whatever they want to get.

 

[Zep]

Because its more modern. If my buddy already has the bits on the system why should I need to drive over and give him the disc when I could just hit a 'Lend Game' button in the UI that transfers the license?

Give us time limits: 1, 5, 10, 30 days. And let us set prices on it, all the way down to 0$ boom Gamefly still exists

What delusional world do you live in where they'll give you an option to price it?

You sell it to MS, get your money(or MS points) and when they re-sell it, MS and the publisher(s) take their cut.

 

[Fi Fo Nye]

I bet Harrison wishes he could be back at Sony again.

Damn, homie, in High School you were the man, homie.

Maybe they're still looking for game testers though. I heard that's how Jaffe started out. A fresh start never hurt nobody.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Forget Harrison, this interview has everything answered. Really detailed too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=561853

 

[Beelzebubs]

So what happens when you take a game round to your friends house and their internet is down?

 

[artist]

I guess if you can't wrap your head around licenses to digital goods then its tough. A digital good is not the same as a shoe or a car because it can be replicated and executed endlessly. The only people that are making a stink out of this are either ignorant or trolling.

How is this difficult for people to understand?

And you sound like you're either ignorant or being intentionally trollish. Digital goods are not the same as physical goods. Sell it to him on the marketplace for 0$ to transfer your license.

PROBLEM FUCKING SOLVED.

What you're advocating is called Piracy. You're trying to argue that two people should be able to simultaneously play a game when only one has paid for it. If your friend wants to try the game tell him to download the trial. If they want to play the whole thing sell it to them on the Marketplace for 0$ have them sign into your account.

zZzzZzz

B..bu...but NeoGAF would still explode over the always online requirement. You can't have neither, and either is "unacceptable" to "hardcore gamers" because they want their friend to be able to play that cool game they played.

Spoiler Alert: Games will have trials. Its supported on W8, WP8, I don't see why it wouldn't be supported on XB1.

what's more, if they go through with the user-run marketplace then you could just sell the license to your buddy for 0$, effectively lending him the game until he sells it back to you for 0$.

Nice meltdown.

You start calling him out, call out GAF, accuse him of piracy then admit to basing your whole argument on assumptions?

 

[neorej]

So what happens when you take a game round to your friends house and their internet is down?

What happens when I take my xbox one to my vacation house, where Internet is but a myth.

 

[lenovox1]

Xbox One, home of computing game software. It has a Windows OS built in. Problem solved.

I don't care what they call it (and hopefully the government doesn't either). It's still a video game console, and all of the applicable laws should apply to it.

 

[Antagon]

So how are you going to know that someone transferred the license of a game if you buy it second hand? Sounds like this will be real messy. Imagine buying a second hand game in a store and finding out at home that you have to pay full price because the license is still owned by the seller.

 

[Yagharek]

There would be some people who wouldn't buy based on principle and would be mad. I'm not convinced those people couldn't be swayed ASSUMING there's some great reason to do it (like allowing people to install and run everything from the system).

a user controlled resale market sounds unbelievably stupid to me.

It won't happen, just like velocity girl selling skateboard designs on 360 never happened.

Instead it will be double and triple dipping from publishers on used game sales and lending

 

[NemesisPrime]

Basically it is just like Steam.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

What you're advocating is called Piracy. You're trying to argue that two people should be able to simultaneously play a game when only one has paid for it. If your friend wants to try the game tell him to download the trial. If they want to play the whole thing sell it to them on the Marketplace for 0$ have them sign into your account.

zZzzZzz

A friend just borrowed a book I bought. Am I a pirate now

 

[Bleedorang3]

Nice meltdown.

You start calling him out, call out GAF, accuse him of piracy then admit to basing your whole argument on assumptions?

No unreasonable ones. They've already confirmed a user driven resale market. A $0 license transfer is effectively lending your friend the game, no physical media transfer required.

Of course you could keep attacking me instead of my argument, in which case our discussion has run its course.

 

[Bleedorang3]

A friend just borrowed a book I bought. Am I a pirate now

Did you make a copy of the book beforehand and continue to read it?

 

[lenovox1]

Basically it is just like Steam.

Again, software for computers and software for video game consoles are treated differently under the law. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander in this case.

But who knows, maybe some judge somewhere is going to validate these new EULAs for this purpose. That's going to be bad for all of us.

 

[liquidtmd]

Did you make a copy of the book beforehand and continue to read it?

The poster you responded to a few pages back where you equated it to piracy didn't imply copying it nor playing it in multiple locations simultaneously - and neither did the poster you're responding to now.

The very fact this licence / borrowing issue has even got you mentioning the word 'piracy' in these terms is disturbing.