Sad Affleck
Member
Is it really that hard to understand why Microsoft wants to release its games on two platforms it completely owns and not on one which is a clear competitor?
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Phil Spencer on If Microsoft Will Ever Launch AAA Titles on Steam Again
- Thread starter dancrane212
- Start date
Is it really that hard to understand why Microsoft wants to release its games on two platforms it completely owns and not on one which is a clear competitor?
Yeah, when the attach rate on the W10 store is ridiculously low.
It seems like Phil is either being arrogant or misunderstands the issue. The question isn't "will steam survive without MS games", it's "will MS games survive without steam?" - the answer doesn't seem to be "yes" so far.
That's not true. They could have aggressive pricing, better features (cloud syncing with xbone saves, achievement synchronization, better OS feature integration), and more. The problem is that right now their platform is actively undesirable for most people. The games are irrelevant. Their platform is just poorly implemented, lacks features and is overall not designed for large AAA games.
Compsiox
Banned
You obviously don't know why Evil Lore wouldn't sell GAF
LOL I can't even...
And yet, when Steam launched, PC gamers thought it was a plague on gaming. It's ridiculous to act as though Valve is some infallible juggernaut and other ecosystems cannot exist. If anything I think they show pretty often what their faults are, they have the benefit that basically every PC gamer uses their store, but that's Phil's point: They don't need those games to attain that level, and the Windows store does, so they're pushing that themselves until the stores can be roughly at parity.
How do you think Steam became so ubiquitous? They FORCED you to download the shit early on when it was a bad piece of software in order to play their games. I know this board has a lot of younger people now, but I think a lot of folk just don't remember how PC gaming was even 15 years ago. It wasn't a small crowd mad about Valve forcing Steam on people, it was WIDELY reviled.
BibiMaghoo
Member
But the other services that exist already have these things. They can't win by undercutting everyone, because there will still be cheaper companies or people will pay slightly more for it to be part of their ecosystem of choice. Any OS features they can bring already exist on PC other than cross save with Xbox. I don't really see that helping much of anything.
A post I made in the Steam Community thread is a good counter-argument here:
The consumer is wiser now, has access to better things, and doesn't need to buy into Winstore. Why should we accept shit because shit is what we accepted 12 years ago?
(Also, because I read back comments and think they might come across rather "fervent", a smiley to show I'm not foaming at the mouth as sit I at my keyboard:
)Because you want to play the games? and because you're pretty sure it will improve. Although there are lessons to be learned from software that came before, nothing is going to change over a decade of growth. Again, if it REALLY bothers you to use the windows store, don't use it. That's the point. The fact that people get all butthurt about it is crazy, that's like being mad that you have to buy a PS4 to play a Sony game, except all you have to do in this case is use the app that is built into windows 10 regardless.
"WE WANT IT ON STEAM BECAUSE REASONS" comes accross as pedantic. If you want MS to keep footing development of these games, they need to make money somehow. If you don't think the store is hassle free enough to use, don't use it, seems really simple. If you want to play them and don't want to open the store, buy a fucking xbox. Meanwhile if you want a Sony exclusive, you have literally no choice, but somehow MS are the bad guys for wanting to move their products onto a model more like apple/steam? Who can blame them.
The first reason is valid - I'm not saying we should burn the Winstore users alive for being heretics, I'm saying that it sucks, and arguing Steam sucked 12 years ago is obtuse/possible straw-man.
The second reason - that you're pretty sure it'll improve - is very much a "buyer beware" thing. If you want to take that risk, fair, but I don't think we - collectively - should assume it will improve. (Edit: Or improve as much as it should, given the competition).
Have you seen the arguments against UWP? To me, they're not pedantic. But *shrugs*
Incidentally, I think platform-exclusives suck - my argument a page or two back about how Remedy must be dispirited due to lack of sales can be equally applied to any platform exclusive that sells below what it ought... Bayonetta 2 for example. I just don't think we should jump at the chance for less exclusives when they're tied to so many negatives. Personally, I would much rather have less exclusives on the PC in exchange for the assurance that MS aren't going to "do a GFWL". But I understand not everyone feels like that, so I didn't mention it above.
Anyways, not trying to start anything, just giving impressions/opinions.
Oh I've been PC gaming for 20+ years. I remember. Thing is, that was then, this is now. Steam did indeed force itself on people, but now it's the de facto option. A new player does not have the same luxury of being able to force itself on people, because the marketplace is different now. If people don't want the MS store, they have other options now.
Pretty much confirms what they've started doing.
