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[JoeM86]

Eviolite's a strange scenario though. You lose consistency when you alter the types of Pokemon, which we've had in both Gen 2 and Gen 6, so consistency can be broken. But when you have new evolutions, they usually introduce it by a method unseen before for consistency, so you do have this element of some things being acceptable and some not being, so I feel like evolutionary arguments based on Eviolite could go either way. They could even combine the two, and release a new evolution method and specify Eviolite to not be compatible with evolutions obtained in this manner. That would maintain consistency.

Having new evolutions and Eviolite not being compatible would just cause confusion though.

The only option is to remove Eviolite, but they haven't really removed items since Gen 2 to 3. Gems are still in it and would still work if obtained in the game.

We'll have to see, but Eviolite is at the very least a massive barrier that has to be overcome for cross gen evolutions.

 

[Galava]

Having new evolutions and Eviolite not being compatible would just cause confusion though.

The only option is to remove Eviolite, but they haven't really removed items since Gen 2 to 3. Gems are still in it and would still work if obtained in the game.

We'll have to see, but Eviolite is at the very least a massive barrier that has to be overcome for cross gen evolutions.

The solution would be to create alternate evolution lines and balance those.

 

[blitzwolf215]

uhm...wtf. thats the main reason why I hate the anime, so dumb.

IMO of course.

Whats really dumb is that Ash is using a water type against a Grass/Ice type. Does he seriously not have a fire type to use?

 

[Nightbird]

If Eviolite is really such a problem, then it could be resolved by nerfing it. How about 25% instead of 50?

They could always create scenic items for Pokémon that absolutely need a 50% boost. Just like Light Ball was created for Pikachu

Whats really dumb is that Ash is using a water type against a Grass/Ice type. Does he seriously not have a fire type to use?

His fire type was defeated by that Pokémon

 

[JoeM86]

If Eviolite is really such a problem, then it could be resolved by nerfing it. How about 25% instead of 50?

They could always create scenic items for Pokémon that absolutely need a 50% boost. Just like Light Ball was created for Pikachu

It's not the power behind Eviolite that is the point of contention here.

 

[Nightbird]

It's not the power behind Eviolite that is the point of contention here.

What is it then?

I'm confused.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I don't really see this as an impossible issue people are making it out to be.

 

[Macka]

Having new evolutions and Eviolite not being compatible would just cause confusion though.

I really don't think this would confuse even the youngest of players for very long. I mean, I doubt there are many kids who even know what the Evolite is, and the ones that do would probably be knowledgeable enough to realize that the Pokemon could now evolve and that's why it wouldn't work.

Just add a message when attempting to attach the Evolite to a Pokemon that can evolve - "This will have no effect given the Pokemon can evolve."

Done.

 

[Kyzer]

Having new evolutions and Eviolite not being compatible would just cause confusion though.

The only option is to remove Eviolite, but they haven't really removed items since Gen 2 to 3. Gems are still in it and would still work if obtained in the game.

We'll have to see, but Eviolite is at the very least a massive barrier that has to be overcome for cross gen evolutions.

If there was ever anything that needed to be done and eviolite was the barrier, trust me joe, it wouldn't be a massive barrier. They will keep it intact but if it was ever in the way of something they wanted to do with the game they would drop it/change it in a heartbeat. Eviolite is not a sacred institution.

I dont think eviolite even culled cross gen evolution. I don't see a solid correlation. I think they just didn't have that many in Gen VI, or V either.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I don't understand what's this Eviolite and I've played every mainline Pokemon game lol

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I really don't think this would confuse even the youngest of players for very long. I mean, I doubt there are many kids who even know what the Evolite is, and the ones that do would probably be knowledgeable enough to realize that the Pokemon could now evolve and that's why it wouldn't work.

Just add a message when attempting to attach the Evolite to a Pokemon that can evolve - "This will have no effect given the Pokemon can evolve."

Done.

My feelings as well.

