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Phil Spencer: Frame Rate Is An Area Where Consoles Can Do More, CPU/GPU Balance Is Off vs PC
- Thread starter GoldenEye98
- Start date
Insane Metal
Member
Yes it is. So what are you gonna do with the next XBox, Phil?
Shifty
Member
You have my sword, Phil. Now add 'Must hit at least a locked 60FPS' to the platform TRCs and we'll be in business.
If not, on the other hand, then it's all just big talk. Doesn't matter how much power you give most developers, without a hard rule they'll still squander it on diminishing IQ returns before even thinking about framerate.
If not, on the other hand, then it's all just big talk. Doesn't matter how much power you give most developers, without a hard rule they'll still squander it on diminishing IQ returns before even thinking about framerate.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
Thing is even though you could set a good foundation with good hardware you would still need to mandate to developers to develop games with a high-frame-rate. And I'm not sure Microsoft or Sony are going to start mandating minimum frame-rates.
Musky_Cheese
Banned
Phil says a lot of great things. But Xbox doesn’t follow often enough.
Had the X had a better CPU, it would be my primary console.
Had the X had a better CPU, it would be my primary console.
DESTROYA
Member
Thing is they did the best they could with whatever they had to work with, its not like the could have changed the whole SOC to something completely different.
Phil talks the talk hope he back's it up but next gen APU's should be much more powerful so there is hope.
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rokkerkory
Member
Phil has delivered on most of the stuff he said he would albiet it'll never be 100%. X is a beautiful machine that moves console gaming forward in many many ways. V-Sync, BC with benefits, small / quiet machine, etc etc.
Him buying / funding 5 studios is exactly what he said he'd do investing in 1st party. In the interview, he does talk about areas that need improvement namely japanese support so it's not all rosy.
Ballthyrm
Member
Having the 60FPS as part of the TRCs is really the only way it is going to get done. No AAA game can really hit that on the standard XBOX without making some sacrifices.
It is the type of thing that has to come from the top.
hiphopcr
Member
Most well designed console in history. So small, so quiet, so powerful. After the albatross base X1 model Microsoft hardware design has been industry leading, X1S to the Surface family.
Skyn3t
Banned
You have to think about the cost and that the X is only a middle gen upgrade with beefed up GPU to target 4K resolution (native or not). New gen consoles will feature new tech, obviously, and Sony and Microsoft should target 4K/60 FPS on their next machines. Just dunno is it possible in sub 500 dollar price range.
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
I was actually surprised at the amount of Japanese developer support Microsoft was able to pull out in their conference. Most people blew it off as "a lot of these games are coming to PS4 also", but it's still DAMN impressive that they had titles like Sekirio, Nier, Kingdom Hearts III, Tales of Vesperia, Devil May Cry 5, and Jump Force all coming to Xbox.
hiphopcr
Member
Right, and Cyberpunk debuting on their stage too. Developers don't want to align themselves with a loser. Phil's world tour paid off big time and in his boardroom pitch he said they're doubling down on their first part and have grand plans going into next gen and got every one on board.
rokkerkory
Member
Yeah it's a great start of hopefully a turn around. Missing Nier til now was just bad...
Having premiers like DMC5 and KH3 was just uber... those devs have to trust Phil enough to allow for that. Hopefully he builds strong relationships with many more Japanese devs.
Musky_Cheese
Banned
To each their own. I'm not going to drive this thread off topic with the 2 sides of Spencer. He's been known to say great things and under deliver. It's been discussed to death.
And to be clear I didn't say the X was shit or anything close to that. I think they delivered a great console. I just said if they had done more with the CPU I would have upgraded my Xbox.
I hope what he is saying here is true for Next Gen.
And to be clear I didn't say the X was shit or anything close to that. I think they delivered a great console. I just said if they had done more with the CPU I would have upgraded my Xbox.
