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[Justified]

Would that make The Order second party?

I thought 1st party was internal studio exclusive

2nd party was external studio exclusive

3rd party was external multi-platform

Or am I wrong? Second party has always seemed like a bit of s grey area.

"First party" is applied in 2 ways The Dev studio, and the Game itself. So it depends on which you are talking about.

You hardly see Games themselves labeled as first party though. When a 3rd Party Dev makes and exclusive games (that the Platform holder funds), we typically call that 2nd Party. In actuality that is a First Party game

"2nd party" is a term created to distinguished between First Party Dev, and First Party Game pretty much

 

[Opiate]

You're using double standards here.
You can't state Nintendo's first party games are systemsellers for the Wii U and at the same time state that better selling games like FIFA, CoD, GTA aren't systemsellers for the PS4.

I know I wasn't the person you were talking to, but I'm not sure why the answer can't be both.

That is, FIFA can sell systems. So can Wii Fit. Call of Duty can sell systems. So can Nintendogs. GTA can sell systems. So can Puzzle and Dragons.

I don't think people stop and consider whether a game is exclusive or not when they buy a system. They see a/some games they like, and buy it. If that game happens to be exclusive, then whatever effect it has is concentrated entirely on one platform. If it's not, it's dispersed. A mainline Mario game may sell 1M systems, and all of that will be concentrated on Nintendo's platform. A mainline Call of Duty may also sell 1M systems, but those will be dispersed across Playstation, Xbox and PC.

It feels like people want this to be either/or, where exclusives sell systems or multiplatform games sell systems. I don't understand why the answer can't be both: compelling games sell systems, whether they happen to be multiplatform or not.

 

[Goodacre0081]

The official line is that Respawn contacted Sony about bringing the game to their next console. Sony wasn't ready to talk about it yet, but suggested putting it on the Vita. Respawn then contacted MS about it and they were ready to talk. Down the line EA determined that they were going to need a first party investor to help launch the game, so they made a deal with MS and that's what ended up making it exclusive.

that was the initial deal to get the game made and launch first on XB1. then in October of 2013, MS made a second deal with EA to keep the game exclusive "for the life of the title"

 

[Sangetsu-II]

Please show Ready At Dawn: http://www.worldwidestudios.net/about-us

works exclusively on the SCE portfolio of computer entertainment products.

Isn't that what Ready At Dawn already do?

- Daxter
- GOW PSP
- The Order

All 3 of those are exclusive SCE portfolio of computer entertainment products.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Isn't that what Ready At Dawn already do?

- Daxter
- GOW PSP
- The Order

All 3 of those are exclusive SCE portfolio of computer entertainment products.

They ported Okami to the Wii.

 

[Justified]

Isn't that what Ready At Dawn already do?

- Daxter
- GOW PSP
- The Order

All 3 of those are exclusive SCE portfolio of computer entertainment products.

Yea but not by contract. You are missing Ōkami on your list which was for WII also

By you standard NIS (Nippon Ichi Software) is a Sony WWS

 

[Sangetsu-II]

They ported Okami to the Wii.

Started out on the PS2 though...Technically still SCE Portafolio albeit not exclusive

 

[Birgitte2004]

"First party" is applied in 2 ways The Dev studio, and the Game itself. So it depends on which you are talking about.

You hardly see Games themselves labeled as first party though. When a 3rd Party Dev makes and exclusive games (that the Platform holder funds), we typically call that 2nd Party. In actuality that is a First Party game

"2nd party" is a term created to distinguished between First Party Dev, and First Party Game pretty much

First party traditionally meant console maker owned and developed. Third party meant neither owned nor developed by the console maker. Second party being anything in between.

I do not understand why people always want to complicate the matter. Until like 3 years ago I never even heard of the concept of a split between first party dev and first party game, and now people bring it up fairly frequently.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Started out on the PS2 though...Technically still SCE Portafolio albeit not exclusive

Okami is a Capcom game, Sony has nothing to do with it.