Pokémon was the first video game I ever played. I was eight years old and didn't even know what a video game was. Pokémon, and the Game Boy that housed it, were a unified device no different to me than a remote control car. One of the things I didn't have any concept of was saving. I interpreted "SAVE" in Pokémon Red as "RESCUE" and didn't understand what was happening when I saved the game. For my first week of Pokémon, I didn't save at all, and thought I could only play my game until the battery died. I would leave my Game Boy on, 24/7, so that I wouldn't keep losing my progress.

So I think it's safe to say I was a good example of an easily confused kid. I had no idea what moves like Bide were supposed to do (worsened by the fact that it didn't actually function) and always loaded my Pokémon up with STAB attacks because it made the most logical sense to me as a kid for a water type to have all water attacks. I didn't know what X Attack items did. I didn't know you could map items to Select. I didn't know you could only Fly to towns you had been to and thought it randomly decided where you could go, so I didn't use it, even after I could.

But even I knew that "YOU CAN'T USE THAT HERE!" from a disembodied Professor Oak meant I couldn't ride my bike inside.

If equipping an Eviolite came with a message of whether it worked or not, there would be no issue at all. Who cares about "consistency" like this? Does anybody?

 

[Kyzer]

There is no evidence eviolite has anything to do with them creating more cross gen evolutions. Gen V was all-new and Gen VI was mega-focused. I really don't think it has anything to do with it. Game Freak is not going to decide against an evolution they wanted to create because "well too bad we already created eviolite we can't go back". If they are willing to create mega evolution and make mewtwo garchomp and gyarados stronger, they're not going to stop designing cross gen evolutions because of the power boost of eviolite lol.

Not that items matter much anyways, they're not even compatible with pokebank because they want to be able to change them as needed.

 

[Forkball]

All this alchemy stuff makes me think we still might get some conclusion to the Kalos story.

A Z
Z

 

[Coffinhal]

All this alchemy stuff makes me think we still might get some conclusion to the Kalos story.

A Z
Z

I don't think anybody, especially Gamefreak, cares about the worst story they ever wrote.

Let us forget X/Y

Spoiler

and the waste of France's potential in a Pokémon game.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I don't think anybody, especially Gamefreak, cares about the worst story they ever wrote.

Let us forget X/Y

Spoiler

and the waste of France's potential in a Pokémon game.

I hate X/Y's campaign so much.

 

[JoeM86]

I don't think anybody, especially Gamefreak, cares about the worst story they ever wrote.

Let us forget X/Y

Spoiler

and the waste of France's potential in a Pokémon game.

Oh please. Gen 2 has the worst story. It's barely even a story.

When it comes to story, Gen 1 & 2's is minimal. It barely has any characters in the narrative (Gen 2 doesn't even have a main antagonist) and there's only a couple of instances of it.

X & Y's story is actually solid.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I don't think anybody, especially Gamefreak, cares about the worst story they ever wrote.

Let us forget X/Y

Spoiler

and the waste of France's potential in a Pokémon game.

Who cares about story in a Pokemon game? The Pokemon were great and the music was great. The overall region from the environments were so good and I felt like I was in France.

 

[Macka]

None of the stories are anything special at all. Yes, even the heavily praised Gen V story would be considered B-grade as hell in any other series, but for some reason people go crazy over it in Pokemon.

Campaign of XY was boss, because of the variety of Pokemon and cool environments to explore.

 

[Kyzer]

Oh please. Gen 2 has the worst story. It's barely even a story.

When it comes to story, Gen 1 & 2's is minimal. It barely has any characters in the narrative (Gen 2 doesn't even have a main antagonist) and there's only a couple of instances of it.

X & Y's story is actually solid.

Respectfully disagree, Gen 1s story is much more solid (albeit narrated totally differently) and the substance much more impactful than Gen 6. XY had the worst story, not because of the story itself, but because of its absolutely bland, placeholder presentation. Other than the occasional big budget scene involving AZ, I felt like they were leaving a lot open for a Z version to patch things up, or at least make them more interesting. Gen II was pretty weak but I'd still take it over XY's cookie cutter characterization and Team Flare scenario.

 

[MacGurcules]

I don't understand what's this Eviolite and I've played every mainline Pokemon game lol

What is it then?

