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[SeraphJan]

Why we need a PS5 Pro for? We varely have PS5 exclusive games

We don't have these game currently doesn't mean it won't 1 or 2 years later, Pro isn't releasing this year either, so what is your problem?

Most 9th gen game that uses UE5 are going to struggle maintaining good framerate, the Matrix demo is only at 30 fps, Black Myth is also reported to struggle with frame rate with its internal build on PS5, many cross-gen game cannot run at 4k60fps, even Demon Souls a launch title needs to run at 1440p internally in order to maintain steady 60fps, So a PS5 Pro by 2024 is pretty reasonable to me, technology does not stop evolving simply because of stock issue.

If you are comparing to PS4, the main difference is people are starting to adapting to 60 fps and raytracing in gaming.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

If Half life Alyx is what you are expecting for PSVR2 experience, yeah, I would say base PS5 is enough. But I hope with a Pro model release, we could experience visual quality close to that of the Matrix demo (which made by UE5)

For VR it needs to process 2 image at the same time which require more resources, the Matrix runs at only 30 fps on base PS5, but for VR you need around 70-90 to not get motion sicked, ("you could search motion sickness + VR" for better explanation for this problem).

This is why I expected a PS5 Pro model with RDNA 3 (which is nearly double the performance of RDNA 2) combined with temporal method to utilized the full capability of the PSVR2's hardware spec (2,000 x 2,040 per-eye 90-120hz)

PSVR2's eye tracking will allow for the system to render at only a fraction of the headset's native resolution with little discernible IQ differences to the user, using foveated rendering and VSR techniques.


It seems to me that this feature is being grossly underestimated. The PS5 can e.g. render a small 500*500 pixel square in the part of each panel where our eyes are looking, and for the rest of the panel it renders at a quarter of the resolution of the panel. Here's a rough explanation on how foveated rendering in VR will look like:

Again this is just an estimation on how it would render, but eye tracking + foveated rendering should cut the number of pixels actually being rendered by well over 50%, and with more aggressive VRS on the non-focus areas the rendering cost could go even lower. This is a game changer for VR performance on pure rasterization (i.e. without raytracing which doesn't scale linearly with the number of pixels being processed).

That's not true, RDNA3 (or RDNA4 depend on Pro model's release window) is way more powerful than RDNA2

AMD already stated the performance uplift for RDNA3 @5nm and it's +50% at same power.

This means either the PS5 Pro / X Pro consume ~33% more power (1.33 * 1.5 = 2) or the proposed 2x performance boost for mid-gens will need to wait for 3nm availability.

 

[SeraphJan]

PSVR2's eye tracking will allow for the system to render at only a fraction of the headset's native resolution with little discernible IQ differences to the user, using foveated rendering and VSR techniques.


It seems to me that this feature is being grossly underestimated. The PS5 can e.g. render a small 500*500 pixel square in the part of each panel where our eyes are looking, and for the rest of the panel it renders at a quarter of the resolution of the panel. Here's a rough explanation on how foveated rendering in VR will look like:

Again this is just an estimation on how it would render, but eye tracking + foveated rendering should cut the number of pixels actually being rendered by well over 50%, and with more aggressive VRS on the non-focus areas the rendering cost could go even lower. This is a game changer for VR performance on pure rasterization (i.e. without raytracing which doesn't scale linearly with the number of pixels being processed).







AMD already stated the performance uplift for RDNA3 @5nm and it's +50% at same power.

This means either the PS5 Pro / X Pro consume ~33% more power (1.33 * 1.5 = 2) or the proposed 2x performance boost for mid-gens will need to wait for 3nm availability.

VRS is a good technology, just like AWS, Temporal, but how will VRS affect the viewing experience and how much performance could it save is still in theory, plus we have ray tracing to worry about this gen, RDNA2 is terrible at ray tracing performance, even if the rasterization is +50% per watt for RDNA3, the ray tracing performance enhancement should not be ignored.

We still don't know when is the time windows for their mid gen refresh, it could be RDNA3 or it could be RDNA4, we simply don't know at this point. But I'm down with a mid gen refresh, its day 1 for me.