 

[Justified]

Started out on the PS2 though...Technically still SCE Portafolio albeit not exclusive

Whatever the case, thats not what makes DEVs part of WWS. The most technical definition is " wholly owned development studios within SCE"

 

[Deadpool_X]

Started out on the PS2 though...Technically still SCE Portafolio albeit not exclusive

So then, by this train of thought, Final Fantasy is still a Nintendo series, since it started out on Nes. Same with Dragon Quest, Castlevania, Mega Man, Resident Evil 4, etc.

 

[slavesnyder]

that was the initial deal to get the game made and launch first on XB1. then in October of 2013, MS made a second deal with EA to keep the game exclusive "for the life of the title"

Is there still life in the title?

 

[Sangetsu-II]

Okami is a Capcom game, Sony has nothing to do with it.

Looked up the info, you are right it's a Capcom game but it was made by CloverStudio so Okami is not RAD property. That means RAD has only worked on exclusive SCE Portafolio. You may not consider them part of WWS but they have been there since forever. (Part of Santa Monica External Studio)

 

[Justified]

First party traditionally meant console maker owned and developed. Third party meant neither owned nor developed by the console maker. Second party being anything in between.

I do not understand why people always want to complicate the matter. Until like 3 years ago I never even heard of the concept of a split between first party dev and first party game, and now people bring it up fairly frequently.

Because technically thats the case. Its just too convoluted to distinguish in discussion. Thus 2nd Party was born. 2nd party is not an official capacity. Its a term used to not "complicate the matter" as you say

 

[Justified]

Looked up the info, you are right it's a Capcom game but it was made by CloverStudio so Okami is not RAD property. That means RAD has only worked on exclusive SCE Portafolio. You may not consider them part of WWS but they have been there since forever. (Part of Santa Monica External Studio)

You are missing the point. "Worked On" is not the metric of being a WWS. You would never see Naughty Dog porting Wonderful 101 to the 3DS for Nintendo

 

[Sangetsu-II]

So then, by this train of thought, Final Fantasy is still a Nintendo series, since it started out on Nes. Same with Dragon Quest, Castlevania, Mega Man, Resident Evil 4, etc.

Sorry about all the misconception I created, have never been more quoted on Gaf since now. No need to throw more salt in this thread but RAD has only worked for WWS. It's like you working your entire life in a Company and not being included in the company wall. People still know you've been there.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Looked up the info, you are right it's a Capcom game but it was made by CloverStudio so Okami is not RAD property. That means RAD has only worked on exclusive SCE Portafolio. You may not consider them part of WWS but they have been there since forever. (Part of Santa Monica External Studio)

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. RAD ported Okami to the Wii so they worked on an property to is not own by Sony, because they're independent. Same as Quantic Dream and all independent developper Sony contracted to create games.

Yes they do have a special relationship with Sony but that doesn't change the fact that they are independent.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. RAD ported Okami to the Wii so they worked on an property to is not own by Sony, because they're independent. Same as Quantic Dream and all independent developper Sony contracted to create games.

Yes they do have a special relationship with Sony but that doesn't change the fact that they are independent.

But Quantic Dream is different, they are fully independent. RAD is part of Sony Santa Monica External Studios, they are independent yes, but they only work as a extra limb for Santa Monica meaning that they are in a way part of WWS unlike Quantic Dream.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

But Quantic Dream is different, they are fully independent. RAD is part of Sony Santa Monica External Studios, they are independent yes, but they only work as a extra limb for Santa Monica meaning that they are in a way part of WWS unlike Quantic Dream.

RAD is independent as well

 

[Sangetsu-II]

RAD is independent as well

I already said that, read again.

 

[EGM1966]

"First party" is applied in 2 ways The Dev studio, and the Game itself. So it depends on which you are talking about.