I'm confused.

Eviolite is a held item that boosts the defensive stats of a Pokemon that hasn't reached its final evolution.

The conceit that GF has apparently been trying to maintain throughout the years is that new evolutions introduced in later games were always there. You just couldn't meet the requirements in the earlier games. That Eevee you pick up in R/B/Y could always evolve into a Leafeon. There just wasn't a Moss Rock around for you to use. Likewise, they make you use the Moss Rock instead of just a Leaf Stone because the Leaf Stone exists in R/B/Y but Leafeon doesn't.

So an Eviolite example: Right now, Mightyena is at the top of its evolution chain, so Eviolite doesn't work on it. But if they introduce a new evolution next generation, it will start working all of a sudden. Then the continuity police would stop and say, "Wait, if all of these evolutions always existed, why didn't Eviolite always work on Mightyena?"

That's not to say that they couldn't break their own rules. They've just been reluctant to, so far.

 

[BGBW]

But in another thread I was told we are now dealing with multiple timelines so why not just scrap the old rules and claim it's a new timeline where Mightyena has always been able to evolve?

 

[Aveyn Knight]

Continuity is cool, but the introduction of new abilities and new types kind of kills it IMO.

I love (not in a sarcastic way) how the in-game characters remark that the Fairy-type is newly discovered and suddenly Pokemon like Marill and Mawile take no damage from Dragon-type moves.

Unless it's another result of

Spoiler

alternate universes like Mega Evolution in XYORAS versus vanila RSE

.

 

[ColtraineGF]

Anything could happen really - they've been testing the waters with the type table changes and base stat fiddling in G6 with little casual effect, so I expect they'll go farther in G7 in certain areas.

 

[MK_768]

Who cares about story in a Pokemon game? The Pokemon were great and the music was great. The overall region from the environments were so good and I felt like I was in France.

I mean I don't care for story. I think people are just fatigued from the same story being told over and over again. "Evil team wants to use legendary pokemon for world(or galactic) domination."

 

[Galava]

Pokémon games don't need a story, but a feeling of adventure and exploration, the journey. Of course, a story that spans out the entire game is great to keep the mystery and progression, but it shouldn't be the focus. You should have fun travelling around the region, battling leaders...

If they want to include great stories, they should do it just like the episode delta. Free(or paid if they are big enough) post-game DLCs with pokemon movie-like stories.

 

[Hero Prinny]

I like gen 6's story and lore about the war. Gen 2 is also good, easily the best rival in the entire franchise before gamefreak decided to go "from now on you're bffs with your rival"

 

[clemenx]

Lol @ a new Pokemon being the one that gets a super deep connection whatever with Ash.

Sucks to suck, Pikachu.

I've already made peace with the Synchro stuff. It's just another mega evo type.

 

[Village]

Who cares about story in a Pokemon game? The Pokemon were great and the music was great. The overall region from the environments were so good and I felt like I was in France.

I do.

Its one of the reasons gen 5 is the best. Amongst many other things.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Lol @ a new Pokemon being the one that gets a super deep connection whatever with Ash.

Sucks to suck, Pikachu.

I've already made peace with the Synchro stuff. It's just another mega evo type.

I always like to bring context though.

First off sync isn't just about connection. It's also the Pokemon itself. Maybe this Froakie really is just that special like the legendary one thousands of years ago (which eerily enough looks like Ash Greninja). They even made a big deal of Fraokie's rather different attitude on the first episode.

Second I'd argue that Froakie's bond with Ash is different from the other mons. Pikachu? Charizard? They're all the usual "rambunctious Pokemon who needs to realize that the trainer is good/they secretly like the trainer and are just tsundere about it". Froakie however has the mindset of "humans will give me strength" right off the bat, it's why he is picky with trainers and why he is close to Ash.

 

[GoldStarz]

Oh please. Gen 2 has the worst story. It's barely even a story.

When it comes to story, Gen 1 & 2's is minimal. It barely has any characters in the narrative (Gen 2 doesn't even have a main antagonist) and there's only a couple of instances of it.