I remember back in 2016 people hated the idea of a PS4 Pro console, but in retrospective most people changed their opinion.

 

[yurinka]

It might be enough for cross gen, but think of those game that will be releasing later, it will be 3 year for PS5 when PSVR2 release, although I doubt VR game will reach the graphic fidelity of that Matrix demo, but with how much hardware power UE5 consume in general, I believe a Pro is very necessary.

Once these next gen game engines get optimized PS5 will be able to run something similar to the Matrix demo at steady 45fps and PSVR will transform it into 90fps. And this is not counting tricks to boost performance with foveated rendering, new resolution scaling techniques that may appear etc.

The Matrix demo was made on an unfinished first version of Unreal Engine 5. Unreal Engine 5 will be way more optimized by then.

We still don't know when is the time windows for their mid gen refresh, it could be RDNA3 or it could be RDNA4, we simply don't know at this point. But I'm down with a mid gen refresh, its day 1 for me.

With the chips shortage thing, the insane demand, the longer than usual crossgen period due to many reasons (PS4 being so successful and still having a huge, way bigger than usual at this point active userbase, next gen costs being too expensive/requiring too much time to build next gen engines this time, economical crysis...) and the paradigm shift that this gen offers in terms of tech (games will need years to showcase it because requires huge changes in their workflow and game engines) pretty likely we won't see mid gen refreshes.

Normal SKUs will continue for longer and if something some day will be replaced by a slim version that does the same but uses less chips/eaier to find materials. I think RDNA3/RDNA4 should be a talk for a PS6 instead of for PS5 Pro.

 

[SeraphJan]

Once these next gen game engines get optimized PS5 will be able to run something similar to the Matrix demo at steady 45fps and PSVR will transform it into 90fps. And this is not counting tricks to boost performance with foveated rendering, new resolution scaling techniques that may appear etc.

The Matrix demo was made on an unfinished first version of Unreal Engine 5. Unreal Engine 5 will be way more optimized by then.

If you think optimization could fix all the problem I've mentioned here:

We don't have these game currently doesn't mean it won't 1 or 2 years later, Pro isn't releasing this year either, so what is your problem?

Most 9th gen game that uses UE5 are going to struggle maintaining good framerate, the Matrix demo is only at 30 fps, Black Myth is also reported to struggle with frame rate with its internal build on PS5, many cross-gen game cannot run at 4k60fps, even Demon Souls a launch title needs to run at 1440p internally in order to maintain steady 60fps, So a PS5 Pro by 2024 is pretty reasonable to me, technology does not stop evolving simply because of stock issue.

If you are comparing to PS4, the main difference is people are starting to adapting to 60 fps and raytracing in gaming.

Plus the inherently bad ray tracing performance RDNA2 had, I just have to admire your optimism, but we will see how it turns out.

I'm sure people in Sony worry about these issue more than we do, if they decide to release Pro model they must thought everything through, we will have to wait till around 2024 and see, for people satisfied with their base model they don't have to buy the mid gen refresh, simple as that.

 

[cyberheater]

According to Android Central, the Unity talk revealed that GPU frame times are 3.6x faster when using foveated rendering with eye-tracking on PSVR 2.

That's a huge boost to performance

 

[SeraphJan]

With the chips shortage thing, the insane demand, the longer than usual crossgen period due to many reasons (PS4 being so successful and still having a huge, way bigger than usual at this point active userbase, next gen costs being too expensive/requiring too much time to build next gen engines this time, economical crysis...) and the paradigm shift that this gen offers in terms of tech (games will need years to showcase it because requires huge changes in their workflow and game engines) pretty likely we won't see mid gen refreshes.

Normal SKUs will continue for longer and if something some day will be replaced by a slim version that does the same but uses less chips/eaier to find materials. I think RDNA3/RDNA4 should be a talk for a PS6 instead of for PS5 Pro.