Short term this is going to kill the titles locked to W10 store like Quantum Break though. With Remedy already talking about a "new partner" I suspect this will have implications for third party partnerships as if I wanted to put a game on XB1/PC I'd be pretty hesitant about locking myself to W10 Store. I expect to see this approach gravitate to MS 1st party content and 3rd party devs to stipulate that they can release on Steam too (i.e. ROTTR situation vs QB situation).
I'm going to come right out and say it though. It's not going to work. EA can sustain Origin as "their" storefront as they have enough games but that couldn't touch Steam for general game purchase.
MS are going to find trying to compete with Steam even harder.
Myself I think they're doing it wrong. Let Valve have what they have and put all their games on Steam.
On PC for W10 store they should focus on general consumer with laptops (or Surface) looking for smaller, mobile games, music, films, etc and look to attract more and more of them to their store.
They're not going to shift people buying 3rd part games on gaming PCs away from Steam. It's a doomed attempt from the start that's going to kill a bunch of games from the start (QB being the first obviously victim).
Short term this is going to kill the titles locked to W10 store like Quantum Break though. With Remedy already talking about a "new partner" I suspect this will have implications for third party partnerships as if I wanted to put a game on XB1/PC I'd be pretty hesitant about locking myself to W10 Store. I expect to see this approach gravitate to MS 1st party content and 3rd party devs to stipulate that they can release on Steam too (i.e. ROTTR situation vs QB situation).
I'm going to come right out and say it though. It's not going to work. EA can sustain Origin as "their" storefront as they have enough games but that couldn't touch Steam for general game purchase.
MS are going to find trying to compete with Steam even harder.
Myself I think they're doing it wrong. Let Valve have what they have and put all their games on Steam.
On PC for W10 store they should focus on general consumer with laptops (or Surface) looking for smaller, mobile games, music, films, etc and look to attract more and more of them to their store.
They're not going to shift people buying 3rd part games on gaming PCs away from Steam. It's a doomed attempt from the start that's going to kill a bunch of games from the start (QB being the first obviously victim).
Microsoft are squeezing themselves out of the gaming market. The idea behind Xbox being platform independent (that is regardless if you have a PC or want a dedicated gaming console) is neat, but it would have to be competitive against Steam and PS4, but as it stands it seems to be less compelling as a console than PS4 and less compelling as a service than Steam and consequently losing marketshare to both.
nephilimdj
Member
Nothing unreasonable about whay he said, if they are paying for the pc port then they can choose it to be exclusive. No different to nvidia owning store rights to all those android ports, which includes valve games.
Felix Lighter
Member
If they do release on Steam, their games will still be hamstrung UWP apps. I would buy from Win 10 Store if that wasn't the case. That's my sticking point.
I believe Notch wanted to put Minecraft on Steam but at that point Steam didn't have early access so they wanted to wait for a final version. Notch started selling it direct though his site and it became popular enough that he didn't need to sell it on Steam. Valve realized how badly their no alpha/beta policy screwed them and started early acess.
Already did so no need to worry.
They don't have a chance.
Steam has CS and Dota phenomenon wich alone are bigger than entire Microsoft Store on Windows 10.
Playstation 4 has a global appeal, everyone knows it everyone buys it, parents say Playstation when talking about Xbox.
Microsoft chances are with their less but vocal fans, there are still millions of engaged Xbox owners but marketshare shouldn't be Microsoft priority right now because Ps4 and Steam are unbeatable.
SneakyStephan
Banned
I've had a steam account since the css beta
Steam is nothing like the windows store
Steam did not come with seperate walled garden api that crippled modding
Comparing the windows store to early steam days is so incredibly disingenuous
On topic: the only way ms will allow their games on steam is if valve support UWP
And there is (thankfully) not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening
When UWP fails (it's not an if anymore, windows store has failed and third party publishers and storefronts are not going to support that shit against their own interests) they will simply stop porting xbox games to pc. UWP is the only reason they're doing these ports, because they need the trojan horse.
I'll be glad when things are back to normal and ms piss off from pc gaming again
LordRaptor
Member
And that's the crux, isn't it?
We're a pivot away from everything said now to be irrelevant again.
If Scorpio is hugely successful, do we really believe that "ecosystem" not "units sold" will continue to be the aggregate measure of success? Or do we see all those titles going right back to being console exclusives?
I don't believe that to be true at all, since at least the announcement of HL moving to an episodic model Gabe Newell has publically been talking about wanting to see more agile / democratic game development where public releases can be made faster and released to public reception easier, of which Early Access is a clear extension of that belief.