X & Y's story is actually solid.

Gen I and II don't really have stories. They're basically just a bunch of vignettes that lead up to some sort of small climax against whoever's in charge atm.

X/Y is a solid as lava. There's definitely some substance there, and under the right conditions it could've been legitimately rock-solid, but as it is now, it's just kinda ruddy. X/Y tried to go both ways to

Spoiler

pander

appeal to the Gen I demographic by also having some kind of vignettes connected to a larger story, but they failed because their team was just completely non-threatening and more annoying than interesting or intimidating and they dropped literally all of the story on you at once and tried to force you into emotional investment at the literal last second. X/Y's postgame in the Looker Missions is much better because while it is small scale, it takes the time actually introduce you to everyone and get to know them so you actually do make a connection once things get bad. It's significantly shorter and doesn't have that grand appeal, but it doesn't need to. Honestly, if they had put as much effort into the main game story as they did the Looker Missions, I wouldn't be complaining, but X/Y's story just introduces character after character and they never actually bother to let you get to know any of them outside of their ~quirky personality traits~ and never bothers to actually use them.

 

[Waluigilicious]

Megas are cool and all but it feels like they are taking away from giving us normal evolutions instead I wish they were more for legendaries and 3rd evolutions. Would we have gotten all of those gen 4 evolutions to old pokemon if megas existed?

New pokemon > megas

 

[ArchedThunder]

Oh please. Gen 2 has the worst story. It's barely even a story.

When it comes to story, Gen 1 & 2's is minimal. It barely has any characters in the narrative (Gen 2 doesn't even have a main antagonist) and there's only a couple of instances of it.

X & Y's story is actually solid.

XY's back story is interesting, but the actual plot of XY is very poorly executed.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

There hasn't been a good male design since Gold now.

EDIT: Actually, I tell a lie, Hilbert was decent. But in general, the male protagonist designs have been fairly terrible.

 

[Berordn]

There hasn't been a good male design since Gold now.

EDIT: Actually, I tell a lie, Hilbert was decent. But in general, the male protagonist designs have been fairly terrible.

You're lucky you snuck that edit in when you did because I was about to call you out on Hilbert.

I disagree though, I think the male designs have been at least equal to the female designs in every generation. Even B2/W2. I like that crazy hair.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Gen I and II don't really have stories. They're basically just a bunch of vignettes that lead up to some sort of small climax against whoever's in charge atm.

X/Y is a solid as lava. There's definitely some substance there, and under the right conditions it could've been legitimately rock-solid, but as it is now, it's just kinda ruddy. X/Y tried to go both ways to

Spoiler

pander

appeal to the Gen I demographic by also having some kind of vignettes connected to a larger story, but they failed because their team was just completely non-threatening and more annoying than interesting or intimidating and they dropped literally all of the story on you at once and tried to force you into emotional investment at the literal last second. X/Y's postgame in the Looker Missions is much better because while it is small scale, it takes the time actually introduce you to everyone and get to know them so you actually do make a connection once things get bad. It's significantly shorter and doesn't have that grand appeal, but it doesn't need to. Honestly, if they had put as much effort into the main game story as they did the Looker Missions, I wouldn't be complaining, but X/Y's story just introduces character after character and they never actually bother to let you get to know any of them outside of their ~quirky personality traits~ and never bothers to actually use them.

I remember being really disappointed at how underwhelming the Flare admins were.

 

[Neoleo2143]

XY had potential, which is mainly why I'm disappointed by it. It tried to do too much and faltered for it. N, Bianca and Cheren ended up a developed characters who were finally figuring out what they wanted to do at the end of B/W.

Like many things in games, I think some foreshadowing and more exposition and character moments would have done a good thing if they were trying to make an interesting story.

It's pretty likely that Sun and Moon's story is going to pare back from XY and it'll likely be all the better for it.

 

[Forkball]

XY's story was a bit uh, out there, but at least it wasn't as self-important and incoherent as BW's. They tried to do something different, but it ended up so bloated and pointless. Natural Harmonia Gropius is one of the strangest characters in the series.

