I get that you're trying to be funny, but blatant sexism probably isn't the wisest thing to post.
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Playhaven dev fired for sexual jokes after SendGrid marketer outs him on Twitter
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You really try to push an agenda when you talk to me. I never said all men in the tech industry are misogynistic, I said I don't trust men in the tech industry. There are men who aren't and thats great but statistically its safer to just not trust men in this industry.
Also, its preposterous that you're asking me to "prove" I'm not misogynistic.
Also I have to admit, 4chan found an frighteningly effective way of doing things. Instead of solely empty rape/death threats, they had a clear plan of ddosing their server and boycotting/informing clients of cheaper alternatives (I believe one dude on /b/ had control of a 200k a year setup with them and changed services while telling them they blamed Adria for it solely), with a side dish of the dumb threats.
And actually did the plan successfully.
And actually did the plan successfully.
You don't trust men in the tech industry unless they're proven not misogynistic/misandric, so guilty until proven innocent. I'm giving you the same burden of proof that you give your colleagues, because you love to make generalizations like "don't trust men in the tech industry".
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
I always find it odd when people say this. Coming from other industries, the sex-based dust ups that happen in the tech community wouldn't make it to the HR department in almost anywhere else. Hell they wouldn't make it to an anonymous complaint box. Sexism is so much more rampant and so much less examined in other industries that the tech community is downright progressive by comparison. In terms of sheer numbers there is an issue, one that is partly educational and societal, but trust me, it could be a lot worse.
My thoughts are that the developers were wrong for being childish in a professional setting, that Adria was wrong for flying off to the bully pulpit instead of addressing the issue directly, and that the internet at large is wrong for reacting in the way it did. That reaction backfired on Adria, unfortunately for her, because it seems clear that she meant for the developers to be facing its outrage. Instead of rape jokes and death threats we would have had, I don't know, 'DIE CIS SCUM' or some such.
PlayHaven and SendGrid did what companies do. The truth is, we have no idea whether or not the developer and Adria had prior issues at work, how their roles would be effected by this going forward, or any thing else that went into their decision making process. If I had to guess, it would be that neither were exactly strangers to disciplinary action.
This is the post I was responding to. It's the equivalent of saying "if she hadn't posted the picture, none of this would have happened."
And this was his response, when I questioned the logic of defending Sendgrind's decision to fire Adria.
Yeah, we agree that Adria shouldn't have resorted to Twitter to make her complaints, but as far as I'm concerned her mistake pales in comparison to the mistakes made by Playhaven, Sendgrind, and Anonymous. In the same way that the Developer's mistake of making a dumb joke in poor taste seems insignificant, compared to the decision to post on Twitter.
I don't really see the decisions made by Sendgrid, Playhaven or Anonymous as mistakes. I might not agree with them, but they were surely calculated decisions in their best interests, not mistakes.
Also quotes should be quotes, not your interpretation of what the equivalent of something is.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
I don't think we have enough information to know whether or not the companies made mistakes. I don't think we ever will have enough information, either. It's possible that they overreacted. It's also possible that both were on their last strike as employees. To say that either was fired for their role in this, specifically, is a reach at this point.
Cool silencing technique. If you're going to try and derail or discredit me, please be original. Thanks in Advance.
Cool ignoring the question technique. If you're going to try and derail or discredit me, please be original. Thanks in Advance.
dragonelite
Member
Not really but a lot of programming jargon can be easily interpreted as something sexual or offensive.
actually I know what forking is, and I also have my doubts that "forking" as a "compliment" wasn't the point of that joke. So we have a homophonic references to fuck and dong. See...now I feel like an assistant principal.
I've been that guy...hiding behind the thinnest of sheets because I was playing around with my ass hanging out. When he says "Oh I actually meant fork literally", but then it somehow gets pulled into the humor grouping with dong/dongle similes. It just makes me wonder.
Why should I have to "prove" I'm not a misogynist to a misogynist who will always change the criteria to disqualify me. This is seriously a common tactic to derail and discredit me through arbitrary means. I'm sorry, I'm not dumb enough to fall for this.
I HAVE BEEN BAMBOOZLED.
And it's a common tactic to throw in insults while dodging questions!
there's one in every pile.
Zoe
Member
Perhaps you're in the wrong industry then if you have so little faith. Because the staff at the convention did respond (despite no direct contact), addressed both parties, and observed that apologies were given.
Still, I'm not sure if it was sexual or not, but I was definitely dumb for commenting on something that unless we have the full words could flip meanings in an instant.
threetri333
Banned
Can't we all get along?
On topic, this thread makes me double think what to say in a work place if I ace my phone interview Monday. I like to joke around a bit, but I might regret making those jokes.
She actually does it herself
What a hypocrite.
I want to say that Playhaven's decision to terminate the Developer was not a calculated decision made in their best interest, but seeing as how all of the negative attention and publicity is being placed on Adria Richard's...it's a hard position to defend.
I think their decision was definitely an overreaction, if it was truly based on the jokes, but they're not the ones suffering for this decision. So yeah, I guess it is working out well for them.
I think it's fair to say that Playhaven, Sendgrind and Anonymous have all behaved badly, but you're right about calling them "mistakes." It's only a mistake if you suffer the negative consequences of your bad behavior/decisions. The only people punished in this debacle were Adria and the developer.
