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[Messofanego]

Doesn't she have to take the pictures with their consent ? I'd say there's gotta be grounds for some lawsuit there. Defamation ? Well, maybe presenting them as sexist and putting them in the pillory is already enough for that ?

From the blog:

"The tech community, especially the Open Source community is built on respect for others. There’s a gentleman’s code for privacy (taking a picture w/o permission is not ok; spamming someone a virtual crime) and procedure dictates even security leaks to be reported privately."

Not sure if those are official rules, whatever "gentleman's code" means, but it doesn't seem to be ok to take those pictures without permission in that community.

 

[border]

I love how she handled the situation in the most cowardly and childish way possible, but when recounting the experience she makes herself sound like this selfless, brave crusader who thwarted a super-villain:

"I realized I had to do something or [the girl in the photo onstage] would never have the chance to learn and love programming"

"the future of programming was on the line and I made myself heard."

I also love to think about how she probably felt such power and validation at the moment she heard the man in question was fired -- only to have all that hubris come crashing down less than a day later when she got shitcanned as well.

 

[TheJerit]

Yesterday the future of programming was on the line and I made myself heard.

 

[HammerOfThor]

Did she comment on her getting fired yet?

 

[moka]

Did she comment on her getting fired yet?

No, but I'm sure it'll be entertaining.

 

[Mumei]

Mumei- speaking as an african american this view is completely off.

Why? sure. it's true that cultural messages, policies, beliefs etc are skewed to whites in a broad sense, as they are the majority across the country. turn on NBC/CBS/ABC etc, you're going to get the cultural messages white america likes to promote.

On a smaller scale though? this isn't true. Think of white children in predominantly black schools, or white families in predominantly black neighborhoods. In THOSE situations, the policies, cultural norms, messages, etc they get from peers, cops, and neighbors skew in favor of the minority. Black families and authority figures can and do shut out white families they see as outsiders. It's less common, but isn't any less despicable.

I grew up in a black suburban neighborhood, went to black schools, and saw it firsthand. It doesn't matter what the television says if you're being bullied for being different everyday, and in some cases "different" means being white.

This woman is full of shit. racism is racism.

I don't want to seem like I'm contradicting your experiences; I haven't lived your life and don't know those things. But I would like to clarify what I was talking about when I referred to institutional practices and policies so I can explain why I still don't consider what you are describing racism. There's a poster on GAF (GPsych) who recently talked about being told to diagnosed African American males as Autistic rather than Intellectually Disabled, and that many schools start files on African American males early on so as to begin the referral process for special education for behavioral issues as soon as possible. There is also the other end of the scale, gifted and talented programs, which serve as a de facto way of segregating students in practice which is caused by a number of factors from teacher's expectations in elementary school to the schools kids attend to the fact that it isn't based on objective measures but the parents' ability to advocate on the child's behalf. This creates two completely separate educational tracks, with black students - who already have to deal with the effects of racial prejudice about academic expectations - also having to deal with diminished expectations based upon how they have been labeled by the school system. And outside of the purely academic, there's the documented tendency of school officials to view black male students as hypersexual (which is a long-standing stereotype about black men) and to punish them more severely than white male students are for the same offenses.

Even when members of a majority (or normative) group are in the minority, they still carry some of the benefits of their social status. This is not an example that relates to race, but a good example nonetheless comes from sexism: men who have careers in stereotypically feminine occupations (nursing, librarians, etc.) benefit from what has been called a glass elevator effect. This is because men benefit from their gender privilege even in a situation where they are not in the majority - because it isn't simply about the immediate context but also about the larger culture we share. We also live in a racist society, and it is difficult to avoid racist messages and ideas. This means that subconscious (and naturally conscious) prejudices are held by both members of both normative and marginalized racial identities. I know you already know this; my point in bringing it up is that because of the larger culture you mentioned and the fact that these prejudices are unavoidable, I feel that the situations are different.

We can agree to disagree if you like; I understand the perspective you're coming from and I really just wanted to clarify where I was coming from, whether you ultimately agreed with me or not.