I like that Gen II doesn't have a huge antagonist. Fighting the remnants of Team Rocket is interesting in retrospect. In the originals you never really knew what happened to Giovanni. They were basically making their last stand. GSC focuses more on the Johto region as a whole and develops the legendaries in a way where you're excited to see them instead of confused.

 

[Nanashrew]

Where X&Y faltered for me is that they could have used Malva in more important ways as a team flare member, holocast reporter and elite four member. Since it was clear they were following much of the original Pokemon games in terms of story, they didn't put any meaning behind her despite those things. When you look at Giovanni, he's a mob boss under the guise of a gym leader. It's super simple and works super well. They could have made Malva like that but as an elite four member. Or just make her intelligence since she's also a reporter and whatever news comes her way she could have thrown some off the trail while providing information going on in the world to team flare. Make her the Fox news of Kalos.

I had forgotten she even was a flare member because she was so poorly written and integrated into the story.

 

[ajim]

Megas are cool and all but it feels like they are taking away from giving us normal evolutions instead I wish they were more for legendaries and 3rd evolutions. Would we have gotten all of those gen 4 evolutions to old pokemon if megas existed?

New pokemon > megas

That's my feel too. Not a fan of megas and I don't even feel cool or they're interesting using them whilst battling and I often avoid doing so.

Give me dem evolutions baby

 

[ilium]

My knowledge on Hawaiian mythology is limited, but Solgaleo seems in part inspired by Māui, a hawaiian trickster deity and sun god, who among other feats, restrained the sun so that it lasts longer during the summer months and also slayed a giant bat. His mother is Hina, goddess of the moon. Since there are no lions on Hawaii I assume the lion symbolism is borrowed from various mythologies from around the world. (Sekhmet and Shamash for example) Bats are often associated with the underworld and death, but I'm not sure if or how this will play a role. The Bat as a symbol for the nocturnal is obvious of course.
What also seems clear is which roles both Pokemon will play within the game, since mythologies throughout history attempted to explain natural phenomena like sun rise and sun set with mystical figures, but I'm sure someone figured that out already. (Haven't read the whole thread)

Also, good work on the connections to alchemy, interesting read for sure.

 

[Nanashrew]

My knowledge on Hawaiian mythology is limited, but Solgaleo seems in part inspired by Māui, a hawaiian trickster deity and sun god, who among other feats, restrained the sun so that it lasts longer during the summer months and also slayed a giant bat. His mother is Hina, goddess of the moon. Since there are no lions on Hawaii I assume the lion symbolism is borrowed from various mythologies from around the world. (Sekhmet and Shamash for example) Bats are often associated with the underworld and death, but I'm not sure if or how this will play a role. The Bat as a symbol for the nocturnal is obvious of course.
What also seems clear is which roles both Pokemon will play within the game, since mythologies throughout history attempted to explain natural phenomena like sun rise and sun set with mystical figures, but I'm sure someone figured that out already. (Haven't read the whole thread)

Also, good work on the connections to alchemy, interesting read for sure.

This sounds better than my theory. I just kinda clinged to something I recognized cause I had seen the imagery before of a lion trying to devour the sun. But your theory makes way more sense. I was trying hard to find some connection of a lion and a bat to Hawaiian mythology all day yesterday but google wasn't turning up any results for me.

As for the lion symbolism though, I did at least find an old Oahu legend called "courching lion." I haven't found much on it but it was supposedly a demigod forced to the ground and as it struggled to get back up, he became stone and one with the mountain. When you look up at that mountain now to this day, It looks like there is a crouching lion sitting atop it.

 

[Theorymon]

For the whole Eviolite thing: I'd actually like for Gamefreak to make some cross evos again BECAUSE of Eviloite! For those of you who ladder on Battle Spot, you'll notice that Porygon2 is a big part of Battle Spot Singles, since Eviolite lets it check some serious threats such as Aegislash and Mega Salamence. You also see Porygon2 a bit rarely in doubles and triples to set up Trick Room, and its a common Trick Roomer in Rotations too.