You hardly see Games themselves labeled as first party though. When a 3rd Party Dev makes and exclusive games (that the Platform holder funds), we typically call that 2nd Party. In actuality that is a First Party game

"2nd party" is a term created to distinguished between First Party Dev, and First Party Game pretty much

So The Order is a first party game by a second party studio - if - Sony owns the IP? and it's a second party game by a second party studio if the studio owns the IP?

As you note I've mainly seen it applied to the developer - as here with some claiming (incorrectly I believe) RaD are 1st party and a WWS studio.

Are these just terms used in the industry without a firm definition but a mostly adhered to one?

Curious as it seems to cause a lot of confusion vs the obvious 1st party game/studio and 3rd party game/studio examples.

 

[Justified]

But Quantic Dream is different, they are fully independent. RAD is part of Sony Santa Monica External Studios, they are independent yes, but they only work as a extra limb for Santa Monica meaning that they are in a way part of WWS unlike Quantic Dream.

I think your are starting to troll now......

Sony Santa Monica External Studios is still Sony Santa Monica. Thats just a branch that helps out external studios, RAD in the case of The Order.

RAD is fully outside of the confines of SONY

 

[Justified]

So The Order is a first party game by a second party studio - if - Sony owns the IP? and it's a second party game by a second party studio if the studio owns the IP?

As you note I've mainly seen it applied to the developer - as here with some claiming (incorrectly I believe) RaD are 1st party and a WWS studio.

Are these just terms used in the industry without a firm definition but a mostly adhered to one?

Curious as it seems to cause a lot of confusion vs the obvious 1st party game/studio and 3rd party game/studio examples.

The Order is a first party game by a third party studio

And yes those saying "RaD are 1st party and a WWS studio." are incorrect

 

[Mass_Pincup]

But Quantic Dream is different, they are fully independent. RAD is part of Sony Santa Monica External Studios, they are independent yes, but they only work as a extra limb for Santa Monica meaning that they are in a way part of WWS unlike Quantic Dream.

RAD is independent the same way Quantic Dream is. The Sony Santa Monica External Studio label, only mean that they received help from SSM like Giant Sparrow, Superbot and Thatgamecompany.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

I think your are Starting to troll now......

Sony Santa Monica External Studios is still Sony Santa Monica. Thats just a branch that helps out external studios RAD in the case of The Order.

RAD is fully outside of the confines of SONY

Serious here with no sense of troll, As you clearly mentioned right now Sony Santa Monica External Studios is still Sony Santa Monica, correct? Would that mean that RAD being part of their External Studios make their work part of WWS? If they have only put out work for WWS for the entire studios life with Santa Monica wouldn't they be included as part of WWS too?

Going by the example I gave about you being in a company your entire life and not being on the company's wall but still being recognized as that guy.

 

[DieH@rd]

But Quantic Dream is different, they are fully independent. RAD is part of Sony Santa Monica External Studios, they are independent yes, but they only work as a extra limb for Santa Monica meaning that they are in a way part of WWS unlike Quantic Dream.

No. SSM External Studios was PUBLISHER of Order 1886. Nothing more. RAD is totally independent, but maybe they have 3-game deal with Sony [same as Quantic].

 

[FF Seraphim]

God... reading through this thread is well interesting to say the least. I am looking forward to see how well The Order sells in the NPD thread and the reactions to it.

As for RaD I would consider them a 2nd party since they have only been working on Sony Platforms but in reality they are fully independent to work on whatever they want.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Serious here with no sense of troll, As you clearly mentioned right now Sony Santa Monica External Studios is still Sony Santa Monica, correct? Would that mean that RAD being part of their External Studios make their work part of WWS? If they have only put out work for WWS for the entire studios life with Santa Monica wouldn't they be included as part of WWS too?

Going by the example I gave about you being in a company your entire life and not being on the company's wall but still being recognized as that guy.

RAD isn't a part of SSM external studios. SSM provides services to independent developers whether it be producers or actual development help. In the case of The Order, I believe it was producers for milestones or something of that nature.