 

[genjiZERO]

I just read about this on the BBC... it's a little confusing. Is what they did is make a couple of sexist jokes with each other, not directed towards her, she got offended, took a picture of them, and posted it on Twitter?

If that's the case, then I think she's taking it entirely too personally. If not, then I'd like to know what the facts are before I make a real decision.

 

[NovemberMike]

I don't want to seem like I'm contradicting your experiences; I haven't lived your life and don't know those things. But I would like to clarify what I was talking about when I referred to institutional practices and policies so I can explain why I still don't consider what you are describing racism. There's a poster on GAF (GPsych) who recently talked about being told to diagnosed African American males as Autistic rather than Intellectually Disabled, and that many schools start files on African American males early on so as to begin the referral process for special education for behavioral issues as soon as possible. There is also the other end of the scale, gifted and talented programs, which serve as a de facto way of segregating students in practice which is caused by a number of factors from teacher's expectations in elementary school to the schools kids attend to the fact that it isn't based on objective measures but the parents' ability to advocate on the child's behalf. This creates two completely separate educational tracks, with black students - who already have to deal with the effects of racial prejudice about academic expectations - also having to deal with diminished expectations based upon how they have been labeled by the school system. And outside of the purely academic, there's the documented tendency of school officials to view black male students as hypersexual (which is a long-standing stereotype about black men) and to punish them more severely than white male students are for the same offenses.

Even when members of a majority (or normative) group are in the minority, they still carry some of the benefits of their social status. This is not an example that relates to race, but a good example nonetheless comes from sexism: men who have careers in stereotypically feminine occupations (nursing, librarians, etc.) benefit from what has been called a glass elevator effect. This is because men benefit from their gender privilege even in a situation where they are not in the majority - because it isn't simply about the immediate context but also about the larger culture we share. We also live in a racist society, and it is difficult to avoid racist messages and ideas. This means that subconscious (and naturally conscious) prejudices are held by both members of both normative and marginalized racial identities. I know you already know this; my point in bringing it up is that because of the larger culture you mentioned and the fact that these prejudices are unavoidable, I feel that the situations are different.

We can agree to disagree if you like; I understand the perspective you're coming from and I really just wanted to clarify where I was coming from, whether you ultimately agreed with me or not.

Here's the thing, you didn't address his point. Of course national minorities have it worse in America, but that doesn't mean that a local minority (say a white child in a black majority school) can't have bad things happen to them. This isn't zero sum and you haven't said anything that contradicts him, you've just ignored what he said and said "well there's a worse thing happening over there".

 

[pigeon]

Here's the thing, you didn't address his point. Of course national minorities have it worse in America, but that doesn't mean that a local minority (say a white child in a black majority school) can't have bad things happen to them. This isn't zero sum and you haven't said anything that contradicts him, you've just ignored what he said and said "well there's a worse thing happening over there".

You've completely failed to understand what Mumei is saying about the difference between institutionalized racism and individual instances of conflict or discrimination.

 

[Byakuya769]

Here's the thing, you didn't address his point. Of course national minorities have it worse in America, but that doesn't mean that a local minority (say a white child in a black majority school) can't have bad things happen to them. This isn't zero sum and you haven't said anything that contradicts him, you've just ignored what he said and said "well there's a worse thing happening over there".

Take a deep breath and reread his post.

 

[NovemberMike]

You've completely failed to understand what Mumei is saying about the difference between institutionalized racism and individual instances of conflict or discrimination.

No, she just failed to give a cogent argument. "Things are worse somewhere else" is shitty logic.

Now, you can argue that the institutional nature of the racism is different or that it's easier for a member of the national majority to escape the discrimination or that minority on majority racism is less likely to turn into actual discrimination than majority on minority or minority on minority racism. Those are all things that you can make a reasonable argument for and don't tend to obfuscate the issue. But there's a reason why Mumei's definition of racism isn't in dictionaries, and it's because you see it more from people trying to excuse their own shitty behavior without examining it than from people trying to understand and solve the problems we face. This woman is a perfect example of this, she's a shitty person that causes drama and bullies people and tries to use her identity to deflect attacks (look at why she's saying the "I can't be racist/sexist" stuff, it's because she said something dumb and doesn't want to apologize).