Even beyond Porygon2, you got some high rated players on Battle Spot Singles actually using Eviolite Piloswine because its bulkier than Mamoswine (no joke, Mega Lucario Close Combat actually fails to OHKO Eviolite Piloswine ). And in Battle Spot Doubles and especially Triples, you have Eviolite Clefairy which makes great use of Friend Guard. Hell, some people in triples use Eviolite Friend Guard Jigglypuff as a Perish Songer on perish trap teams!

I think if Gamefreak is smart about which Pokemon evolve, it could be really great because it'd be like a two for one deal: A new Pokemon, and a new defensive twist on an old Pokemon that probably wasn't very good originally! I doubt that many people care about continuity in Pokemon either, so I'd be really surprised if Gamefreak cared THAT much abut upseting people that the "canon" has been broken because Miltank or whatever got an evolution.

 

[TheGreatLugia]

I haven't been watching the anime but from what I've read, Ash-Greninja sounds a bit similar to Full Synchro in Mega Man Battle Network:

Full Synchro(nization) is a state where NetNavi and NetOp become one to improve focus and it puts the NetOp into direct contact with their NetNavi, transmitting effects on the NetNavi back to the NetOp. So, a high level of synchronization should complete the circuit enabling transmission of a NetOp's very will to their NetNavi, which greatly raises a NetNavi's fighting capabilities. Full Synchro fuses the mind of NetNavi and NetOp into one consciousness, getting rid of the delay between command and reaction, which can make a big difference between life and death during a battle.

There are certainly differences, but does the concept line up with this at all?

 

[Exterminieren]

This is a purely personal thing, I realise, but I've never much liked cross-gen evolutions, and actively prefer Megas to them.

Megas can at least be given to Pokémon who wouldn't be able to get an evolution, and I like the way that the best Mega designs can expand upon the themes of a design without radically changing them like evolutions do. I will always try and use a team made up entirely of Pokémon new to the franchise, so it doesn't make any difference to me, and I find Megas altogether more interesting than cross-gen evolutions.

 

[ilium]

This sounds better than my theory. I just kinda clinged to something I recognized cause I had seen the imagery before of a lion trying to devour the sun. But your theory makes way more sense. I was trying hard to find some connection of a lion and a bat to Hawaiian mythology all day yesterday but google wasn't turning up any results for me.

As for the lion symbolism though, I did at least find an old Oahu legend called "courching lion." I haven't found much on it but it was supposedly a demigod forced to the ground and as it struggled to get back up, he became stone and one with the mountain. When you look up at that mountain now to this day, It looks like there is a crouching lion sitting atop it.

I wouldn't be so quick to disregard your alchemy theory just yet. Especially in light of Solgaleo's Steel typing, which I initially connected to stars fusing iron (and then heavier metals) in their cores at some point, which basically marks their end, because iron absorbs energy and in turn messes up the equilibrium between forces. But steel is weak to fire within the Pokemon universe, so there might be more to it than that. But a star is technically not comprised of fire but plasma iirc.

The crouching lion myth is extremely interesting to me, because there have never been lions on Hawaii so I wonder where the connection with a lion initially came from. However, the myth is also known as crouching beast or crouching dog, so the lion reference could have been added much later. Then again, polynesian sailors are famous for being well traveled, so who knows how far some of them have gone.

Something else I'd like to note is that Māui slayed an eight-eyed bat:

A colleague of mine also recommended the Hawaiian Legends Index, if someone wants to dig in...

 

[Joqu]

My knowledge on Hawaiian mythology is limited, but Solgaleo seems in part inspired by Māui, a hawaiian trickster deity and sun god, who among other feats, restrained the sun so that it lasts longer during the summer months and also slayed a giant bat. His mother is Hina, goddess of the moon. Since there are no lions on Hawaii I assume the lion symbolism is borrowed from various mythologies from around the world. (Sekhmet and Shamash for example) Bats are often associated with the underworld and death, but I'm not sure if or how this will play a role. The Bat as a symbol for the nocturnal is obvious of course.
What also seems clear is which roles both Pokemon will play within the game, since mythologies throughout history attempted to explain natural phenomena like sun rise and sun set with mystical figures, but I'm sure someone figured that out already. (Haven't read the whole thread)

Also, good work on the connections to alchemy, interesting read for sure.