On the contrary I get this feeling that this gen might last longer than we thought, the initial chip shortage might contribute to that, rebranding to PS6 and built its user base from ground up is much more costing than mid gen refresh

 

[yurinka]

On the contrary I get this feeling that this gen might last longer than we thought, the initial chip shortage might contribute to that, rebranding to PS6 and built its user base from ground up is much more costing than mid gen refresh

I think the current generation will last longer than usual, but that it won't stop PS6, with its proper related tech jump, to be released in 2027, as always 7 years after the previous one. I think we'll see PS4+PS5 crossgen games from 2020 until 2024 and that we'll see PS5+PS6 crossgen games from 2027 to 2031 or so.

I think PS5 gen will offer a paradigm shift and that PS6 will offer more of it so games will be easily scalable, because I think PS6 will improve specially in lighting and RT to basically reach cg movie vfx like photorealism plus faster streaming and more memory to make denser worlds. I think that time they won't need to heavily increase polycount or texture quality because with PS5 they'll basically achieve what 4K can show, and specially using upcoming rescaling tech won't be needed to natively render at 4K because not even Digital Foundry will notice it.

 

[SeraphJan]

I think the current generation will last longer than usual, but that it won't stop PS6, with its proper related tech jump, to be released in 2027, as always 7 years after the previous one. I think we'll see PS4+PS5 crossgen games from 2020 until 2024 and that we'll see PS5+PS6 crossgen games from 2027 to 2031 or so.

I think PS5 gen will offer a paradigm shift and that PS6 will offer more of it so games will be easily scalable, because I think PS6 will improve specially in lighting and RT to basically reach cg movie vfx like photorealism plus faster streaming and more memory to make denser worlds. I think that time they won't need to heavily increase polycount or texture quality because with PS5 they'll basically achieve what 4K can show, and specially using upcoming rescaling tech won't be needed to natively render at 4K because not even Digital Foundry will notice it.

So you believe, the base PS5 model will carry all the way through 2027? That's going to be hell lots of pressure on RDNA2 architecture

 

[yurinka]

So you believe, the base PS5 model will carry all the way through 2027? That's going to be hell lots of pressure on RDNA2 architecture

I believe that as Sony did in all PS generations they will discontinue the base PS5 over 10 years after its release.

Somewhere in the middle it will be replaced by a PS5 Slim with cheaper components but still using RDNA2. I don't see why they should change their CPU in the middle of a generation. And well, RDNA2 will be used in a ton of other devices outside PS5.

 

[Loxus]

So you believe, the base PS5 model will carry all the way through 2027? That's going to be hell lots of pressure on RDNA2 architecture

The PS4 with a Jaguar CPU and a 1.84 TF GCN2 GPU still going strong with the up coming release of God of War Ragnarok.

PS4 holding all that pressure for 9 years, possibly 10. What makes you think the PS5 with a Zen 2 CPU and a 10.2 TF RDNA 2 GPU can't hold on for 7?

 

[SeraphJan]

The PS4 with a Jaguar CPU and a 1.84 TF GCN2 GPU still going strong with the up coming release of God of War Ragnarok.

PS4 holding all that pressure for 9 years, possibly 10. What makes you think the PS5 with a Zen 2 CPU and a 10.2 TF RDNA 2 GPU can't hold on for 7?

PS4 Pro existed exact for that reason, wtf are you even talking about? We were discussing if base PS5 model alone could hold 9th gen without mid gen refresh. By your logic even PS3 or PS2 still holding pressure since there are still people playing it. Hell even Sega Genesis are still releasing new game last couple of years.

If you enjoy playing GoW-R on base PS4, go ahead nobody is stopping you

 

[Loxus]

PS4 Pro existed exact for that reason, wtf are you even talking about? We were discussing if base PS5 model alone could hold 9th gen without mid gen refresh. By your logic even PS3 or PS2 still holding pressure since there are still people playing it. Hell even Sega Genesis are still releasing new game last couple of years.

Is God of War Ragnarok releasing on PS2 & 3?

You claim the PS5 can't hold up for 7 years but yet the base PS4 has some of the best looking games and only has a 1.82 TF GCN2 GPU and holding on for 9 years so far.

That alone should tell you a PS5 Pro is only wanted but not needed.

When looking at the PS4 vs PS4 Pro specs and performance in games. A PS5 Pro is a waste of money and resources, especially with VRS and upscaling techniques.