 

[dragonelite]

She did more harm then good for females wanting to go into tech.
I hope it hurt her when she fell of that high horse.

Future of programming my ass.

 

[GungHo]

The moral of the story is don't fucking go cry to your boss everytime someone offends you. You're not 5, you're an adult, if someones fucking offended you then tell them. Now because of this gals immaturity 3 people including her got fired.

But, she didn't cry to her boss. She didn't even go to the organziers of the seminar, initially. She went to the internet so that she could inflict maximum embarassment on two morons she doesn't know, who should have realized they were in public and not at the club.

What are you talking about? Developer evangelists are hired as an employee of of the company whose product she's promoting.

The term "evangelist" in this context is too funny.

BTW, I realize it's a common term. I'm not trying to fight you. Why the fuck do I feel it's necessary to qualify this statement? Shit.

Why couldn't she just confront the guys... Twitter is killing jobs by the minute

Because then no one could witness that she was being offended.

You say this in a derisive way, but the ability to finger wag and tell women to suck it up when sex jokes make them uncomfortable in professional settings does seem like a privileged position to hold. My wife has expressed discomfort at similar instances in her work life. It has no place at a professional event and it's lame. She went way overboard, but let's not act like that sort of behavior doesn't make many women feel uncomfortable when they are only one of a few in the room/industry.

I don't disagree with you here and I don't tolerate it with the guys (or ladies) here, but the use of "help, help, I'm being offended" as a weapon of first resort is also not tolerable. Both rot the core dynamics of the organization, and both need to be addressed.

I have no problem with concerns about political correctness when people are using it to actually move to a harmonized workplace/society. It's not ok that the guys were giggling like Beavis and Butthead saying "hhhuh hhuuuh huuuh, he said dongle", and I feel bad that she had to listen to it. I really feel that a turn around with the stinky eye and maybe a "would you want your mom to hear you talk like that?" or, if concerned about a confrontation, a private comment to the convention organizers would have been a better approach. If they had said... "uh, whatever, bitch" then, yeah, by all means, go nuclear. I'd deliver the pink slips and call the guards to have them bumrushed off the premises myself.

Uitmately, none of them are getting the justice they deserved, and none of them likely understand the "teachable moment" they experienced.

 

[Mumei]

Here's the thing, you didn't address his point. Of course national minorities have it worse in America, but that doesn't mean that a local minority (say a white child in a black majority school) can't have bad things happen to them. This isn't zero sum and you haven't said anything that contradicts him, you've just ignored what he said and said "well there's a worse thing happening over there".

No, she just failed to give a cogent argument. "Things are worse somewhere else" is shitty logic.

No, I think pigeon is right. I was not arguing "Things are worse somewhere else", or arguing that this means that a white child can't have bad things happen to them. I was differentiating between what I refer to as racism (prejudice + social, cultural and institutional power and policies) and what I refer to as racial prejudice alone. The white child in your example may experience ostracism and bullying as a result of racial prejudice, but he does not experience the same institutional marginalization as a similarly situated black child would. I don't refer to that as racism.

Now, you can argue that the institutional nature of the racism is different or that it's easier for a member of the national majority to escape the discrimination or that minority on majority racism is less likely to turn into actual discrimination than majority on minority or minority on minority racism. Those are all things that you can make a reasonable argument for and don't tend to obfuscate the issue.

... I did? I mean, I was differentiating between the institutional nature of racism (all those institutional policies and practices in schools around the United States that do - understatement - a disservice to the vast majority of African American students, perhaps especially male students) and the personal nature of prejudice; I was arguing for the position that we differentiate between the two by not calling them the same thing.

Edit: Oh, the racism. I missed that. But I was arguing that the institutional nature of racism is different from the purely personal nature of prejudice.