I realize that these are the rules but they're also common tools used within society to silence minority critics. The idea that the only argument worth hearing is the "civil" one is ridiculous and an opinion that could only be had by a white man or another person in a privileged position. That said, I'll follow the rules.
I think considering what you say at work is important; its a shared environment and its a place we all want to have a calm and enjoyable time at. The rule of thumb I've always gone by is "will this make ANYONE uncomfortable?" if yes, I just don't say it. I think being mindful of other people and their feelings is easily one of the most professional things to do in the work place.
Thanks for posting this.
faceless007
Member
She actually does it herself
Making sexual jokes on Twitter, where people have to come to your page or follow you to see your tweets, is not the same as making sexual jokes in the middle of a crowd of strangers.
If sexual jokes are wrong and sexist then no matter where you make them they're wrong.
faceless007
Member
Who said that?
I'm pointing out the false equivalence. Do you think the same jokes you would make with your friends are just as appropriate in a professional setting surrounded by strangers?
She herself said the jokes "weren't cool." Several people in this thread have also condemned the jokes and said they're inappropriate, childish, and even sexist.
She also gives implications that she finds the jokes to be sexist with a few of her statements.
It's kind of hypocritical to condemn sexual jokes and then turn and make the same kind of jokes. It's not a matter of whether they're appropriate for a certain setting.
What's the "tech industry"? IT? Anything software related? Anything technology related (may include computers, may also not include computers)? Maybe it's just your company and the employees working there.
that's pretty much the matter.
Exactly. Blasty, unless you want to be hypocritical about everything, you can't be absolutist about almost anything.
I don't know. I don't think it's right to publicly shame someone for making a sexual joke and then turn around and do the same thing.
While twitter is less public than two guys talking behind you, it's not unlikely to show up in your feed because others retweet it, favorite it etc. People from the industry also might follow her just to get news. (she has 13.000 followers)
N
NinjaFridge
Unconfirmed Member
beaten
NovemberMike
Member
I'm going to get back tot his because it's an important point. Racism is a word that has a common definition, and that doesn't include a requirement that it's institutional or that it requires a position of power to be real. There is an attempt here to redefine the term, and we have to examine why. It's not because the term was inexact or caused confusion, it's easy enough to refer to whether racism is institutional or personal, whether it's at a national level or if it's isolated to smaller groups and whether it's something that causes demonstrable harm or if it's more ambiguous. Trying to redefine the term does absolutely nothing to help here. I'm also not seeing a particularly reasonable political reason to try to redefine the term. What seems likely, and what we saw from the tweet, is an attempt to excuse racism by redefining it out of the bad category. The only reason to support this attempt to redefine the word is if you are trying to cover for racists.
cooljeanius
Member
According to his appology, it was exactly 1 joke in total. And yes, it wasn't and isn't sexist. She just found that offensive. Although she used even worse humor a few days before that. The other "joke" was interpreted as a sexual joke by the woman, but wasn't one. And I don't mean sexual. It wasn't even a joke. It was actual tech talk.
I quote
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681
I wonder how it would have played out, if she just complained directly.
"Dude, that's not cool."
"What?"
"You said that you would like to fuck that guy."
"What? I didn't say that."
"I definitely heard you saying it."
"I said I would fork this guys repo."
"There, you said it again."
"You know what forking means? I can show you."
"And now you are sexually assaulting me, rapist!!! police!!!"
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
I don't think sociology would be the right department either, but it's definitely closer than political science.
I am an overly defensive product of a political science department <_<
Enosh
Member
she ants to free france of english oppression?
I am with her!
WorriedCitizen
Member
Mumei is confusing racism (a belief system that is in peoples heads) with racial discrimination (public policy based on racism).
cooljeanius
Member
Hey dude your white knight armor is in the back you passed all the test. Keep heading in this direction and you could make commander one day. One day the tech industry will be run by only women, every game will be scored a 10. Women never make jokes only those evil men.
Kitschkraft
Member
Speaking as an African American (I really hate this shit, your view isn't more or less worthy of attention), I find his view completely sound.
I don't know, I think there's quite a bit of difference between racism and institutional racism. Anyone of any race can be racist, but only the people in a position of power can impose institutional racism. It's up to you to decide which is worse.
When women complain directly they're regularly not taken seriously. Women are often accused of not having a sense of humor or, like when white nerd men feel encroached upon, resort to awful threats.
When you care about the way women are treated you get called a white knight. Dude, I'm gay; I the only thing I have in this argument is that I care about women as people.
The "redefining of racism" as you call it is really just accurately adjusting the definition to what it really is. The current definition was created by people in a position of power over minorities, regardless of whether or not they want to admit it. All I can really say is that privileged people do not have the right to define something that they themselves do not experience and most likely never will experience. Since the people defining these things generally aren't part of the oppressed party there is no way they can fully understand the extent of something as far reaching as racism.
Directly doesn't even mean with those 2 developers. But maybe with staff of the conference and they could then talk to them. Would have to be male staff of course, because those nerds would obviously not take female staff seriously either. But then maybe the conference male staff is also full of white male nerds and you simply can't trust those buggers.
You need to account for context. I can have sex in my bedroom, but not in the park.
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