It would be better investing that extra money and resources into the PS6.
e.g. a bigger system cooling budget that we can actually get a all in one water cooling system.

This would result in a smaller, cooler and higher clock CPU/GPU console.

 

[SeraphJan]

Is God of War Ragnarok releasing on PS2 & 3?

My pardon for not responding to rest of your comment because I'm tired of repeating the same thing that I've already said in my previous comment (albeit to different person)

So I'll just address this alone, what does a single game release on something has anything to do with if a hardware is outdated or not? If a new game decide to release on an outdated hardware does not suddenly make that hardware not outdated. Why downplay the existence of PS4 pro? Sega Genesis had some new game released too, am I going to say that system holds up for 33 years and still not outdated?

I still don't understand this "anti choice" narrative. You could have fun with your base PS4, its not like anyone is stopping you enjoying it.

 

[64bitmodels]

Wooooo, psvr2!!!
I hope it's compatible with pc so I can use it as a PC headset for vrchat and other games

 

[Loxus]

My pardon for not responding to rest of your comment because I'm tired of repeating the same thing that I've already said in my previous comment (albeit to different person)

So I'll just address this alone, what does a single game release on something has anything to do with if a hardware is outdated or not? If a new game decide to release on an outdated hardware does not suddenly make that hardware not outdated. Why downplay the existence of PS4 pro? Sega Genesis had some new game released too, am I going to say that system holds up for 33 years and still not outdated?

I still don't understand this "anti choice" narrative? You could have fun with your base PS4, its not like anyone is stopping you enjoying it.

You still don't understand, do you?
The PS3 lifespan was 11 years, the base PS4 will be the same.
But yet you think the PS5 can't hold up for 7 years?

 

[SeraphJan]

You still don't understand, do you?
The PS3 lifespan was 11 years, the base PS4 will be the same.
But yet you think the PS5 can't hold up for 7 years?

How do you define life span? New game release?
If that's the case PS4 combined with PS4 Pro had the same lifespan which reached 10, not base PS4 alone, so what you are saying is base PS5 without a Pro model should reaching 10 (remember without a Pro model, base PS5 would have to be in service after PS6 launch and act as a cross gen platform for around identical amount of time like how all previous console are), stop misleading the numbers.

 

[R6Rider]

How do you define life span? New game release?
If that's the case PS4 combined with PS4 Pro had the same lifespan which reached 10, not base PS4 alone, so what you are saying is base PS5 without a Pro model should reaching 10, stop misleading the numbers.

They never released games only for PS4 Pro, so the PS4 lifespan applies to base PS4.

And no, there is no need for a PS5 Pro.

 

[Loxus]

How do you define life span? New game release?
If that's the case PS4 combined with PS4 Pro had the same lifespan which reached 10, not base PS4 alone, so what you are saying is base PS5 without a Pro model should reaching 10 (remember without a Pro model, base PS5 would have to be in service after PS6 launch and act as a cross gen platform for around identical amount of time like how all previous console are), stop misleading the numbers.

No, I'm trying to tell you the PS5 can run PSVR 2 games comfortably in 2027 without a PS5 Pro.

Edit:
In fact, PSVR 2 games will be running fine on PS5 in 2030.

 

[SeraphJan]

They never released games only for PS4 Pro, so the PS4 lifespan applies to base PS4.

And no, there is no need for a PS5 Pro.

I'm not saying its stop releasing for base PS4, but why down play PS4 Pro? For cross-gen experience are you telling me base PS4 had the same experience as PS4 Pro? Cause many people will disagree with you.

Again I'm Pro-choice, if you hated a PS5 pro, don't buy it if it releases, but I will buy it day one, end of debate.

 

[R6Rider]

I'm not saying its stop releasing for base PS4, but why down play PS4 Pro? For cross-gen experience are you telling me base PS4 had the same experience PS4 Pro? Cause many people will disagree with you.

Nobody is saying that. Obviously the PS4 Pro is better than base PS4.

 

[SeraphJan]

No, I'm trying to tell you the PS5 can run PSVR 2 games comfortably in 2027 without a PS5 Pro.