But there's a reason why Mumei's definition of racism isn't in dictionaries, and it's because you see it more from people trying to excuse their own shitty behavior without examining it than from people trying to understand and solve the problems we face.

Let's stop here. I am not Adria, so why do you think I am using it?

 

[7Th]

WSJ reports 4chan's "victory":

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...4893242.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Before anyone comments on this thread, think twice before you submit the reply.

Huh? Exactly what are you warning us about.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

There's a proper way to handle inappropriate comments at a software conference. Twitter isn't the way to do it.

The guys making the jokes are morons and can think it over on the unemployment line. There's a time and a place to say crazy shit. At a public conference while on company time while surrounded by strangers that may not find your brand of humor appealing isn't appropriate.

They all deserved to get fired. Save the crude jokes for home and save the moral outrage for HR.

 

[Heart Attack]

After reading everything. I'm hopeful that the reports of her getting fired are true.

 

[-COOLIO-]

the verge has a point that playhaven should hold most of the blame for those guys losing their jobs.

 

[-COOLIO-]

This is basically a case full of absolutely horrible reactions. From her, to the companies, to the Internet cowboys.

And it was all spurred because she didn't practice what she preached. Everybody sucks in this.

basically.

 

[not psycho]

The most offensive part of this, and the reason I would have posted their pictures and crime for the whole world to see, is that "dongle" is not even a funny word.

Wikipedia says a dongle is "a small piece of hardware that attaches to computer, TV, or other electronic device and enables additional functions such as copy protection, audio, video, games, data, or other services that are only available when it is attached."

Hilarious.

 

[usea]

The most offensive part of this, and the reason I would have posted their pictures and crime for the whole world to see, is that "dongle" is not even a funny word.

Wikipedia says a dongle is "a small piece of hardware that attaches to computer, TV, or other electronic device and enables additional functions such as copy protection, audio, video, games, data, or other services that are only available when it is attached."

Hilarious.

 

[Grand Funk Carwash]

At what point can you tell someone to harden the fuck up? Big dongle and forking is pretty tame.

 

[border]

The most offensive part of this, and the reason I would have posted their pictures and crime for the whole world to see, is that "dongle" is not even a funny word.

Any term containing the word "dong" is probably fair ground for a joke to be made.

 

[numble]

He can try to get unemployment, but if this wasn't the only reason they fired him, then his claim would likely be denied. Plus, he and his coworker were representatives of their company at the event, so that alone could be reasonable cause.

Where do you live? Unemployment benefits for being fired are usually okay.

 

[wonderdung]

They all deserved to get fired. Save the crude jokes for home and save the moral outrage for HR.

Actually no one deserved to get fired in this situation as far as I can tell. By all accounts the joking was fairly innocuous and she overreacted, but if they were violating the conference policies then kick them out and let that be the end of it.

Of course we don't know... maybe there were other contributing factors in both firings. But all the hate at her is badly aimed and just makes the internet male defense force look even worse than it already did. She could have handled the situation in a better way, but she didn't request or imply that anyone should be fired as far as I've seen. The real outcry should be... why the hell would any company fire someone over something like this?

 

[MIMIC]

lol

I just read about this on the BBC... it's a little confusing. Is what they did is make a couple of sexist jokes with each other, not directed towards her, she got offended, took a picture of them, and posted it on Twitter?

That's the way I interpreted it.

Then Timedog suggested that they were talking loud enough to be heard over loud speakers, which kinda adds to the obnoxiousness.

 

[Madness]

Her comments on racism are hilarious. My first ever racist event was two black kids about 4 years older than me, throwing a pop can at my head and calling me racial slurs in elementary. Anyone and everyone can be racist if they choose to be.

 

[travisbickle]

Don't tell sexual jokes in a work environment, this ain't the 50s.

Also, Twitter is f'in freaky, hasn't anyone realised it's basically a reified "mountain out of a mole hill maker" if you put anything on there that can be misconstrued!