Well he very clearly says he wants to get Xbox and PC games to update in sync, which will not make sense to PC gaming as it is, but is much more of a benefit only looking towards Xbox. Even if Xbox removes the certification process of updates which actively slows the process of itteration and collaboration seen in many PC games / versions, all manner of PC service providers build up their own unique services and features which they then integrate into their games. Xbox will never be able to predict or support all of them in perfect sync, and if they were to force such a thing it would not only slow down the sometimes multiple times a day updating that happens, but also reduce / prevent the software innovation that occurs thanks to PC's open nature of competing services that introduce new services and features to challenge and compete with others, as well as collaborate and innovate so quickly vs elsewhere. The fact Phil can go at length to the same concept in hardware, but seemingly miss what is happening in software and between all the different services on PC is an indication of him doing his job - Xbox interests over everything else
polarizeme
Member
I did not see that as "titles" and was very confused by your response. I'll just keep it at that...
Depends on their priority I guess.
They could do it Ubi-style, or delay and compile a Steam version 6-12 months later, or shove everything into the Windows App store till it falls over like Windows Phone.
Still, will jump in for sales and good games despite preferring a Steam version.
They could do it Ubi-style, or delay and compile a Steam version 6-12 months later, or shove everything into the Windows App store till it falls over like Windows Phone.
Still, will jump in for sales and good games despite preferring a Steam version.
Minecraft never needed Steam. Why give Valve a free 30% of each sale when you're selling just fine?
UWP is around to stay. Pretty sure the intent is that it will deprecate win32 like win32 deprecated win16.
LordRaptor
Member
The intent of .NET was to replace the Win32 framework.
The intent of WinRT was to replace the Win32 framework.
Shotgun Kiss
Member
Just put Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise up, and then do whatever the hell you want with the rest, Microsoft.
They really think Valve is going to drop win32 support in favor of a App on their Store? Or Riot? Or Blizzard?
haha oh boy.
The "proper" way to do it would be to start with the Business-related apps - switch the Office family to UWP, for example. Make the latest version of Word UWP-only. Either it works and you have the momentum of businesses and IT departments behind you, or it fails, in which case, try again in 5/10 years.
But of course, I expect the main reason they didn't do that is because IT departments and tech professionals would laugh UWP out the building, so...
LordRaptor
Member
Its substantially more significant than 'just' games publishers, it is all 'performance' desktop software, including Microsofts own enterprise divisons.
Which is why you did not see .NET or WinRT editions of Visio / Project / Office, and you don't see UWA editions.
Write Once Run Anywhere is a myth, and it comes with huge gotchas and caveats to the extent that if you are writing complex high performance software - like AAA games - you are better off making a platform specific version for each target platform.
It is the only way of ensuring that it runs fast and is robust.
e:
Because basically it doesn't matter how much MS evangelise that Win32 is old and busted because it only runs on Win32 platforms, if its still less of a pain to write 2 different forks that target different platforms than it is to write one that doesn't run acceptably anywhere
Darth Smurf X
Member
Nah. Let's just continue to pick out various quotes and create a topic for each and every one.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Microsoft need to drastically improve their UWP for games to allow Mods, SLI / Crossfire, Vsync On or Off, real Fullscreen Mode and Game Overlays or better yet just drop UWP and just release games normally.
Tizoc
Member
I mean I would've bought it during the summer sale for one thing.
fwiw, I don't even realize games have been released if they aren't on the steam new releases tab. I'm an adult with a full time job, I don't have time to follow when games are coming out and where. Like I didn't even realize Mirror's Edge 2 came out until someone told me the other day. I don't play PC games outside of Steam unless their some classic games, in which case I figure they will be on GOG.
I think there's probably a lot of PC gamers similar to me in that respect.
I think there's probably a lot of PC gamers similar to me in that respect.
Nope, Windows 10 Store only. Because nothing says "We're sending a game out to die," like restricting it to one OS that you've manufactured. :/ (The Steam Hardware Survey states approximately 52% of users who have taken the survey are using Windows 7 (x86 and x64) or windows 8 (again, x86 and x64 versions), just to note how prevalent they are among Steam gamers still).
KonradLaw
Member
It would be nice if they would make some big PC exclusives again and launch them through Steam. Stuff that doesn't make sense on Xbox, like new Flight Simulator or Age of Empires/Rise of Nations. Especially since those games would really need Steam to sell well. Xbox Play Anywhere titles are probably designed to sell mostly on console, so there's not as much pressure to deliver big numbers of Windows10 store.