 

[Justified]

Serious here with no sense of troll, As you clearly mentioned right now Sony Santa Monica External Studios is still Sony Santa Monica, correct? Would that mean that RAD being part of their External Studios make their work part of WWS? If they have only put out work for WWS for the entire studios life with Santa Monica wouldn't they be included as part of WWS too?

Going by the example I gave about you being in a company your entire life and not being on the company's wall but still being recognized as that guy.

RAD is not apart of the External Studios branch.

Sony Santa Monica External Studios is only a branch, a department if you will, of Sony Santa Monica. These are devs that work fully for SSM that branch out and help 3rd party DEV studio, RAD being one case. It is not some group of external DEV studios

 

[Sangetsu-II]

RAD is not apart of the External Studios branch.

Sony Santa Monica External Studios is only a branch, a department if you will, of Sony Santa Monica. These are devs that work full for SSM that branch out and help 3rd party DEV studio, RAD being one case. It is not some group of external DEV studios

RAD isn't a part of SSM external studios. SSM provides services to independent developers whether it be producers or actual development help. In the case of The Order, I believe it was producers for milestones or something of that nature.

No. SSM External Studios was PUBLISHER of Order 1886. Nothing more. RAD is totally independent, but maybe they have 3-game deal with Sony [same as Quantic].

Alright, thank you for all the information. I will drop my RAD being 1st party thought. What would a Dev that only works on one manufacturers platforms be called then?

 

[Justified]

Alright, thank you for all the information. I will drop my RAD being 1st party thought. What would a Dev that only works on one manufacturers platforms be called then?

3rd Party that develops 1st Party games officially

2nd party for clarity

 

[LowEndTorque]

Good, use your aggressive feelings, Let the hate flow through you.

So voting with your wallet = let the hate flow through you now? Cool.

 

[BasilZero]

Greatness is here.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Alright, thank you for all the information. I will drop my RAD being 1st party thought. What would a Dev that only works on one manufacturers platforms be called then?

Why are you ignoring the fact that they got contracted by Capcom to port a PS2 game to the Wii?

 

[Sangetsu-II]

3rd Party that develops 1st Party games officially

2nd party for clarity

Alright so by those terms RAD is 2nd Party and Quantic Dream is 3rd Party because they worked on Indigo Propehcy/Farenheit multiplaform correct?

 

[Ingueferroque]

Ive only played The Order for maybe an hour after it came out, but it is so astonishing to see/play it on Vita. Not my type of game, just bought it as a tech demo.

 

[EGM1966]

3rd Party that develops 1st Party games officially

2nd party for clarity

Ah. That's clearer (I think).

To me if you talk about 1st and 3rd there's gotta be some reason that involves a 2nd.

Technical though doesn't this imply the usage of 3rd party is a bit unnecessary?

Seems we have 1st or 2nd part studios (internal and external) making either 1st party or 2nd party games (exclusive or non-exclusive).

I wonder why the term 3rd party came into use? Again not questioning souch as curious. A different industries lingo is interesting to clarify.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

Why are you ignoring the fact that they got contracted by Capcom to port a PS2 game to the Wii?

Well personally, because:

1) It wasn't their property so they didn't create assets for the game.
2) It was a port.

Where I'm getting at here is if you didn't make the IP, never created any new gameplay and it was a straight port with added wii controller support would you really call it your game?

 

[Amentallica]

Man, some people in this thread, as with so many other threads, are truly unbelievable.

You people who are incapable of understanding why the PS4 is selling need to stop spouting disingenuous bullshit such as that the PS4's library has not a single compelling title to warrant a purchase. Is it that difficult to accept that people can appreciate different titles? Your preferences aren't universal, and it is ignorant to assume that people should like the same things you do. But I also can't help but to feel that out of all of the titles available right now, if those of you find that there is not a single game that interests you, then your tastes are rather narrow and close minded. Some Kubrick-complex shit going on.

 

[Justified]

Alright so by those terms RAD is 2nd Party and Quantic Dream is 3rd Party because they worked on Indigo Propehcy/Farenheit multiplaform correct?