I hope what he is saying here is true for Next Gen.
thelastword
Banned
Good to see Phil back on the "framerate" is king phase. Lots of multiplats have scaled back rez on XBONEX recently to ensure framerate is consistent or solid...
Dark Souls Remastered 1800p solid 60
Prey 1440p solid 30fps
Far Cry 3 solid 30fps
etc.... I think they've released the reigns on larger rez divides or 4k at the cost to framerate recently. It's something I've been saying they should do instead of chasing 4k in so many titles...
Dark Souls Remastered 1800p solid 60
Prey 1440p solid 30fps
Far Cry 3 solid 30fps
etc.... I think they've released the reigns on larger rez divides or 4k at the cost to framerate recently. It's something I've been saying they should do instead of chasing 4k in so many titles...
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
Yes, Phil. 6TFLOPS GPU + netbook CPU is a slight imbalance.
Horsemama1956
Member
Not really when you consider how few games run at 4k.
Whitecrow
Banned
Wishing is free. Is nice to wish for low power consumption, high end gpu, high end cpu, and low cost, but when you have a target price, and limited resources, you must decide how to handle them, and ask things like:
'Will games need more CPU or more GPU?' And then you balance according to that.
'A lot of CPU and a lot of GPU' is not an answer.
Phil is only trying to fool us with beautiful words, but in reality thats meaningless.
'Will games need more CPU or more GPU?' And then you balance according to that.
'A lot of CPU and a lot of GPU' is not an answer.
Phil is only trying to fool us with beautiful words, but in reality thats meaningless.
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LordOfChaos
Member
He's not wrong, the Jaguar cores are pretty darn bad by now, even with 8 of them. Four at 1.6GHz are worth 2500 GB4 points, with perfect scaling that's 5000 (and it won't have that, particularly with the issues with cross-CCX communication), so in many ways a high end tablet like an iPad Pro is ahead of console CPUs.
8 Ryzen cores on 7nm will be about the size of 8 Jaguar cores on 28nm, the power reductions should make 2.5-3GHz not out of bounds, so we're in for a pretty sizable CPU jump. Then factor in the IPC gains, and ~5X the CPU performance in total isn't out of bounds in my view. Sure it's not an order of magnitude like prior gens, but those kinds of CPU gains are much harder to come by now.
8 Ryzen cores on 7nm will be about the size of 8 Jaguar cores on 28nm, the power reductions should make 2.5-3GHz not out of bounds, so we're in for a pretty sizable CPU jump. Then factor in the IPC gains, and ~5X the CPU performance in total isn't out of bounds in my view. Sure it's not an order of magnitude like prior gens, but those kinds of CPU gains are much harder to come by now.
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Phil's really making an effort to say all the right things. Now let's see the action.
Insane Metal
Member
Does this mean the next xbox will be better balanced, ie: a decent gpu + a decent cpu? Or it will be balanced like the Xbox one ie: weak gpu + weak cpu? :/
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rokkerkory
Member
Based on the Xbox One X's results... I am sure they will go back to xenon and xenos!
Insane Metal
Member
I hope so!Based on the Xbox One X's results... I am sure they will go back to xenon and xenos!
frogger
Member
Had x had a better CPU it will be $100 more.
Musky_Cheese
Banned
It still sucked for the Pro, but Sony wanted to hit $399
I would have rather seen the X with a better CPU and remove some of the other extras. Just my preference tho.
Insane Metal
Member
And maybe a few compatibility issues here and there.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Not much they could have done about CPU's this generation. The next one is a different story.
Also interested in what the Microsoft AI and cloud departments can bring to the table.
Also interested in what the Microsoft AI and cloud departments can bring to the table.
JimboJones
Member
Variable refresh rates will help a lot, it's just a shame there not widely adopted on TV's at the moment.
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Insane Metal
Member
I bet MS will go with Intel for their next machine. Intel custom APU, 2020.
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Skyfox
Member
Quick update - I’ve played more of the game and although it is unfortunately 30fps, the resolution boost is actually quite beautiful.