 

[Madness]

Don't tell sexual jokes in a work environment, this ain't the 50s.

Also, Twitter is f'in freaky, hasn't anyone realised it's basically a reified "mountain out of a mole hill maker" if you put anything on there that can be misconstrued!

It was a conference apparently and she overheard a private conversation between some people. She took pictures and uploaded them onto Facebook, Twitter to try and shame them.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

The assholes here are the guys who fired people over this.

.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

There's a proper way to handle inappropriate comments at a software conference. Twitter isn't the way to do it.

The guys making the jokes are morons and can think it over on the unemployment line. There's a time and a place to say crazy shit. At a public conference while on company time while surrounded by strangers that may not find your brand of humor appealing isn't appropriate.

They all deserved to get fired. Save the crude jokes for home and save the moral outrage for HR.

I wouldn't exactly classify a joke about dongles as crude. At most it's silly and immature. The only reason she stirred the whole thing up was because she thought incredibly highly of herself and thought it was her duty to single handedly help out all future generations of females who wanted to work in the tech industry. Of course she undermined her position by making her own "crude" joke.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Her comments on racism are hilarious. My first ever racist event was two black kids about 4 years older than me, throwing a pop can at my head and calling me racial slurs in elementary. Anyone and everyone can be racist if they choose to be.

The point she's woefully mangled is that it's difficult for a marginalized group to perpetuate institutional racism. Everyone is capable of racial prejudice, no doubt.

 

[lazorexplosion]

Dongle joke in a conversation you aren't even involved in too offensive to handle? Yeah bullshit, everything about her behavior screams someone looking to take offense so they can get on their self righteous high horse. Taking offense is like validation for someone like that.

 

[remnant]

There's a proper way to handle inappropriate comments at a software conference. Twitter isn't the way to do it.

The guys making the jokes are morons and can think it over on the unemployment line. There's a time and a place to say crazy shit. At a public conference while on company time while surrounded by strangers that may not find your brand of humor appealing isn't appropriate.

They all deserved to get fired. Save the crude jokes for home and save the moral outrage for HR.

They all deserved to be fired? Jokes about dongles is qualification for being fired? Come on

 

[Madness]

One time at work, during a staff meeting, a few girls made a joke about how one of coworkers pants were too tight because we could sort of see his bulge.

Do I have the right to take a picture of them, post it to twitter, Facebook etc.?

It was a crude joke made privately she overheard. She decided to publicly shame them and got them fired when all she needed to do was tell them to be quiet and not be disrespectful.

I'm all for gender equality and removing harassment from the workplace. I'm not alright with the PC and speech police telling me what I can and cannot say in private conversation, even if it's overheard. What if in out to dinner somewhere? What about a movie?

This was a professional conference, and yes they were making crude jokes. Who takes pictures and posts them online to shame them? Judging from most of her comments on twitter, I can try and make a character judgment about when she is.

And believe me, I've heard worse than jokes about dongles or whatever they said, and from women no less.

 

[Dizzy]

Reading some of her comments linked in here she seems crazy and seems to have her head firmly up her own ass. It's scary that a women like this had the reach to get these people fired.

She talks about two guys making it impossible for women to become developers.....this nutball scares me off from ever becoming one :-/

 

[not psycho]

Sure, you think it's all fun and games now. Laugh about dongles as much as you want, right?

Then one day at work your boss asks if you brought the dongle today. But you don't know what they're talking about. What dongle? What dongle indeed.

Think about that next time before you titter away at a dongle.

 

[moka]

Reading some of her comments linked in here she seems crazy and seems to have her head firmly up her own ass. It's scary that a women like this had the reach to get these people fired.

She talks about two guys making it impossible for women to become developers.....this nutball scares me off from ever becoming one :-/

I mean, she thought she was doing women a favour but really, what she's done is make it harder for women to get into tech.

I certainly don't want to work with someone who can't take a joke.