The PS4 with a Jaguar CPU and a 1.84 TF GCN2 GPU still going strong with the up coming release of God of War Ragnarok.

If comfortably you mean using a base PS4 model to play GoW-R, count me out

 

[SeraphJan]

Nobody is saying that. Obviously the PS4 Pro is better than base PS4.

Clearly the one I'm replying to doesn't wish to mentioned PS4 Pro at all, which in his claim, Base PS4 alone "holding the pressure" for entire 10 years.

 

[Loxus]

If comfortably you mean using a base PS4 model to play GoW-R, count me out

So you think the PS4 Pro is much more powerful than the PS4?
Have you not seen the specs?

 

[DeepEnigma]

That's a huge boost to performance

That is pretty impressive and hopefully translates into retaining the similar fidelity to non VR games.

 

[SeraphJan]

So you think the PS4 Pro is much more powerful than the PS4?
Have you not seen the specs?

I don't think PS4 Pro is much more powerful, but its powerful enough to not turn me off playing GoW-R on it (If I can't get a PS5 that is, which I did got one)

 

[Loxus]

I don't think PS4 Pro is much more powerful, but its powerful enough to not turn me off playing GoW-R on it (If I can't get a PS5 that is, which I did got one)

I think you should watch this,


and rethink your statement about PS5 not holding up in 2027.

If the base PS4 can run a game like God of War, then PS5 can easily hold up in 2027 is all I'm trying to make you understand.

When it comes to consoles, It's not how powerful the hardware is but how you utilize it.

Both PS5 & XBSX are currently under utilize if we use God of War running on a base PS4 as an example.

 

[SeraphJan]

Ok, I'm not going reply to anyone specifically, I'm little burned out by typing simultaneously to many people.

I'm just going to state my final statement regarding my perspective and move on. I hope everyone have fun gaming, its what video game are for.

I think by saying I prefer to buy a mid gen fresh day one I unconsciously upsets many people, but knowing this, I'm just pro-choice, I'm not against any of your taste or preference.

You all stated difference reason for why you hated a Pro model, some were reasonable, some were exaggerated, but at the end of the day I'm just a consumer, if you wish Sony to not release a Pro model, you should start writing emails, letters, or even sign up for a job, whatever suit you, I am not the one you should be convincing.

At the end of the day, If Sony decide to ever release a Pro model, I will still buy it day one, my preference will not change, but I respect everyone of your decision and wish you good time with your gaming.

For now onward I will not be replying to anyone specifically, its consuming way too much of my time, Wish you guys all luck.

 

[cyberheater]

I'm sticking my neck out but I think some first gen PSVR2 titles will blow PCVR away.
The graphic fidelity is going to be insane.

 

[Madjako]

Im just hoping the RE4 remake VR edition shits on the Facebook edition.

I must confess, I've never played RE4... So, it will be my first RE4 experience.(I have a Quest 2 and can just buy the Facebook Edition and have a go, but I rather not give zuck any more dollars)

I played RE7 in VR on the PS4 pro and that was stunning !!
I just can't imagine RE8 on PS5 !!

 

[Kev Kev]

Me getting hyped for the 2nd generation of VR:

 

[drezz]

Me getting hyped for the 2nd generation of VR:

Hell, its about Time!

 

[reksveks]

https://blog.playstation.com/2022/0...c-environment-including-high-inflation-rates/

Now the price of the PSVR2 will match the console

 

[Spukc]

Kind of concerning for PS5 hardware to keep up the necessary frame rate for smooth VR experience. We might need a PRO model later to fully enjoy PSVR2

Edit: After pages of discussion I'm burned out with this anti-choice narrative. And I will always be pro-choice, if you hate mid gen refresh that much, don't buy it, nobody is forcing you.

There is barely anything to play on the ps5 and
You want a refresh?

 

[mxbison]

https://blog.playstation.com/2022/0...c-environment-including-high-inflation-rates/

Now the price of the PSVR2 will match the console

Damn it, guess that's the final nail in the coffin of my €399 hopes.

 

[Boss Man]

Day 1 baby