The term 2nd party is case by case, which is why its not an official term

In the Order's case yeas RAD was 2nd party (officially a 1st party game by a 3rd party Dev)

In Indigo Prophecy case just, straight 3rd party because it was multi-platform by an Independent studio.

We are starting to take this thread too far down the rabbit-hole. I would suggest doing some google searches, and reading if you are still lost.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Well personally, because:

1) It wasn't their property so they didn't create assets for the game.
2) It was a port.

Where I'm getting at here is if you didn't make the IP, never created any new gameplay and it was a straight port with added wii controller support would you really call it your game?

You're right, it's not their game, but the fact that they worked on someone else property shows that they are not a part of Sony WWS. Can you show me one of Sony owned studio that worked on a non Sony IP and ported it on a non Sony hardware?

 

[thebloo]

Would that make The Order second party?

I thought 1st party was internal studio exclusive

2nd party was external studio exclusive

3rd party was external multiplatform

Or am I wrong? Second party has always semed like a bit of s grey area.

Just dance 1 was an exclusive Wii title. It was still 3rd party. Platforms have nothing to do with it. SOE games were 1st party games, even if they were on both PC and PS3.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

The term 2nd party is case by case, which is why its not an official term

In the Order's case yeas RAD was 2nd party (officially a 1st party game by a 3rd party Dev)

In Indigo Prophecy case just, straight 3rd party because it was multi-platform by an Independent studio.

We are starting to take this thread too far down the rabbit-hole. I would suggest doing some google searches, and reading if you are still lost.

It's just a bit confusing BECAUSE of the fact it's case by case. So if we don't make an official term for game/devs that do this, we will always have these discussions which frankly as you stated takes the thread too far.

 

[CONRAD]

Time to come with the hits, Sony!

 

[Ingueferroque]

Time to come with the hits, Sony!

Hmm

 

[Sangetsu-II]

You're right, it's not their game, but the fact that they worked on someone else property shows that they are not a part of Sony WWS. Can you show me one of Sony owned studio that worked on a non Sony IP and ported it on a non Sony hardware?

All of SOE Games?

They were a Sony Owned Studio that worked on non Sony IP's taking them to PC but where still part of Sony no?

 

[Justified]

Ah. That's clearer (I think).

To me if you talk about 1st and 3rd there's gotta be some reason that involves a 2nd.

Technical though doesn't this imply the usage of 3rd party is a bit unnecessary?

Seems we have 1st or 2nd part studios (internal and external) making either 1st party or 2nd party games (exclusive or non-exclusive).

I wonder why the term 3rd party came into use? Again not questioning souch as curious. A different industries lingo is interesting to clarify.

Because If I do something thats 1st party. if somebody does some for me that 3rd Party

These are just basic point-of view definitions

When a 1st party, views itself or talks in 3rd person by definition thats 2nd Party, doesnt really work in Video game ownership.

So 2nd party is known as 3rd party Devs making 1st Party games, on someones behalf

 

[Mass_Pincup]

All of SOE Games?

They were a Sony Owned Studio that worked on non Sony IP's taking them to PC but where still part of Sony no?

All those IPs were owned by Sony. They also weren't a part of WWS.

 

[EGM1966]

Because If I do something thats 1st party. if somebody does some for me that 3rd Party

These are just basic point-of view definitions

When a 1st party, views itself or talks in 3rd person by definition thats 2nd Party, doesnt really work in Video game ownership.

So 2nd party is known as 3rd party Devs making 1st Party games, on someones behalf

Thanks. Got it. Hadn't thought of it as a perspective (1st vs 3rd) just options so it always read a little odd to me, like saying we have option 1 or option 3. And now I see where 2nd perspective comes in as an identifier of specific cases.

Cheers.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

All those IPs were owned by Sony. They also weren't a part of WWS.

They aren't owned by Sony or else they would still have them. SOE owned there IP's that's why they still working on their games.

That's also a good point, why was SOE a Sony Owned Studio and not a part of WWS?