 

[Bollocks]

Hope she never finds a job again, given her history she sounds like a lot of work and her recent actions ultimately cost a family father its job

 

[Wolves Evolve]

*walks into thread*

reads "she seems like a lot of work"

reads "she can't take a joke"

*backs the fuck away*

I think Courtney Stanton really hit the nail on the head. You can disagree with what she did but there's much more to say about the hostility of tech events to women.

 

[Yopis]

*walks into thread*

reads "she seems like a lot of work"

reads "she can't take a joke"

*backs the fuck away*

I think Courtney Stanton really hit the nail on the head. You can disagree with what she did but there's much more to say about the hostility of tech events to women.

Goes both ways and with women like this on the feminist Crusade things wont get better.

 

[Tacitus_]

*walks into thread*

reads "she seems like a lot of work"

reads "she can't take a joke"

*backs the fuck away*

I think Courtney Stanton really hit the nail on the head. You can disagree with what she did but there's much more to say about the hostility of tech events to women.

The thing is, she has no problems making big dick jokes on her twitter (and TSA groping at the same time), but heaven forbid she hears two guys joking about big dongles to each other.

 

[akira28]

Goes both ways and with women like this on the feminist Crusade things wont get better.

somebody's gotta swing the axe. You just hope they have integrity and sense about doing it. It seems no one has ever politely given someone new rights or respect in this country without a fight.

The thing is, she has no problems making big dick jokes on her twitter (and TSA groping at the same time), but heaven forbid she hears two guys joking about big dongles to each other.

I think if it was just their twitter pages she wouldn't have cared.

She's done a lot of damage to rep of women in tech here, because she comes across as a bitch who's primary interest is starting fires, driving traffic to her blog and her publicity channels.

that's the frame her detractors have created for her, yes. I don't know how much "damage to the rep of women in tech" she's done though. Unless people are looking for excuses.

oh, right.

 

[kaizoku]

*walks into thread*

reads "she seems like a lot of work"

reads "she can't take a joke"

*backs the fuck away*

I think Courtney Stanton really hit the nail on the head. You can disagree with what she did but there's much more to say about the hostility of tech events to women.

She's done a lot of damage to rep of women in tech here, because she comes across as a bitch who's primary interest is starting fires, driving traffic to her blog and her publicity channels. She's built a whole thing off of being a girl in tech, she's using it as her USP or something. She'll probably use this new found fame to profit off her sexuality in some way.

She's seems incredibly annoying, self-righteous and stubborn. This is not how you earn equality and respect for yourself, never mind on behalf of all women in tech.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

The thing is, she has no problems making big dick jokes on her twitter (and TSA groping at the same time), but heaven forbid she hears two guys joking about big dongles to each other.

Cool, but I'm not interested in her story. I'm interested in the hostility of tech events to women. She responded badly, but she responded to the status quo.

 

[jimi_dini]

I think if it was just their twitter pages she wouldn't have cared.

Her twitter has 13000 followers. Do you really say that the joke of the 2 guys was heard by more than 13000 people? Because that's what you are comparing. Her penis "joke" was probably read by 13000 people, if not even more. Maybe even by young female developers. Who knows.

Cool, but I'm not interested in her story. I'm interested in the hostility of tech events to women. She responded badly, but she responded to the status quo.

I must have missed that. The 2 guys were hostile against her or any female? That changes it completely.

 

[moka]

Cool, but I'm not interested in her story. I'm interested in the hostility of tech events to women. She responded badly, but she responded to the status quo.

There is no hostility against women in general, there's hostility against her though.

That's probably because she did a stupid thing.

 

[massoluk]

Read everything, yeah, if I were in the position, I would fire her too. I can imagine she's not someone very comfortable to hang around with seeing sexism in everything.

 

[Tacitus_]

Cool, but I'm not interested in her story. I'm interested in the hostility of tech events to women. She responded badly, but she responded to the status quo.

Notifying the admins in private, or asking the jokers to be quiet would've been responding to the status quo. But this self proclaimed modern day Jeanne D'Arc of the tech industry went on a faux righteous crusade and like the original one, got burned at the stake for it.