This sounds better than my theory. I just kinda clinged to something I recognized cause I had seen the imagery before of a lion trying to devour the sun. But your theory makes way more sense. I was trying hard to find some connection of a lion and a bat to Hawaiian mythology all day yesterday but google wasn't turning up any results for me.

As for the lion symbolism though, I did at least find an old Oahu legend called "courching lion." I haven't found much on it but it was supposedly a demigod forced to the ground and as it struggled to get back up, he became stone and one with the mountain. When you look up at that mountain now to this day, It looks like there is a crouching lion sitting atop it.

I wouldn't be so quick to disregard your alchemy theory just yet. Especially in light of Solgaleo's Steel typing, which I initially connected to stars fusing iron (and then heavier metals) in their cores at some point, which basically marks their end, because iron absorbs energy and in turn messes up the equilibrium between forces. But steel is weak to fire within the Pokemon universe, so there might be more to it than that. But a star is technically not comprised of fire but plasma iirc.

The crouching lion myth is extremely interesting to me, because there have never been lions on Hawaii so I wonder where the connection with a lion initially came from. However, the myth is also known as crouching beast or crouching dog, so the lion reference could have been added much later. Then again, polynesian sailors are famous for being well traveled, so who knows how far some of them have gone.

Something else I'd like to note is that Māui slayed an eight-eyed bat:

A colleague of mine also recommended the Hawaiian Legends Index, if someone wants to dig in...

VERY good stuff. It being an eight-eyed bat basically seals the deal to me, that's gotta be an inspiration. Nice site you shared there too, I've been having a lot of trouble finding good info on Hawaiian legends.

But yeah, Nanashrew, I wouldn't dismiss the alchemy theory yet either. Past legendaries have often been an amalgamation of all kinds of influences, I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case with these ones too. The steel type / gold and silver relation are a good fit, and although it's not nearly as substantiated I rather like how we were able to link the heart / brain stuff to their designs too.

As for the celestial stuff I was looking into I'm afraid I haven't found much, hopefully someone more well-versed will be able to dig some good info up.

The only thing I could find was that Antares AKA Alpha Scorpii, the brightest star in the Scorpius constellation, has apparently been said to signify a bat, although that does appear to be a somewhat obscure interpretation.

Regulus AKA Alpha Leonis, the brightest star in the Leo constellation, obviously has plenty of lion related associations but that's not exactly a surprise.

 

[Subtervotion]

So Solgaleo and Lunala's abilities are pretty underwelming in the sense that the pokemon company is saying 'a new Ability that no previous Pokémon has had'. But it's just Clear Body and Multiscale. Kind of silly.

As long as the starters get good hidden abilities I'll be happy.

 

[Pokemaniac]

So Solgaleo and Lunala's abilities are pretty underwelming in the sense that the pokemon company is saying 'a new Ability that no previous Pokémon has had'. But it's just Clear Body and Multiscale. Kind of silly.

As long as the starters get good hidden abilities I'll be happy.

It's at least a bit better than Reshiram and Zekrom having two differently named copies of Mold Breaker.

 

[GoldStarz]

It's at least a bit better than Reshiram and Zekrom having two differently named copies of Mold Breaker.

Except the only Mons that had that ability prior to Gen V were the Cranidos line and Pinsir, while Clear Body is owned by several mons even some that aren't particularly strong or special. Heck, 7 of the Pokemon who have the ability have metal bodies themselves so it makes no sense why Solgaleo shouldn't have just been given Clear Body outside of trying to make it look special. Multiscale though, yeah that's something special given how only a Pseudo Legend and actual legend have those abilities.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I haven't been watching the anime but from what I've read, Ash-Greninja sounds a bit similar to Full Synchro in Mega Man Battle Network:

There are certainly differences, but does the concept line up with this at all?

Yep.

The anime pretty much described it like that.