General Lee
Member
Next gen will be defined more by Ryzen that Navi. Doubling the One X TFLOPS will not make a massive difference in graphics, but Ryzen allowing for more detail density and higher frame rates is what will differentiate next gen. Add to that HDMI 2.1 variable refresh rate support and games won't necessarily have to hit 60 FPS either.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
That's probably going to be more expensive than what AMD can provide. Who knows though, maybe Surface and Xbox can somewhat unify their hardware and strike a big deal for custom hardware.
Lone Wolf
Member
Did Phil personally program that game?
manfestival
Member
I remember when the PS3 was all about the Cell processor yet the xbox 360 had a cheaper processor and overall materials and only performed marginally less in many cases and sometimes even better
VisualFidelity
Member
Next gen, consoles finally reach PC level quality. Currently closing the gap
LordOfChaos
Member
I'd say it even more strongly than that - The 360 did better on the vast majority of games that were cross platform due to the stronger GPU, unified memory that didn't have severe compromises if you needed more than 256MB for either set, and easier to use CPU. The Toshiba based GPU that was originally going to go in there fell through on performance, so they spent all this money developing the CPU, but had to settle with a not that modified GPU that was worse than what was out the year before in the 360.
Only towards the tail end did just a handful of games reach near perfect parity or squeeze out the slightest win for the PS3.
As for first party we could argue forever if those could or couldn't run on 360 hardware, but we'll just never know. I'm sure Naughty Dog/ICE could make something just as impressive on 360 hardware given a blank check for R&D too though.
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theclaw135
Banned
Next to no settings for low end systems was a huge mistake.
Intel don't have the graphics tech to make a competitive APU.
The only company who can is AMD so that's what we will get.
In terms of specs
Before 2021 6c 12t zen 2 + 12 Tflop GPU + 32GB ram. In 2020 I could see HBM2 being used.
2021 8c 16t zen 3 + 18 Tflop GPU + 32GB HBM2.
Ms improved over PS4 3 fold in 4 years with a shrink from 28nm to a mature 14nm. They are using roughly the same power in the X and it's the same die size.
2019/2020 7nm will be immature so yields will be down hence the lower spec. By 2021 7nm will be mature so you can build a larger die and get the same number of working dies per wafer.
HoodWinked
Member
its because the original game was capped to 30fps. if the game had an unlocked framerate it may have been able to be 60fps. the reason they can boost the resolution is because they're able to quadruple the output, where as its not as easy to unlock the framerate because the game logic or physics could be locked to that frame rate, which would then cause the game to become unstable, but say they forciably doubled the framerate, well that would mean everything would have to run twice as fast making the game unplayable.
games like bayonetta or blackops pretty much hold 60fps on back compat because the original games had unlocked framerates.
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llien
Member
I could imagine approach working with XBox exclusives, but for "we want higher framerates" to work for crossplatforms, next XBox needs to wipe the floor with PS5, which is highly unlikely given the rumors we have heard about 7nm Navi poised to shine in PS5 being optimized to consume less power (means Sony is already pushing the boundaries).
phil_t98
#SonyToo
your complaining that they made a game look better? why did you buy it if you are gonna complain about it and also did you not check out if it had an X patch and what it did?
some people eh
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
Agreed.
If I manufacture running shoes, I simply can't say the my shoes guarantee that you'll run at X kilometers per hour.
My product may be the absolute peak of efficient design and be perfect in every way, but it's still not something I can guarantee - it's up to the people that use my product.
Stipulating this level of performance as a mandatory requirement at a contractual level is the only way to offer that guarantee. But given how late in the dev-cycle that level of performance optimisation occurs it just doesn't seem a practical thing to enforce.
cireza
Member
Phil Spencer has nothing to do with this. Game engine runs at 30fps, emulation can't unlock this. It requires code change. If you want 60fps, play Sonic Forces.